Kaaba at Jerusalem and not at Mecca
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Peace Noble,
No, my argument to justify that Al Masjid Al Aqsa was not on earth seems to have been flawed (because Allah can raise the dead, and that was done on earth by Jesus, and Al Masjid Al Aqsa (as Bytel) in Jerusalem could have been refurbished by Allah just for the occasion)...
Anyways I am still unsure to be honest with you...
However what Ahmed put together makes a plausible strory, with Abraham, Ismael and Isaac and what have you...
Allah knows bestIndeed God can raise the dead as and when He pleases...However, would you not consider that such a special event (the raising of all the prophets) would warrent mention in the book of God? After all, God tells us about this one man He resurected because he doubted God, or the children of israel who were put to death then resurected as a sign from God...Yeyt, no mention of any of the prophets being resurected?
We might as well accept the story of the Anti-Christ (who is also not mentioned in the Quran, and who appears in the same books which gave us the story of the prophet leading the prayers for other prophets) who has super powers and will come to rule the earth while the only one who will stop him is the Mehdi who is then joined by Jesus while smashing the cross and killing the pigs (sounds more like a Geroge Lucas Star Wars sequal than the system of God!).
As for Ahmad`s story about Abraham and Isaac and Jacob...No offence, but that is a fabricated history of ever there was one (which is why he resorted to outside texts to make it hold together).
The
Masjid Aqsabuilding has been around since the end of the 7th century when it was constructed by the Muslim khalifa to commemorate the journey the prophet took which they believed was from the location of the temple mount. In-fact, the common beliefe is that Mohammed ascended from the Dome of the Rock.This simple fact can be confirmed by reading-up on the archeological history of the location in Jerusalm as well the recorded facts that no structure existed on that spot prior to the construction in the late 7th century. As for the Dome of the Rock, we know that the rock was always there for centuries as it is an outcropping from the mount itself, as for the structure itself, it was most recently re-built in the late 6th century by AbdulMalik (I say re-built because there are infrared pictures of the temple mount that show an older foundation beneath the dome pointing to an older presence).
Therefore, the Aqsa mosque is a recent addition which later got added to the story of the prophet and became a replacement to the true meaning of furthest mosque (though it is still interesting to note that the muslims hold on to the fact that the prophet ascended to heaven - while they have added the
miraajpart to spice things up abd make the prophet into a super prophet who leads the others in salat). -
Salam Ahmed,
Actually, this is not what I said it was what others said, I agree with it or I should say that there is nothing that contradict it. From the moment the miracle of Israa started I can expect anything to happen during that time, however what was said was not really about Allah but was about the prophet and was said by himself and transferred to us over the years and years as mere history records or at least this is how I consider it.
I will tell you how this contradicts what God has taught us...
God has taught us that no human being is immortal (i..e all have died)
"And We did not give immortality to any human being that came before you. If you are going to die, would they be immortal?" (2134)
This means that for the story you rleate to have taken place, the prophets would have been resurected from the dead. While this is possible for God to do, it would be such a miracle that surely its mention would take place in the Quran (God speaks of resurecting a man who doubted Him, the children of Israel who rebelled and were struck down) yet, God never mentions all His prophets being resurected at all for this miracle and we are left with the words of Bukhari & Abu Huraira to make a case for such an important event!
What I?m trying to say is this, I look at it in a simple manner not a complicated manner, I really careless if the prophet lead prayer with other prophets for real or metaphorically or even never happened at all, I know for sure that the journey from the two mosques happened because this is what the Quran told us exacly
From Restricted Temple to furthest temple (yes). The meaning becomes quite simple when you take the meaning of the word and not the history associated with the name as exists today.
I didn?t say that but I do believe in that history records which is confirmed by the hadith records and the bible
The same hadith records that tell us to stone adulterers, kill apostates, liken women as dogs, treat women as deficient in mind and faith, discourage the keeping of dogs, tell us that prophet bargained down God from 50 to 5 salat, that the prophet will have intercession on j-day, that people will not stay in hell forever, that a will is overridden if the man has children, that men are to be circumsized, that moses punched the angel of death and took out his eye, etc.
Or, we can exmine the bible which tells us that Lot got drunk and had sex with his daughters, that God regretted the creation of man, that Abraham lied about his wife because he feared his life, that a fine of a few sheckles needs to be paid to the family of a raped woman, that Isaac was tricked into blessing Jacob instead of Issau, etc.
It is no wonder you ultimately end up promoting the sunni ways since you accept the sunni sources and refuse to reject them for the blasphemy they are.
When a person blasphemes God and makes-up lies about Him, do we still accept the testimony of that person and deal with him, or, do we shun him and call him for the liar and blasphemer that he is? This is exactly the question you need to ask yourself before quoting any hadiths or bible writings.
That is if we translate the name of Al Aqsa Mosque literally however it may meant to Abraham at the time that way due to the hardship of travelling long distances then, for me the meaning of both mosque names has no value whatsoever, for me both Al Masjid Al Haram and Al Masjid Al Aqsa are names and should not be translated
Interesting you say they now should not be translated, while your earlier post said
-> I?, sure both of you are aware of the understanding of this verse which talks about the night of Israa, in which Allah is telling us the following ?Glory to (Allah) Who did take His servant for a Journey by night from the Sacred Mosque to the farthest Mosque, whose precincts We did bless,-? , and why Allah did that?, ?in order that We might show him some of Our Signs for He is the One Who heareth and seeth (all things)?
Of course I know that it is not bingo, I urge others to put the pieces together and find the truth for themselves, let?s say it this way, we have two strong yet contradicting proposals, it is them who need to weight and evaluate the evidences presented then make up their decision, my decision is already made up a while back, and honest to Allah my decision is only based on logic and has no emotional motivation behind it, I looked at the evidences presented by you and Ayman for very long time and kept myself from replying until I confirmed a few things, I?m a very practical man btw
I know that. This is why you changed your arguments with each thread until you got to a place where you felt it was safe to hold on to what you have been given as truth.
