Kaaba at Jerusalem and not at Mecca
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Peace Bro warner
Like you, I never came across an ayat where the Prophet Muhammed was admonished for rejecting anything Allah was revealing to Him, not even arguing about any... There was a few cases where Allah admonished him on some small mistakes, but they were nothing to do with Aqida issues...
That being said, I tend to believe that "Don't you have sense?" is a rhetorical question to those passing by the area described (which include the Prophet and people of his community) emphasising the importance of pondering the fate of those who came before them, and who were destroyed for their disbeliefs.
Clearly it cannot be the whole of Mankind, because it addresses those who pass by the vicinity of that area, which are not all of Mankind!
Salam -
Peace Warner,
I went through most of the verses the phrase is used but did not come across a situation in which is God is asking His messenger "Dont you understand or dont you have sense".
Why are you looking for a situation where God tells His prophet
dont you have sence?. I have not seen such a situation and wonder what value it would have to your research. -
Peace Brother Layth
My point is, that this verse is not addressed to the Prophet since God never asks any of His prophets ?Don?t you have sense?? Therefore you can not use this verse as strong evidence to assume that Muhammad lived in Jerusalem and morning and evening, on his way to work and back, Muhammad was passing by the place where People of Lot met their end. This verse tells that the place in which the People of Lot met their end is very apparent to see for anyone passing by.
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Salaam Layth
You yourself are a Moslem, but when exactly would you say you became a Moslem? Please don?t get me wrong, because this is not meant to be a personal question at all, and I only ask it because it is absolutely relevant to the point in question. Would you say that you became a Moslem after a certain level of understanding? Or would you call yourself Moslem from birth onwards?
My point is that there are Moslems out there, and have been always. Despite the externals of Islam having all gone wrong, and comprehensively wrong (meaning that NO ONE prayed in the right direction, and NO ONE performed the Hajj, only to mention two aspects), there were still Moslems. Or would you say there were no Moslems? No, I don?t think you would. Prophet Noah and his immediate kin were Moslems, were saved from the flood because of this, and the new beginning of humankind stemmed from them. Whatever truth be come to derive from the Quran, if it means that we cannot find a single Moslem who carries on the truth, but instead it all has to come from our thinking heads and the scripture, then that is a problem. If we indeed come to the truth of the Quran, then the truth will surely help to identify who the true Moslem is, and will not merely be anticipating a new Moslem community from scratch. Who is Moslem? Isn?t that the object of our search? What a Moslem should be? If we?re only left with this speculation?
Fabian
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Salam warner
Respectfully, I slightly disagree with part of your interpretation.
The verse in question addresses the community of Mohammed to whom he was preaching, how can he be preaching to them if he is not living with them?
However it is not enough evidence to prove that he was born in the area of Jerusalem.
And as Ahmed said, they might have been travellers from where Mohammed was born, and the majority at present accept it was Mecca.
I am very curious to know where he actually was just before he emigrated to Medinah/Yathrib...
Peace -
Peace
Even what I said does not hold water.
The way is was written is generalised to the community to whom Mohammed is preaching. The passing by the ruins by day and by night makes it a regular common occurence. This cannot happen occasionally for travellers, or better still the whole of Muhammed's community. They had to live by Jerusalem, it is inescapable, or better still travel for pilgrimage to Jerusalem!!!!... -
Peace Fabian,
You yourself are a Moslem, but when exactly would you say you became a Moslem? Please don?t get me wrong, because this is not meant to be a personal question at all, and I only ask it because it is absolutely relevant to the point in question. Would you say that you became a Moslem after a certain level of understanding? Or would you call yourself Moslem from birth onwards?
I became a Muslim in 1997 when I submitted myself to God free of sectarian idols.
My point is that there are Moslems out there, and have been always. Despite the externals of Islam having all gone wrong, and comprehensively wrong (meaning that NO ONE prayed in the right direction, and NO ONE performed the Hajj, only to mention two aspects), there were still Moslems. Or would you say there were no Moslems? No, I don?t think you would. Prophet Noah and his immediate kin were Moslems, were saved from the flood because of this, and the new beginning of humankind stemmed from them. Whatever truth be come to derive from the Quran, if it means that we cannot find a single Moslem who carries on the truth, but instead it all has to come from our thinking heads and the scripture, then that is a problem. If we indeed come to the truth of the Quran, then the truth will surely help to identify who the true Moslem is, and will not merely be anticipating a new Moslem community from scratch. Who is Moslem? Isn?t that the object of our search? What a Moslem should be? If we?re only left with this speculation?
