Wings?
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Peace Arnoldyasin and all,
I actually have thought about the Devil existing at all in the past, but the way you analyzed the scripture was a good way to understand it.
I really liked what you said about blindly accepting history and at the sametime totally rejecting it. I feel the same way with many aHadiths as well, not that they ever come close to the Quran but that some may be real and some may either be wrong/corrupted/misunderstood when being passed down.
However, would you think that all Muslims during Muhammads time would have had the same view as you since they spoke the language that you are talking about or could there have been different beliefs as there is now? Different interpretations of it that is.
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Peace,
The way Muhammed's people understood it is to be seen by their actions, and so i believe they approached the same as me, as their actions were about human-rights and not worship. The problem only was that after 50 years 80% of all the muslims were non-arabs and so an elite formed that learned arabic and determined what the people should know or not. Also Christians, Jews, Persians and Pagans used their ideas of religion on the Quran, and these formed small sects and schools. Sunnism of today was one of those sects, that was small in the first ages of Islam, but by support of the elite became the main-stream Islam interpretation. Sunnism comes from different schools who used Christians, Jews, Persians and Pagans beliefs to form there version of Islam. Because these schools allowed an elite to form, instead of pure equality, they were supported by the kings and elite. The same happened in Christianity where the Catholic-sect became the main-stream as they were supported by the emporer.
I recommend you to read these 2 books to understand the Quran and it's history better
http//www.tolueislam.com/Bazm/Wadud/AW_caq_3.htm
http//www.ourbeacon.com/TRUE%20HISTORY.pdf
http//www.tolueislam.com/Parwez/ICR/ICR.htm
Peace
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Peace,
That makes a lot of sense. However, what would you think about the supernatural? Is that just our minds creating them, or are there actual beings like that?
I also remember reading/seeing on tv several times how Noah was actually a Sumerian (?) mythology and the Jews copied that story for themselves. Now the Quran also speaks of Nuh. Again back to what you said about accepting/denouncing history. Could there be some truth to Satan and him being an Angel as it is widely believed?
Thanks for the links. I have been to the first site before I believe and it was one of the first sites actually that I remember seeing them wanting a reform movement to going back to Quran alone. I am learning alot from this topic, thanks for everyone contributing.
Peace
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Peace,
The Quran doesn't use the terms angel and doesn't use the word satan as a creature but as a description. So as i already said, no satan is not seen as a fallen angel. This is pure mythology made up by people.
malikah=something/one in control and authority=can be forces of nature/poweful humans/kings and rulers/mighty warriors and so on.
shaitan comes from shaat=long rope, shaitan in the Quran means=something/one distanced from Allah and progress=can be anything from intoxicants to bad behaviour to a bad person. All can be distanced from God. So satan is not a title of a person, but a discription of if it is good or not.
And the story of Nuh is a widely known one in the middle east. So it is no wonder God used him as an example in many scriptures.
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Peace,
The way Muhammed's people understood it is to be seen by their actions, and so i believe they approached the same as me, as their actions were about human-rights and not worship. The problem only was that after 50 years 80% of all the muslims were non-arabs and so an elite formed that learned arabic and determined what the people should know or not. Also Christians, Jews, Persians and Pagans used their ideas of religion on the Quran, and these formed small sects and schools. Sunnism of today was one of those sects, that was small in the first ages of Islam, but by support of the elite became the main-stream Islam interpretation. Sunnism comes from different schools who used Christians, Jews, Persians and Pagans beliefs to form there version of Islam. Because these schools allowed an elite to form, instead of pure equality, they were supported by the kings and elite. The same happened in Christianity where the Catholic-sect became the main-stream as they were supported by the emporer.
I recommend you to read these 2 books to understand the Quran and it's history better
http//www.tolueislam.com/Bazm/Wadud/AW_caq_3.htm
http//www.ourbeacon.com/TRUE%20HISTORY.pdf
http//www.tolueislam.com/Parwez/ICR/ICR.htm
Worshipping and servicing idols has, throughout history and even today, been an essential foundation to bring about surmountable belief systems. Reading just a few passages of tolueislam link, it seems that the author got the history bungled up and the article is not at all an intelligent one.
shaitan comes from shaat=long rope, shaitan in the Quran means=something/one distanced from Allah and progress=can be anything from intoxicants to bad behaviour to a bad person.
Arnold, l'd like to know that how you derived shaat from shaitan since I couldn't find any etymological reference as such dating back to history?
