Wings?

aladdin

Salaam amuslim,

You are basically asking Islam 101 and Judaism 101. So I will answer your questions if I can, or try to find answer for you. But I will need some time to do this on a piece meal basis. To understand Islam, one has to understand Judaism as it is the root of Islam. So do some research on Judaism and see for yourself, how it differs from Christianity. I am sure that you will be amused and surprised. There is so much disinformation on Judaism. Remember Messiah Isa was a Jew and spoke Aramaic.

I see you call yourself a Muslim, which is so right as we are all Muslims

Stupid that everyone in his case is praising his particular opinion! If Islam means ?submission to God?; we all live and die in Islam.

Johann Wolfgang von Goethe.

Are familiar with

Goethe's 'Faust'?
Dante's 'Devine Comedy'?
Milton's 'Paradise Lost'?
Pullman's 'His Dark Materials'?

I believe that all the above deal on the concept of dualism.

Mohamed

amuslim

Peace amuslim,

What do you mean by asking Islam 101 and Judaism 101? I havent heard of those things that you listed. But back to the structure and the instruction from God, why would we need to analyze something so hard to produce that result? I thought God made the Quran easy to understand?

No offense, but any piece of writing can have many if not infinite interpretations, I am just trying to find the one that is the most straightforward and down to earth here. Of course if we were to talk about us "lowering our wings" it makes sense not to take that literally, but something like this IMO is straightforward, that is to my understanding right now. Don't take it that I am trying to shoot down your idea/belief on Shaitan, I am just trying to understand the concept.

One question though, how does this have anything to do with our subject? I was a bit confused, was this aimed at me?

I see you call yourself a Muslim, which is so right as we are all Muslims

Allah knows best

aladdin

Salam amuslin,

Sorry I offended you, though I didn't intend to.

If satan is within us (psychological or however you guys mean it) then why, again, even mentions Iblis at all when the command is given to the angels. It's like saying, "God told the angels, prostrate towards adam. All did except Jericho, for he was a goat". Hope that makes sense and God Willing I will get the correct answer.

In Islam the above is very basic, thus Islam 101 (maybe it is American terminology, which I assumed everyone knew). My apologizes. Again the Semetic terms, Islam, Salam, Mu'salam (Muslim) have deep meanings, but at the same time these terms are basic too.

Stupid that everyone in his case is praising his particular opinion! If Islam means ?submission to God?; we all live and die in Islam.

Johann Wolfgang von Goethe.

Again my apologizes for any unintended remarks, for which I seek forgiveness. Basically, I meant that according to the above quote of Goethe, we are all Muslims and I was welcoming you to the fold as to say. Though I was not making fun of you and my intention still is to explain on a piece meal basis, if you still want to.

Mohamed

savage_carrot

Peace amuslim,

It's like saying, "God told the angels, prostrate towards adam. All did except Jericho, for he was a goat". Hope that makes sense and God Willing I will get the correct answer.

I found that quote quite interesting )

You might find this thread helpful. If you do a search I think there are some others that might help you further.

aladdin

Peace amuslim,

It's like saying, "God told the angels, prostrate towards adam. All did except Jericho, for he was a goat". Hope that makes sense and God Willing I will get the correct answer.

I found that quote quite interesting

You might find this thread helpful. If you do a search I think there are some others that might help you further.

Salaam All,

Why Iblis (a jinn) was with the angels. Iblis was a very good abd (servant, devoted, who loved God and walked in the straight path) of God. So to make the story short God brought Iblis close to him just like the angels. God knew Iblis' nature, knew him well and God has his own plan. Thus the name Iblis, which means despair. Iblis refused God's direct command and was cast out from the garden. There is a sect in Iraq, (half Christians, half Muslims) which worship God and almost worship Iblis by keeping him in very high esteem. To them Iblis was such a good abd that he understood God's wish and willing took the fall, as it was in God's plan, thus fulfilling the Master's wishes. As the saying goes, your wish is my command!
Dante's Inferno Hell Test is based on Dante's Divine Comedy, which was written in the early 1300s and is a classic in Christianity. So are Milton's Paradises Lost written in 1600s and Goethe's Faust in 1909, which again are both classic in Christianity. The recent work of Pullman's His Dark Materials is based on Milton's Paradise Lost.
Culturally and linguistically there are two types of major religions in the world.

a. Semitic (children of Noah) based such as Judaism and Islam, who believe in monotheism of God and believe that God is not a human being. Their language is Semitic and their Scripture is written in Semitic language too, both the Talmud (TaNaKh) and the Koran.

b. Zoroastrianism based such as Hindus, Buddhist and Christians, who believe in the concept of trinity and believe that God is a human being. Believe in virgin births, resurrection and dualism of God, believe in 'God the evil and God the good'. Their languages are driven from Sanskrit, such as Koin the version of Greek used to write the New Testament and the Septuagint. The Zoroastrian are Iranians the Aryans, which Hitler was hell bent to create as the only race in the world. The symbol of Nazism called the swastika was the symbol of Mithra the Aryan/Zoroastrian God.