I am not with you on this line of thinking...A Muslim has been defined as any person who willingly submits himself/herself to the Lord of the words, free of idolatry. A Mumin is a higher rank and is a person who devotes his/her life, wealth and time to the service of the Lord.
We are discussing neither Muslim nor Mumin, but rather we are discussing the meanings found in the Scripture which has survived all those people who have come before us...
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Peace be upon you
Peace Layth
I quote below part of your article ?Where was Mohammed? (Part 5)? in the main board,
?The entire ?Abraham married his slave girl Hajar and then left her in the wilderness with Ismail based on the wishes of his wife Sarah? not only has no basis whatsoever in the Book of God, but also conflict greatly with the character of a Prophet who is devoted to God and who would never be pressured by any human into abandoning or harming another person(s). As far as we can ascertain, Abraham was married to one woman, the same woman who gave him Ismail and then, many years later, Isaac. We can also ascertain that Abraham lived near the area of the Temple (Jerusalem) and therefore would not have traveled many thousands of kilometers to carry out such an act of inhumanity.?
http//www.freeminds.org/articles/history/moh5.htm
The Quran says,
1439
Yusuf Ali "Praise be to Allah who hath granted unto me in old age Ismail and Isaac for truly my Lord is He the Hearer of Prayer!
Transliteration Al hamdu lilla_hil lazi wahaba li 'alal kibari isma_'ila wa isha_q(a), inna rabbi lasami'ud du'a_'(i).
Isn?t this verse contrary to your above assumption.
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Peace,
The Quran says,
1439 Yusuf Ali "Praise be to Allah who hath granted unto me in old age Ismail and Isaac for truly my Lord is He the Hearer of Prayer!
Transliteration Al hamdu lilla_hil lazi wahaba li 'alal kibari isma_'ila wa isha_q(a), inna rabbi lasami'ud du'a_'(i).
Isn?t this verse contrary to your above assumption.
Here is the evidence that Ismail and Isaac were indeed many years apart
"And his wife was standing, so she laughed when We gave her good news of Isaac, and after Isaac, Jacob. She said
O my!, how can I give birth while I am an old woman, and here is my husband an old man? This is indeed a strange thing!They said `Do you wonder at the decree of God? God?s Mercy and Blessings are upon you O people of the Sanctuary. He is Praiseworthy, Glorious." (1171-73) -
5 95
Yusuf Ali O ye who believe! kill not game while in the Sacred Precincts or in pilgrim garb. If any of you doth so intentionally the compensation is an offering brought to the Ka'ba of a domestic animal equivalent to the one he killed as adjudged by two just men among you; or by way of atonement the feeding of the indigent; or its equivalent in fasts that he may taste of the penalty of his deed. Allah forgives what is past for repetition Allah will exact from him the penalty for Allah is Exalted and Lord of Retribution.
Pickthall O ye who believe! Kill no wild game while ye are on the pilgrimage. Whoso of you killeth it of set purpose he shall pay its forfeit in the equivalent of that which he hath killed, of domestic animals, the judge to be two men among you known for justice; (the forfeit) to be brought as an offering to the Ka'bah; or, for expiation, he shall feed poor persons, or the equivalent thereof in fasting, that he may taste the evil consequences of his deed. Allah forgiveth whatever (of this kind) may have happened in the past, but whoso relapseth, Allah will take retribution from him. Allah is Mighty, Able to Requite (the wrong).
As far as I know the offering/sacrifice is not brought to the Ka?bah and it does not reach the Ka?bah in Mecca ( I guess the sacrifice is done in Mina) , but the sacrifice (Korbanot) was done in the Temple mount , Jerusalem from the ancient times.
Can anyone give any possible explanations ?
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22 33
Yusuf Ali In them ye have benefits for a term appointed in the end their place of sacrifice is near the Ancient House.