Maqam inside Kaaba - irrelevant
People can go inside Kaaba - irrelevant
Near the town of Lot - irrelevant
Called Baca - Irrelevant
Not taken as a qibla by the idolitars - irrelevant
Known to all previous followers of the scrioture - irrelevant
Area has olives and fig trees - irrelevantAccepted by over 1 billion sunnis & shia - relevant
Our fathers and forefathers believed in it - relevant
Supported by the hadith books - relevantYou can`t have a discussion if your mind is made-up...Else you will clutch on any straws to protect certain notions/ideas which may not be correct to begin with.
Exactly bro, that is why I?m happy to do many things, for example
- I already dropped the corrupt part of hadith regarding 50 salat going to 5 after a great deal of bargaining, just I take the 5 were ordered at once
- Happy to drop that part about the prayer lead by the prophet that maybe corrupt, however to have the Israa made of that spot means it has great importance to Allah, as well to have the prophet reaching that spot from a very far distance in no time means that Al Masjid Al Haram must be in another spot that is very far from the spot on that rock under the doom
As I pointed out, you will only be out of the woods once you abondon the hadiths altogether and begin fresh with the study of God`s words.
If anyone invents lies about God, then we immediately cease taking anything from that person when it comes to God or His system...This simple law is never applied to the hadiths where after hundreds of outright lies people still talk about taking the good stuff and
picking that which does not contradictetc.One lie about God = Satanic
Hundrends of lies about God = Really SatanicHadiths = Really Satanic
As long as you let your heart accept even 0.01% of the hadiths, then you are open to Satan`s teachings as you have accepted to listen to that which blasphemed God and attacked His system.
you know bro what I found impossible?, simply that the whole world including the jews, the christians and the muslims agreed to conspire together, and every group adjusted their books and history records perefectly to make a complete story of deception, and who is deceived?, themselves, pretty funny indeed
I am sure many who lied and deceived themselves will not be laughing on the day of days...
You are well versed Ahmed, yet you quickly forget God`s word of what has/will pass
"Did I not pledge to you, O Children of Adam, that you should not serve the devil for he is your most ardent enemy? And that you should serve Me? That is a straight path. He has misled mountain loads of you. Did you not possess any understanding?" (3660-62)
"And Satan has been successful in his suggestions to them, for they followed him, except for a group of the believers. And he did not have any authority over them except that We might know who believed in the Hereafter from those who are doubtful about it. And your Lord is Keeper over all things." (3420-21)
"He said `For that which You have caused me to be misled, I will stalk for them on Your Straight Path. Then I will come to them from between their hands, and from behind them, and from their right, and from their left; You will find most of them are unappreciative." (716-17)
"And as such, We have permitted the enemies of every prophet, human and Jinn devils, to inspire in each other with fancy words in order to deceive. Had your Lord willed, they would not have done it. You shall disregard them and their fabrications. " (6112)
"And the Day We gather them all, then We say to those who set up partners
Where are your partners whom you used to claim?Then, their only excuse was to SayBy God, our Lord, we did not set up partners!See how they lied to themselves; and that which they invented deserted them." (622-24) -
We might as well accept the story of the Anti-Christ (who is also not mentioned in the Quran, and who appears in the same books which gave us the story of the prophet leading the prayers for other prophets) who has super powers and will come to rule the earth while the only one who will stop him is the Mehdi who is then joined by Jesus while smashing the cross and killing the pigs (sounds more like a Geroge Lucas Star Wars sequal than the system of God!).
bro, for the above I have to agree with you
cheers
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Salam Ahmed,
Salam Brother Layth
I will tell you how this contradicts what God has taught us...
God has taught us that no human being is immortal (i..e all have died)
"And We did not give immortality to any human being that came before you. If you are going to die, would they be immortal?" (2134)
I agree
This means that for the story you rleate to have taken place, the prophets would have been resurected from the dead.
Or made to look like that for Mohammad, i.e. ?Shobiha to Mohammad? that he done that, for example, you know that Firon is dead, now the Quran is telling us that fire is exposed to them twice a day until the judgment day, how this can happen bro?
Also bro the Quran told us that those martyrs who died in the cause of Allah are alive and are blessed with Rizq and we just don?t know it, how this can happen if those martyrs physically died in front of our eyes?
While this is possible for God to do,
Exactly, however Allah didn?t tell us that He did that hence I?m happy to drop that part that may be a contamination to the actual story.
it would be such a miracle that surely its mention would take place in the Quran (God speaks of resurecting a man who doubted Him, the children of Israel who rebelled and were struck down) yet, God never mentions all His prophets being resurected at all for this miracle and we are left with the words of Bukhari & Abu Huraira to make a case for such an important event!
I disagree because, it is up to Allah to mention whatever signs and hold others, in fact 171 told us that Allah will show Mohammad SIGNS, in plural and yet He never told us one thing that Mohammad saw other than Jebril I guess, hence Allah didn?t tell us what signs He showed Mohammad, therefore it was Mohammad duty to tell us what he saw.
