Beating Women
-
i was on a forum in a "beating women" thread. i posted the article from free-minds http//free-minds.org/women/beating.htm and someone disagrees with what the article said...well this is exacly what they said...
"beating = leave ??? what a pathetic and DESPERATE attempt to justify this act, the Arabic word idribohunna Driven from the root word Darab Does not have any other meaning than Beat WHEN it comes to MEAN "Yadreb Ahadan" = Hit someone , Idriboohunna means beat them (for female plural), Adriboo Anhunna IS the one that means abandon or leave them...
it says Idriboohunna , not Adribu Anhunna ....the meaning is totally different... read a book on Arabic grammar,NOT Modern standard arabic but Classical Arabic ie the Language of the Quran.Classical Arabic still has to be translated into todays Arabic."this is mainly to the those who are familiar with classical arabic...can you please get to the bottom of what verse 434 says.
-
Peace
Thanks for bringing this up
I just wanna bump the thread because I'd like this answered as well from our more knowledgable brothers and sisters
-
Peace,
Ask the person who acts knowledgable in the Arabic language why he/she does not apply this meaning of
beatwhen God saysdarab Allah mathala(God beats and example?).The ususal runaround you will get when you confront people with this paradox in the meaning is that they will say
darabmeansbeatwhen applied to humans and means something else when apllied to examples or situations.Once they say that to you, then close the argument by pointing to 1811 which shows another example of
darabbeing applied to humans (the people of the cave) and which under no situation can be made to meanbeat. -
i was on a forum in a "beating women" thread. i posted the article from free-minds http//free-minds.org/women/beating.htm and someone disagrees with what the article said...well this is exacly what they said...
"beating = leave ??? what a pathetic and DESPERATE attempt to justify this act, the Arabic word idribohunna Driven from the root word Darab Does not have any other meaning than Beat WHEN it comes to MEAN "Yadreb Ahadan" = Hit someone , Idriboohunna means beat them (for female plural), Adriboo Anhunna IS the one that means abandon or leave them...
it says Idriboohunna , not Adribu Anhunna ....the meaning is totally different... read a book on Arabic grammar,NOT Modern standard arabic but Classical Arabic ie the Language of the Quran.Classical Arabic still has to be translated into todays Arabic."this is mainly to the those who are familiar with classical arabic...can you please get to the bottom of what verse 434 says.
Salam bro
there is no doubt that the word "Daraba" in 434 means "To beat", however the verses does not apply to any wife, ONLY a wife that is insisting on ill conduct
the word daraba can mean many things if other words used with it
for example
Ahmed Daraba Hesham, means Ahmed beat Hesham
Ahmed Darab FI Al Ard, means Ahmed travelled in the land
Ahmed Daraba Mathal, means Ahmed gave an example
Ahmed Daraba Al Wada, means Ahmed is trying to read the future (sort of)
again there is no question that Daraba in 434 means to beat an ill coduct wife who insists on the wrong doings
Salam
-
PEace All
I need to ask a question that stemmed from this thread and hopefully RiseUp will not get annoyed from my thread-hijack lol
When we look at the quran and say the quran never used this word with this meaning, therefore the meaning here must be the same as the others... how do we come to that conclusion? For example, just because the God used the word DARABA to mean show an example or to leave in some verses why does it exclude another meaning of DARABA in another verse? I always took this concept for granted but i need to verify why people do this now. I understand that you explain the quran using the quran's language but if a word has 4 meanings why are 3 right and one wrong? Couldn't the God have meant to show an example in one aya, to leave in another aya and to hit in a third aya? I don't know if its true or not but hypothetically speaking it is possible. So I was wondering how you decide which is right and which is wrong.
-
Hello Boost
The context and the other words in the sentence is the only way to determine the meanig
for example, Daraba Mathal, can't mean that you beat an example, therefore it has to mean give an example
as well Darab his wife can't mean give his wife, therefore it means beat his wife
as well Daraba fo Alard, can't mean that you beat in the land nor it means you give in the land, therefore it should means travel in the land
Salam
-
Peace Bro AB
So it really does mean to beat your wife? This is serious now for me. What is the hikma found in this verse? I am not questioning God i'm just trying to uderstand the verse.
