REF: virgin birth, what about Cloning ?

unknownuser

Peace Someone,

The problem I have with virgin birth is "the source" of the chromosone Y for Issa, where did it come from?

This shows ignorance about the existence of human XY females. XY human females exist in real life; some variations are testicular feminization syndrome or androgen insensitivity syndrome, Swyer Syndrome or pure XY gonadal dysgenesis, and XO/XY mosaicism. In these conditions a fetus with XY chromosomes develops into a female. An XY male can possibly arise from such an XY female without intervention of a sperm through parthenogenesis or cloning. This proves the possibility of the virgin birth of an XY male from an XY female. Maybe Mary was such an XY female.

Another example is honey bees. Normally, fertilized eggs laid by the queen bee develop into female worker bees. Unfertilized eggs laid by the queen bee, however, develop into MALE drones by Parthenogenesis. Thus there is precedence in nature of producing a male from a female without fertilization by a sperm without changing the "natural" laws.

Peace

arnoldyasin

Peace,

The funny thing is, even if Mary turned out to be a XY-female, then the whole story is no miracle story anymore, but just a story on a rare natural phenomena. So whatever you interpretate into the Mary story, they both prove that Allah doesn't break His laws...........case closed

unknownuser

Peace Phoenix, all,

the thing is that cloning (and perhaps even parthenogenesis) is not natural. So unless the scientific technology to change reproduction in humans was available in the 1st century, jesus had to have a father. And according to nature, every person must have a father.

Come again ....... Parthenogenesis is not natural ??? o Come on Phoenix, I didnt expect that from you !!!!!!

When parthenogenesis is possible in lower animals, why can't it be possible in humans with divine intervention by the command "be" and without changing any natural laws ? After all EVERY natural birth and development into fully grown human is possible ONLY through divine intervention, otherwise how do you explain the presence of soul in the developing fetus ???

The problem with us is that we are so used to the miracle of natural birth that we dont consider it a miracle any more ! The natural birth is more miraculous or as miraculous as any other known so called ancient "miracle" ! For a miracle to occur, the natural laws dont have to change. It just seems like a miracle because we are not used to seeing it more often, not because natural laws were changed. The current technologies like electricity, computers, airplanes, remote controls, automobiles, nuclear bombs, rockets etc. would appear like miracles to someone 500 years ago even though all of them are subject to and possible under natural laws, without changing any laws. All so called ancient miracles performed by the Prophets through God's permission appear supernatural to us because we don't understand the technology behind them, not because natural laws were changed. Maybe one day in 500 more years we will have the technology to perform similar feats and then those supernatural things will not be supernatural miracles any more but will appear perfectly natural.

Even according to natural laws, half of the water in a glass can suddenly separate and move up in the air. All water molecules have kinetic energy and are moving at all times in random directions. Theoretically it is possible that half of the molecules of water suddenly move in the same direction causing the water to split !! It is possible even though it is highly improbable and under the command "be" from God it can happen, without violating any natural laws. Parting of the sea can be explained in a similar way, occuring under the command "be" of God, without violating any natural laws !

When a scientist does something like cloning it is not considered a miracle, even though it is natural in the sense that it is subject to natural laws, but when God does something by the command "be" it is called a miracle, even though no natural laws were changed.

The scientists have recently developed cloaking technology in which a solid object can be made to disappear from vision by a technology which bends the light rays around the object and then converge again, instead of reflecting from it, making it look like the solid object doesn't exist. See the following link

http//www.guardian.co.uk/science/story/0,,1926997,00.html

This causes an illusion of an object vanishing from sight. Perhaps by altering the characteristics of the reflected light an illusion can be created in which an object could be made to look like another object which would explain a rod turning into a snake. In the famous Philadelphia Experiment conducted under the supervision of Einstein in the 1940's, an entire ship was made to vanish by creating an enormous magnetic field.

Just because we cannot explain a so called "miracle" in light of our current scientific knowledge doesn't mean that it cannot happen without changing natural laws. Once we will discover the technology to perform feats similar to those "miracles" then they wouldn't appear supernatural any more !

Peace

unknownuser

Peace Arnold, all,

The funny thing is, even if Mary turned out to be a XY-female, then the whole story is no miracle story anymore, but just a story on a rare natural phenomena. So whatever you interpretate into the Mary story, they both prove that Allah doesn't break His laws...........case closed

Yes, case closed indeed, as parthenogenesis has demolished the theory of impossibility of an organism to be born without a father, and has made the virgin birth of Jesus possible. But it still doesn't prove that Allah does not break His laws. He just never breaks the law of giving evil some respite and then destroying it.

unknownuser

Peace Tay,

Is one born without a father, as far as we know, for the only time in history, equal to every other person who was born with a father?

It would depend on the righteousness of that individual, otherwise, yes, they are equal. Parthenogenesis is as natural as sexual reproduction and does not make one organism superior to the other in the same species. Otherwise, do you think that the male drones are inferior to the female worker bees ?

So, it is coincidence, then, that what you subscribe to was also created by polytheists/pagans long before Isa's time? Is this your position?

As I said before, legends are irrelevant to seeking the truth and I don't realy care about them.

Cosmic scale is irrelevant. We're discussing humanity's scale and God's interaction or lack thereof within this scale. So, 2 thousand years is a big chunk of that time.

According to your humanity scale, then, every human should have full recompense of their suffering within their lifetime. Even ONE human that is not thus recompensed would therefore show an unmerciful God according to your hypothesis. It is a fact that some individuals enjoy all their life even though they commit evil acts and others suffer greatly even though they are righteous, without any recompense in this life. Does it make God unmerciful then ? I say no, because we have to look at the entire continuum including the afterlife to see whether God is merciful or unmerciful, and not just look at a tiny window of this life.