Mohamed

savage_carrot

Peace amuslim,

It's like saying, "God told the angels, prostrate towards adam. All did except Jericho, for he was a goat". Hope that makes sense and God Willing I will get the correct answer.

I found that quote quite interesting )

You might find this thread helpful. If you do a search I think there are some others that might help you further.

Salaam All,

Why Iblis (a jinn) was with the angels. Iblis was a very good abd (servant, devoted, who loved God and walked in the straight path) of God. So to make the story short God brought Iblis close to him just like the angels. God knew Iblis' nature, knew him well and God has his own plan. Thus the name Iblis, which means despair. Iblis refused God's direct command and was cast out from the Garden. There is a sect in Iraq, (half Christians, half Muslims) which worship God and almost worship Iblis by keeping him in very high esteem. To them Iblis was such a good abd that he understood God's wish and willing took the fall, as it was in God's plan, thus fulfilling the Master's wishes. As the saying goes, your wish is my command!
Dante's Inferno Hell Test is based on Dante's Divine Comedy, which was written in the early 1300s and is a classic in Christianity. So are Milton's Paradises Lost written in 1600s and Goethe's Faust in 1909, which again are both classic in Christianity. The recent work of Pullman's His Dark Materials is based on Milton's Paradise Lost.
Culturally and linguistically there are two types of major religions in the world.

a. Semitic (children of Noah) based such as Judaism and Islam, who believe in monotheism of God and believe that God is not a human being. Their language is Semitic and their Scripture is written in Semitic language too, both the Talmud (TaNaKh) and the Koran.

b. Zoroastrianism based such as Hindus, Buddhist and Christians, who believe in the concept of trinity and believe that God is a human being. Believe in virgin births, resurrection and dualism of God, believe in 'God the evil and God the good'. Their languages are driven from Sanskrit, such as Koin the version of Greek used to write the New Testament and the Septuagint. The Zoroastrian are Iranians the Aryans, which Hitler was hell bent to create as the only race in the world. The symbol of Nazism called the swastika was the symbol of Mithra the Aryan/Zoroastrian God.

Mohamed

I don't understand? Why would you use my post to amuslim as a jumping board for these points? In any case, let me now give my thoughts on them

My thoughts about Iblis et al can probably read in the thread I posted.
I used to go to this Karaoke place a few years back. There was this one dude who would only choose Led Zeppelin songs and whip up a 'packed with some facts, useful/useless information (depending on the crowds perspective) and personal thoughts' speech just before starting the song, about the band and that particular song...occasionally touching other subjects. We used to find it quite odd at times.
I normally don't go with the tag lines for major religions.

a) Righto, I read that the Talmud was chockful of rabbanical hadiths.

b) Okay.

Peace.

aladdin

Peace amuslim,

It's like saying, "God told the angels, prostrate towards adam. All did except Jericho, for he was a goat". Hope that makes sense and God Willing I will get the correct answer.

I found that quote quite interesting )

You might find this thread helpful. If you do a search I think there are some others that might help you further.

Salaam All,

Why Iblis (a jinn) was with the angels. Iblis was a very good abd (servant, devoted, who loved God and walked in the straight path) of God. So to make the story short God brought Iblis close to him just like the angels. God knew Iblis' nature, knew him well and God has his own plan. Thus the name Iblis, which means despair. Iblis refused God's direct command and was cast out from the Garden. There is a sect in Iraq, (half Christians, half Muslims) which worship God and almost worship Iblis by keeping him in very high esteem. To them Iblis was such a good abd that he understood God's wish and willing took the fall, as it was in God's plan, thus fulfilling the Master's wishes. As the saying goes, your wish is my command!
Dante's Inferno Hell Test is based on Dante's Divine Comedy, which was written in the early 1300s and is a classic in Christianity. So are Milton's Paradises Lost written in 1600s and Goethe's Faust in 1909, which again are both classic in Christianity. The recent work of Pullman's His Dark Materials is based on Milton's Paradise Lost.
Culturally and linguistically there are two types of major religions in the world.

a. Semitic (children of Noah) based such as Judaism and Islam, who believe in monotheism of God and believe that God is not a human being. Their language is Semitic and their Scripture is written in Semitic language too, both the Talmud (TaNaKh) and the Koran.

b. Zoroastrianism based such as Hindus, Buddhist and Christians, who believe in the concept of trinity and believe that God is a human being. Believe in virgin births, resurrection and dualism of God, believe in 'God the evil and God the good'. Their languages are driven from Sanskrit, such as Koin the version of Greek used to write the New Testament and the Septuagint. The Zoroastrian are Iranians the Aryans, which Hitler was hell bent to create as the only race in the world. The symbol of Nazism called the swastika was the symbol of Mithra the Aryan/Zoroastrian God.

