Beating Women
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peace BOOST )
What does this have to do with anything?
it has to do with the idea that men are protectors of women. Men were not created after women so they can't possibly be made for that purpose.
My husband would be my protector, yes. What were you thinking of?
OK. I thought you said all men are protectors of women.
do you live in this world?
Do you know that there was a girl with one hand who became the faster typer in the world? There are very few things in this world that are impossible. People put limits on themselves (like "i'm a woman so i cannot protect myself", which aren't necessarily there.
Again you, like bro johnny, go for either 100% or 0%. If you haven't noticed, nothing in life is like that. It's not that if i listen to my husband then i automatically become his servent. Do you listen to your parents? Are you their servent? Do you listen to your manager at work? Are you his servent? Do you obey laws? Are you a slave to your country? Do you play sports and follow rules? are you a servent to your coach or referree? I rest my case.
Your comparison of a husband with a referee is exactly what I have a problem with.
But maybe I should've asked questions first just to be sure of your thoughts on this.
So, why does the husband make rules? if he doesn't, then I suppose both agree to a certain set of rules?
There is nothing wrong with obeying your husband, but you should NOT obey him just because he is your husband. But either because you trust him to make a right decision about something or you aren't obeying him at all you are just following the rules you both agreed to. Agree?Obviously there ARE some things my husband would know better than me so i listen to him. Who talked about surviving or dying? Who talked about having my husband as my god? Again, why do you go to extremes?
I didn't say your husband is your God. I said your husband is not your god given protector. That has to do with my above point.
Easy, i'm a petite girl that could easily be physically over-powered. My husband (i would hope) would be stronger than me.
OK.
See, what's annoys me is when women say that men are "protectors of women" so women have this natural need to obey men because whatever men do is best for them. I hope you agree that that's not the case.oh so hypothetically speaking since i'm not a whore and don't dress like one either, if i started to dress like a prostitute and my husband tells me don't go out like that, do i listen to him or no? and if i do, does that make me his slave?
Whores and prostitutes are making this too complicated (you'd think they'd do the opposite).
My point was that you and your husband got married because you had similar views on things. Niether of you has any right to get upset or force your partner to change unless they do something that wasn't part of the plan.
If I married a whore, and she turns out to be this really modest, pious person, I'd be pissed, wouldn't I? I have every right to break the relationship.
Both spouses set the rules, and both should follow them. Niether has authority over the other. Correct?Well, i guess you didn't really read my post then. Because i specifically said it is very important to choose wisely and make sure we agree on basics. I also said if a person was just abusive i'd have to just leave him. And if he was wahabi and wanted me to be one too, i wouldn't marry him to begin with. So, yes i HAVE to listen to my husband. But my husband would have to be a believer or else he WOULDN'T be my husband. If i can't honor him like he needs to be honored, then i must leave him. Better than staying in a relationship where we will both disrespect and disgrace each other.
You said that we should choose wisely.
But isn't it true that no matter how careful we are with something, we are bound to make a few mistakes? and aren't there dishonest people who don't show their true colors until after you've vowed to spend the rest of your life with thm?
If your husband was abusive, you leave him. But then why does your husband have to beat you when you are abusive?
and FYI,
I think there's a myth that men are the stronger sex, and so women cannot abuse men. They can, and they do. Men are not always the abusers. The man is not always the superior partner. Right?You don't have to beat anyone. It's not mandatory. And it's not for a woman who forgot sugar in your coffee. And its not for a man who would beat his wife if she forgot sugar in his coffee
But it's still bad advice. Beating your friend, your wife, your husband, your child, doesn't amount to anything.
And I'm telling you, that it is very easy to abuse this advice or command or whatever it is. Making bad coffee when your husband wanted good coffee is disobeying him, isn't it? -
PEace Bro Phoenix
What does this have to do with anything?
My husband would be my protector, yes. What were you thinking of?
do you live in this world?
Again you, like bro johnny, go for either 100% or 0%. If you haven't noticed, nothing in life is like that. It's not that if i listen to my husband then i automatically become his servent. Do you listen to your parents? Are you their servent? Do you listen to your manager at work? Are you his servent? Do you obey laws? Are you a slave to your country? Do you play sports and follow rules? are you a servent to your coach or referree? I rest my case.Obviously there ARE some things my husband would know better than me so i listen to him. Who talked about surviving or dying? Who talked about having my husband as my god? Again, why do you go to extremes?