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Peace,
This can be found in almost all dictionaries of Classic Arabic.
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This can be found in almost all dictionaries of Classic Arabic.
Should I treat all Classical Arabic dictionaries as 'Allah's' words and believe that the same word Shaitaan never existed in other languages such as Hebrew and therefore, take it as granted? I'm sure that Classical Arabic, as one of the Semitic languages, also has several meanings of each word. Shaitaan being derived from shaat to mean "long rope" is quite a stretch and has no connection.
http//www.psyche.com/psyche/lex/shaitan.html
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaitan
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satan -
Besides, "shaytaan" comes from the root sheen-tay-noon along with other words. "Shaat", if I'm not mistaken, means 'burnt' or 'to become burnt' and "shatan" means rope.
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*** Lucifer - The Fallen Angel ***
http//lds-mormon.com/lucifer.shtml
The word "Lucifer" in Isaiah 1412 presents a minor problem to mainstream Christianity. It becomes a much larger problem to Bible literalists, and becomes a huge obstacle for the claims of Mormonism. John J. Robinson in A Pilgrim's Path, pp. 47-48 explains
"Lucifer makes his appearance in the fourteenth chapter of the Old Testament book of Isaiah, at the twelfth verse, and nowhere else "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!"
The first problem is that Lucifer is a Latin name. So how did it find its way into a Hebrew manuscript, written before there was a Roman language? To find the answer, I consulted a scholar at the library of the Hebrew Union College in Cincinnati. What Hebrew name, I asked, was Satan given in this chapter of Isaiah, which describes the angel who fell to become the ruler of hell?
The answer was a surprise. In the original Hebrew text, the fourteenth chapter of Isaiah is not about a fallen angel, but about a fallen Babylonian king, who during his lifetime had persecuted the children of Israel. It contains no mention of Satan, either by name or reference. The Hebrew scholar could only speculate that some early Christian scribes, writing in the Latin tongue used by the Church, had decided for themselves that they wanted the story to be about a fallen angel, a creature not even mentioned in the original Hebrew text, and to whom they gave the name "Lucifer."
Why Lucifer? In Roman astronomy, Lucifer was the name given to the morning star (the star we now know by another Roman name, Venus). The morning star appears in the heavens just before dawn, heralding the rising sun. The name derives from the Latin term lucem ferre, bringer, or bearer, of light." In the Hebrew text the expression used to describe the Babylonian king before his death is Helal, son of Shahar, which can best be translated as "Day star, son of the Dawn." The name evokes the golden glitter of a proud king's dress and court (much as his personal splendor earned for King Louis XIV of France the appellation, "The Sun King".
The scholars authorized by ... King James I to translate the Bible into current English did not use the original Hebrew texts, but used versions translated ... largely by St. Jerome in the fourth century. Jerome had mistranslated the Hebraic metaphor, "Day star, son of the Dawn," as "Lucifer," and over the centuries a metamorphosis took place. Lucifer the morning star became a disobedient angel, cast out of heaven to rule eternally in hell. Theologians, writers, and poets interwove the myth with the doctrine of the Fall, and in Christian tradition Lucifer is now the same as Satan, the Devil, and --- ironically --- the Prince of Darkness.
So "Lucifer" is nothing more than an ancient Latin name for the morning star, the bringer of light. That can be confusing for Christians who identify Christ himself as the morning star, a term used as a central theme in many Christian sermons. Jesus refers to himself as the morning star in Revelation 2216 "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star."
And so there are those who do not read beyond the King James version of the Bible, who say 'Lucifer is Satan so says the Word of God'...."
Henry Neufeld (a Christian who comments on Biblical sticky issues) went on to say,
"this passage is often related to Satan, and a similar thought is expressed in Luke 1018 by Jesus, that was not its first meaning. It's primary meaning is given in Isaiah 144 which says that when Israel is restored they will "take up this taunt against the king of Babylon . . ." Verse 12 is a part of this taunt song. This passage refers first to the fall of that earthly king...
How does the confusion in translating this verse arise? The Hebrew of this passage reads "heleyl, ben shachar" which can be literally translated "shining one, son of dawn." This phrase means, again literally, the planet Venus when it appears as a morning star. In the Septuagint, a 3rd century BC translation of the Hebrew scriptures into Greek, it is translated as "heosphoros" which also means Venus as a morning star.
How did the translation "lucifer" arise? This word comes from Jerome's Latin Vulgate. Was Jerome in error? Not at all. In Latin at the time, "lucifer" actually meant Venus as a morning star. Isaiah is using this metaphor for a bright light, though not the greatest light to illustrate the apparent power of the Babylonian king which then faded."