The same hadith records that tell us to stone adulterers,
Easy, drop that hadith
kill apostates,
Much easier, drop that hadith
liken women as dogs,
Not sure if I read that one but because it sounds silly and unfair to me I will drop that one also
treat women as deficient in mind and faith,
well, this hadith is a bit controversial but based on what I saw from my wife and many other women, I believe the prophet is 100% right, for example my wife always encourages me to pray while she does not, lol, I don?t force her to do anything though
discourage the keeping of dogs,
I believe the hadith meant inside the house not in the backyard, and I tell you bro to have a dog in a house (inside the house) is very filthy indeed, I had a tiny one ?chitsu? and after years of agony I have to gave it away, I tried cats afterward, and thought by buying two expensive rag doll cats it should be ok, and I tell you bro they made my house more filthier than the dog did, and ended up giving them away, now I?m trying some fish in a small fish tank and my only problem is cleaning that tank, I don?t really know bro if Allah created us to serve those animals, bloody bath them, clean their piss, fight their flees and most importantly spend a lot of money on them while there are humans who are starving to death around the globe and don?t even have clean water to drink, I have to say bro that the prophet have a point in here
tell us that prophet bargained down God from 50 to 5 salat,
I agree with you and this hadith does not make any sense to me whatsoever,
that the prophet will have intercession on j-day,
This is actually quite possible, because the quran told us that there will be some who will be allowed to have intercession and I guess Mohammad and other prophets are better qualified than us, but who knows maybe we will be allowed to have it to, the Quran was never specific to who will have it, possibly the quran mentioned the angels will have it ?, not sure, but I know that it was mentioned anonymously for certain
that people will not stay in hell forever,
I can? recall a hadith as such, but I believe you that it exists, however Allah tackled this issue clearly in the Quran which is anyone who will enter hell or paradise will stay there forever UNLESS Allah decides the contrary.
that a will is overridden if the man has children, that men are to be circumsized, that moses punched the angel of death and took out his eye, etc.
Pretty graphic hey, do you consider this hadith as law or what?, I don?t take the above seriously really, possibly I read it once in my life and that was it.
Or, we can exmine the bible which tells us that Lot got drunk and had sex with his daughters,
I agree that the Bible is 100% corrupt however the Bible for me is like the hadith, a God inspiration told by man, I hold the bible in higher regard than the hadith though, in fact the verses in the bible that are qualified by the Quran, I hold it in the same regard as I hold the Quran, both are from Allah. I can filter the rubbish in the bible with ease, in fact and to my surprise I found there are more good teachings and wisdom in the Bible than the hadith.
The part about prophet Lut is surely a contamination by sick people and must be dropped. the reason for that is what the Quran told us about Lut, at the end of the day I apply the same rule that I apply on the hadith, The Quran qualifies the Bible and the Hadith, however I may use the Bible to confirm the Quran but I will never use the hadith to confirm the Quran, the reason for that is simply, the Bible was mentioned in the Quran and the believers are required to believe in it and I could not see as such regarding the hadith, what I only saw that Allah left a few things to the prophet to explain to us, 1664
that God regretted the creation of man,
All these sound like tale stories that can never be classified as law, sharia, wisdom hence I will drop it because it conflicts with the Quran
that Abraham lied about his wife because he feared his life,
well, the lie here if happened, it does not have to be malicious, it was a protection and sur must be a logical cause for someone who matured very early like Abrahim to do it, He also lied when he said to the Kuffar that the biggest statue smashed the other statues while he was the one who did it, again , I don?t take it as a malicious lie, rather to expose their stupidity, Allah also told us that under extreme condition we can utter the words of disbelief as long as our hearts are humbled to him, therefore if really this lie happened by Ibrahim then I take it that he may have been compelled to commit it, and if Allah forgave Moses as a murderer then I?m sure He can forgive Abrahim as a liar very easy.
that a fine of a few sheckles needs to be paid to the family of a raped woman, that Isaac was tricked into blessing Jacob instead of Issau, etc.
Look bro all what you say has nothing to do with laws really because if it was a law elaboration, then that vague law at least must be mentioned in the Quran, hence all these hadiths (whatever number of them) if they don?t make sense to me I will be happy to drop it in the rubbish bin, I have absolutely no problem with that, this is how I have been all my life indeed.
It is no wonder you ultimately end up promoting the sunni ways since you accept the sunni sources and refuse to reject them for the blasphemy they are.
This is how it looks to you and others, the reality that Allah knows is quite the contrary, I remember a few months back I had a debate with a sunni radio presenter in Bankstown with his group and they almost killed me due to me accusing them with believing in many of the non sense you mentioned above, and due to the intense environment I had with them I decided not to do it again with them, there is no way I?m like them as many try hard to portray me here, Allah is my witness, I don?t promote them, however I promote what I found logical to believe in, if it happens to be the same as they believe in then this should be a piece of cake to me and should not upset me in any way. Same with any other sect.
When a person blasphemes God and makes-up lies about Him, do we still accept the testimony of that person and deal with him, or, do we shun him and call him for the liar and blasphemer that he is?
Well, the hadith is not from one person , the hadith is from many hundreds of persons, so we should drop the bad ones and try to find the good ones, we have the Quran to help us filtering it
This is exactly the question you need to ask yourself before quoting any hadiths or bible writings.
As I said bro, I don?t quote the hadith unless to show something against the hadith, I may quote the bible because honestly I hold it in much higher regard than the hadith and many of the verses in it are even held as high as the Quran verses exactly by me.
That is if we translate the name of Al Aqsa Mosque literally however it may meant to Abraham at the time that way due to the hardship of travelling long distances then, for me the meaning of both mosque names has no value whatsoever, for me both Al Masjid Al Haram and Al Masjid Al Aqsa are names and should not be translated
Interesting you say they now should not be translated, while your earlier post said
-> I?, sure both of you are aware of the understanding of this verse which talks about the night of Israa, in which Allah is telling us the following ?Glory to (Allah) Who did take His servant for a Journey by night from the Sacred Mosque to the farthest Mosque, whose precincts We did bless,-? , and why Allah did that?, ?in order that We might show him some of Our Signs for He is the One Who heareth and seeth (all things)?