Easy, i'm a petite girl that could easily be physically over-powered. My husband (i would hope) would be stronger than me.
I know it is for my own good. but many feminists say that is "unfair" why don't men just behave, etc etc. If you read my post carefully i said we must go by what reality is and not what we think is "fair and unfair" as feminists claim.oh so hypothetically speaking since i'm not a whore and don't dress like one either, if i started to dress like a prostitute and my husband tells me don't go out like that, do i listen to him or no? and if i do, does that make me his slave?
Well, i guess you didn't really read my post then. Because i specifically said it is very important to choose wisely and make sure we agree on basics. I also said if a person was just abusive i'd have to just leave him. And if he was wahabi and wanted me to be one too, i wouldn't marry him to begin with. So, yes i HAVE to listen to my husband. But my husband would have to be a believer or else he WOULDN'T be my husband. If i can't honor him like he needs to be honored, then i must leave him. Better than staying in a relationship where we will both disrespect and disgrace each other.You don't have to beat anyone. It's not mandatory. And it's not for a woman who forgot sugar in your coffee. And its not for a man who would beat his wife if she forgot sugar in his coffee.
That was one hell fo a reply dear sister rotfl rotfl rotfl
I bet many mens can't come up with a reply as you did
Take care
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See dear sister
many think excusting Saddam is unfair, indeed even my wife think the same and I had a huge argument with her yesterday in regards to how dare she defends a tyrant who killed zillions
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peace BOOST it has to do with the idea that men are protectors of women. Men were not created after women so they can't possibly be made for that purpose.OK.
you just shot yourself in the foot really, you said that men can't be protectors to women because they were not created after the women, based on your statement, then
Because men were created before women (Adam was created before his partner) then men are protectors of women
Thanks for the laugh Walid, you just made a joke of yourself
Salam
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peace Ahmed,
I didn't say men were created before women. They were created (or should I say evolved) at the same time.
Your very welcome, Ahmed.
FYI, spell my name like this "waleed" if you don't mind (that's how I spell it). For a second I thought you were replying to someone else. -
peace bro phoenix
i think you should just drop the who was created before who argument because it really has no bearing on the topic at all. nobody said man's sole purpose in life is to protect women so this is all irrelevent. oh and i'd suggest you ex-nay on the whole prostitute thing. insert foot in mouth.
it seems to me you keep reading too much into my posts. you need to talk to me and not at me. i'm a very strong young woman by the way. just because i will serve honor and respect my husband like the majority of the world does with the exception of a few lesbian feminists, does not make me this weak pathetic creature like you imagine.
marriage is not a friendship. my husband is not my buddy living with me. We each have responsibilities that we must carry out. 434 clearly states that women must be obedient to their husbands. Elhamdulillah i am a Submitter and i will continue to submit to the God and not be so arrogant as to think that I know better than the One who Created little tiny me.
i think the major issue here is you go by what YOU think is right. you fit the quran to your liking and whatever doesn't fit you make it fit by choosing something that makes more sense to you. Or you throw it away altogether. but we as submitters can't pick and choose verses my brother. You mentioned before on this thread that you think your logic is infallible. your subjective, faulty logic becomes higher than the God like that. and when i say "you" i mean everybody. Nobody in this world is perfect. you logic is part and parcel of you. as a submitter, you need to mold yourself to fit the quran's standards - even if it doesn't currently make sense to you.
Let me give you an example. In the u.s. having your grown kids stay with you till they marry and pay for everything even if they have a job would be considered archaic, bad parenting and completely illogical behavior. In Egypt, having your 18 yr old daughter pay for college or find a job and definitely move out of the family home, would be considered completely irrational pig-headed heartless behavior. See how subjective "logic" is? What is rational to you may be totally irrational to me. That's why we must lean on our Creator to guide us.
Anyways, best wishes to you and everyone here for the New Year! D
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Peace bro Ahmed,
Happy Happy New Year to you and your family!