Therefore, Lucifer wasn't equated with Satan until after Jerome. Jerome wasn't in error. Later Christians (and Mormons) were in equating "Lucifer" with "Satan".
So why is this a problem to Christians? Christians now generally believe that Satan (or the Devil or Lucifer who they equate with Satan) is a being who has always existed (or who was created at or near the "beginning". Therefore, they also think that the 'prophets' of the Old Testament believed in this creature. The Isaiah scripture is used as proof (and has been used as such for hundreds of years now). As Elaine Pagels explains though, the concept of Satan has evolved over the years and the early Bible writers didn't believe in or teach such a doctrine.
The irony for those who believe that "Lucifer" refers to Satan is that the same title ('morning star' or 'light-bearer' is used to refer to Jesus, in 2 Peter 119, where the Greek text has exactly the same term 'phos-phoros' 'light-bearer.' This is also the term used for Jesus in Revelation 2216.
So why is Lucifer a far bigger problem to Mormons? Mormons claim that an ancient record (the Book of Mormon) was written beginning in about 600 BC, and the author in 600 BC supposedly copied Isaiah in Isaiah's original words. When Joseph Smith pretended to translate the supposed 'ancient record', he included the Lucifer verse in the Book of Mormon. Obviously he wasn't copying what Isaiah actually wrote. He was copying the King James Version of the Bible. Another book of LDS scripture, the Doctrine & Covenants, furthers this problem in 7626 when it affirms the false Christian doctrine that "Lucifer" means Satan. This incorrect doctrine also spread into a third set of Mormon scriptures, the Pearl of Great Price, which describes a war in heaven based, in part, on Joseph Smith's incorrect interpretation of the word "Lucifer" which only appears in Isaiah.
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Nowhere it says in the Koran, that Iblis was a fallen angel; or even an angel. Nowhere it says in the Old Testament; that Lucifer is a fallen angel; or even an angel. This is a myth in Christianity and the Muslims are borrowing this myth. Lucifer is a Latin name, not a Semitic name. How did a Latin name end up in Old Testament (King James Version); where all the other names are Semitic. For this myth in Christianity see the above article! >D >D >D
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Besides, "shaytaan" comes from the root sheen-tay-noon along with other words. "Shaat", if I'm not mistaken, means 'burnt' or 'to become burnt' and "shatan" means rope.
Peace,
Wikipedia is not a real good source for classic arabic linguistics. ShatanaSheen-Tha-Nun comes from the root word ShattaSheen-Tha
Shatta Means To be far off, wrong anyone, long rope; Shattan preposterous thing far from the truth
Derived rootword Shatana means become remote or far from the truth and from the mercy of God; Shaitan A being or thing/deed that is far from the truth but also turns others away from it, Who burns with anger and hatred and is lost, rebelious being or state of mind, leader, noisy, evil, troublesome person.
The idea that it refers to something burning is a created meaning under influence of traditions.
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Hello Arnold,
Wikipedia is not a real good source for classic arabic linguistics. ShatanaSheen-Tha-Nun comes from the root word ShattaSheen-Tha
Says who? How can you tell a word being classical or not from Arabic roots? Which classical Arabic dictionary are you referencing and how old are these? The word classical is a characteristic of Greek and/or Roman origins and more so dates back to Sanscrit.
If you've studied Zoroastrianism, you'll know that Judaism and Christianity have much been derived and influenced from it, and Islam stepping up from them combined. The Quran, being an ancient book itself, is basically a hogwash of all these influences, including poetry, tales, myths, events, etc., collected together from various parchements found all over the place and some oral narrations and then finally compiled by the hands of several men. No wonder there are inconsistencies, contradictions, repetitions, unclear passages, etc. found in this confused book. Surely, one can pick and choose sentences from hither and thither to bring about invented stories (and this tactic can be played on any book) but the fact still remains as mentioned.
Derived rootword Shatana means become remote or far from the truth and from the mercy of God; Shaitan A being or thing/deed that is far from the truth but also turns others away from it, Who burns with anger and hatred and is lost, rebelious being or state of mind, leader, noisy, evil, troublesome person.
We all know that and agree to this common belief of what shaitaan is. Whatever root you choose, the word shaytaan has nothing to do with rope. Besides, my main concern was the following
Islam has been totaly infected and taken over by Persian-Jewish mythology and people have lost and ignored the Arabic that is used.