Mohamed

I don't understand? Why would you use my post to amuslim as a jumping board for these points? In any case, let me now give my thoughts on them

My thoughts about Iblis et al can probably read in the thread I posted.
I used to go to this Karaoke place a few years back. There was this one dude who would only choose Led Zeppelin songs and whip up a 'packed with some facts, useful/useless information (depending on the crowds perspective) and personal thoughts' speech just before starting the song, about the band and that particular song...occasionally touching other subjects. We used to find it quite odd at times.
I normally don't go with the tag lines for major religions.

a) Righto, I read that the Talmud was chockful of rabbanical hadiths.

b) Okay.

Peace.

Salaam savage_carrot,

I am sorry that I offended you. I was not replying to your post. I was replying to an earlier post by amuslim, who asked me this direct question based on our conversation, which I quote for you

Peace Aladdin,

Satan or Ibliz is not what really matters to me, but the fact that it is mentioned in the first place. God told all of them to prostrate, they all did, save Ibliz. Now the command was to the angels, therefore my understanding would be that Ibliz is an angel that didn't prostrate, based on how it is worded and the translations.

If satan is within us (psychological or however you guys mean it) then why, again, even mentions Iblis at all when the command is given to the angels. It's like saying, "God told the angels, prostrate towards adam. All did except Jericho, for he was a goat". Hope that makes sense and God Willing I will get the correct answer.

Peace

As you can see that his question was directed to me, "Peace Aladdin, ....". Again if I have offended you, I ask forgiveness and seek forgiveness.

Ameen, Ya'Rabbi!

Mohamed

savage_carrot

No, you haven't offended me at all. Just curious. Next time when replying to someone, please just quote them directly or the other posters tend to get confused as to why their post was quoted in your reply. Peace )

amuslim

Peace Aladdin and Savage_Carrot,

Thanks savage_carrot for the link. It is really long and I just read the first and a few of the last pages and I got a good idea from both sides right now. I will address my questions below.

No offense taken Aladdin, I was just confused. Although I whole heartedly agree with that quote, I wasn't sure why you brought it up in the first place or if you were even talking to me. No hard feelings. Yes I would like to continue this discussion, I like to see all points in the matter.

Why Iblis (a jinn) was with the angels. Iblis was a very good abd (servant, devoted, who loved God and walked in the straight path) of God. So to make the story short God brought Iblis close to him just like the angels. God knew Iblis' nature, knew him well and God has his own plan. Thus the name Iblis, which means despair. Iblis refused God's direct command and was cast out from the garden. There is a sect in Iraq, (half Christians, half Muslims) which worship God and almost worship Iblis by keeping him in very high esteem. To them Iblis was such a good abd that he understood God's wish and willing took the fall, as it was in God's plan, thus fulfilling the Master's wishes. As the saying goes, your wish is my command!
Dante's Inferno Hell Test is based on Dante's Divine Comedy, which was written in the early 1300s and is a classic in Christianity. So are Milton's Paradises Lost written in 1600s and Goethe's Faust in 1909, which again are both classic in Christianity. The recent work of Pullman's His Dark Materials is based on Milton's Paradise Lost.
Culturally and linguistically there are two types of major religions in the world.

a. Semitic (children of Noah) based such as Judaism and Islam, who believe in monotheism of God and believe that God is not a human being. Their language is Semitic and their Scripture is written in Semitic language too, both the Talmud (TaNaKh) and the Koran.

b. Zoroastrianism based such as Hindus, Buddhist and Christians, who believe in the concept of trinity and believe that God is a human being. Believe in virgin births, resurrection and dualism of God, believe in 'God the evil and God the good'. Their languages are driven from Sanskrit, such as Koin the version of Greek used to write the New Testament and the Septuagint. The Zoroastrian are Iranians the Aryans, which Hitler was hell bent to create as the only race in the world. The symbol of Nazism called the swastika was the symbol of Mithra the Aryan/Zoroastrian God.

Mohamed

Almost worship Ibliz? That's Gods creation. Was worship the right word? Or is it like Sunnis how they venerate Muhammad? Also, does this mean that Ibliz is a characteristic/attribute and not a being in itself?
I have heard of Dantes Inferno but never read it.

a. Semitic...this is what I don't understand. I know the Semetic issue, but why is it that only the Jews use this word for themselves? I remember hearing the media saying that Hezbollah made "anti-semetic" remarks. I wasn't wrong for laughing at that, was I? Also I agree with savage_carrot, I thought the Talmud was a bunch of "hadiths"? They even talk bad about Isa!

b. I didn't know that those three religions came out of Zoroastrianism, thanks for that. Also, the swastika is not unique to only that, but also Native Americans. They have that symbol as well.

My thoughts about Iblis et al can probably read in the thread I posted.

Can you provide the link to your post there? Theres 39 pages and it is hard to find.

Thank you for the participation, both of you. I would like to move the convo into the other thread if you two don't mind? Would be better organized IMO.