Pickthall Therein are benefits for you for an appointed term; and afterward they are brought for sacrifice unto the ancient House.
Transliteration Lakum fiha_ mana_fi'u ila_ ajalim musam man sum ma mahil luha_ ilal baitil 'atiq
This verse suggests that the sacrifice is near the Ancient House which is normally believed to be the Ka?bah. But like I said previously, the sacrifice actually does not reach and does not take place at the ka?bah in Mecca during present day hajj.
Any explanations ?
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O ye who believe! kill not game while in the Sacred Precincts or in pilgrim garb.
I don't agree with this translation of the verse {595}. I believe here it's talking about prohibiting the hunting of wild land animals during the 4 restructed months. It has nothing to do with the pilgrimage.
The verse directly after it {596} makes it clear.
595
596Here it's saying that it's OK to catch and eat fish during "ihram" (ie the 4 restricted months ), but NOT OK to hunt land mammals.
What does this have to do with pilgrimage?? ???
I believe that God has placed a restriction on the hunting of land mamals during these 4 months. Also, these 4 months must come at a fixed time ( season ) every year, and not shift back 11 days eac year as they do now.
But the Muslims during the dark ages ( Ummayyad period and UNTIL NOW ) , due to their ignorance, have completely ignored this truth.
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Peace be upon you
Peace Pazuzu
The verse 596 says ?game? referring to hunting, so I guess there is no problem in the translation.
The restriction to hunt is only in the sacred precincts during the sacred/forbidden 4 months which is the period of the pilgrimage according to what I understood from the Quraan.
I guess the restriction on hunting during this period can be because of the seasons, like you suggested (and I have seen some articles referring to mating habits of animals during the seasons) and also maybe to control the large number of pilgrims from hunting in the sacred vicinity and thereby affecting the livelihood of the people living in the area.
About the fishing, did you notice the contradiction in allowing fishing during the sacred months whereas it was supposed to be banned on Sabbath for Jews. I wish people give more thought to Aymans article on Companions of Sabbath.
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The restriction to hunt is only in the sacred precincts during the sacred/forbidden 4 months which is the period of the pilgrimage according to what I understood from the Quraan
Why should the restriction be only in the sacred precints? It should be a general restriction , to be obeyed EVERYWHERE.
Also, verse 596 is saying that it's OK to catch and eat fish during "ihram"..
Is there a sea or a large body of water anywhere near the "sacred precit" for this verse to make sense??Marine animals don't usualy have a fixed hybernating/mating season yearly as land mamals do. This is why there is no restriction on catching and eating them.
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Peace be upon you
Brother,
5 2
Yusuf Ali O ye who believe! violate not the sanctity of the Symbols of Allah nor of the Sacred Month nor of the animals brought for sacrifice nor the garlands that mark out such animals nor the people resorting to the Sacred House seeking of the bounty and good pleasure of their Lord. But when ye are clear of the Sacred Precincts and of pilgrim garb ye may hunt and let not the hatred of some people in (once) shutting you out of the Sacred Mosque lead you to transgression (and hostility on your part). Help ye one another in righteousness and piety but help ye not one another in sin and rancor fear Allah for Allah is strict in punishment.
I guess the verse is quite clear on the hunting restriction outside the sacred area. Maybe the main reason for restriction for hunting in the sanctuary is if large number of pilgrims are allowed to hunt during pilgrimage they might destroy the flora and the fauna of the area on which the people of the vicinity depend for their livelihood and also may be like you said may coincide with the seasons and life patterns of animals.
I believe you are correct on the non restrictions on fishing during Pilgrimage or otherwise.
? There is enough fish in the sea.?Although I can not see much connection with fishing and Mecca (I guess the red sea is 50 miles) but the Holy Land comprising of Jerusalem is quite close to Mediterranean Sea (35miles) and fishing is quite common in those areas. (I do not have strong evidence on rivers in this area though)
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Peace be upon you
An analysis of the related verses on the subject didn?t make sense to me to accept that Ka?abah, Sanctuary, Makkah, Bakkah, Sacred precincts, Sacred Mosque, Temple/Mosque , House , My house, House of Allah , Sacred house , Ancient house and Valley without cultivation all referring to the one and the same place. Also Makkah and Bakka can not be names of the same place for obvious reasons. I guess the Quraan explains two places. Mecca and Jerusalem.