Of course I know that it is not bingo, I urge others to put the pieces together and find the truth for themselves, let?s say it this way, we have two strong yet contradicting proposals, it is them who need to weight and evaluate the evidences presented then make up their decision, my decision is already made up a while back, and honest to Allah my decision is only based on logic and has no emotional motivation behind it, I looked at the evidences presented by you and Ayman for very long time and kept myself from replying until I confirmed a few things, I?m a very practical man btw
I know that. This is why you changed your arguments with each thread until you got to a place where you felt it was safe to hold on to what you have been given as truth.
I kept the 5 quotes above bro, but you lost me here, I could not work out what you are trying to say exactly, but if you mean that I change my argument , then I?m sorry bro, I DIDN?T CHANGE MY ARGUMENT, I ONLY ADDED TO IT, I was not shouting btw, I was just stressing it
Maqam inside Kaaba ? irrelevant
Irrelevant to be used an evidence to find the Kaaba because of all the other compelling evidences
People can go inside Kaaba ? irrelevant
Did I say that?, well let me assume that I did, I remember that it I said it does not make sense for the many peole to enter the Kaaba because it is too small, so to enter is irrelevant, there is nothing in the Quran that says we should enter the kabba, Al Masjid Al Haram is not Al Kabba, it is the surrounding around it
Near the town of Lot ? irrelevant
Did I say that?, well all I said that you are trying to push the understanding that they saw the ruins twice a day by the same travellers and I stated that the verse never suggested that it is the same travellers who saw in the morning that will see it at night, then you sated that they see it from Jerusalem hill, I responded by stating the verse never said that, it said ?YOU PASS BY IT?, therefore to be used as an evidence is no good because it can be speculated
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Called Baca ? Irrelevant
Did I say that?, well I said that Beca may well be referring to Mecca due to the similarity in the pronunciation and due to the fact that we can refer to humans and people via more than one name, Allah gave us an example by referring to Mohammad as Ahmed, and to Yunis as Za Al Nun
Not taken as a qibla by the idolitars ? irrelevant
Sorry, what was that?, I stated that Allah told us not to follow the Qiblah of Ahl Al Kitab
Known to all previous followers of the scrioture ? irrelevant
I believe I never commented on that , but possibly you mean when I said that all three religions have Jerusalem as sort of a point of Interest?
Area has olives and fig trees ? irrelevant
I never commented on that also, however this is a conflict on your side, because when Abraham dropped his wife and son he did that in an uncultivated valley ?Wadin Ghair Zi Zare? , not a cultivated hill with olives and trees.
Accepted by over 1 billion sunnis & shia ? relevant
I don?t think I commented on that but if my comment inclined that, then fine, yes it make sense to me that many Muslims follow the prophet teachings as Allah ordered us, some took it to the extreme though which I don?t agree with.
Our fathers and forefathers believed in it ? relevant
To be honest. I don?t know what my father really believe in, I hope he believes like I do
Supported by the hadith books ? relevant
Of course the hadith book should be held with some regards but in no way as the Bible or the Quran
You can`t have a discussion if your mind is made-up...Else you will clutch on any straws to protect certain notions/ideas which may not be correct to begin with.
Not sure what you mean really, my mind is made up on logic and common sense as far as I?m concerned
As I pointed out, you will only be out of the woods once you abondon the hadiths altogether and begin fresh with the study of God`s words.
It can?t happen because I only use very min hadith and that happned years ago and was end of story, in effect, I?m a Quran alone Muslim, however, I don?t take it to the extreme as hard core sunnis or hard core s***e or hard core quran aloners to the extreme as they do and jeopardise the literal meaning of Allah?s final warning, I firmly believe that I?m in far more stable religious environment than those sects followers I mentioned, the beauty of it on my side that this is how I have been all my life.
If anyone invents lies about God, then we immediately cease taking anything from that person when it comes to God or His system...This simple law is never applied to the hadiths where after hundreds of outright lies people still talk about taking the good stuff and
picking that which does not contradictetc.Well, the hadith is mere teachings, I guess it is you who is pushing hard that it is considered law on my side, please don?t include me with the sunni or any sect, I stated my position and as I said it is far safer than a typical sunni, s*** or quran aloner position when I give account
One lie about God = Satanic
Hundrends of lies about God = Really SatanicWell, I see it this way
One lie about God = Really Satanic
Hadiths = Really Satanic
Only the lies in the hadith are really satanic
you sound like those who say,
One Muslim is Terrorist = All Muslims are Terrorists
I don?t know actually if your logic here should be admissible,
As long as you let your heart accept even 0.01% of the hadiths, then you are open to Satan`s teachings as you have accepted to listen to that which blasphemed God and attacked His system.
Of course not, because the hadith I consider as approved teaching are very limited and there is no more that will be added so how I can be open further for Satan teachings?, unless Satan already secured my fate and does not need to worry about me any more with those very limited hadiths that I hold as approved teachings from a teacher, how about that I hold some of the Bible verses almost as the Quran exactly?, I guess I?m doomed?, I hope not
you know bro what I found impossible?, simply that the whole world including the jews, the christians and the muslims agreed to conspire together, and every group adjusted their books and history records perefectly to make a complete story of deception, and who is deceived?, themselves, pretty funny indeed
I am sure many who lied and deceived themselves will not be laughing on the day of days...