I want to thank you for opening my eyes, brother. I'm beginning to question alot of things i just took for granted, maybe because i just wanted to believe they were true. I didn't want to believe that the God would give my future husband the right to beat me. But now because of the knowledge you gave me, I realized this verse isn't even talking about me, insha-Allah. This is the major problem all of these brothers on this thread still have. They still believe it condones domestic violence, which is what the enemies of islam want us to believe. So our reaction is to run away from the verse. Try to find a new meaning while we know none fit. Call it "separate from" when there is no word "from" there. Or call it have "make up sex" even though there is no basis for such a translation. Or just say it's illogical and get rid of the verse altogether. But this is not what Islam is. As you say, it's not a feel good, new-age religion. We need to understand all the words of the verse first before we even talk about the word adrabahunna. What happened to the word that describes the believing women as qanatat hafezat (obedient, protecting the marriage)? We skip over that and jump to adrabahunna and then we don't understand why a woman must obey her believing husband to begin with...!! That's a problem.
and what the heck is a "progressive muslim" anyway?
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i think you should just drop the who was created before who argument because it really has no bearing on the topic at all. nobody said man's sole purpose in life is to protect women so this is all irrelevent. oh and i'd suggest you ex-nay on the whole prostitute thing. insert foot in mouth.
peace BOOST, I do not know what "ex-nay" means. But I agree with you on the who was created first argument.
it seems to me you keep reading too much into my posts. you need to talk to me and not at me. i'm a very strong young woman by the way. just because i will serve honor and respect my husband like the majority of the world does with the exception of a few lesbian feminists, does not make me this weak pathetic creature like you imagine.[/quote
I do not imagine you as a weak pathetic creature at all. I know I was reading into your posts. And that's why in my second post addressed to you I asked you whether you agreed or not to certain statements so that I know what your statement is.
It's not what you actually believe that matters here (on this thread), but what it sounds like you believe. And believe me that it seems you are implying that women are weak pathetic creatures. I was just making sure that you don't actually think that.
You should honor and respect your husband.
I just want to know WHY you want to honor and obey your husband (beside the fact that the quran says so).marriage is not a friendship. my husband is not my buddy living with me. We each have responsibilities that we must carry out. 434 clearly states that women must be obedient to their husbands. Elhamdulillah i am a Submitter and i will continue to submit to the God and not be so arrogant as to think that I know better than the One who Created little tiny me.
Marriage is very much like friendship. The only exception is that you both are supporting eachother and your children rather than supporting yourselves individually.
But the rest of the rules are pretty much the same. If you want your friend to like you, you "obey" them.i think the major issue here is you go by what YOU think is right. you fit the quran to your liking and whatever doesn't fit you make it fit by choosing something that makes more sense to you. Or you throw it away altogether. but we as submitters can't pick and choose verses my brother. You mentioned before on this thread that you think your logic is infallible. your subjective, faulty logic becomes higher than the God like that. and when i say "you" i mean everybody. Nobody in this world is perfect. you logic is part and parcel of you. as a submitter, you need to mold yourself to fit the quran's standards - even if it doesn't currently make sense to you.
I tend to base what I think is right on what I have observed (empirical evidence). And if the quran doesn't fit that, then it cannot be right.
I cannot ignore what I have observed and try to mold my understanding according to the quran. That is blind faith.
I know I am not perfect, but I cannot assume that the quran is.
And why are we even talking about what I think is right?
The simple fact is that beating another person does not accomplish anything. What the quran is giving us is at best bad advice.Let me give you an example. In the u.s. having your grown kids stay with you till they marry and pay for everything even if they have a job would be considered archaic, bad parenting and completely illogical behavior. In Egypt, having your 18 yr old daughter pay for college or find a job and definitely move out of the family home, would be considered completely irrational pig-headed heartless behavior. See how subjective "logic" is? What is rational to you may be totally irrational to me. That's why we must lean on our Creator to guide us.
OK. But that has nothing to do with what I was trying to get accross. You may think living with your parents is fine, I might not. But one of us has to be right. Or at least there needs to be a right answer. The truth. We need to find that. In this case, I think that both ways work fine. But in some cases both ways don't, or neither does. And we need to find out which way is the right way to do things. And we don't do that by looking it up in a book. We do that by observing what happens when we or someone else makes a choice.
If I have found that beating people is not good, then no amount of verses will change that. What will change that is if someone can show me that beating their women does work.
