Beating Women

aqua

I have not studied this aspect, so do not know. All I know is no marital example supports your position.

Let's take the two previous steps mentioned in verse 434, 'advise/speak to them', and 'avoid/leave them in bed'. Can you provide any 'marital example' in the Qur'an for each of these steps? If not, then why expect there to be one for the third step?

That does not answer my point. The point I am making is you have no example from Quran of DRB usage in the form you claim for 434 meaning what you say it means. This is fact.

Verse 435 is an example of Da-Ra-Ba being used with the same meaning. The difference is that one is an imperative / command form and the other isn't, which is necessary because the verses intend these different meanings. Both Form 1 and Form 4 of the word can be used for that meaning.

Exactly. It was recited to him in a specific recitation BUT recorded as a non-specific recitation i.e. Arabic text written down with no diacritics. In such a case, with regard to 434 are you of the view that a believer can interpret Quran in a way that is theoretically possible (e.g. your view or my view) and either is fine, or there is only one correct view (i.e. only one correct recitation)?

I think each verse has an originally intended meaning, but this should not be dictated through the use of diacritics or a fixed recitation, but instead sought through careful study of the Qur'an and use of logic, intelligence and relevant/reliable sources of information. Some verses may have intentionally been left open in order to allow adaptation to the constantly changing societies, modern technology and different groups of people.

Man_of_Faith

Peace,

I take the instructions in 434 to be a kind of psychological "weapon" against the wife if she is not treating you well. First explicitly tell her that whatever the problem is that it is not okay and then if she is still a pain then sleep on the couch or something and if that does not help rent a hotel room or sleep at a friend's place. This is usually what most men do anyway when the relationship is going south. Perhaps it is a way to protect both parts so that it does not derail into domestic violence which may occur if the situation worsens into fights.

And if the situation becomes better then do not seek continuous revenge in the future. And if it cannot be solved then they should seek help from other helpers, Quran gives one from each family as an example.

God bless you

Wakas

Let's take the two previous steps mentioned in verse 434, 'advise/speak to them', and 'avoid/leave them in bed'. Can you provide any 'marital example' in the Qur'an for each of these steps? If not, then why expect there to be one for the third step?

There are examples of discussions between husband and wife, and potential marriage partners, and bed separation. You even cited some in your article, e.g. 4128-129. But for more, see
http//www.quran434.com/wife-beating-islam.html#part3

Verse 435 is an example of Da-Ra-Ba being used with the same meaning. The difference is that one is an imperative / command form and the other isn't, which is necessary because the verses intend these different meanings. Both Form 1 and Form 4 of the word can be used for that meaning.

For sake of argument, let's accept what you said is true. My point is 435 is not the same DRB form as you are claiming for DRB in 434. Thus, quite simply, you have no example in Quran of the DRB form you are claiming for 434 meaning what you think it means - FACT

Also, no example from Classical Arabic Dictionaries.

I think each verse has an originally intended meaning, but this should not be dictated through the use of diacritics or a fixed recitation, but instead sought through careful study of the Qur'an and use of logic, intelligence and relevant/reliable sources of information. Some verses may have intentionally been left open in order to allow adaptation to the constantly changing societies, modern technology and different groups of people.

Thanks for clarifying. My point, which you accept, is that there was likely a specific rendition of 434. You do not mention this in your article when making a detailed case for the non-tashkeel recording of Quran. Some readers might like to be aware of that.

aqua

There are examples of discussions between husband and wife, and potential marriage partners, and bed separation. You even cited some in your article, e.g. 4128-129. But for more, see
http//www.quran434.com/wife-beating-islam.html#part3

Those verses hardly provide any marital example of a situation of personal dispute between a husband and wife. If you can use verse 4128 as a marital example because of its reference to reconciliation, then I can use it as a 'marital example' to support my view. Verse 2228 is about those who make an oath against their wives and then God prescribes four months as a waiting period for breaking free from this oath.

For sake of argument, let's accept what you said is true. My point is 435 is not the same DRB form as you are claiming for DRB in 434. Thus, quite simply, you have no example in Quran of the DRB form you are claiming for 434 meaning what you think it means - FACT

Also, no example from Classical Arabic Dictionaries.

You are exaggerating the importance / relevance of specific forms of a word much more than they actually have in Arabic grammar. I tried to explain this by referring to the excerpt below from an Arabic grammar book, yet you seem to think you have a strong argument when you don't

http//www.quranverse434.com/media/marked-arabic_grammar-a_first_workbook-by_g_m_wickens-_p64.png

Thanks for clarifying. My point, which you accept, is that there was likely a specific rendition of 434. You do not mention this in your article when making a detailed case for the non-tashkeel recording of Quran. Some readers might like to be aware of that.

When the diacritics were being introduced into the Qur'an, Ibn Mujahid first authorised at least seven readings of the Qur'an. Eventually the addition of more diacritics led to a single specific reading of the Qur'an. I cover this point in the following part of the article

It was only in the beginning of the tenth century (CE) that specific readings of the Qur'an were enforced by the Abbasid authority, mainly by Ibn Mujahid who died in 936 CE. Those who refused to recite according to Ibn Mujahid's view of the Qur'an were brought to trial and punished by flogging. It was the first time after Prophet Muhammad's death that the Qur'anic text was beginning to be used more than simply an aid for recital, rather it was being used more as an official score for specific ways of reciting the Qur'an. Taken from 'The Cambridge Companion to the Qur'an' by Jane Dammen McAuliffe21)

http//www.quranverse434.com/media/marked-the_cambridge_companion_to_the_qur_an-edited_by_jane_dammen_mcauliffe-_p149.png

After Ibn Mujahid's intervention, copies of the Qur'an were increasingly produced according to one of his accepted readings. More and more signs were added culminating toward a fixed single version of vocalised text. Taken from 'The Cambridge Companion to the Qur'an' by Jane Dammen McAuliffe22)

http//www.quranverse434.com/media/marked-the_cambridge_companion_to_the_qur_an-edited_by_jane_dammen_mcauliffe-_p150.png

unknownuser

Peace,

I take the instructions in 434 to be a kind of psychological "weapon" against the wife if she is not treating you well...

rotfl

Jeesh, what are you, like 10 years old??

FreedomStands

Peace,

Ask the person who acts knowledgable in the Arabic language why he/she does not apply this meaning of beat when God says darab Allah mathala (God beats and example?).

The ususal runaround you will get when you confront people with this paradox in the meaning is that they will say darab means beat when applied to humans and means something else when apllied to examples or situations.

Once they say that to you, then close the argument by pointing to 1811 which shows another example of darab being applied to humans (the people of the cave) and which under no situation can be made to mean beat.

Very strategic, I like it.

huruf

reading d-r-b as beat is paart of the whole distortion of aya 4.34. It has been purposefully and unwarrantedly made to appear as speaking about husbands and wives, whereas it is very plain, undisguised and clear that it speaks about males and females, in the third person plural both of them.
It is also very clear that the addressee is the community of believers, "Ya ayyuha alathina amanwu". No husband is addressed but the whole community.

The word nushuz is whimsically interpreted to mean something when the doer are women and to mean something else when the doer is a husband. How come?

We are being taken for a ride for many cneturies and still keep liking it?

Ya salaam!!!! or My God!!!!

Salaam

Man_of_Faith

I am a bit embarrassed about my reply over a year ago, but at least I am happy my understanding has improved.

My reply was the best of understanding using the traditional interpretation.

Be well

Man_of_Faith

dh-ra-ba means to "put forth" something like a presentation.

Be well

FreedomStands

Any women or men here who want me to beat them up? Just don't hit back!