Peace

aladdin

Peace Aladdin and Savage_Carrot,

Almost worship Ibliz? That's Gods creation. Was worship the right word? Or is it like Sunnis how they venerate Muhammad? Also, does this mean that Ibliz is a characteristic/attribute and not a being in itself?

I was not implying either Sunni or Shia. Iblees is a proper noun and he was a jinn. In the post provided by Savage_Carrot read my take on jinns on page 39.

I have heard of Dantes Inferno but never read it.

He gets the idea from the Koran but does not give credit to Koran. In fact he uses very abusive language for both Muhammad and his cousin Ali.

3 a. Semitic...this is what I don't understand. I know the Semetic issue, but why is it that only the Jews use this word for themselves? I remember hearing the media saying that Hezbollah made "anti-Semitic" remarks. I wasn't wrong for laughing at that, was I? Also I agree with savage_carrot, I thought the Talmud was a bunch of "hadiths"? They even talk bad about Isa!

I believe that the English speaking media don't understand Semitic. There is a big difference between "anti-Zionism" and "anti-Semitic". Both the Jewish race and the Arabian race are from Semite, from Nova's son Sem. Though not all Jews who belong to the Jewish religion are Semitic, just like all Muslims are not Semitic either. One or bunch of Arabs can be "anti-Semitic", but not all, it will be being against one own self. One or bunch of Americans can be "anti-American, but not all.

I have met Jews who hold nabi and rasool Isa in very high esteem.

3 b. I didn't know that those three religions came out of Zoroastrianism, thanks for that. Also, the swastika is not unique to only that, but also Native Americans. They have that symbol as well.

My thoughts about Iblis et al can probably read in the thread I posted.

Can you provide the link to your post there? Theres 39 pages and it is hard to find.

Thank you for the participation, both of you. I would like to move the convo into the other thread if you two don't mind? Would be better organized IMO.

Peace

Salaam amuslim,

I have answered your minor queries under and in your above quotation. Yes, it is time to move on!

Mohamed

savage_carrot

Peace amuslim,

Can you provide the link to your post there? Theres 39 pages and it is hard to find.

The thread is pretty long but then if you're really interested, you'd need to wade through it I guess. If I ever see that topic again, it'll be too soon ;D

I would like to move the convo into the other thread if you two don't mind? Would be better organized IMO.

Sure, if you have any specific questions, I'll link you if I can.

arnoldyasin

Peace,

amuslim and alladin, i both recommend you to read my article on jinn and shaitan and iblis as these terms can only be explained through linguistics and not by their fixed titles as you two are doing now

http//19.org/index.php?id=91,417,0,0,1,0

aladdin

Peace,

amuslim and alladin, i both recommend you to read my article on jinn and shaitan and iblis as these terms can only be explained through linguistics and not by their fixed titles as you two are doing now

http//19.org/index.php?id=91,417,0,0,1,0

Salaam arnoldyasin,

I have visited your site, keep up the good work. Here is my take on Iblis and jinn.

Iblis was not mentioned in Koran as an angel but the Koran mentioned him along with the angels and he received an order from God that was given to the angels. He is one who had a high status and is fallen. He does not have power except on those that allow him to have power over them. This is how I understand the statements of the Koran about him. He probably a non-entity by now.

And on jinn...

Question

I am completely ignorant on the issue of Jinn here and everywhere else in the Quran however. What is their significance/meaning? How do progressives interpret Jinn?

Answer

Imagine Muhammad had to explain Jinn to a mindset of 1400 years ago, when people considered the world is flat. In English definition, we just had the translation for this word about 50 years ago. Could Jinn be equated to Extraterrestrials (ET). God always gives us things in pairs, for example, 'ins - human' and 'jinn - et'; day and night; woman and man; and asks us not to compare these pairs as they are not alike. But look at the advantages in them.

If one compares day and night, what does one sees. The day could be white and the night could be black. While, the could be day scouring heat and the night could be beautiful breeze. This is comparing them as opposite poles. Is this comparison fair? No, this is a linear thinking, not multi dimensional. We are not looking at the advantages given to them. Now let us make a circle of the day and night, keeping one on the left and the other on the right. Now let us see how these two merge into each other and how many different shades are in them.

The South Park is created, written and voiced by Matt Stone and Trey Parker, and recently these two were interviewed on TV. One of them said, that he believes in God, but can't understand that the Kingdom of God is sooo, soooo vast, why we are the only intelligent being in this vast Kingdom. Now let us take the pair of ins and jinn and make a circle of this pair. Try to imagine how many shades are in them. How many different creations are in them and realize how vast is God Kingdom. How many shades are in woman and man.

