Alcohol .. Last and Final debate
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Have you guys read the article on alcohol on the freeminds website ? What do you make of it ?
I am so confused about alcohol. I always thought and still do that consuming alcohol is haram until this article made me think in a new way .. What do you guys think?
I am going to start university in Oct and u guys know how it is .. everyone drinks, drinks and drinks. You are bound to feel left out sometimes ... I juts want to know wehther alcohol is halal or haram to consume !!
I know there have been many discussions on this topic in this forum but I want this thread to be the best in explaining it .. so goooo on
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Peace,
This is my piece of the pie then.
This is a sensetive argument, but mostly it is based on the demand for the so-called only magic word that can forbid things, haram. When researching the Quran and it's overall use of words, it can be clearly seen that there are more words used to make something restricted. There is a verse that says don't be intoxicated during salaat, but this immedialty give a green light to get intoxicated? Not in my view. It keeps in account some people will use intoxications, nothing more. A lot of people say intoxicants are allowed in small amounts based on some verses, but they forget some verses refer to medication and not to intoxicants taken for pleasure.-
They ask you about intoxicants and gambling. Say ?In them is great harm, and a benefit for the people; but their harm is greater than their benefit.? And they ask you how much are they to give, Say ?The excess.? It is thus that God clarifies for you the revelations that you may think.
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O you who believe, intoxicants, and gambling, and altars, and arrows of chance are tools of affliction used by the one that is distanced from God(shaytain=shaat=long rope). You shall AVOID it so that you may be successful.
The magic words are You shall AVOID it
Let's look for them
431 If you avoid the major sins that you are forbidden against, then We will cancel your existing sins and admit you to a generous entrance.
9115 And it is not for God to misguide a people after He guided them, until He makes clear to them what they should avoid. God is aware of all things.
2230 Thus, and whosoever honours God's restrictions, then it is better for him with His Lord. And the livestock is made lawful for you except what is recited upon you. So avoid the foulness of idols and avoid saying false statements.
3917 And for those who avoid serving evil, and turn to God in repentance, for them are glad tidings. So give the good news to My servants.
So let's say avoiding only is an advice, and a little consumption of intoxicants are allowed, is then looking at the use of avoiding in this verse, does this mean a little serving evil? A little idol-worship? A little bit of false statements?
5332 They avoid major sins and lewdness, except for minor offences. Your Lord is with vast forgiveness. He has been fully aware of you since He initiated you from the Earth, and while you were embryos in your mothers' wombs. Therefore, do not acclaim yourselves; He is fully aware of the righteous.
So a little major sins is allowed?
2222 They ask you about menstruation say, "It is harmful; you shall avoid sexual intercourse with the women during menstruation; do not approach them until they are rid of it. Once they are rid of it, you may have intercourse with them in the manner designed by GOD. GOD loves the repenters, and He loves those who are clean."
Is also a little sex allowed during menstruation? And the 'you shall avoid it' is clearly explained in the sentence after it, 'do not approach them until..', so 'avoid' is equal to 'do not do it all'.
668 If you see those who mock our revelations, you shall avoid them until they delve into another subject. If the devil causes you to forget, then, as soon as you remember, do not sit with such evil people.
So we can sit a little bit with them or must we completly distance ourselves from then till they change the subject?
1636 We have sent a messenger to every community, saying, "You shall worship GOD, and avoid idolatry." Subsequently, some were guided by GOD, while others were committed to straying. Roam the earth and note the consequences for the rejectors.
2230 Those who reverence the rites decreed by GOD have deserved a good reward at their Lord. All livestock is made lawful for your food, except for those specifically prohibited for you. You shall avoid the abomination of idol worship, and avoid bearing false witness.
So a little idolatry is allowed?
233 And they avoid vain talk.
And a little vain talk is allowed?
4912 O you who believe, you shall avoid any suspicion, for even a little bit of suspicion is sinful. You shall not spy on one another, nor shall you backbite one another; this is as abominable as eating the flesh of your dead brother. You certainly abhor this. You shall observe GOD. GOD is Redeemer, Most Merciful.