You mean those who lied and deceived deliberately, right?, if yes then I totally agree with you, they will be crying blood not tears I guess
You are well versed Ahmed, yet you quickly forget God`s word of what has/will pass
Thank you Layth, however I didn?t forget bro, I walk and talk by the Quran I never walk and talk by the hadith, I have the Quran on almost every thing I have, my pda, my mp3 in the car, my ipod, my laptop, my Arabic books, the many Arabic quran web sites that I constantly visit, my life for the last 20 years at least bro are centred around the Quran alone, I hope you believe me bro. therefore I can?t see myself forgetting it, it is always in my head while driving while bathing while working while walking almost every minute, in fact I almost believed that I?m sick due to the Quran but then realized that it is all good, Alhamdullelah
"Did I not pledge to you, O Children of Adam, that you should not serve the devil for he is your most ardent enemy? And that you should serve Me? That is a straight path. He has misled mountain loads of you. Did you not possess any understanding?" (3660-62)
I only serve Allah and I never served the prophet nor I consider him a god or even different to any other prophet
"And Satan has been successful in his suggestions to them, for they followed him, except for a group of the believers. And he did not have any authority over them except that We might know who believed in the Hereafter from those who are doubtful about it. And your Lord is Keeper over all things." (3420-21)
I hope me and you will be from those minority who won?t follow him
"He said `For that which You have caused me to be misled, I will stalk for them on Your Straight Path. Then I will come to them from between their hands, and from behind them, and from their right, and from their left; You will find most of them are unappreciative." (716-17)
Exactly, and I?m sure he is doing this with every one of us, I took him as an enemy indeed, sometimes I swear at him while sitting in the garage due to a flaw he was trying to get me into, I?m sure that he aware that I took him as an enemy, I work my but hard every day not to follow him. And believe it or not, I still fail sometimes
"And as such, We have permitted the enemies of every prophet, human and Jinn devils, to inspire in each other with fancy words in order to deceive. Had your Lord willed, they would not have done it. You shall disregard them and their fabrications. " (6112)
As I stated earlier bro, I don?t consider the hadith Zukhruf Al Qawl, it is boring, linguistly weak, most of the times hard to understand, many of it were cut short, many of it has nothing to do with Allah and His message, etc etc, therefore I don?t see the hadith falling under Zukhuf Al Qawl , this is how I see it, hence my stand to the hadith is the same all my life, it is sort of a comic book to me that I may learn something of it.
"And the Day We gather them all, then We say to those who set up partners
Where are your partners whom you used to claim?Then, their only excuse was to SayBy God, our Lord, we did not set up partners!See how they lied to themselves; and that which they invented deserted them." (622-24)Well I see the ones who listen to satan are far more partner setters than those who say ?I bear witness that there no God but Allah and Mohammad is His messenger?
While I don?t accept the above shahada as law, I see no partner setting in it, because they do not say ?Mohammad is another god?, rather ?Mohammad is His messenger?, similar the many times Allah told us in the Quran ?Obey Allah and His messenger?
Take care bro
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Peace brother Layth,
While I agree 100% that the rituals of mecca are pagan in both their origins and their designs, I believe you are also at the opposite extreme of the spectrum where everything has become
allegoric...The hajj is not physical, nor is the salat etc..Could you please show me where I said that "hajj"/annual fair or "salat"/learning connection are not physical but "allegorical"? It is not helpful when you argue against points that I didn't make.
Neither approach in my opinoin is healthy as to come to the
non-physicalconclusions you are forced to jettison many verses such as those that speak of Abraham inviting people for the hajj (obviously he invited them to a place) and that place was known as Baca, and that Abraham raised the foundations of the Temple at this place with Ismail...The same goes for Salat where to become allegoric the preperations of washing and timings all have to take on strange meanings.You are confusing the difference between "physical" and "superficial". You know that my view is that the "hajj" is an annual fair where people gather from all over. Sure it takes place at a physical location. The same can be said about "salat"/learning connection which involves physical reading of the book. So I have no problem with a physical location. What I have a problem with is making a particular physical location (it doesn't matter if it is Mecca, Jerusalem or Madagascar) an important aspect of "hajj". This is true even in your everyday affairs.
When you go to a hospital, you don't go there to visit the physical building of the hospital but you go there to get healing. It is immaterial where the hospital is located and there are even mobile hospitals nowadays. So it is the FUNCTION of the hospital as an INSTITUTION of healing that is important NOT the superficial physical building or its particular location. The same exact thing can be said about other institutions such as schools, government, courts, etc. Why do you think that unlike such human everyday examples that are concerned with the deeper function, The God is primarily concerned with the superficial physical building location or physical foundations? Why do you deny that The God is capable of using equally deep meaning as you use in your everyday affairs despite plenty of evidence in the great reading?
So you see, everything has a physical aspect and this is not a problem. The problem arises when people make a particular physical aspect such as the building or location the primary focus. This is the real "extreme" and this is what I mean by superficial. We should stop chasing the superficial aspect of a specific physical location. It doesn't matter if the house is in the Jerusalem, Mecca or New Orleans. What matters is given in passages such as 9108. Ultimately, people who chase a superficial specific location as opposed to any location where the function is satisfied have to subconsciously assign some special power to a rock or some dirt in that location to justify attachment to this location.
As for "bacca", there is no evidence that it is Jerusalem. The people of the book didn't see it as Jerusalem. There is one reference in the Bible to a valley of sorrow but the people of the book took this as allegorical because nobody knew any real valley by that name. In Arabic the word "bacca" means competition amongst other meanings. This would be compatible with the "hajj" being an annual market.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Noble
We stand in a circle and suppose,
While the Secret sits in the middle and knows...
)
This is natural when people are arguing about superficial physical building or location. There is no secret. Everyone here knows the truth from our Lord and we all can agree on the function/purpose of the restriction house.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Ayman, all...
Sorry but I am now amazed and mad at the way muslim scholars, rulers and policy makers have handled all issues since the death of Ali...
I am also unhappy at the interpretations on this website.
I will stick to the Quran, and maybe one day Allah will bless me with understanding what He needs from me.
For now I am sick of this arguing...
Salam
Noble -
Peace Noble,
I can imagine your frustration,
In best case, assuming that everybody in this discussion comes to same understanding then what is the achievment? What is the consequence of this hypothetical solution on the journey of our souls? Is it only question of quenching the curiosity? is it the expectation of finding a missing content from a puzzly form?