This one specially caught my attention and threw me off-guard. The Quran has been for many years and more recently being infected by latest "viruses and bacteria" (innovations) that even history is embarrassed.
Peace,
The way Muhammed's people understood it is to be seen by their actions, and so i believe they approached the same as me, as their actions were about human-rights and not worship. The problem only was that after 50 years 80% of all the muslims were non-arabs and so an elite formed that learned arabic and determined what the people should know or not. Also Christians, Jews, Persians and Pagans used their ideas of religion on the Quran, and these formed small sects and schools. Sunnism of today was one of those sects, that was small in the first ages of Islam, but by support of the elite became the main-stream Islam interpretation. Sunnism comes from different schools who used Christians, Jews, Persians and Pagans beliefs to form there version of Islam. Because these schools allowed an elite to form, instead of pure equality, they were supported by the kings and elite. The same happened in Christianity where the Catholic-sect became the main-stream as they were supported by the emporer.
I recommend you to read these 2 books to understand the Quran and it's history better
http//www.tolueislam.com/Bazm/Wadud/AW_caq_3.htm
http//www.ourbeacon.com/TRUE%20HISTORY.pdf
http//www.tolueislam.com/Parwez/ICR/ICR.htm
Worshipping and servicing idols has, throughout history and even today, been an essential foundation to bring about surmountable belief systems. Reading just a few passages of tolueislam link, it seems that the author got the history bungled up and the article is not at all an intelligent one.
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Salaam Danish,
I am thick and don't understand what is going on. 'Iblis' is a proper noun and 'satan' in Semitic language is a noun. 'Iblis' and 'satan' are not the same. This concept in Christianity that they are one and same is a myth. 'Danish' is proper noun and 'good' is a noun. When someone says Danish is good, that doesn't make 'Danish' and 'good' interchangeable. So as a noun what does 'satan' means. The basic definition of 'satan' is evil and/or adversary in Semitic language. So how does Koran describes 'satan'
It was We Who created human, and We know what dark suggestions his soul makes to him for We are nearer to him than (his) jugular vein (16) chapter 50.
THE HUMANS
Chapter 114, Verses 6With the name of God, the unconditional Mercy, the eternal Mercy!
Say, ?I seek refuge with the Rabb (Cherisher) of humans (1), the King of humans (2), the god of humans (3); -
?From the mischief of the whisperer (of evil), who withdraws (after his whisper) (4), - (The same) who whispers into the hearts of humans (5), among the jinns and among the humans? (6).
THE DAYBREAK OR DAWN
Chapter 113, Verses 5With the name of God, the unconditional Mercy, the eternal Mercy!
Say, ?I seek refuge with the Rabb (Lord) of the dawn (1). From the mischief of created things (2); from the mischief of darkness as it overspreads (3); from the mischief of those who practice secret arts (conniving) (4); and from the mischief of the envious one as he practices envy? (5).
Note As soon as some humans get up in the mornings, the first thing they do is start planning evil, conniving evil, planting evil??.
Nowhere it says in the Koran, that Iblis is a fallen angel; or even an angel. Nowhere it says in the Old Testament; that Lucifer is a fallen angel; or even an angel. This is a myth in Christianity and the Muslims are borrowing this myth from them. Lucifer is a Latin name, not a Semitic name. How did a Latin name end up in Old Testament (King James Version); where all the other names are Semitic. For this myth in Christianity see the above article! >D >D >D
The concept in both Judaism and Islam of 'satan' is same, basically this evil and/or adversary only has the 'power of suggestion'' and/or "power of whisper". One should not underestimate the so called, ?power of suggestion?, the Nazi war propaganda machine. Hitler didn?t kill six million Jews, he killed ninety million humans. He wanted to annihilate the whole human race, but the Aryan race. I am sure that you know the origin of the Aryan race.
As you rightly say that the concept of Satan in Christianity differs from the concept in both Judaism and Islam. The Christianity concept is borrowed from the concept of dualism in Zoroastrianism (Aryans). In Christianity, Lucifer and Satan are same and interchangeable. Also, because of dualism, Satan is equal to God and the Satan is presently ruling the earth. Thus, the Christian's Lord Prayer, "... thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven". Jesus came as God on earth to defeat Satan, but unfortunately lost the battle, got trapped in hell for 3 days by the King (Lucifer) and finally managed to escape by the crutches of Satan. Jesus (God) will come back and fight a final war with Lucifer, called the war of Armageddon. He will finally defeat Satan, and establish his Kingdom on earth as it is in heaven. In this final war, some say that Jesus will kill 80% of world population, while others say that less than 200,000 will survive of the total world population. This concept in Christianity is called the Rapture.