Also the Quraan does not say Ka?abah (Ka?abah does not mean cube. See Note below) and the Masjidul Haram/Sacred Mosque are the same place. Neither does it say Baiti/Baitillah (My House/House of Allah) is the Cube shaped structure in Mecca.
Note?
However, the meaning of ?cube? associated to this word has no basis in the Scripture itself nor even to the Arabic language still in use today (the word for cube is mu?ka?ab, not kaaba or kaab).The word ?Kaab/Kaaba? are associated in Arabic to any feature that is protruding, such as the bones to the side of the ankles ??
source http//www.free-minds.org/articles/history/moh2.htm
I guess ?sanctuary? is a better translation of Baitillah than ?House of Allah?. Sacred Precincts/Sanctuary (Baitil Haram/ Baitillah ) seems to be referring to the region of Jerusalem (the city of peace, possibly the region about which Abraham prayed to Allah in 1435 to make it a secure region/city ) . If the above is the case it will automatically suggest that the Hajj/Pilgrimage is to Jerusalem and also that the Ka?abah is the rock out cropping in the temple mount where the ?Dome of The Rock? now stands and in which sacrifice/offering has been taking place through out ancient times.
But the Sacred Mosque (Masjidul Haram) can be very well referring to the mosque in Mecca which is the focal point mentioned in the Quraan. I guess we have mixed up the Qiblah/Focal point and the Pilgrim point. The Masjidul Haram in Mecca has been a temple important for Arabs even before Islam and there was no temple/mosque standing in Jerusalem in the area in which both the mosque known as Masjidul Aqsa and Dome of the Rock now stands at the time the Quraan was reveled. These two mosques were built after the Prophet.
Also from what I observed there seems to be no verse connecting the Ka?abah and the Qibla (focal point) and the Quraan simply says the focal point is towards Masjidul Haram (Mosque in Mecca) which to an Arab at that time was the most sacred temple according to information below.
Note
Bibliotheca Historica, a history by the Greek historian Diodorus Siculus, makes several possible references to the Kaaba. Edward Gibbon quotes Diodorus in The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire
The genuine antiquity of Caaba ascends beyond the Christian era in describing the coast of the Red sea the Greek historian Diodorus has remarked, between the Thamudites and the Sabeans, a famous temple, whose superior sanctity was revered by all the Arabians; the linen of silken veil, which is annually renewed by the Turkish emperor, was first offered by the Homerites, who reigned seven hundred years before the time of Mohammad.
And a temple has been set-up there, which is very holy and exceedingly revered by all Arabians.http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mecca
Edward Gibbon writes about the Ka'bah and its existence before the Christian era in his book
..... of blind mythology of barbarians - of the local deities, of the stars, the air, and the earth, of their sex or titles, their attributes or subordination. Each tribe, each family, each independent warrier, created and changed the rites and the object of this fantastic worship; but the nation, in every age, has bowed to the religion as well as to the language of Mecca. The genuine antiquity of Caaba ascends beyond the Christian era in describing the coast of the Red sea the Greek historian Diodorus has remarked, between the Thamudites and the Sabeans, a famous temple, whose superior sanctity was revered by all the Arabians; the linen of silken veil, which is annually renewed by the Turkish emperor, was first offered by the Homerites, who reigned seven hundred years before the time of Mohammad.
Diodorus Siculus was a Greek historian of 1st century BC who wrote Bibliotheca Historica, a book describing various parts of the discovered world. The following lines are the English translation of Greek quoted by Gibbon from the book of Diodorus Siculus (Diodorus of Sicily) describing the 'temple' considered to be the the holiest in the whole of Arabia.
And a temple has been set-up there, which is very holy and exceedingly revered by all Arabians.It is interesting to know that Claudius Ptolemy of Alexandria, mathematician and astronomer, flourishing about a century after Pliny, undertook to make an atlas of the habitable world. He was not a descriptive geographer, and his book was intended to be no more than a commentary on his maps. He enumerated some hundred and fourteen cities or villages in Arabia Felix.