My understanding is that Content creates its suitable form, but form is unable to creat content!
For example walking the path of Faith, generates the prayer by itself. It becomes a natural necessity.
But prayer can not creat faith. because it is the effect of faith and not the cause of it.There are many religiouse knowledge which only fogs the way, because it is aimed at form. It is a waste of time and energy.
peace.
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Peace alpha97,
If it were that easy. Unfortunately this is not for me to judge. I did not make this Universe, Allah, did, He created me.
And it is His rules, not mine, and not any other humans who will interpret to their heart's content, as they love to interpret.
By reading the Al Quran, Allah makes it clear that He created Mankind to worship Him. Then He goes on describing the ways to do it. It could be as small as the prayer He gave to Jonah, or as big as some assignments He gave to His Prophets (such as Moses to go to Pharaoh)...
The worship includes more than the ritual, but the ritual cannot be shrugged off as it is included too...
What I found frustrating is that people keep on splitting hair as to where and which this is or not. Whereas Allah told us that our decisions between us is shuura. So if a group (such as the sunnis) have agreed between themselves what they deduced from the Al Quran, through consultation, so be it... I do not look at them as being wrong, they have followed what Allah enjoined on them, which is Consultation, based on their understanding of the Al Quran...
Now there are points of contention regarding the Hadith, and these need to be addressed, but until the Muslims bring about a full system that is better than the one put in place by the Sunnis (or the Shiias), it is all vain talk...
A good start could be the material left by Mohammed (pbuh) when he organised the first islamic constitution in Medinah, at least there are documented records of what he did there...
One thing I am always aware of, is that rulers (politicians, kings, etc) are the ones who implement policies, practices and frameworks... Take the example of the metric system, or the calendar system... Decision makers got together and decided what and how these should be, but in order for any change, there has to be a will (Allah does not change a people, until they change what is in themselves (ie their Hearts))...
Salam -
Peace Bro Layth
You might be thinking that you have wasted a lot of your effort trying to reason with Ahmed Bahgat, since you now find yourself dragged into Hadith, Sunnah, mind made up, and all the rest of it. That?s what I felt so first, then I suddenly realised what this guy is all about. It?s not in the details of his arguments, but it is rather in his stance. If you look at his unflinching stance, and then try to work out what it?s trying to convey, there is a fantastic truth coming from there. Some might mistake him for a Sunni, but don?t be that hasty. This guy will be anathema to the Sunnis, and take his word for it when he says that they have ejected, chased and severely threatened him.
The thing that Ahmed is trying to convey to us is the simplicity of faith. And this is a message of overriding importance. Reflect on it. He is absolutely right when he says that we can?t wipe the slate clean and start new. A lot of the Quranists think like this, thinking that, now that we have the blueprint (the Quran), along with the complete discrediting of tradition, it is incumbent on us to apply the blueprint and build afresh. But the Quran is not a blueprint, it is guidance. And whoever stipulated that we be architects of the universe and be given a blueprint to build? That would be the height of arrogance. No, the guidance is for us to extinguish all the misrepresentations of Satan, and thereby recover the Deen, which is still out there. When we come to a true interpretation of the Quran it shouldn?t feel like, ?Wow, I?ve crossed the seven seas to obtain the pearl of wisdom, and what a towering accomplishment it is!!!? No, instead it should feel like, ?What a fool I had been never to see the truth that was always right before my eyes.? God never decrees that we become scholars before we become Moslems. Witness these two verses.
?We made the Quran easy to learn. Do any of you wish to learn?? (5417)
?? GOD does not wish to make the religion difficult for you; He wishes to cleanse you and to perfect His blessing upon you, that you may be appreciative.? (56)
So the essence of the faith is the easiest thing for us to understand, and there are no difficulties placed within us at its practice. All we have to do is to get rid of all the lies of Satan that we have accepted. Admitted this is not easy, because there are so many. Ahmed is making this insistence. We have to be simple in the tenets of our faith. And it is also true that we have to have our minds made up beforehand. This sounds crazy and fanatic, but that is not how it?s meant. ?Having our minds made up? means that we are already with the Deen, and we are in full agreement with it, only that we don?t recognise it thanks to Satan. The Deen came to us along with the Ruhu that he breathed into us, and this Ruhu is an essence of God Himself.
?He shaped him and blew into him from His spirit (ruhu). And He gave you the hearing, the eyesight, and the brains; rarely are you thankful.? (932)
Ahmed is intolerant of every philosophical designs on the words of God, and he overcompensates, because every reading has a philosophical base, otherwise we would babbling nonsense. But when I stopped listening to his words I heard his tenacity, and this told me a different story. He wants to keep Islam simple, and his tenacity regarding this is a great message.
That which Brother Ayman and Brother Progod are proposing is very simple indeed. That the Qibla we face is towards the houses of God, plural, and not towards a singular stipulated location. Hajj is discussion, but to be carried out in the houses of God, and after the pilgrimage is made to it. Salat is ritual prayer, performed in the houses of God, or anywhere. But you have reservations to this. You protest that without a unique Qibla, and a singular location for Hajj, a lot of the verses in the Quran would not make sense. I add to this another complaint, that such a system is not observed in the present world, and we are only anticipating something that we want to build. Such a system is not here. It is only before the MIND?S eye, not on the physical plane, and this is a problem. We don?t say, after having discovered this system, ?I was a fool not to have seen it before.? Rather we say, ?Why didn?t I think of that before?? This fails our criterion, because the Deen is a tangible reality, not a philosophical concept. Jerusalem as Qibla also fails this test, because where have believers faced Jerusalem in the last 1400 years? It is just about impossible to instigate such a thing now. All these investigations won?t cut ice in the real world.