Here we must avoid, and the sentence behind it is intruiging, as even a little bit is harmful.
My point is that to say the word haram is not the only one used to restrict/forbid things, is not correct when the Quran is investigated. Also in the Hereafter we get drinks that don't intoxicate, if a little bit was allowed, why then make them non-intoxicate?
5618 With cups and jugs and a cup/wine flowing easily and plentifully.
19 They do not get headache from it, and nor they be drunk/exhausted/intoxicated .As for the sentence that says we make intoxicants from the fruits
1667 And from the palm trees' and the grapes' fruits you take from it intoxication , and a good/beautiful provision , that in that (is) an evidence/sign (E) to a nation reasoning/understanding .
Does this immediatly imply intoxicants are allowed for pleasure? Also in older times, alcohol was used in medical uses and chemical uses. As 2219 clearly implies, there is more harm then use in them, which is acknowledged in the medical world, where narcotics are used for narcoses and anaesthetics, and is harmfull for the body even in small amounts.
I myself used to drink and smoke weed, and i too made use of 'haram is not used' but after research on the Quran, i came to the clear conclusion this is only an escapegoat. When God gives us an advice, who are we to neglect it? There are only few who know their limits, and even then we are still neglecting God's advice. I myself also thought always i'm strong and mature enough to handle it, but this is not what is in dispute here, it is about the words used.
To say only the 'haram' can forbid it is not true. Please bare this in mind. I understand that there are enough people who can handle themselves, just sometimes in little amounts, but that is not what on dispute, i know people are mature persons who can handle herself. But God used the same words with idolworship and major harmfull deeds, and it is clear then that the use of words must be taken serious. I hope people will consider this, before they type something like God didn't forbid it, as God clearly gives a more negative then positive tone when talking about intoxicants. For some people the negative tone is enough, others just ignore it as a adolecent would."When man doesn't change his life to fit his faith, he will change his faith to fit his life."
Peace
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Peace
As Allah advised you, you should avoid it, which means also avoid the places where it is heavily consumed, such as pubs and bars...
If you are already drinking it, then you need to consider starting reducing it slowly (depending on how much you are taking), until your body does not rely on it anymore.
Alcohol is mainly used as an anti-depressant, and it is true that it makes you euphoric and numb for a while, but then you get used to it, and need more. It also tends to make you depressed after its effect has worn off, so you then need more.
You can just tell your mates that you do not drink it because of health reasons...
Now if you consider still drinking it, you must make sure you control yourself, but I personally will not advise it. There is nothing you can gain from drinking Alcohol.
Allah's help will be with you if you avoid it.
Salam
Noble -
Currently we can no nothing for those who drink alcohol or who produce it, because no Islamic law pervail in the world, unless U and me start to establish Allah's deen into common actions to make ourself live in shirothol mustaqem thru amanu, hajaru and jahadu (QS.9/20)
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Peace all,
Peace Arnold, I just wanted to thank you for changing my thinking in regard to Alcohol; it all makes sense. Also thank you ammarb87 for bringing this subject up again. Though I was not much into drinking (my mouth never liked the taste), I used to drink but very rarely and very little, however, that very little sometimes was enough to just make my head start spinning ;D.
Peace
FJ -
I wonder wether "intoxicant" is really a good translation of the word khamr.
IMHO, "intoxicant" does not fit in .(Here is) a Parable of the Garden which the righteous are promised in it are rivers of water incorruptible; rivers of milk of which the taste never changes; rivers of wine, a joy to those who drink; and rivers of honey pure and clear. In it there are for them all kinds of fruits; and Grace from their Lord. (Can those in such Bliss) be compared to such as shall dwell for ever in the Fire, and be given, to drink, boiling water, so that it cuts up their bowels (to pieces)?
"rivers of wine, a joy to those who drink" makes sense to me, but "rivers of intoxicant, a joy to those who drink" does not.
Peace
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Peace All
I already made my position clear to Arnold re. Alcohol, however it is not an issue worth debating, especially for me as I stopped drinking it.