Mohamed
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Salaam Aladdin,
I'm not sure what all that was about or perhaps you got the wrong guy. ??? But agree with you nevertheless.
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Salaam,
If Satan is NOT an angel or a being as a lot of you here believe, can you please tell me what this ayat means then
1850 We said to the angels, "Fall prostrate before Adam." They fell prostrate, except Satan. He became a jinn, for he disobeyed the order of His Lord. Will you choose him and his descendants as lords instead of Me, even though they are your enemies? What a miserable substitute!
1850
Wa-ith qulna lilmala-ikati osjudoo li-adama fasajadoo illa ibleesa kana mina aljinni fafasaqa AAan amri rabbihi afatattakhithoonahu wathurriyyatahu awliyaa min doonee wahum lakum AAaduwwun bi/sa lilththalimeena badalanNow I am not sure if it says "except Satan" or if it is conveyed that way, but if thats the case, isn't it a bit redundant to even mention Satan at all? Its like how a lot of Muslims are confused on whether Satan is an angel or Jinn, since their hadiths state that angels are made of light and they believe that Angels can't disobey God. So what does this ayat state in regards to Satan?
Wa Salaam
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Salaam,
1850
Wa-ith qulna lilmala-ikati osjudoo li-adama fasajadoo illa ibleesa kana mina aljinni fafasaqa AAan amri rabbihi afatattakhithoonahu wathurriyyatahu awliyaa min doonee wahum lakum AAaduwwun bi/sa lilththalimeena badalanNow I am not sure if it says "except Satan" or if it is conveyed that way, but if thats the case, isn't it a bit redundant to even mention Satan at all? Its like how a lot of Muslims are confused on whether Satan is an angel or Jinn, since their hadiths state that angels are made of light and they believe that Angels can't disobey God. So what does this ayat state in regards to Satan?
Wa Salaam
Salaam,
I have highlighted the phrase in red for you, "... illa ibleesa kana mina aljinni ..", which says, ".... except Iblees who was from the jinns ....". Their is no "satan' mentioned in the above aya, but implied. Lots of different translations are available at the following site.
http//www.islamawakened.com/Quran/
The Semitic (Hebrew, Aramaic, Arabic) word "satan" is a noun and/or adjective, means "evil and/or adversary". The satan which exists within our selves and within others. It is the evil within us, who is our adversary and with whom we are in constant struggle (jihad) to overcome. It is the jihad within our own selves to overcome our adversary and avoid evil. One can make a connection in OT, to Israel (Jacob) who struggles (jihads) to please God. Iblees is evil (satan), who defied God's direct command.
And (remember) when We said unto the angels Fall prostrate before Adam, and they fell prostrate, all save Iblis. He was of the jinn, so he rebelled against his Lord's command. Will ye choose him and his seed for your protecting friends instead of Me, when they are an enemy unto you? Calamitous is the exchange for evil-doers.
Check out the two implied meanings of "satan", evil and/or adversary in the above translation by Pickthal. This are the two most common meanings and of course it has other meanings too.
Hope this is helpful,
Mohamed
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Salaam All,
Below are some of the implied meanings of "satan' which is a noun and/or adjective, supplied by arnoldyasin
Peace,
Wikipedia is not a real good source for classic arabic linguistics. ShatanaSheen-Tha-Nun comes from the root word ShattaSheen-Tha
Shatta Means To be far off, wrong anyone, long rope; Shattan preposterous thing far from the truth
Derived rootword Shatana means become remote or far from the truth and from the mercy of God; Shaitan A being or thing/deed that is far from the truth but also turns others away from it, Who burns with anger and hatred and is lost, rebelious being or state of mind, leader, noisy, evil, troublesome person.
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Peace Aladdin,
Satan or Ibliz is not what really matters to me, but the fact that it is mentioned in the first place. God told all of them to prostrate, they all did, save Ibliz. Now the command was to the angels, therefore my understanding would be that Ibliz is an angel that didn't prostrate, based on how it is worded and the translations.
If satan is within us (psychological or however you guys mean it) then why, again, even mentions Iblis at all when the command is given to the angels. It's like saying, "God told the angels, prostrate towards adam. All did except Jericho, for he was a goat". Hope that makes sense and God Willing I will get the correct answer.
Peace