Now, what is the most ubiquitous institution and will be universally acknowledged as sacred? It is the home. In many cultures the home is described as a house of God. It?s four walls do indeed envelope the entire circular universe, and the hearth at it?s center, tended by the wife or the mother, is indeed the fire at the center, from which everything that makes us human does emerge. And the home is indeed a direction too. We say ?the home and the world? and these two are diametrically opposed directions. The world is called the dominion of Satan, but only when it is so far away from the home that it has descended into materialism. The present world is facing directly away from the home and is rushing towards the material world and thus are we much in the grip of Satan. Now if we try to imagine the greatest system of all, the way of God, wouldn?t we find that it is telling us to face towards the home, always wherever we are? Wouldn?t it thus be assuring us of the sanctity and security of this place? Wouldn?t it also be assuring us that it is a haven for humanity, and not just for the believers? Wouldn?t it be described as the first and most important foundation of all?
And wouldn?t it be the case that the same system will stipulate for us a test by providing us a temporary and alternative Qibla, one that is in the material world? We are told that it is a test for the first Ummah, but it is quite possible that it is a test for us yet. Do we ignore everything that goes on in the name of Islam and still insist on the physical Qibla, based on the most unreliable hearsay, and even though we are strictly forbidden to follow hearsay? And at the same time we are told to be wary of the majority. It is yet a test for us.
We are not told the first and second Qiblas, but we are told that the third is Masjidul Haram, which is understandable because the mention of the first two Qiblas would have left scope for contention. Tradition says the first is Jerusalem, and the second is most likely Mecca. But the third, and standing, one cannot be either of the two, not Jerusalm because we have never told that there is a reinstatement. We are told that Mohammed was looking towards the skies for a desirable Qibla before Masjidul Haram was chosen. He was desiring a Qibla not on the worldly plane?
Don?t misunderstand. I?m not saying brick houses should be bowed down to. Qibla does not appear in conjunction with the Salat anywhere in the Quran. The Qibla is our focus, our constant focus, not only during Salat. Otherwise Brother Ayman describes Salat and Hajj as I would do, with this added understanding.
Only remains to be seen if such a community of believers exists out there. Of course it does. The claws of organized religion has subjected everything, but there are still believers out there. Because Masjidul Haram is indeed a sanctuary from this den of sin. I look carefully and I see their focus of the real believer to be the home. The mosque or the church is attended, but they do not occupy the focus. The disbeliever, on the other hand, is excessively attached to the mosque or church while neglecting the home. Their stance is that of Abraham, so Maqam Ibrahim is in this house, and it is a clear sign, and there are many others. Yes, against all the odds there are still believers. The Deen is here, and we see it only if we are able to remove our blinkers. We don?t have to invent it. A simple faith, and no difficulty to come to.
Fabian
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Peace be upon you
Interesting reserach by Layth and Ayman.
37 137
Yusuf Ali Verily ye pass by their (sites) by day
Pickthall And Lo! ye verily pass by (the ruin of) them in the morning
Transliteration Wa in nakum latamur ru_na alaihim musbihin37 138
Yusuf Ali And by night will ye not understand?
Pickthall And at night time; have ye then no sense?
Transliteration Wa bil lail afala_ taqilu_nThe above verses are used by Brother Layth among other evidence to prove that Muhammad lived near the dead sea where people of Lot were destroyed in the past.
But I noticed through out Quraan the expression will ye not understand/ have ye then no sense? is used to address man in general and not the prophet.
What is your opinion on this ?
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Salam fabian,
The thing that Ahmed is trying to convey to us is the simplicity of faith. And this is a message of overriding importance. Reflect on it. He is absolutely right when he says that we can?t wipe the slate clean and start new. A lot of the Quranists think like this, thinking that, now that we have the blueprint (the Quran), along with the complete discrediting of tradition, it is incumbent on us to apply the blueprint and build afresh. But the Quran is not a blueprint, it is guidance. And whoever stipulated that we be architects of the universe and be given a blueprint to build? That would be the height of arrogance. No, the guidance is for us to extinguish all the misrepresentations of Satan, and thereby recover the Deen, which is still out there. When we come to a true interpretation of the Quran it shouldn?t feel like, ?Wow, I?ve crossed the seven seas to obtain the pearl of wisdom, and what a towering accomplishment it is!!!? No, instead it should feel like, ?What a fool I had been never to see the truth that was always right before my eyes.? God never decrees that we become scholars before we become Moslems. Witness these two verses.
?We made the Quran easy to learn. Do any of you wish to learn?? (5417)
?? GOD does not wish to make the religion difficult for you; He wishes to cleanse you and to perfect His blessing upon you, that you may be appreciative.? (56)
So the essence of the faith is the easiest thing for us to understand, and there are no difficulties placed within us at its practice. All we have to do is to get rid of all the lies of Satan that we have accepted. Admitted this is not easy, because there are so many. Ahmed is making this insistence. We have to be simple in the tenets of our faith. And it is also true that we have to have our minds made up beforehand. This sounds crazy and fanatic, but that is not how it?s meant. ?Having our minds made up? means that we are already with the Deen, and we are in full agreement with it, only that we don?t recognise it thanks to Satan. The Deen came to us along with the Ruhu that he breathed into us, and this Ruhu is an essence of God Himself.
No offence Fabian, but what you are saying is basically this
"And if they are told
Follow that which God has sent down.They SayNo, we will follow what we found our fathers doing.What if the devil had been leading them to the agony of Hell?" (3121)This view that Satan could not have inflitrated our fathers and ancestors for all those centuries and misled them as drastically as I am claiming is the surest way to get trapped in the same flypaper they were trapped in (majority can`t all be wrong - or can they?).