However we have to be careful not to be like some extreme groups such as the Salafists who will eagerly make someone a kafir if he does drink alcohol or does not wear a beard, etc.
My position is that we have no right of calling someone a kafir if he tells us he is a muslim, no matter what he does...
I understand your issue Arnold with intoxicants due to your history, but you must also respect others' freedom of choice.
Allah has given it to mankind, who are we to stop them?
Besides you cannot force feed the Quran on others, let alone your own interpretations of it, which might again be mistaken (unless you have an ego as big as the Stars!).
Unless you want to become another of those loonies extremists yourself...
Do not exagerate in your faith...
Salam
Noble -
Peace,
Dear Noble, did i ever say a person is a kafir because of drinking? No. You insist that i totaly reject any freedom on this issue, which is pure nonsense, and your psychological analysis is poor and baseless. Because of my history it is exactly the opposite of what you're implying. I understand a person when he still uses intoxicants and tries his best to follow and understand the Quran. The only thing i did was that it cannot be denied intoxicants are approached in a negative term. This is a fact. Also i have shown that "avoid it" can be as serious as "haram". Nothing more and nothing less, these are pure facts, what people do with it is there own personal choice.
To write a post like you have done now, that suggest i become close to look i am almost some extremist or that i force feed any interpretation, is purely ignorant. Nowhere in my post do i force anybody, i have just presented pure facts to remind people to think hard on their decisions. To say i don't respect freedom of choices is pathetic and also hypocrite. As we had our clashes before in discussions where you were applauding the ones who were calling me the kafir. Since then you have changed your attitude and also have become less rigid in your approach to certain issues in the Quran. This i see as positive, and i have learned to respect your quest more. To remind you, i don't believe in a physical hell, a physical punishment, this is also especially formed through my concept of freedom of thinking God has given us, so to think i would not respect other opinions is showing you have no insight at all in my philosophical and theological background why i believe certain things. I don't believe in an eternal and punishing hell because i understand the people who reject certain issues or behave in harmfull ways, and i cannot accept a God who also doesn't see this. That is why i started to look further and found out that the concept of heaven and hell of todays theological world are completly false. I didn't need any twisting of meanings, i only needed certain insights to understand the bigger meanings behind certain verses. I even respect enquirer, more then you ever could, although is may dislike his behavior, he has philosophical questions the traditional approaches can never answer.
I say to you dear Noble, don't exagerate in your posts and think hard before you post something about a person's thinking, as you cannot look behind the internetname, but also you should have known better when looking at my view of Quranic issues. I hope you will learn from this.
Peace
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peace
http//www.goyk.com/video.asp?path=1647
no we dont drink in this mine
http//youtube.com/watch?v=SoXKFkwY-nY&search=drunk%20russiannuff said
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Peace Bro Arnold
You make me smile
Why are you so uptight and serious. Chill down, relax. Can't you take a bit of criticism, even if it is not 100% or 50% or 25% correct or incorrect?.
You are acting as if your life depended on it.
As far as me, I am pretty flexible... even when I was cheering some guys who were criticising you more than I do...
My approach and attitude is to be in the middle ground.
There is no way I can change someone's attitude or belief, but I can change mine...
Yes after some hard thinking I came to realise that no matter what, I have no control over anything whatsoever, but what I can think and do, within life's parameters allowed by Allah, that I have some measure of control over. Therefore, I say what I think is correct, without fear.
Cheers friend
Noble -
Peace,
rather be 'serious' then writing 'incorrect' posts
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Peace all,
I have a general question. If, as an example, alcohol was used for medicinal purposes, and there wasn't much of a choice, would you not use it at all due to it being "avoided"?
I think we all agree here that the term 'forbidden' is much stronger than avoid. But let's, for the sake of argument, put them on the same level.