For example, Dumaetha, placed by Ptolemy just outside the northern boundary of Arabia Felix, must be the mediaeval Arabian Daumet, which is today the chief village of the great oasis of Jauf. Hejr, famous in the "times of ignorance" as the seat of a kingdom, and now Medayin Salih, is Ptolemy's Egra. His Thaim is Teima, now known for its inscriptions to have had temples and some sort of civilization as far back as 500 BC. It is the Tema of Job. In Lathrippa, placed inland from Iambia (Yambo), we recognize the Iathrippa of Stephan of Byzantium, the Yathrib of the early Arab traditions, now honoured as El Medina, the City of Cities.
Apart from this a place called Macoraba is also shown which is identified as Mecca (please refer to the map facing page 17 of reference ). G E von Grunebaum says
Mecca is mentioned by Ptolemy, and the name he gives it allows us to identify it as a South Arabian foundation created around a sanctuary.http//www.submission.org/hajj/kaaba.html
Further on this ,
Based on the above Masjidul Haram is more plausible for the Arabs at that time to mean the Sacred Mosque in Mecca since it was supposed to be the most sacred temple for the Arabs even before Islam. The verses below ? a focal point which will please you? and ? a similar favour?a messesneger of your own? maybe pointing to something the Arab prophet and the Arabs at that time can identify with.
2144 ? We see the turning of thy face (for guidance) to the heavens; now shall We turn thee to a Qiblah that shall please thee .Turn then thy face in the direction of the Sacred Mosque; ?????..?
2151? A similar (favor have ye already received) in that We have sent among you an Apostle of your own rehearsing to you Our signs??????..?
Further ,
Note
?The Persians (under Khosrau) made several military victories against Roman forces (under Heraclius) and with the help of the Jews , Persians took Jerusalem in 614 (damaging the Church of the Holy Sepulchre and capturing the Holy Cross in the process).But Heraclius rebuilt his army by 621 and from theron with continuous militray gains against the Persians the Roman forces defeated the Persians at the Battle of Nineveh in 627. In 630, Heraclius reached the height of his power, marching barefoot as a pious Christian pilgrim into Jerusalem and restoring the True Cross to the Church of the Holy Sepulchre.? ( Source wikipedia )
While the above was taking place in Persia and Byzantium , Muhammed was spreading Gods message in Arabia. Possibly up to 627 (or maybe 630) there was no cross erected in Jerusalem since it was under the Persians , and the Jews were allowed to carry on their religious services and offerings , but after the Roman victory ( under Heraclius) the cross was erected, possibly making it an unsuitable focal point for muslims. This may be an explanation to the change of Qiblah /focal point.
Also,
I pointed out in 2 earlier posts although the offering is mentioned in 2 verses either to be ?near the ancient house/ancient sanctuary? or ?offered to the Ka?abah? the sacrifice/offering can not and does not take place at Mecca in modern day Hajj/pilgimage.
Also I did not find any verse directly connecting the Hajj/pilgrimage to the Sacred Mosque as a duty mankind owes to Allah. Although it might be not wrong to visit and pray in the Sacred Mosque.
This is my analysis on the subject, although it can be a controversial analysis I have taken these points from my understanding of the Quraan. But I am open for better analysis and an explanation by anyone using the Quraan.
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Peace warner
So from your analysis what you are concluding is that- Jerusalem is the place where pilgrimage and offerings are to be done.
- The focal point for prayer is Mecca...
Very interesting... I read your post, it seems cohesive.
Layth, any comment?
Salam
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Peace warner
So from your analysis what you are concluding is that- Jerusalem is the place where pilgrimage and offerings are to be done.
- The focal point for prayer is Mecca...
Very interesting... I read your post, it seems cohesive.
Layth, any comment?
Salam
Hey mate
I would like to remind you that we as muslims should try to do hajj to Jerusalem as the prophet told us, i.e. for Jerusalem of being a place to do Hajj does not contradict anything, I can show the hadith of the prophet regarding this, the bottom line is this, Al Masjid Al Haram was built in uncultivated valley, not a cultivated hill
Salam