Our creator is not in a book (and who knows what the heck the books is actually saying). The signs of our creator are in this reality. We need to know what the reality is, and base our choices on that. And if the Quran does not fit the actual reality, the best conclusion is that the Quran is wrong.About the marriage thing, I think we're both saying the same thing two different ways. I may be wrong.
and have a happy new year. -
Peace Boost,
I researched the meanings of "daraba" in Lane Lexicon. Please see the following link under Daad-Ra-Ba
http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm
What I found is that "adraba" OR "adraba 3anha" BOTH can mean "turned away from, avoided, shunned, left it". Thus in 434, "idriboohunna" CAN mean "turn away from them/avoid them/shun them/leave them". These meanings are possible according to LL, even without the "3anhunna". The "from" is part of the meaning of "adraba", thus the word itself can mean "turn away from", but if you dislike the "from" then it can still mean "avoid them/shun them/leave them" without any "from".
Another meaning is "prevent/hinder", so it can also mean "prevent them/hinder them" from the "nushooz" (for example by taking the car keys away to prevent them from visiting their "boyfriend", or not giving them the resources/money). Could that be the meaning in 434 ?
What I saw was that when it means to beat it is invariably followed by where to beat e.g. neck, head etc. or with what to beat e.g. hand, whip etc.
Thus it seems unlikely that "idriboohunna" in 434 can mean to beat as it does not specify where to beat or with what to beat, and it seems more likely for it to mean "turn away from them/avoid them/shun them/leave them" or "prevent them/hinder them", both of which will make sense per the context.
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Peace Boost,
I researched the meanings of "daraba" in Lane Lexicon. Please see the following link under Daad-Ra-Ba
http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm
What I found is that "adraba" OR "adraba 3anha" BOTH can mean "turned away from, avoided, shunned, left it". Thus in 434, "idriboohunna" CAN mean "turn away from them/avoid them/shun them/leave them". These meanings are possible according to LL, even without the "3anhunna". The "from" is part of the meaning of "adraba", thus the word itself can mean "turn away from", but if you dislike the "from" then it can still mean "avoid them/shun them/leave them" without any "from".
Another meaning is "prevent/hinder", so it can also mean "prevent them/hinder them" from the "nushooz" (for example by taking the car keys away to prevent them from visiting their "boyfriend", or not giving them the resources/money). Could that be the meaning in 434 ?
What I saw was that when it means to beat it is invariably followed by where to beat e.g. neck, head etc. or with what to beat e.g. hand, whip etc.
Thus it seems unlikely that "idriboohunna" in 434 can mean to beat as it does not specify where to beat or with what to beat, and it seems more likely for it to mean "turn away from them/avoid them/shun them/leave them" or "prevent them/hinder them", both of which will make sense per the context.
Salam Tanveer
can I ask you mate, what new things did you add exactly?
it is the exact same non sense said by many
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Peace Ahmed,
No worries bro, Boost knows exactly what new things I added
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Peace Bro Tanveer
Uff i'm so lost!! and this is frustrating me now '(
if that's true then i think i'm wrong.... thanks brother for your research...
Bro Ahmed can you please tell me grammatically would edrabuhunna alone ever in any possibility mean to separate from them? If it can grammatically mean that then we're on the wrong side of the fence. If it can't ever mean that phrase then ppl are just coming up with half-baked conclusions.
sheesh one verse and so much confusion! God help me plzzz
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Peace sis Boost,
There is no confusion, insha Allah.
Following is the scan from Lane Lexicon showing that BOTH "idraba" and "idraba 3anha" can mean the same, i.e. turned away from, avoided, shunned, left it
http//i82.photobucket.com/albums/j265/tanveermd/Idraba.jpg
Please see where it says "as also idraba idraba 3anha". This clearly shows that it is POSSIBLE for "idraba" to have the meaning of "turned away from, avoided, shunned, left it".
God tells us in al-qur'aan to follow the best meaning, and it is very easy to see what the best meaning of "idriboohunna" is according to the context of 434 and 4128, out of the various possible meanings.
3918 The ones who listen to what is being said, and then follow the best of it. These are the ones whom God has guided, and these are the ones who possess intelligence.
3955 And follow the best of what has been sent down to you from your Lord, before the retribution comes to you suddenly when you least expect it.
Peace
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Peace Bro Tanveer
Uff i'm so lost!! and this is frustrating me now '(
if that's true then i think i'm wrong.... thanks brother for your research...