Link http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=1914.570

Thanks, Mohamed

arnoldyasin

Peace,

And this is exactly the problem. The term 'malikah' means someting in control ans authority. The idea of fallen 'angel' is non-quranic. Iblis means 'something desperate and frustrated' and doesn't refer to an entity, but to our desperate side. That is why people are never called an iblis in the Quran, as this would be the same as calling you a leg or arm, as iblis is a side of man. Jinn is not a title of a species but a description of something hidden or rarely seen. Jinn is not the name of a species. You hold on to the fixed titles giving to arabic terms, and by thus you end up with non-Quranic ideas. When you translate the terms malikah, jinn, iblis and shaitan, it all makes sense

Jinn is Arabic for things/beings not seen/hidden/concealed/rarely seen. When I would say walking beings, does this point out to humans alone? No, every thing that walks fall under this description and isn?t a fixed title that points out to one species alone. The word human directly points out to one species and cannot be used for any other creature on earth. The word jinn is the same as the description walking beings, it doesn?t point out to one thing alone, as a lot of things are not seen/hidden. The fixed meaning was forced on the word over time, and dominates now the approach to the Quran. Even old scholars as Ibn Kathir who also point out that jinn is a description of several things and not one species, is ignored, even though he is one of the most quoted scholars in the sunni world.

The word jinn, doesn?t has a fixed meaning, as it is depended on the context of the verses. In the Quran we come across the meanings as ego, desires, fantasies, bad/evil thoughts, emotions as hate, anger. Humans living out of direct view of the more populated societies, as nomads, people living in jungles. People working behind the scenes in politics, rulers of nations or religious groups, intelligent people that live secluded. Monks, nuns, hermits. Bums, top criminals, people living maybe in a city, but are not part of its system. People living in secluded villages or societies and so on. People of the past, legends. Ancestors, imaginary idols, peerless people and so on.

Jinn= he/it concealed=covered with darkness (see also use in 676)=intense/confusing darkness=that which is concealed from man?s senses=rarely seen=things/beings that are hidden as for examples snakes.

So what is Iblis? What did all of these verses tell us where the term Iblis is used? It is called a malikah, one with authority, power and control. And in the context of these verses, the malikah here refer to the creation. So Iblis is part of the creation, Iblis means someone desperate, deprivation, hopelessness , frustration, Person of desperate character, struck dumb with despair. In 712 it refers to having false pride and thinking to be superior over other things. It is created to err in 716. It is the desperate side created inside man which has control and power over us=malikah, and will not bow to us, to help us reach a higher stage of existence. It is concealed from sense?s=jinn. It is referred as being made out of fire. Fire is a state of energy that can take large molecules and make them separate to react with others, and become smaller molecules. Also fire can spread uncontrollably and can almost use anything as fuel. Very interesting definition. It coincides perfectly with our desperate and frustrated side, which takes apart Truth and logic, mixes it with illusion. It can use almost anything to be ignited if we allow it. In a state of despair and frustration, anything can be used as a reason to be angry or sad. And when Iblis is in use, it is called shaitan, something that will distance us from God and our fulfillment, it is rebellious and our opponent, our enemy.

Iblis=Ibless its derived form "balasa" ( Baa Laam Seen) = which means deprivation/hopelessness/frustration/Person of desperate character/struck dumb with despair/who despaired/who became broken in spirit/mournful/who was perplexed and unable to see his way/who was prevented from attaining his wish/who became unable to prosecute his wish.

shaitan=rebel/opponent/distanced from Truth/God is mentioned when the evil/rebellious side of man=iblis is being used. So Iblis is used for explaining the desires, emotions that prevent them from choosing the right way, they are explained to what their position is in man. And shaitan is mentioned when these desires and emotions are used to prevent the human itself and others from choosing the right way of progress. Shaitan means Iblis is at work. This can be clearly seen by the next couple of verses, where the desperate side of men(Iblis), won?t pay any obedience to mankind(711), it explains it will not serve us. And the rebel side is used to lead people away, becoming distanced from God(shaitan)(720), and so here it explains the difference of Iblis and shaitan. Iblis is a title for our desperate side, shaitan just means something distanced from truth and God, it is not a title or another name for iblis. Iblis is a shaitan because it is distanced from God, and bad deeds are also shaitan, alcohol is shaitan, anyhting distanced from God is shaitan.

Shaitan=Shiin-Tay-Nun = become distant/far/remote, enter firmly / become firmly fixed therein / penetrate and be concealed, turn away in opposition (from direction/aim), devil, one excessively proud/corrupt, unbelieving/rebellious/insolent/audacious, rope, deep curved well, it burned, became burnt, serpent, any blamable faculty or power of a man, long rope, opponent, accuser, adversary.

Malik-ah= M-L-K= the one(s) in control/given control/in authority/in power. Normaly translated with ?angels?.

You see how the message becomes clear when you drop the fixed titles and just translate the arabic to what it means?

aladdin

Peace,

And this is exactly the problem. The term 'malikah' means something in control ans authority. The idea of fallen 'angel' is non-quranic.
Malik-ah= M-L-K= the one(s) in control/given control/in authority/in power. Normally translated with ?angels?.