It's not my hypothesis. I'm working with YOUR belief in supernatural occurrences. I do not believe God has ever intervened, because, as you stated, if he intervenes at one time and not another, that makes God less than perfect in His dispersement of Mercy and Justice. This is not my opinion, but a definable understanding of the very terms we're using.

First of all, I dont believe in "supernatural" occurrences. Please see my above post for an explanation. You are trying to determine God's mercy just by looking at this life alone. The sufferings in this lifetime are a test or a consequence of our own choices made by our own free will, and eventually all sufferings will be recompensed in the afterlife which is the real life. This life and the afterlife are a continuum, just like waking up from sleep. So to determine the real mercy of God we have to look at the entire continuum and not just this life.

God has His reasons for apparently alleviating some persons sufferings in this life and making others wait until the after life. Maybe that depends on the respective persons own choices made by their own free will or for the purpose of a test, so it is not God's fault. Nevertheless, as long as EVENTUALLY all sufferings are recompensed (in the afterlife), it does show a merciful God.

Peace

unknownuser

Peace Phoenix, all,

your whole argument assumes that the virgin birth is what the quran is implying, and you have yet to prove that conclusively, in fact Arnold and Tay have presented much stronger arguments than you and fahad have.

Your argument with Tay about God's laws changing is desperate at best. If I say that my laws do not change. Then some other time I say that my law is to wash my hands before eating, does that mean that law of mine will change? no. What you are saying is not only illogical, but also an insult to everyone's (including yours) intelligence.

It has been proven conclusively that virgin birth is what al-qur'aan is mentioning, in multiple debates on this forum in the past. Instead of rehashing the same proofs, I would urge you to search the forum and study those debates. Some relevant links are as follows

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=8408.0

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=8409.0

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=8422.0

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=8426.0

How can you say that Arnold and Tay have presented stronger arguments when they are presenting some things as "facts" when in fact they are completely unsupported by al-qur'aan, thus being complete conjectures, and they are basing their arguments on conjectures rather than facts. For example

That ALL organisms are created from a male seed. Al-qur'aan never uses the word ALL in 4913 or 5345-46. It is a conjectural interpretation of Arnold and not supported by the actual Arabic. I challenge you to show me where it says "kullu"/all/every in 4913 or 5345-46. These verses are GENERAL verses showing that exceptions are possible such as parthenogenesis. Where there are NO exceptions, God uses the word "kullu"/all/every, for example 3185. God uses very precise language and does not run out of words or forget words.
That in 5346, the seed can only mean a sperm because Arnold interprets "tumna" as "ejaculated" and then conjectures that the seed can only mean a sperm as only a sperm is ejaculated. "Tumna" means something that is put forth which can be both an egg or a sperm. Arnold forgets or conveniently ignores that the female seed/egg is also put forth/ejaculated by some species such as the sea horse for example. The female sea horse "ejaculates" or "puts forth" the EGGS into the males pouch and impregnates the male !! Also the honey bee lays or puts forth the eggs which can result into a male drone by parthenogenesis without fertilization by a sperm.
That ALL natural laws can never change. That is completely unsupported by the actual Arabic of the relevant verses where Allah mentions His sunnat or way. According to al-qur'aan, Allah's sunnah is ONLY respite of evil for some time then its utter annihilation, and this sunnah never changes. Saying that Allah's sunnat also includes ALL natural/cosmic laws is a total conjecture, completely unsupported by al-qur'aan.

I'm sure that parthenogenesis is something that Arnold would use if it supported his position, but I have to say that even though something like this is possible in humans, it's not likely, and since it's not, God would not use it as an example.

I have already shown that parthenogenesis is natural and occurs in some species routinely and is naturally possible. So why can't it be possible without violating or changing any natural laws by the command "be" from God ? All DNA of all organisms is similar, contrary to what Arnold believes, and if DNA in a certain species can be modified or replicated by parthenogenesis, why can't the same happen to the DNA of a human under the command "be" of God, without violating any natural laws ? The scientists have the technology of cloning a human too. Arnold's claim that a human DNA cannot undergo parthenogenesis is completely ludicrous and shows his ignorance about genetics and DNA biochemistry and composition. When a scientist performs cloning in his lab by the command of his technology it is not supernatural or miracle and is accepted as possible, but when God performs parthenogenesis of a human male from a female by His command "be" then it is not accepted and is considered supernatural ?

We don't know ALL of God's laws so how can one say He is breaking them. We might discover some laws in the future which we never knew, which might explain all the so called "miracles" of the past, just like we discovered the existence of "strings" recently that explain a lot of things that we were unable to explain before. We don't know ALL of God's laws thus what may be an impossibility to us today, might be explained tomorrow and what may be an impossibility means that we just don't have all the information yet, so instead of being arrogant and claiming we know ALL which only God does, we should be patient and keep verifying and believing.

Peace

unknownuser

Peace Magi,

Kindly do your research before making unsound/incorrect/false statements. Parthenogenesis is a "natural" form of birth by development of an egg without fertilization by sperm which is similar to cloning. Parthenogenesis occurs naturally in some species, including lower plants, invertebrates (e.g. water fleas, aphids, some bees and parasitic wasps), and vertebrates (e.g. some reptiles, fish, and, very rarely, birds). The basic premise is to prove the possibility of growth and development of an organism from a single seed/egg without fertilization from a sperm, and both cloning and parthenogenesis are examples/proofs, be it "natural" or otherwise. Artificial cloning is also "natural" in the sense that it is still subject to "natural" laws.

Please allow me to revise my earlier statement. Parthenogenesis AND cloning, both annihilate/destroy/demolish Arnold's theory !