Bro Ahmed can you please tell me grammatically would edrabuhunna alone ever in any possibility mean to separate from them? If it can grammatically mean that then we're on the wrong side of the fence. If it can't ever mean that phrase then ppl are just coming up with half-baked conclusions.
sheesh one verse and so much confusion! God help me plzzz
Salam dear siter
Absoluetly Not sister, I never heard of it nor heard any Arab using it as such
You have to also know mate that you are talking with someone who isa married for 15 years and fully aware of 434 and it never happend that I beat her, there was never a case of Nishooz by her for me to even advuce her not to do
My wife also reads my posts, she is a member on my web site and only reads, she was raised up in Australia and purely a western atittude, she even showed sympathy to the tyrant Saddam Hussain which was a big dispute between us, on the other hand she talks arabic Fluently becaause she lived in Egypt between 12 and 17 years of age, and she knows well that Idrabuhuna means to beat them,
to sperate from them akes no sense because sepration was just mentioned before it which is to abandon tgem in bed, that is a separation or what do you think?
please be aware of the feel good religion virus infected by many westerners trying to manipulate the Arabiv words, the Quran talks about them indeed
salam
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Peace sis Boost,
There is no confusion, insha Allah.
Following is the scan from Lane Lexicon showing that BOTH "idraba" and "idraba 3anha" can mean the same, i.e. turned away from, avoided, shunned, left it
http//i82.photobucket.com/albums/j265/tanveermd/Idraba.jpg
Please see where it says "as also idraba idraba 3anha". This clearly shows that it is POSSIBLE for "idraba" to have the meaning of "turned away from, avoided, shunned, left it".
God tells us in al-qur'aan to follow the best meaning, and it is very easy to see what the best meaning of "idriboohunna" is according to the context of 434 and 4128, out of the various possible meanings.
3918 The ones who listen to what is being said, and then follow the best of it. These are the ones whom God has guided, and these are the ones who possess intelligence.
3955 And follow the best of what has been sent down to you from your Lord, before the retribution comes to you suddenly when you least expect it.
Peace
I thank Allah brother Tanveer, you just shot yourself in the foot, this is planned by Allah to help sister Boost not to go astray
See, what you posted from the lex dictionary, clearly exposes your ignorance, sorry to tell you that, now if you are a sincere Muslim looking to learn about your religion, then I expect you to concede after knowing the following
Firstly, the image you posted was saved to my web site as a compelling evidence against you and will be used from now on against those who promote this flaw
Look again Tanveer and you will see that the dictionary NEVER LISTED the word ?IDRABUHUNA? which should look like this in Arabic? ?, that is 2 wordsIdraba & Huna, ? ? & ? ?
On the other hand your dictionary lists something else ?IDRAB ANHUNA?, i.e. in Arabic ? ?, i.e. ?Stay away from them?. see bro that is three words Idraba, An, & Huna, ? ?, ? ? & ? ?
What you totally missed the word An ? ?, and that is needed to make the meaning separate FROM, i.e. An = From, please look in your dictionary again
Please bro I have no time to waste on this subject any more
Game is over
Salam
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Peace Ahmed,
Do you really think everyone here is stupid and cannot read Arabic ? The scan that I posted clearly shows that "idraba" has the same meaning as "idraba 3anha". From this it is crystal clear that "idrabuhunna" would be the same as "idrabu 3anhunna". Everyone can see how you are blatantly lying about what the scan is showing. You have exposed your deceptive tactics yourself.
Sister Boost, this is clear proof that all Ahmed cares is about his ego and not the truth. He would rather tell you lies than the truth, just so he can promote his lengthy "debates", his fallacious interpretations and his own agenda based on his desires and deception.
4523 Have you seen the one who took his ego as his god, and God led him astray, despite his knowledge, and He sealed his hearing and his heart, and He made a veil on his eyes? Who then can guide him after God? Will you not remember?
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Peace Ahmed,
Do you really think everyone here is stupid and cannot read Arabic ?
Leave stupidity away, i didn't say that, it is you who is saying that, on the other hand yes it seems you dont know how to read arabic
The scan that I posted clearly shows that "idraba" has the same meaning as "idraba 3anha".