You see how the message becomes clear when you drop the fixed titles and just translate the Arabic to what it means?

Salaam arnoldyasin,

I never said that Iblis was an angel.

Here is my earlier today's quote from above

"Iblis was not mentioned in Koran as an angel but the Koran mentioned him along with the angels and he received an order from God that was given to the angels. He is one who had a high status and is fallen. He does not have power except on those that allow him to have power over them. This is how I understand the statements of the Koran about him. He probably a non-entity by now."

And my earlier quote dated October 1, 2006 from the same thread on page 2

"Nowhere it says in the Koran, that Iblis was a fallen angel; or even an angel. Nowhere it says in the Old Testament; that Lucifer is a fallen angel; or even an angel. This is a myth in Christianity and the Muslims are borrowing this myth. Lucifer is a Latin name, not a Semitic name. How did a Latin name end up in Old Testament (King James Version); where all the other names are Semitic. For this myth in Christianity see the above article! > > >"

For this myth see my the long article I posted in this thread on page 2

114.001
114.001 Say I seek refuge with the Lord and Cherisher of Mankind,

114.002
114.002 The King (or Ruler) of Mankind,

114.003
114.003 The god (or judge) of Mankind,-

114.004
114.004 From the mischief of the Whisperer (of Evil), who withdraws (after his whisper),-

114.005
114.005 (The same) who whispers into the hearts of Mankind,-

114.006
114.006 Among Jinns and among men.

Al-Qur'an, 114.001-006 (An-Nas )

Text Copied from DivineIslam's Qur'an Viewer software v2.9

You see my friend, the only Malik mentioned in the verse is 114.002 is God, and no one else. The only One who is in control, authority and power is God and no one else. Since Malikas are near God and carry His authority, therefore they are called Malikas. Malika does not mean creation. Malikas don't have freewill as the jinn and the humans do, though the Malikas have hierarchy. Again the myth in Christianity; if angels don't have freewill than how did Lucifer sin?

The above whole chapter is on the definition of satan, which again I have posted this before, in this thread on page 3. Koran tells us that the jinns were created long, long time before the humans were created. Koran tells us for a long time, human was nobody, not even mentioned. Again, in Christianity, it is believed that humans are the only intelligent being created by God, because God is a human being. Man is central to Christianity, not to Islam.

So who is Iblis? He was God's best abd (this is the root and check out what it means in Semitic) for a long, long time, so God brought him near with the Malikas. When God created humans, He asked the Malikas to prostrate to Adam, all Malikas did without any question because they don't have freewill. The only one who refused was Iblis, as he was a jinn and had freewill. He was supposedly God's best abd, and according to his reasoning didn't God acknowledged this by bring him with the Malikas, so how can he prostrate to some new inferior creation. We Muslims believe that God knew that Iblis was not His best abd and by giving the command to the Malikas, he was exposing Iblis.

Has there not been over human a long period of time, when he was nothing - (not even) mentioned? (1) chapter 76.

He created insanah (human) from sounding clay like unto pottery (14), and He created jinnah (jinn) from fire free of smoke (15) Then which of the favors of Rabbkum (your Sustainer and Nurturer) will you deny? (16) chapter 55

(He is the) Rabb of the two Easts and Rabb of the two Wests (17) Then which of the favors of Rabbkum will you deny? (1 chapter 55.

Hope this is helpful,

Mohamed

arnoldyasin

Peace,

Mohammed, you focussed on one thing i said and ignored my whole message. Jinn is not a title of a species, so to believe jinns were created before the humans is non-quranic. Also the idea that malikah are some high creatures is also non-quranic. You hold on to fixed titles for your explanation and thus create a false idea of the Quranic message.

This is all non-Quranic as it is all based on fixed meanings of words. The meanings of the words are non-Quranic

So who is Iblis? He was God's best abd (this is the root and check out what it means in Semitic) for a long, long time, so God brought him near with the Malikas. When God created humans, He asked the Malikas to prostrate to Adam, all Malikas did without any question because they don't have freewill. The only one who refused was Iblis, as he was a jinn and had freewill. He was supposedly God's best abd, and according to his reasoning didn't God acknowledged this by bring him with the Malikas, so how can he prostrate to some new inferior creation. We Muslims believe that God knew that Iblis was not His best abd and by giving the command to the Malikas, he was exposing Iblis.

Nowhere does it say that Iblis was God's best abd. Nor does the term Iblis refer to abd. Sujood in arabic means prostrate as well as obeying. Malikah means something in control and authority and is also no fixed meaning of one species. In classic arabic it was used for powerfull humans and kings, forces of nature and higher beings. Adam comes from adami and means humankind. Iblis comes from balasa and means something frustrated. So it doesn't say at all that iblis was a jinn and he refused to bow down for adam with the angels. It says

That iblis=desperate side is a malikah=something in control and it is jinn=concealed for man's senses and that it doesn't sujood=obey adam=mankind . You see the difference between your explanation based on fixed meanings of the words and mine which is based on the linguistic meanings of the words?