-
Peace,
You can beat your wife and seperate from your wife. Dharaba also means to move/seperate from a position. It is even used for sex according to Tay-Ul-Roos's dictionary.
The context refers more to leaving your wife, as this is a correct prelude to 435. Also almost all punishments must be given by a court and not by individuals. Beating your wife doesn't solve anything.
-
Peace Bro AB
So it really does mean to beat your wife? This is serious now for me. What is the hikma found in this verse? I am not questioning God i'm just trying to uderstand the verse.
Peace mate
your statement is not entirely accurate, it should be like this
So it really does mean to beat your ill conduct wife after exhuasting the first two options that include no beatinig?
and if you said it that way then yes it is 100% as such
Take care
-
peace AB,
how does beating someone solve anything?
and what kind of crime should men beat their wives for? beating someone's wife would pretty much ruin the relationship. Ask any of the female members here.
And are wives allowed to beat their husbands?
and if the wife gets beaten, wouldn't she just get divorce to get away from you?
I don't get what that would solve.
Seperating from eachother (temporarily or not) makes much more sense. -
peace AB,
Salam Walid
look, I debated this on my web site intensivly and I'm not willing to debate the issue further on FM, i may copy the other debate here so others can benefit from it
now I will try to answer your question briefly with no elaboration at this time, first of all my job is not to preach, i only explain the Arabic words using my expertise with the language, however I also apply the common sense on top that to see if the Arabic meaning as I see it as literal as possible makes sense or not within the context, now I'm in no positi0on to argue the laws of Allah and question it, for me that is what He ordered and that is what should be done, as simple as that, now you are taking the beating alone out of the whole verse context to try and prove its crystal clear meaning wrong because it does not suit your man made feel good religion, I don't do that mate, for me, religion is never feel good unless you obey what Allah says not what my low desires wish, so please get it this time
how does beating someone solve anything?
the verse didn't say to beat SOMEONE nor the verse said to beat any wife, the verse was very specific in beating the ill conduct wife who insisted on doing the wrong after her husband exhausted the first two options to decipline an ill conduct wife
and what kind of crime should men beat their wives for?
well, there are many and if I will lcopy my debate in here then you will read it
beating someone's wife would pretty much ruin the relationship.
well, the relation is ruined anyway before the beating because the ill conduct wife is insisting on doing the wrong after the husband exhausted the olther two options, at least there will be a chance now that this sick and ill conduct wife wake up and fix her flaws that will only result to her doom on the JD
Ask any of the female members here.
you can ask them, I won't, I can only ask my wife that is if she is an ill conduct one (God forbids) and in 15 years marraige I never beaten her because she never conducts things in an ill manner
And are wives allowed to beat their husbands?
well, the Quran didn't prevent it , so I guess it is allowed if there is merit behind it, however the wife will run a major risk in here, see if we reverse the verse to simulate a case where the husband is the ill conduct one and the wife is trying hard to fix his flaws but he insists on doing the wrong then beating an ill conduct husband will put the wife in great danger because the ill conduct husband may hit back and hurt her, the man is not like a woman physically as you know
and if the wife gets beaten, wouldn't she just get divorce to get away from you?
well in that case no, however if the wife is insisting on doing the wrong after the three steps finished then this wife is so ill that only deserve to be in the streets not in my home with my children
I don't get what that would solve.
it is not what i solved
it is what Allah ordered
Seperating from eachother (temporarily or not) makes much more sense.
to your man made feel good religion, yes, but it makes no sense to the true meaning of this crystral clear verse said by Allah
-
PEace All
I'm so lost ... does that mean according to you, bro Arnold, that it is not to beat? How do we know this since everyone else says it means to hit? i know in modern standard arabic it means to hit but this may mean nothing.
Bro AB, what are the punishments? I know you probably don't want to discuss it again but this means alot to me i have to know. if you can even just paste the debate it would be helpful.
i agree with you bro Phoenix that it does not help. i know if i was hit by my husband i would feel very hurt inside... but i need to know what the quran says about this.
Now there are 2 translations and i'd like to feel comfortable in knowing it is bro Arnold's but i don't want to be blind either.
I'm sorry to both of you i know this has probably been debated a million times and seems trivial to you all at this point. but it is really bothering me and my faith is shaken and i don't like that feeling at all. plz help me.