What I find intersting with this approach is that if I tell you fine, then we will accept, if we are born in a Christian family that Jesus is God and is the son of God and is a trinity - since that is the simplest understanding for nearly 2,000 years accepted by the vast majority, you will shout
NO!the Christian situation is different because the devil has misled them in their masses but they do not know.Your rule and Ahmed
s (if he follows the same one) is only there to protect the traditions that we have blindly followed for centuries while ignoring the clear verses that dispell all these notions asfabrications`.Ahmed is intolerant of every philosophical designs on the words of God, and he overcompensates, because every reading has a philosophical base, otherwise we would babbling nonsense. But when I stopped listening to his words I heard his tenacity, and this told me a different story. He wants to keep Islam simple, and his tenacity regarding this is a great message.
My brother, you and Ahmed have all the right in the world to protect and preserve Sunnism and
keep it simple, just don`t tell me this is Islam or that this is from the Quran (because it is not).That which Brother Ayman and Brother Progod are proposing is very simple indeed. That the Qibla we face is towards the houses of God, plural, and not towards a singular stipulated location. Hajj is discussion, but to be carried out in the houses of God, and after the pilgrimage is made to it. Salat is ritual prayer, performed in the houses of God, or anywhere. But you have reservations to this. You protest that without a unique Qibla, and a singular location for Hajj, a lot of the verses in the Quran would not make sense. I add to this another complaint, that such a system is not observed in the present world, and we are only anticipating something that we want to build. Such a system is not here. It is only before the MIND?S eye, not on the physical plane, and this is a problem. We don?t say, after having discovered this system, ?I was a fool not to have seen it before.? Rather we say, ?Why didn?t I think of that before?? This fails our criterion, because the Deen is a tangible reality, not a philosophical concept. Jerusalem as Qibla also fails this test, because where have believers faced Jerusalem in the last 1400 years? It is just about impossible to instigate such a thing now. All these investigations won?t cut ice in the real world.
Since when has truth been linked to what the masses say or do?
If the entire world (as in the days of Noah) worshipped false gods and abondoned the system of the Almighty, does that mean that God no longer exists or His system has failed because only Noah and a handful of people still remember?
The obsession people have with the last 1,400 years is one of the worst obstacles I come across when discussing anything from the Quran (it isn
t done this way, we didnt hear about it before, no one does it)...Ya akhi, is it not enough that God says it? Cant we simplyhear & obeywithout bringing the history of the people before us (whom you have no idea what or where they are ending up)....Also, I find your choice of history to be selective to promote a viewpoint that you or Ahmed hold. Why do you stop today in 2006 and tell melook, they are all facing Meca?. why dont you backtrack to the days of AbdulMalik and read that he thought the pilgrimage to Jerusalem which is why he raised the Dome of the Rock structure (with no Mihraab, unlike any mosque)...why dont you read on the mosques which date back to the early days of the revelation and who were found with their Mihraab constructed not facing Mecca, but rather in approximation to Jerusalem? Why dont you tell me why the followers of the prophet went into a civil war where they were killed in the thousands and the original Quran was lost (or allegedly burned by Othman?)...this is what I mean about you beingselectivein your choice for what is real and what is not...You want to talk history, bring ALL the history and see if you will move forward one inch from all the mess.I follow what God has revealed, as for those who passed before me
"That was a nation that has passed away; to them is what they have earned, and to you is what you have earned; and you will not be asked regarding what they did." (2134)
We are not told the first and second Qiblas, but we are told that the third is Masjidul Haram, which is understandable because the mention of the first two Qiblas would have left scope for contention. Tradition says the first is Jerusalem, and the second is most likely Mecca. But the third, and standing, one cannot be either of the two, not Jerusalm because we have never told that there is a reinstatement. We are told that Mohammed was looking towards the skies for a desirable Qibla before Masjidul Haram was chosen. He was desiring a Qibla not on the worldly plane?
Your 1&2 are from the hadith, your 3 is based on your own understanding which does not hold water with all the verses which tell us the Masjid Alharam is a
physicalplace (it can be attacked and fought in, it is visited during pilgrimage, it is a source of revenue for its keepers, etc.).Don?t misunderstand. I?m not saying brick houses should be bowed down to. Qibla does not appear in conjunction with the Salat anywhere in the Quran. The Qibla is our focus, our constant focus, not only during Salat. Otherwise Brother Ayman describes Salat and Hajj as I would do, with this added understanding.
1087 is sufficient proof for Qibla & Salat to be related...Also, I noticed that your whole talk in this post was about
keeping it simpleand that Satan could not have changed the deen for 1,400 years, yet now you are spinning ideas that come from neither the masses not from even their writings/history.Finally, you say early on that God does not want us to be schoars, only to be simple Muslims...I disagree
"And it is not advisable for the believers to march out in their entirety. For every battalion that marches out, let a group remain to study the system, and warn their people when they return to them, perhaps they will be aware." (9122)
God encourages, in-fact, demands, that a group study the system and inform the others of what it says...Never does he tell us to follow the majority mentality or ro accept what is being peddled in His name...Only that we accept His word above all else as the truth and the most accurate history.
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Peace Warner,
The above verses are used by Brother Layth among other evidence to prove that Muhammad lived near the dead sea where people of Lot were destroyed in the past.
But I noticed through out Quraan the expression will ye not understand/ have ye then no sense? is used to address man in general and not the prophet.
What is your opinion on this ?
That same expression
afla taqiloonis used in various verses to adress various groups- Adressing Bani Israel 244
- Bani Israel adressing their own people 276
- Adressing Jews & Nazarines 365
- Mohamed adressing his community 1016
- Aad adressing his people 11
There are a few more example, but I am sure you can see that the word itself does not imply that mankind is always adressed, rather it is specific to the context/speaker/audience.