When people keep hanging on to these fixed titles, they will remain blocked in understanding the Quran correctly. Everything in the Quran must be translated to their linguistic meaning connected with the root-word and not translated based on fixed meanings, where the meanings originate from non-Quranic dogma's.

This is my rendition of the verses

Verily We created you and gave you form and shape, and ordered the ones in power to serve Adam (mankind) in Homage; and they all bowed but the desperate and frustrated side (Iblis), who was not among those who being subservient (sujood) (served mankind for the better).
"What prevented you" (said God), "From being subservient
(sujood) to (Mankind) at My bidding?" "I (straying ego, desire) am better than him," said he. "You created me from fire, and him from inorganic matter."
So God said "Descend (to the lowest part of creation). You have no right to be insolent here. Go, and away; you are one of the damned." (In Djenna, evil and these destructive emotions are not present, on this high level of thinking and experiencing, and when the perfect society is attained)
"Grant me respite," said he, "till the raising of the dead (Use me to test mankind till the end of this Earth and the creation of the new universe)."
And God said "You have the respite."
"Since You led me into error (created me to err)," said the desperate and frustrated side of mankind(Iblis), "I shall lie in wait
for them along Your straight path.
And I shall come upon them from the front and behind, right and left; and You will not find among them many who would give thanks."
"Be gone," said (God), "contemptible and rejected! As for those who follow you (are driven by desires,lusts), I shall fill up Jahannam(state of misery) with all of you.
And you, O Mankind, and your spouse, live in Djenna (inner peace and perfect society) and eat your fill wheresoever you like, but do not approach this tree (deeds and thinking), or you will become iniquitous."
But the rebellious, the side distanced from progress (shaitan) suggested (evil) to them, in order to reveal their hidden parts of which they were not aware (till then), and said "Your Sustainer has forbidden you (to go near) this tree that you may not become ones in power or immortal."
Then he said to them on oath "I am your sincere advisor;"
And led them (to the thoughts) by deceit. When they tasted (the fruit/result) of the tree(deed) their disgrace became exposed to them; and they patched the leaves of the Hidden Garden (perfect consciousness and society) to hide it. And the Sustainer said to them "Did I not forbid you this tree (deed, thinking)? And I told you that the rebellious, the side distanced from progress (shaitan) (inner lusts, straying ego?s) was your open enemy.
They said "O our Sustainer, we have wronged ourselves. If You do not forgive us and have mercy upon us, we shall certainly be lost."
"Go," said God, "one the antagonist of the other, and live on the earth for a time ordained, and fend for yourselves.
You will live there, and there will you die," He said, "and be raised from there (On the Day of New Creation)."
O children of Adam, We have revealed to you a dress that would both hide your nakedness(weakness) and be an adornment, but the raiment of piety is best. This is one of the tokens of God You may haply reflect.
O sons of Adam, let not the opponent, rebellious, the side distanced from progress and from God (shaitan) beguile you as he did your parents out of Hidden Garden (perfect consciousness and society), and made them disrobe to expose their disgrace to them. For he and his host can see you from where you cannot see them. We have made the opponents, the ones distanced from righteousness, Truth, Reality, God, progress (shaitan) the friends of those who do not believe.
Mankind We fashioned from from sounding clay, out of dark inorganic matter (through Evolution),
As We fashioned the concealed (lusts, desires, rebellious, evil side, straying ego?s, prehistoric man)from man?s senses before from intense radiated fire (being designed to be the part of the human spirit).
But when your Lord said to the ones in control (powers of creation, from Laws of nature, to the smallest cells that make out your body) "I am verily going to create a human being from fermented clay dried tingling hard (through Evolution);
And when I have fashioned him and breathed into him of My spirit, submit (sujood) before him in homage (everything is made to serve mankind);"
The ones in control (powers of nature) all serve (sujood) in homage ( fulfilling their creation, serving God?s plan) 31. Except the desperate side(iblis). He refused to serve with the submitted (creation).
"How is it, O desperate and frustrated side(Iblis)," said (the Maintainer), "you did not join those who serve in homage?"
?How could I serve," said he, "before a mortal(one who has an end) whom You created from sounding clay out of inorganic matter (through Evolution)?"

unknownuser

This can be found in almost all dictionaries of Classic Arabic.

Should I treat all Classical Arabic dictionaries as 'Allah's' words and believe that the same word Shaitaan never existed in other languages such as Hebrew and therefore, take it as granted? I'm sure that Classical Arabic, as one of the Semitic languages, also has several meanings of each word. Shaitaan being derived from shaat to mean "long rope" is quite a stretch and has no connection.

http//www.psyche.com/psyche/lex/shaitan.html
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaitan
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satan

Salam,
I was reading through this thread and found it very interesting. My comment comes from the quote above and is directed at that statement.