Peace

Peace, so im to belive that Jesus was a frog, or an egg plant?

edit

The basic premise is to prove the possibility of growth and development of an organism from a single seed/egg without fertilization from a sperm, and both cloning and parthenogenesis are examples/proofs, be it "natural" or otherwise. Artificial cloning is also "natural" in the sense that it is still subject to "natural" laws.

no, the basic premise is to prove that it happen in the HUMAN species, as this is the species i belive that Jesus was part of. I could be wrong, David icke seems to think, like your are indirectly suggesting, that he was a reptile. And if thats the case. I bow to what you say. If he however IS human, im not buying into it for one minute.

thegod

tay wrote
I'd say that if we assume God intervenes in such a way,

2341 So the punishment overtook them in justice, and We made them as rubbish; so away with the unjust people.

the quran seems to suggest retribution! -)

then we must also assume that there was a period of Godly "inactivity" until the suffering-threshold was reached. I guess humanity has not reached that same threshold in the past 2000 years??

i havent as of yet found a verse which suggests v assume that there is a "threshold of suffering"...what v do have is that there is a term appointed

23 44 None from a nation precedes its term/time and they do not delay/lag behind.

seems they dont understand (that) the "inactivity" is respite for an appointed term...not an omen that there won't ever be a retribution! -)

Actually, that was a joke...

oh ok..nice that u can see the funny side when somebody says something! -)

my apologies.

never mind bro...chill! -)

But prophecies are something I do not rule out, nor fully endorse.

cool! -)

peace tay! peace! -)

thegod

seems they dont understand (that) the "inactivity" is respite for an appointed term...not an omen that there won't ever be a retribution! -)

should read "seems they dont understand (that) the "inactivity" is respite for an appointed term...not an omen that there won't ever be a retribution, or that never was a retribution! -)"

Tay

Peace Tanveer,

It would depend on the righteousness of that individual, otherwise, yes, they are equal. Parthenogenesis is as natural as sexual reproduction and does not make one organism superior to the other in the same species. Otherwise, do you think that the male drones are inferior to the female worker bees ?

Drones? Let's be fair in our analogies, eh? You've boiled it down to science but forgot to include that Marium was supposedly foretold of her virgin pregnancy. Thus we're not comparing 2 natural phenomena but one which was the result of divine intervention - for the only time in history. I suppose you have a right to believe he's nothing special.

As I said before, legends are irrelevant to seeking the truth and I don't realy care about them.

Fair enough. I presume then that it is a coincidence.

According to your humanity scale, then, every human should have full recompense of their suffering within their lifetime. Even ONE human that is not thus recompensed would therefore show an unmerciful God according to your hypothesis. It is a fact that some individuals enjoy all their life even though they commit evil acts and others suffer greatly even though they are righteous, without any recompense in this life. Does it make God unmerciful then ? I say no, because we have to look at the entire continuum including the afterlife to see whether God is merciful or unmerciful, and not just look at a tiny window of this life.

In theory, this makes sense. However, we don't have the afterlife to look at to form our opinions. We only have this life. When the afterlife comes, the answers will follow. So, yes, in this life, if God intervenes for some and not for others, then God is not just. To say that God has His own reasons or the oppressors will be recompensed in the afterlife is filling in the blanks to complete the preconception, imo.

First of all, I dont believe in "supernatural" occurrences.

Jibreel telling Marium that she'll be pregnant because God said so is not supernatural?

Please see my above post for an explanation.

Yes, you've explained it scientifically, but not in the context of the qur'an. The way you have it structured now, either God manipulated Marium in His skylab, or this decision was made at the beginning of time and thus the entire dialogue as described in the qur'an is metaphorical. I haven't seen you put all the pieces together.

You are trying to determine God's mercy just by looking at this life alone.

What else is there to look at?

The sufferings in this lifetime are a test or a consequence of our own choices made by our own free will, and eventually all sufferings will be recompensed in the afterlife which is the real life.

In this context, kindly explain the "test" for children born starving, or addicted to crack, or maimed from explosions.

I agree that this life is but a speck of dust in an infinite universe. However, this is a feeling, a belief, an understanding. I also agree in the belief that all will be paid what they deserve in the end. However, that's really not the issue because this only remains possible/plausible if the playing field is equal for all. Divine intervention in this life breaks that equality. There's no 2 ways about it. We can only explain around it, but we can't include the meddling of God's hand if we want to hold on to a just Creator.

God has His reasons for apparently alleviating some persons sufferings in this life and making others wait until the after life. Maybe that depends on the respective persons own choices made by their own free will or for the purpose of a test, so it is not God's fault. Nevertheless, as long as EVENTUALLY all sufferings are recompensed (in the afterlife), it does show a merciful God.

Perhaps you're right, and in the end, we will know for sure. Unfortunately, God did not give me the ability to see the future. Thus, I can only do what He asks, and that is, take a good look around me. And what I see is humanity running wild and free on this planet within the laws of God's system. I don't see intervention, I don't see laws being broken. People don't suddenly disappear or fly off into space. When I put the pedal to the medal, my car does not time travel. There is a structure to this life and all things remain bound to it. That's what I see with the eyes and mind that God gave me.

Peace,
Tay

unknownuser

Secondly, the understanding of virgin birth from the Quran is only taken from one verse, the denial of Mary that she was touched by males when the Malikah told her about an upcoming child. This denial of hers has a wide interpretation range, and allows thus many views.

So you cannot say my theory is demolished, not at all. You can only say that YOUR interpretation of the story is different then mine.

Also see...

4156
And for their rejection and them saying about Mary a great falsehood.

1927
Then she came to her people carrying him. They said "O Mary, you have come with something totally unexpected!"

1928
"O sister of Aaron, your father was not a bad man, and your mother was never unchaste!"