Pig or dead flesh is said to be forbidden, but at the same time we are told that in certain circumstances we can have it. (2173)
Rejection of God after believing is also one of the worst things one can do, but there is also a clause where if one is forced (for whatever reason), it is permitted as long as in the person's heart is belief.(16106)In cases of idolatory, for example, if the wording "avoid" is used, it is unfair to equate that with drinking alcohol, knowing what is said in other verses about it. Example, 'shirk' is unforgivable, if maintained until death. While on the other hand, as noble pointed out on another thread, there are mentions in quran of not going for salat while intoxicated, or mentions of it being 'consumed' in the afterlife, or even it being used for trade.
On a personal level, I don't drink, never have, God willing never will. I don't see any benefit in it, although God tells us there is SOME benefit but much harm in it (this applies to this day and age also). I wouldn't encourage or advise anyone to drink. In the case of universities, or colleges in America, I'll give you an example, there are several cases where young people have died due to alcohol poisoning or accidents that could have been prevented.
So ammarb87, don't get into drinking... get into studies.
Peace
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Peace Bro Zenje, all
I guess to have been lucky not dying from it then, because I used to consume an awful lot.
This business of avoid has been taken too far in some salafist circles, for instance, when I went into repentance, with a group of brothers, we decided to stop drinking soft drinks because someone convinced us it had trace amounts of alcohol..., also did you know that there is alcohol in any food that uses fermentation, such as brewer's yeast and chocolate...
Personally, I do take tinctures of herbal medicines which contain a high level of alcohol used to extract the active ingredients of the herbs/plants. Many medicines and food stuff use alcohol as a preservative.
I think the bottom line is to avoid being intoxicated by it...
And Arnold comparing alcohol consumption to shirk in the examples he chose to use is plain silly, and that him being so touchy about being criticised as to where he is coming from just means that it was the reason for his stand.
That he does not believe in a physical hell and heaven has nothing to do with this, just him being apologetic in a silly way...
Salam Bros
Noble -
Peace all,
I have a general question. If, as an example, alcohol was used for medicinal purposes, and there wasn't much of a choice, would you not use it at all due to it being "avoided"?
I think we all agree here that the term 'forbidden' is much stronger than avoid. But let's, for the sake of argument, put them on the same level.
Pig or dead flesh is said to be forbidden, but at the same time we are told that in certain circumstances we can have it. (2173)
Rejection of God after believing is also one of the worst things one can do, but there is also a clause where if one is forced (for whatever reason), it is permitted as long as in the person's heart is belief.(16106)In cases of idolatory, for example, if the wording "avoid" is used, it is unfair to equate that with drinking alcohol, knowing what is said in other verses about it. Example, 'shirk' is unforgivable, if maintained until death. While on the other hand, as noble pointed out on another thread, there are mentions in quran of not going for salat while intoxicated, or mentions of it being 'consumed' in the afterlife, or even it being used for trade.
On a personal level, I don't drink, never have, God willing never will. I don't see any benefit in it, although God tells us there is SOME benefit but much harm in it (this applies to this day and age also). I wouldn't encourage or advise anyone to drink. In the case of universities, or colleges in America, I'll give you an example, there are several cases where young people have died due to alcohol poisoning or accidents that could have been prevented.
So ammarb87, don't get into drinking... get into studies.
Peace
Very well put brother
I was not as fortunate as you have been by not touching alcohol, i used to and in fact drinking it was one of the reason not to l,ike it becauuse I found absolutely nothing good in it rather a depresssent drug
cheers
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Peace Ahmed
Well since I stopped heavy drinking, then a few years later drinking, my health has become much better. The benefits of alcohol as Allah warned us are dwarfed by the dangers.
What annoyed me is that Arnold used shirk and other kaba'ir examples to justify his views.
For me that Allah tells me avoid is enough, but also because my faith is now stronger, because for a few years I was drinking while practicing my faith.
Allah is merciful and cases like mine were catered for with the ayat that said do not approach salat while intoxicated...
It is very relevant that Allah bothered to say so, it is because He knows (and now medicine knows) that stopping an addiction is not easy and takes time...
So for those who have never touched alcohol as a drink before, it is advised that they carry on keeping away from it.
On a side note, when you are a freshman at university, there is also a pressure to have a girl friend, so will one do that just because of the peer pressure?, same with drugs, etc...
Take care Bro
Noble