-
Bro AB, what are the punishments? I know you probably don't want to discuss it again but this means alot to me i have to know. if you can even just paste the debate it would be helpful.
Hello
I will inshaallah as I will need to edit the tags due to the difference in platform, it is not plain cut and paste
i agree with you bro Phoenix that it does not help. i know if i was hit by my husband i would feel very hurt inside... but i need to know what the quran says about this.
I'm not really sure what you mean?, do you mean if you were hit by your husband after insisting on the ill conduct?
if you will feel bad by being beaten for your ill conduct, how about your husband feelings who tried to fis you first with a polite advice "Eizohuna" then you insisted, then he abandon you in bed then you insisted
it seems that you won't care about your husband feeling while insisting on ill conduct, the ill conduct wife can avoid the beating by simply seeking divorce while the husband still exriencing the first two options before he start tpo beat her
salam
-
Peace Bro AB
what is the ill conduct?
This means a world of difference to me because if it is just anything he doesn't like, then maybe i'm not bad and he is violent. what is the criteria? maybe this will make it easier for me to get to understand.. i don't know
i'll wait for the work you have to do to post it here. Thank you
-
Peace Boost,
I think that first the husband should be an upright example of adhering to quranic principle. I do not think many men really take up the responsibilities they are expected to keep to. I do not think it is an easy thing myself, but I'm not all that good myself. Like Dante I'm seeking purification/zakat, and sometimes I find myself in a dark wood. The straight path is not so easy to step back on for the lion, the she-wolf, and the leopard are terrible foes to all.
Joe
-
Peace Bro AB
what is the ill conduct?
This means a world of difference to me because if it is just anything he doesn't like, then maybe i'm not bad and he is violent. what is the criteria? maybe this will make it easier for me to get to understand.. i don't know
i'll wait for the work you have to do to post it here. Thank you
Hello mate
it is going to be a lot of work to copy and paste it in here, especially a few were involved, therefore I have no other option but to post you a url and you can take it from there
Debate 1
Debate 2
-
PEace
Brother Ahmed you made me a better wife before i even get married handshake
I've always taken the free-minds article just blindly to be true without much research simply because i didn't understand how the God can command a man to hit a woman. i think it would please western ears to hear there is no physical force on a woman, but the way you explained it shows there is hikma in it. this is a woman who is doing drugs or stealing or abusing her children. this is a woman who does not want to change regardless of what you say or do. i will never be that kind of person God-Willing... so i guess i have nothing to worry about. i will be honest. i still have some residual heartburn from this whole idea but i'm working to understand it...
You made a really good point in one of the debates. The reality is that men do hit women and very very violently. At least if there will be any hitting, i'd want to know that there are some rules that govern my muslim husband. he can't just hit me for nothing. or hit me without even talking to me about what i'm doing wrong. and like Bro Nabi pointed out too, the man has to be following the quran all the way through and not just one verse. This would make him a wise man as you repeated to those people.
Anyway, i feel so much better now that i'm beginning to understand and submit to the God's Will in that verse.
God Bless you really
-
Boost, you are a guy, aren't you?
If a woman is sooo out of wack, what would beating her accomplish? nothing. I'd rather get rid of her or turn her in. I'm not a big fan of physical force, against children or wives.
Maybe there wouldn't be anything wrong with beating a woman who has no sense of morality whatsoever, but it isn't the best way to deal with the situation, IMHO. -
Peace Bro PHoenix
Boost, you are a guy, aren't you?
umm.. -\
If a woman is sooo out of wack, what would beating her accomplish? nothing. I'd rather get rid of her or turn her in. I'm not a big fan of physical force, against children or wives.
Maybe there wouldn't be anything wrong with beating a woman who has no sense of morality whatsoever, but it isn't the best way to deal with the situation, IMHO.there is nothing in the verse that says you MUST beat her. Divorce is always an option if you just don't wanna even bother. but there are other people who really can't let go of a messed up child-abusing woman, let's say, but can't accept that behavior either. So that's just a last chance. Perhaps it would be the drastic event that would shock her into changing. Perhaps not but the option is there for those who still want to be together for the children or other reasons.