Throughout the Quran, Allah points out to the fixed laws of the Universe. Of course He can deviate from them as He made them. But does Allah need to show His power through deviating from His fixed laws?

Yes according to Quran?

349
And as a messenger to the Children of Israel "I have come to you with a sign from your Lord; that I create for you from clay the form of a bird, then I blow into it and it becomes a bird by God's leave, and I heal the blind and the leapers, and give life to the dead by God's leave, and I prophesize for you what you shall eat and what to store in your homes. In that is a sign for you if you are believers."

5110
God said "O Jesus son of Mary, recall My blessings upon you and your mother that I supported you with the Holy Spirit; you spoke to the people in the cradle and in old age; and I taught you the Scripture and the wisdom, and the Torah, and the Injeel; and you would create from clay the shape of a bird, then blow into it and it becomes a bird by My leave; and you heal the blind and the leaper by My leave; and you brought out the dead by My leave. And I have restrained the Children of Israel from you, that you came to them with proofs; but those who rejected amongst them said "This is clearly magic!""

phoenix1

peace Tanveer

Come again ....... Parthenogenesis is not natural Huh? Shocked Come on Phoenix, I didnt expect that from you !!!!!!

When parthenogenesis is possible in lower animals, why can't it be possible in humans with divine intervention by the command "be" and without changing any natural laws ? After all EVERY natural birth and development into fully grown human is possible ONLY through divine intervention, otherwise how do you explain the presence of soul in the developing fetus

Sorry to disappoint you, bro, but I have to say it's not natural in human beings because we have never seen such a case. It may be part of asexually reproducing organisms, but for humans, I doubt it. Unless of course you can bring me some good evidence!
But what exactly does "divine intervention" mean? "intervention" suggests that God is interfering with it's laws (which don't change, so god can't do that). Soul is not a supernatural thing. It's part of God's laws. Everything that exists, whether we can explain it or not, is part of the laws. Nothing is outside it.
And if you believe that natural parthenogenesis is possible in humans, then it opens up that contradiction, again.

Even according to natural laws, half of the water in a glass can suddenly separate and move up in the air. All water molecules have kinetic energy and are moving at all times in random directions. Theoretically it is possible that half of the molecules of water suddenly move in the same direction causing the water to split !! It is possible even though it is highly improbable and under the command "be" from God it can happen, without violating any natural laws. Parting of the sea can be explained in a similar way, occuring under the command "be" of God, without violating any natural laws !

The creation and laws are part of the "be" command. God has already done the work. Or maybe that "work" is God. But either way, your example doesn't work. Because it is impossible that the water in my glass would split just when I demand that it split. Water molecules don't move according to my will. But you are saying it can happen if God intervenes. Well, why would a fair God intervene at all? why does Moses get saved and billions of others who die in accidents don't? Why doesn't God save all those people in car accidents when God can very easily can?
How is that fair?
If God works the way you are saying (and god is fair), then no one would get injured, or sick, or die.

That ALL organisms are created from a male seed. Al-qur'aan never uses the word ALL in 4913 or 5345-46. It is a conjectural interpretation of Arnold and not supported by the actual Arabic. I challenge you to show me where it says "kullu"/all/every in 4913 or 5345-46. These verses are GENERAL verses showing that exceptions are possible such as parthenogenesis. Where there are NO exceptions, God uses the word "kullu"/all/every, for example 3185. God uses very precise language and does not run out of words or forget words.

Not all organisms, all MEN. At least that's what 4913 says. But yes, you are right that the word "kullu" is not used.
If God uses very precise language, God would have made it clear that there are exceptions, especially to clear up the Jesus mess. Not a good argument, this one.

That in 5346, the seed can only mean a sperm because Arnold interprets "tumna" as "ejaculated" and then conjectures that the seed can only mean a sperm as only a sperm is ejaculated. "Tumna" means something that is put forth which can be both an egg or a sperm. Arnold forgets or conveniently ignores that the female seed/egg is also put forth/ejaculated by some species such as the sea horse for example. The female sea horse "ejaculates" or "puts forth" the EGGS into the males pouch and impregnates the male !! Also the honey bee lays or puts forth the eggs which can result into a male drone by parthenogenesis without fertilization by a sperm.

But WE are not sea horses or honey bees! we are humans. I have NEVER in my life seen (or seen evidence of) a person born without a father. I cannot believe something just because I want to. It must be supported by evidence. Although I'd love to believe in cool stuff like virgin births, I can't.

That ALL natural laws can never change. That is completely unsupported by the actual Arabic of the relevant verses where Allah mentions His sunnat or way. According to al-qur'aan, Allah's sunnah is ONLY respite of evil for some time then its utter annihilation, and this sunnah never changes. Saying that Allah's sunnat also includes ALL natural/cosmic laws is a total conjecture, completely unsupported by al-qur'aan.

Well, I don't care what is quranic or un-quranic. I care about what makes sense. And to me, randomly changing laws do not exist in this universe. Every law is constant, and has stayed constant, except in mythological stories. Everything is only possible because the ALL natural laws are constant. that is a fact and it remains a fact whether the quran agrees with it or not.
But, does the arabic of the verse say "this sunna" or just "sunna?"

We don't know ALL of God's laws so how can one say He is breaking them. We might discover some laws in the future which we never knew, which might explain all the so called "miracles" of the past, just like we discovered the existence of "strings" recently that explain a lot of things that we were unable to explain before. We don't know ALL of God's laws thus what may be an impossibility to us today, might be explained tomorrow and what may be an impossibility means that we just don't have all the information yet, so instead of being arrogant and claiming we know ALL which only God does, we should be patient and keep verifying and believing.