The scan you posted clearly exposes your ignornace
You need another word in addition to the word Idraba to get the meaning you want, that word is An, and it is separate word, that word is not Huna, look at your scan and you will see it, on the other hand I challenge you to prove me wrong however we need another fluent Arabic speaker to give the final blow to you
it seems you got mixed up between the Damir Huna and the word An, but that is your problem not a language problem
From this it is crystal clear that "idrabuhunna" would be the same as "idrabu 3anhunna".
a clear cut case of ignorance
Idrabahuna is totally different meaning to Idrab Anhuna
Idrabuhuna is two words, Idrab and Huna
Idrab Anhuna is three words, Idrab and An and Huna
your ignorance is beyond belief
just be a good a believer and cocede, this is what your lex dectionary says not me
You need another word "An" to make the word Idrab means to separate from
As I told ya bro, game is over
I challenge the whole world to prove me wrong
Everyone can see how you are blatantly lying about what the scan is showing. You have exposed your deceptive tactics yourself.
dismissed
Sister Boost, this is clear proof that all Ahmed cares is about his ego and not the truth. He would rather tell you lies than the truth, just so he can promote his lengthy "debates", his fallacious interpretations and his own agenda based on his desires and deception.
This is the last time you defame me brother, you are committing a huge sin indeed
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Peace Ahmed,
Don't worry, you have defamed yourself. I will quote your posts here so you cannot edit your posts later and wiggle out of this.
I thank Allah brother Tanveer, you just shot yourself in the foot, this is planned by Allah to help sister Boost not to go astray
See, what you posted from the lex dictionary, clearly exposes your ignorance, sorry to tell you that, now if you are a sincere Muslim looking to learn about your religion, then I expect you to concede after knowing the following
Firstly, the image you posted was saved to my web site as a compelling evidence against you and will be used from now on against those who promote this flaw
Look again Tanveer and you will see that the dictionary NEVER LISTED the word ?IDRABUHUNA? which should look like this in Arabic? ?, that is 2 wordsIdraba & Huna, ? ? & ? ?
On the other hand your dictionary lists something else ?IDRAB ANHUNA?, i.e. in Arabic ? ?, i.e. ?Stay away from them?. see bro that is three words Idraba, An, & Huna, ? ?, ? ? & ? ?
What you totally missed the word An ? ?, and that is needed to make the meaning separate FROM, i.e. An = From, please look in your dictionary again
Please bro I have no time to waste on this subject any more
Game is over
Salam
Leave stupidity away, i didn't say that, it is you who is saying that, on the other hand yes it seems you dont know how to read arabic
The scan you posted clearly exposes your ignornace
You need another word in addition to the word Idraba to get the meaning you want, that word is An, and it is separate word, that word is not Huna, look at your scan and you will see it, on the other hand I challenge you to prove me wrong however we need another fluent Arabic speaker to give the final blow to you
it seems you got mixed up between the Damir Huna and the word An, but that is your problem not a language problem
a clear cut case of ignorance
Idrabahuna is totally different meaning to Idrab Anhuna
Idrabuhuna is two words, Idrab and Huna
Idrab Anhuna is three words, Idrab and An and Huna
your ignorance is beyond belief
just be a good a believer and cocede, this is what your lex dectionary says not me
You need another word "An" to make the word Idrab means to separate from
As I told ya bro, game is over
I challenge the whole world to prove me wrong
dismissed
This is the last time you defame me brother, you are committing a huge sin indeed
and this was my post containing the scan
Peace sis Boost,
There is no confusion, insha Allah.
Following is the scan from Lane Lexicon showing that BOTH "idraba" and "idraba 3anha" can mean the same, i.e. turned away from, avoided, shunned, left it
http//i82.photobucket.com/albums/j265/tanveermd/Idraba.jpg
Please see where it says "as also idraba idraba 3anha". This clearly shows that it is POSSIBLE for "idraba" to have the meaning of "turned away from, avoided, shunned, left it".
God tells us in al-qur'aan to follow the best meaning, and it is very easy to see what the best meaning of "idriboohunna" is according to the context of 434 and 4128, out of the various possible meanings.
3918 The ones who listen to what is being said, and then follow the best of it. These are the ones whom God has guided, and these are the ones who possess intelligence.
3955 And follow the best of what has been sent down to you from your Lord, before the retribution comes to you suddenly when you least expect it.
Peace
Now everyone can see how you defamed yourself !!
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Yeh you right, LOL
I'm putting this on my web site right now so the world see how I defamed myself
this is my last comment to you regarding any subject
Salam
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Peace all,
Everyone can see how Ahmed deceptively did not tell others that the scan clearly shows "as also idraba idraba 3anha" showing that BOTH have the same meaning.