Should I treat all Classical Arabic dictionaries as 'Allah's' words...

I would say, rather, that Allah used arabic and the dictionaries define the words he used.

....and believe that the same word Shaitaan never existed in other languages such as Hebrew

Actually the same word is used in Hebrew and in the Torah and in Psalms. Strong's numbers 07853 and 07854. (Numbers 2222, 2232; Psalms 3820, 7113, 1094, 10920, 10929.....there are other references in Zechariah, Samuel 1, Samuel 2, Kings 1, Chronicles 1, and Job).

Shaitaan being derived from shaat to mean "long rope" is quite a stretch and has no connection.

Actually I would say that a shaitan is an adversary as the definition stays the same through out the languages. I wouldn't say that there is "no connection" but at this time I don't see a solid connection. The argument used earlier that the word can mean distant from Allah might even work too. If one is being adverse to God's laws, for example, that person could be considered distant from God.

Just thought I'd add my thoughts to this particular comment.
Salam

aladdin

Salam Arnab,

Cool!

Mohamed

arnoldyasin

Peace,

Yes Arnab, i give the same examples in my article on jinn where i show that in the Bible, the word satan is also translated and not approached as a title for the devil. Satan in hebrew just means adversary or opponent. See part of my article

"Human emotions, bad and good, were personified into beings, mostly only as metaphors, which people started to believe as real existing separate entities, gods, idols. Man saw that these emotions had power on man. And were thus to believed as being real gods, idols as the god of love, lust, greed, compassion, hate, anger, strength; personifying human emotions. Things to be revered and worshipped. Humankind bowed to stars, fire, our own desires. Anything that looked to have influence on us. This concept of reverence was expelled from the monotheistic religions, and God was the only one accepted as being bowed too. So almost all idols were lost. God was the overall source of Power and Goodness. But not of evil, this had to be placed outside of God. Instead of accepting the evil as something inside of us. It was projected on mythical creatures, the old made up idols of evil. All other idols had lost their function, except for the personification of man?s own evil side.

As the ancient Jews and Nazareans (Christians) didn?t believe in a personified evil/rebel, as can been seen in the usage of the word shaitan and diabolos in the Bible. Where even the prophet David is called the shaitan(opponent) of Saul. Shaitan is sometimes even used for God(Chronicles 21 1-14, 2 Samuel 241-15) as being the Opponent of the rejecters of His revelations. By thus showing, the word was not used as a title, but as a normal word, just meaning opponent or slanderer, which could be applied to everything that fitted the meaning of the word. (See I Timothy 311, 2 Timothy 31 ? 3, Titus 23, John 670, Matt 1623, Acts 5 1- 11, Hebrews 214, Gen 31-5 ,Rev 129 , Rev 202 , S&H 56432 , Mis 1914, 1 Chron. 211; Job 16-12 Zech. 31-2).

This was also with the Zoroastrian faith, where evil and good where human qualities, balanced inside our soul and creation, where only in later generations they became real separate existing entities. When these faiths became assimilated into other cultures, as with the happened with the Jews during the Diaspora, they became acquainted with the Persian doctrine of opposites, which was already fully developed, where they copied the personification, and passed this partially on to the Christians. And thus the evil being the opposite of God. Where it only became a real doctrine when the Greek-Romans took over Christianity, they saw Jesus as the personified good, and the devil as the personified evil. They condemned all other personified emotions, except the evil side. This remained a real existing creature that lured people to evil, as this justified the Jesus is God-on-earth dogma as it needed an opposite for Jesus, which was also partially influenced by the deformed Zoroastrian faith, where these were the Logos(word) is the son of God(Mithra), and the duality of good and evil on earth, in Ormuzd and Ahriman, which only turned into deities hundreds of years after Zarathustra.

This Persian doctrine was also assimilated into the understanding of the Quran, as its converts mostly consisted of Christians, Zoroastrians and pagans, where these personifications were normal understandings and accepted by all. And again, when studying the mythical stories around Muhammed, people created again opposites by making Muhammed the personification of the good, and the devil again the personification of evil on earth. People fooling themselves with this Dualism which is an ancient left-over from polytheism. And by thus, creating stories around Muhammed to make him this personification of good, making him perfect and flawless, to fit this doctrine. As the ?devil? was the perfect evil, its opponent must be the direct opposite, the perfect flawless good."

unknownuser

Salam,
Well said arnoldyasin! very nice article. Thank you for sharing that with us. and thanks for the references. I didn't know that David was called the adversary of Saul. That just helps strengthen my understanding that "advesary" is probably the best definition of the word.

In my quest for understanding Arabic better I realized that you have to understand Hebrew and Aramaic as well....and even Ancient Hebrew....which lead me to an interesting site "The Ancient Hebrew Research Center"
It provides a foundation and a good start for understanding the primative Hebrew which sheds light on some of the definitions of contemparary Arabic and Hebrew. It also gives you an understanding as to why some words mean what they do today.

Salam