This is a point I raised in the rest of my post. If I cannot understand the quran, then the quran is a useless piece of horse manure. Why would God give us a book which we can't understand? that's just stupid.
In fact, people 1400 years ago must've been truly lost because they understood even less of it than we do!
I am alive right NOW. I live in the PRESENT. I need guidance NOW. I am not going to wait hoping that some day I'll find out that virgin birth is actually possible.
This is a good debate. Let's keep our minds open.
peace

(just my thoughts
What I am still open to is that "virgin birth" is what the quran is saying, but Jesus is not a person. Just a symbol. I would say that that is the most logical approach. The reason I am not too sure about that is that Jesus and Adam are compared. Why is jesus being compared to man if he isn't one? or maybe Jesus is similar to man but not actually man. I know that this is not just a historical account (if it is one), it is an allegory. That is a fact. It must have some moral lesson. The question is whether it is a historical account or a parable (fictional story). I would think it is the latter. Especially considering the fact that Jesus in Bible=Horus in egyptian mythology.

unknownuser

Peace Tay,

Perhaps you're right, and in the end, we will know for sure. Unfortunately, God did not give me the ability to see the future. Thus, I can only do what He asks, and that is, take a good look around me. And what I see is humanity running wild and free on this planet within the laws of God's system. I don't see intervention, I don't see laws being broken.

God intervenes all the time. Remember in quantum physics, for a potentiality to become real, it needs an observer/interactor. Everything in the universe is occurring the way it is occuring because of God's observation/interaction, which in itself is God's intervention, and all potentialities will cease to become real and we might stop existing if God stops observing us.

Laws don't have to be broken for God to intervene, just the command "be", without necessarily changing any laws. We should be patient and remember that Allah's sunnah of evil being eventually destroyed never changes, although it may take some time and may not happen in an individual's lifetime, but then that individual will be given full recompense in the afterlife. We do have to believe in some things such as existence of God and the afterlife without witnessing it.

7128 Moses said to his people "Seek help with God, and be patient; for the land is God's, He will inherit it to whom He pleases of His servants; and the end will be to the righteous."

So be patient and the end definitely will be to the righteous. The next global catastrophe could be around the corner !

First God sends a prophet to warn the people, then he afflicts them with hardship and adversity, then he replaces the bad with good

794 And We do not send a prophet to any town, except afterwards We would afflict its people with hardship and adversity that they may implore.
795 Then We replace the bad with good, until they have plenty, then they Say "Our fathers were the ones afflicted by hardship, and adversity." We then take them suddenly, while they are unaware.

The punisment might come when people are sleeping or busy playing

797 Are the people of the towns sure that Our punishment will not come to them at night while they are sleeping?
798 Or are the people of the towns sure that Our punishment will not come to them during the late morning while they are playing?
799 Have they become sure about God's scheming? None are sure about God's scheming except the people who are losers.

If God wishes He can punish people immediately for their sins, but in His grand scheme, he gives them respite for a while and then destroys them

7100 Is it not a guide for those who inherited the land after them, that if We wished We could have punished them immediately for their sins? And We stamp on their hearts, so they do not hear.

3360 If the hypocrites, and those with disease in their hearts and those who spread lies in the city do not refrain, then We will let you overpower them, then they will not be able to remain as your neighbours except for a short while.
3361 They are cursed wherever they are found, and they are taken and killed in numbers.

Peace

unknownuser

Peace Phoenix,

Sorry to disappoint you, bro, but I have to say it's not natural in human beings because we have never seen such a case. It may be part of asexually reproducing organisms, but for humans, I doubt it. Unless of course you can bring me some good evidence!
But what exactly does "divine intervention" mean? "intervention" suggests that God is interfering with it's laws (which don't change, so god can't do that). Soul is not a supernatural thing. It's part of God's laws. Everything that exists, whether we can explain it or not, is part of the laws. Nothing is outside it.
And if you believe that natural parthenogenesis is possible in humans, then it opens up that contradiction, again.

But WE are not sea horses or honey bees! we are humans. I have NEVER in my life seen (or seen evidence of) a person born without a father. I cannot believe something just because I want to. It must be supported by evidence. Although I'd love to believe in cool stuff like virgin births, I can't.

False logic bro ....... just because you have never seen such a case in your lifetime does not mean it can never happen. You might never see a comet/asteroid colliding with Earth in your lifetime, doesn't mean it can never happen. You might never see one species mutate and evolve into another species in your lifetime, doesn't mean it can never happen.

Wrong terminology bro ...... perhaps you are using the wrong word "natural" for something that is "the norm" or "usual". An extremely rare phenomenon, happening once in a million years can still be "natural" and even artificial cloning is still "natural" as it is subject to the natural laws and can be done without changing/breaking any natural laws.

Divine intervention is not God changing/breaking the natural laws but making something occur by His command "be" without necessarily changing any natural laws. If it can happen in the DNA of another organism, it is scientifically possible to happen in human DNA. After all, scientists do have the capability to clone a human which is similar to parthenogenesis. DNA of all organisms is similar and parthenogenesis can naturally happen in ANY DNA, it just needs the appropriate stimulus. That appropriate stimulus could be the command "be" of God, or the splicing and physically stimulating techniques of a scientist cloning, or the fertilization by a sperm. All those interventions can result in a cell starting to divide resulting in a fully grown organism. The basic premise is to make a cell start to divide and produce a fully grown organism, which can happen without fertilization by a sperm, due to other stimuli such as the commad "be" of God, without necessarily changing any laws.

I never said soul is a supernatural thing. I said that it is evidence of divine intervention. God intervenes ALL the time. Just one nano second he stops observing/interacting with us and we all might cease to exist. So its best not to be arrogant.

There is no contradiction if parthenogenesis is possible and happens in a human.

The creation and laws are part of the "be" command. God has already done the work. Or maybe that "work" is God. But either way, your example doesn't work. Because it is impossible that the water in my glass would split just when I demand that it split. Water molecules don't move according to my will. But you are saying it can happen if God intervenes. Well, why would a fair God intervene at all? why does Moses get saved and billions of others who die in accidents don't? Why doesn't God save all those people in car accidents when God can very easily can?
How is that fair?
If God works the way you are saying (and god is fair), then no one would get injured, or sick, or die.

God has not already done the work but He KEEPS doing the work. As I already stated above, the whole universe might cease to exist if God stops observing/interacting with it even for a nano second.

My example is not impossible, it can happen with an appropriate technology or stimulus such as the command "be" from God. Are you making God so helpless that He cannot intervene and make something happen by His command "be" without necessarily changing any of His created natural laws ?

God has His reasons for the way He lets things happen and we can never fully understand them sometimes. Maybe it is a test or maybe it is happening because of a free choice made by our own free will. Eventually everyone will have their full and fair recompense and that is what really matters. Millions of years down the road we will remember these sufferings as happening for a blink of an eye. If your theory is correct then no one should suffer, not even for a nano second, cuz then God will be unfair and merciless. That is preposterous.

Not all organisms, all MEN. At least that's what 4913 says. But yes, you are right that the word "kullu" is not used.
If God uses very precise language, God would have made it clear that there are exceptions, especially to clear up the Jesus mess. Not a good argument, this one.

My comment was about the ALL not being mentioned in those verses and not focused on "organisms". I should have written the opening statement like this That ALL organisms are created from a male seed and that ALL mankind is created form a male and female are both unsupported by al-qur'aan and thus incorrect conjectures. God says that He created you (mankind) from a male and a female, but He does not say that He created EVERYONE OF YOU from a male and a female ....... think about it. The language is precise and actually if Jesus's DNA only came from Mary it is still not a contradiction with the statement "We created you (mankind) from a male and a female". Even if one of that mankind didn't have a father, he still was created originally from a male and a female (his DNA even though it came only from Mary, it still was originally created from union of a male and female gamete, because Mary's DNA resulted from a male and a female ........ think about it ....... there is no contradiction).

Well, I don't care what is quranic or un-quranic. I care about what makes sense. And to me, randomly changing laws do not exist in this universe. Every law is constant, and has stayed constant, except in mythological stories. Everything is only possible because the ALL natural laws are constant. that is a fact and it remains a fact whether the quran agrees with it or not.

When did I say that randomly changing laws exist in the universe ? God can make things happen which are different from the norm by His command "be" without changing any natural laws. On the other hand, IF He wishes, He can change those laws intentionally/non randomly too, but He never keeps changing them randomly.

But, does the arabic of the verse say "this sunna" or just "sunna?"

God always mentions a context or situation FIRST and then mentions that His sunnah with reference to that context never changes. Can you produce a verse from al-qur'aan which mentions Allah's sunnah in a general sense without mentioning any specific situation or in the context of any specific situation ?

This is a point I raised in the rest of my post. If I cannot understand the quran, then the quran is a useless piece of horse manure. Why would God give us a book which we can't understand? that's just stupid.
In fact, people 1400 years ago must've been truly lost because they understood even less of it than we do!
I am alive right NOW. I live in the PRESENT. I need guidance NOW. I am not going to wait hoping that some day I'll find out that virgin birth is actually possible.

The basic laws and the governing verses which are necessary for our guidance are crystal clear in al-qur'aan and easy to understand and enough for our guidance (37). God is not gonna question you on the Day of Judgment if Jesus had a virgin birth or not. He will, however, question you if you performed good deeds and led a righteous life and believed in God without setting up partners.

Nevertheless, the fact remains that according to al-qur'aan Jesus was indeed a real man (as he is similar to Adam) and his virgin birth does not create ANY contradictions as I have exhaustively explained in this post and others before it.

Pertinent to the topic of this thread I dont have much else to add. After all, it is only God that guides.

Peace.

Tay

Peace Tanveer,

Intervention as a constant is not intervention - it is a premise. Of course, without God, there would be no universe. But is that really what we're discussing bro? I don't think it is. We're talking about one alleged event in history that, in order to take place as you've described, requires something never before seen and never since seen. Not only unseen, but in defiance of the very laws that we were prepared(inborn) to discover. Not only in defiance of these laws, but perpetuated among a time of red hot assimilation of pagan and new christian cultures, which included a man-made doctrine of zero-tolerance of opposing thought. Looking at all the facts and circumstances objectively, I cannot agree with you.

You have to extrapolate and re-think in order to keep this position in a consistent light. Is this the purpose of God's guidance? To have us scurrying around rearranging everything we've come to know in order to make sense out of some event that happened 2000 years ago and bears zero impact on our personal development? And then what does that prove, that God can do anything? Don't we already know that?

Sure, we have to be patient in what we do and expect, and of course God's law of requital is rock-solid, but we understand nothing about it and would be fooling ourselves if we thought we did. What we know is that it doesn't change, and that in itself is an indictment on your theory that God intervenes. Further, the law of requital does not answer the dilemma that arises when you propose an interfering God. Justice in the afterlife is a given, but interference in this material life cannot be inconsistent and remain justifiable.

The day of reckoning is when each soul will be paid what it has earned (however you wish to interpret that). The law of requital is regarding a nation's actions or lack thereof (however it works). Therefore, if a soul is recompensed or his/her suffering alleviated by God (as a spontaneous or premeditated decision by God), before the day of reckoning, then that soul was given extra-special attention and thus the inconsistency that is incongruent with the Most-Just Creator. The only way to get past this is with pre-existing, stable law that equally governs all people of all time.

Peace,
Tay

unknownuser

Peace Tay,

We're talking about one alleged event in history that, in order to take place as you've described, requires something never before seen and never since seen. Not only unseen, but in defiance of the very laws that we were prepared(inborn) to discover.

Never before seen and never seen since ? What about parthenogenesis ? What about the capability of human cloning ? Dont worry, we should see an XY male cloned out of an XY female soon, in our lifetimes.

In defiance of natural laws ? Parthenogenesis and cloning is in defiance of natural laws ??? A somatic aged cell starting to divide after an appropriate stimulus and producing a fully grown organism is as miraculous as the virgin birth of Jesus. Only ignorance of DNA biochemistry and genetic engineering techniques can make someone deny that. Human DNA is very similar to animal DNA and if parthenogenesis/cloning can occur in a lower animal DNA, it can definitely occur in a human DNA with the appropriate stimulus. The human DNA has all the "machinery" or genetic information to be able to do that with the appropriate stimulus.

You have to extrapolate and re-think in order to keep this position in a consistent light. Is this the purpose of God's guidance? To have us scurrying around rearranging everything we've come to know in order to make sense out of some event that happened 2000 years ago and bears zero impact on our personal development? And then what does that prove, that God can do anything? Don't we already know that?

Yes we already know that, it just reinforces that knowledge ! We always have to keep rearranging everything we know when scientific knowledge advances. Look at how quantum physics rearranged the Newtonian physics, or have you already reached the peak of knowledge and have discovered ALL the laws and all there is to know ?

Sure, we have to be patient in what we do and expect, and of course God's law of requital is rock-solid, but we understand nothing about it and would be fooling ourselves if we thought we did. What we know is that it doesn't change, and that in itself is an indictment on your theory that God intervenes. Further, the law of requital does not answer the dilemma that arises when you propose an interfering God. Justice in the afterlife is a given, but interference in this material life cannot be inconsistent and remain justifiable.

God's law of requital actually proves God's intervention, or does the requital happen by itself without divine intervention ?

There is no dilemma with an interfering God. I did not propose an interfering God but He himself proposes it. There are verses too numerous to count in al-qur'aan which clearly show an interfering God. Unless, of course, if you deny/reject those verses. The interference in this life is inconsistent because of OUR CHOICE.

The day of reckoning is when each soul will be paid what it has earned (however you wish to interpret that). The law of requital is regarding a nation's actions or lack thereof (however it works). Therefore, if a soul is recompensed or his/her suffering alleviated by God (as a spontaneous or premeditated decision by God), before the day of reckoning, then that soul was given extra-special attention and thus the inconsistency that is incongruent with the Most-Just Creator. The only way to get past this is with pre-existing, stable law that equally governs all people of all time.

The problem is that you want to look only at this life to determine God's justice and mercy. That is a myopic approach. I know you are going to say that we can only look at this life but we have also been given the knowledge of the afterlife which makes all the difference. You have a valid point only if we had no knowledge of the hereafter or the hereafter didn't exist. We have to look at the entire continuum and that is the fallacy in your reasoning. There is no extra special attention when one looks at the ENTIRE continuum including all the 3 lives.

You brush off God's constant intervention in the form of observation/interaction as a premise. That is fallacious too. This form of divine intervention is as valid as any other form of divine intervention. Yet you dont accept one kind of divine intervention as an intervention and then deny the existence of other divine interventions.

The concrete fact is that according to al-qur'aan God DOES give evil a respite and then He DOES intervene ........ that is His sunnah/way.

2248 And many a town I have given it respite while it was doing wrong, then I seized it! And to Me is the destiny.

What is the following if not an intervention by God ?

826 And recall when you were but a few who were weak in the land, you were fearful that the people might capture you. But He sheltered you, and He supported you with His victory, and He provided you with good provisions, so that you may be thankful.

12110 Then, when the messengers gave up, and they thought that they have been denied, Our victory came to them. We then save whom We wish, and Our punishment cannot be swayed from the wicked people.

2177 And We granted him victory against the people that denied Our revelations. They were a people of evil, so We drowned them all.

3047 And We have sent before you messengers to their people, so they came to them with clear proofs, then We took revenge on those who were criminals........

66 Did they not see how many generations We have destroyed before them? We granted them dominance over the land more than what We granted you, and We sent the clouds to them abundantly, and We made rivers flow beneath them; then We destroyed them for their sins, and established after them a new generation.

74 And how many a town have We destroyed; for Our punishment came to them while sleeping, or while resting.

There are numerous other verses that show this divine intervention. How can you deny this divine intervention then ?

It is actually OUR fault when God does not intervene in our affairs sooner. WE MAKE THE CHOICE to delay that divine intervention. God promises victory to the believers

3047 And We have sent before you messengers to their people, so they came to them with clear proofs, then We took revenge on those who were criminals, and it is an obligation for Us to grant victory to the believers.

It is up to us to be righteous and God's intervention will definitely come sooner because of His obligation/promise. That is the sole reason why God has been delaying the promised intervention to alleviate suffering nowadays because as a whole, mankind has made the choice not to follow the straight path and not be believers and thus the alleviation of suffering in the form of divine interference is not coming as soon as it should.

In addition to that we are also being too impatient. As I said, chill out bro, the next global catastrophe and Allah's wrath could be around the corner !! Also is everybody forgetting about the plague, the AIDS epidemic, tsunamis, hurricanes, earthquakes and volcanic eruptions, famine, millions dying of malaria etc. ?

Peace

Tay

Peace Tanveer,

This is clearly going in circles now. As I said in the first sentence of my reply, intervention as a constant is not intervention, but a premise. That's what those ayat are expressing. God's laws carry out His justice. He's not floating in the sky throwing lightning bolts at us.

Peace,
Tay

arnoldyasin

peace,

I agree with Tay here that what you call intervention kis just clearly the fixed law of cause and effect that operates through the Universe. As Allah is the Maliki-Yauwme-Deen.

malik=the One with authority and control
yaum=time/aeon/era/day
deen=judgement/cause and effect/system/order/outcome

The One that has complete control and authority on the constant order and system of cause and effect which judgement determines the outcome (of the Universe).

The people got their respite as their behaviour caused an effect which eventually destroyed them. The social laws that determine a society's outcome are just as any Law of Nature.

unknownuser

False logic bro ....... just because you have never seen such a case in your lifetime does not mean it can never happen

peace

no it is you who are playing favorites to defend and old astro theological story about the SUN being born out of the "virgin". that is being superimposed on all stories with similarity. We dont have to witness it ourself, we just need to know one other case of it happening and that will be perfectly ok. Just name one other that is proven.

perhaps you are using the wrong word "natural" for something that is "the norm" or "usual". An extremely rare phenomenon, happening once in a million years can still be "natural" and even artificial cloning is still "natural" as it is subject to the natural laws and can be done without changing/breaking any natural laws.

wrong, it is manipulating the system into doing something it does NOT do in its own, and thats what were looking for here. let the catholics keep their nonsense and not help them spread it further. You are the one speculating. It might happen. but altso it might happen that i wake up tomorrow with a set of tentacles, or wake up with 3 legs. Nature does that, so my claim can be confirmed in other species. a lot of things "might" happen. but if we have no evidence, there is nothing left but mere speculation and defending an undefendable position.

guest

Peace, the law of nature is the laws of The God. Here are few examples of God?s laws

Input God?s command ?be? and dust
Output Human

Input Father (sperm) and mother (egg)
Output Human

Input God?s command ?be?, dust and a mother
Output Human

No laws violated by virgin birth of Jesus based on above laws.

Quran is the truth. If certain scientific events validate certain laws/events of The God then use it as a reassurance of your faith in The God but DO NOT TRY TO VALIDATE THE QURAN WITH SUCH EVIDENCE. Scientists are observing God?s law and trying to formulate it into a mathematical formula. In most cases the formulation is approximate but works for most practical application. For accurate formulation there would be a need for infinite mathematical terms which would render its application useless. In that case you would need infinite processing power. And scientists don?t get it right the first time either (simple observation). Please note scientist cannot make or create natural laws.

Up until certain time Maxwell?s theory was supposed to explain all electromagnetic phenomenon. But then came the quantum electronics which broke Maxwell?s theory.

Another example would be the progression of idea of atom, nucleus/electron, and quark. Many other examples could be cited in this area and in other topics as well. So we have to be very careful about the way we use science in determining our relation with The God.

According to Iqbal/Parwez there are infinite amount of God?s taqdirs. You should consider all taqdirs before declaring a contradiction. For example saving Ibrahim from fire and from sacrificing his son is a taqdir.

More taqdirs- (Parwez If .. Then ? article)

Conviction and good deeds will definitely get you into ?Paradise? (2/25).
If you follow My instructions, you will be free of fear and depression (2/3.
If you spend your wealth in Allah?s way, you will be free of fear and depression (2/262, 2/274, 2/277, 6/48, 46/13).
If you follow the Book in parts and deny some other parts of it, you will have a miserable life here and get severely punished in the hereafter (2/85).
If these people had accepted and adopted a careful life, they would have received the best return (2/103).
If you remember, and not forget, My laws, I will give you an increase in respect and status (2/152).
It would have been better for the people of the Book if they had accepted the Quran (3/109).
If you are Momin (convinced), you will triumph (3/13.
If you die, or are killed, in Allah?s way, you will get His protection and care (3/156).
No one will overpower you if you have Allah?s support (3/159). Allah?s support is given to one who rises to work for His ?din? (22/40), (47/7).
If you accept and lead a careful life, you will be rewarded highly (3/17.
If you keep away from blunders, your flaws will be removed (4/31).
If the people of the Book? has accepted and led a careful life, We would have removed their troubles (5/65). If they had followed Allah?s Word, they would have had plentiful food (5/66). They would have enjoyed bounties of all universe (7/96).
Whoever accepts, and remains fair, gets peace and is guided towards prosperity (6/83).
If you lead a careful life, you will have distinctive life (8/29).
If twenty fighters (in Allah?s way) are steadfast, you will triumph over two hundred of enemy ? it is when you have the same supply and provision of arms. If you are less equipped, you will overcome an enemy double in number than you (8/65-66).
?Imaan? (Acceptance by conviction) and ?taqwaa? (watchful life) are harbinger of good news of good life here and in the hereafter. This is Allah?s firm law and will never change (10/62-64).
Whoever strives in Our Way (to uphold alDin), We will show them the way (29/69).
Whoever is steadfast after ?Imaan?, will have angels descending with good news of being free of fear and depression here and in the hereafter (41/30-31).
?Imaan? and good deeds result in inheritance of earth (political sovereignty) (24/55).
If you shy away from Allah?s laws, you will be replaced by another people (47/38; 9/3.
Whoever shuns Our laws will face a shortage of livelihood.
If you are thankful (use Allah?s bounties according to His laws) you will prosper. Otherwise, you will be punished (14/7).
Whoever gives to others and leads a careful life will have an easy life (92/6-10).
Be steadfast, galvanized and lead a watchful life, so that you succeed (3/199).
The children of Israel were punished with misery and oppression because they had denied and rejected Allah?s laws.

I hope this is of some help.