REF: virgin birth, what about Cloning ?
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Peace,
3047 And We have sent before you messengers to their people, so they came to them with clear proofs, then We took revenge on those who were criminals, and it is an obligation for Us to grant victory to the believers.
It is up to us to be righteous and God's intervention will definitely come sooner because of His obligation/promise. That is the sole reason why God has been delaying the promised intervention to alleviate suffering nowadays because as a whole, mankind has made the choice not to follow the straight path and not be believers and thus the alleviation of suffering in the form of divine interference is not coming as soon as it should.
In addition to that we are also being too impatient. As I said, chill out bro, the next global catastrophe and Allah's wrath could be around the corner !! Also is everybody forgetting about the plague, the AIDS epidemic, tsunamis, hurricanes, earthquakes and volcanic eruptions, famine, millions dying of malaria etc. ?
Allah's victory comes when we follow His Deen, His Divine System. When we do this, He doesn't need to intervene, as we then follow the Divine Laws closely(salat), and through this we will attain victory. Allah already intervened by giving us Revelations that show us how to gain victory in this Life and the Next. When we follow it, He promises us that we will gain the upper hand in life, as we can harness the Divine Laws in Reality to the fullest.
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Peace,
peace
no it is you who are playing favorites to defend and old astro theological story about the SUN being born out of the "virgin". that is being superimposed on all stories with similarity. We dont have to witness it ourself, we just need to know one other case of it happening and that will be perfectly ok. Just name one other that is proven.
wrong, it is manipulating the system into doing something it does NOT do in its own, and thats what were looking for here. let the catholics keep their nonsense and not help them spread it further. You are the one speculating. It might happen. but altso it might happen that i wake up tomorrow with a set of tentacles, or wake up with 3 legs. Nature does that, so my claim can be confirmed in other species. a lot of things "might" happen. but if we have no evidence, there is nothing left but mere speculation and defending an undefendable position.
Just because someone doesn't understand something, doesn't mean it cannot happen. To say that a position is undefendable in absolute terms and saying something cannot happen just shows outright arrogance and ignorance.
If someone had told someone 500 years ago that an airplane, rocket, computer, radar, radio, television, electricity, nuclear bomb etc. are possible and will happen one day, that person would have possibly said the same what you are saying ..........
On your own you won't even get cooked food, unless you first manipulate it, so I guess cooked food then is unnatural !! Nothing can happen without some manipulation and the biggest manipulation and the biggest law of nature is the command "be" of God, which unfortunately you will never comprehend, unless God wills otherwise.
Galileo and Copernicus faced people just like you !! I don't see any difference between what Father Tommasco Caccini (1574-164 said and what Cardinal Roberto Bellarmino said in 1616 and what you are saying ! History does repeat itself !!
Peace
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Peace Arnold, all,
Allah already intervened by giving us Revelations
Thank you for proving my point about divine intervention !!!!!
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Peace Arnold, all,
Thank you for proving my point about divine intervention !!!!!
Yes, but does this mean breaking the Divine Laws of the Universe? I don't believe so, these Revelations were intertwined into the Design of Allah's Will when He made the Universe.
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peace Tanveer,
False logic bro ....... just because you have never seen such a case in your lifetime does not mean it can never happen. You might never see a comet/asteroid colliding with Earth in your lifetime, doesn't mean it can never happen. You might never see one species mutate and evolve into another species in your lifetime, doesn't mean it can never happen.
Wrong terminology bro ...... perhaps you are using the wrong word "natural" for something that is "the norm" or "usual". An extremely rare phenomenon, happening once in a million years can still be "natural" and even artificial cloning is still "natural" as it is subject to the natural laws and can be done without changing/breaking any natural laws.
It's not false logic. I said I either have to see it or see some evidence (sign) of it. There is nothing that can make me believe that Jesus was born without a father except your interpretation of ONE book. That's not enough.
And if it is so rare, so rare that we will probably never see such a thing in our lives, then why is God using it as an example? I don't think the quran would use some weird, rare phenomenon to explain something simple to us, because then people wouldn't understand it. I'm not going to sit on my behind and wait for guidance some time in the future. I'm living my life right now, so I need it right now. If I"m not going to understand the quran, then I'll look somewhere else.
And by natural I did mean natural, not "normal." If I'm going to consider something naturally occuring, I should have an example of it in the past. There needs to be some evidence supporting it. In this case, there isn't any.God has not already done the work but He KEEPS doing the work. As I already stated above, the whole universe might cease to exist if God stops observing/interacting with it even for a nano second.
I think Tay explained this well, if God intervenes all the time, then God isn't intervening at all. God's laws are at work all the time, and everything would fall apart if God intervenes. And care to explain the quantum mechanics part?
My example is not impossible, it can happen with an appropriate technology or stimulus such as the command "be" from God. Are you making God so helpless that He cannot intervene and make something happen by His command "be" without necessarily changing any of His created natural laws ?
I'm not making God helpless, I'm making God sane and fair and just. You are suggesting an insane world where nothing is constant because God keeps tweaking the events to help his special people. Maybe what you are suggesting CAN happen (I don't think it does), but even if it can, why would god intervene with his "be" thingy with Jesus and not with all the victims of cancers and car accidents that can easily be saved with the "be" command? How is that fair?
God has His reasons for the way He lets things happen and we can never fully understand them sometimes. Maybe it is a test or maybe it is happening because of a free choice made by our own free will. Eventually everyone will have their full and fair recompense and that is what really matters. Millions of years down the road we will remember these sufferings as happening for a blink of an eye. If your theory is correct then no one should suffer, not even for a nano second, cuz then God will be unfair and merciless. That is preposterous.
Please don't use the test argument! I can say that this universe is controlled by Aliens, and that believing it is hard but it is a test, so even though there is no evidence you must believe. I don't know if you understood me correctly, I didn't say no one should suffer. I said that if God keeps intervening with his "be" thing, that's when it would be like that. but it's not like that, which means God isn't intervening, which means God never intervened, which proves that jesus had two parents or isn't a person.
We may not understand everything in this universe, but we CAN understand everything in the quran.The basic laws and the governing verses which are necessary for our guidance are crystal clear in al-qur'aan and easy to understand and enough for our guidance (37). God is not gonna question you on the Day of Judgment if Jesus had a virgin birth or not. He will, however, question you if you performed good deeds and led a righteous life and believed in God without setting up partners.
I think believing in virgin birht or not is important. Because you could be believing in falehood, following your desires instead. We need to examine it and understand what is true and what is not. Also, how does virgin birth help us live a righteous life?
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Peace Phoenix,
There needs to be some evidence supporting it. In this case, there isn't any.
There is evidence supporting it. Isn't the evidence of al-qur'aan enough ? for me it is. I haven't verified with 100 % certainty that there is afterlife but I believe in it based on qur'aanic evidence alone. Or do you think that the afterlife is also "unnatural"/impossible ?
And by natural I did mean natural, not "normal."
Parthenogenesis is also natural and cloning is also natural in the sense that no natural laws are broken.
If you intervene/manipulate/provide stimulus and cook food to eat, does that mean that the cooked food is "unnatural" ? If you intervene/manipulate/provide stimulus and kill an animal or plant to eat it, wouldn't that be "unnatural" too then ? If you intervene/manipulate/provide stimulus and kill a sheep and use its wool as cloth to cover your body, isn't that "unnatural" too then ?
The "be" command of God is a natural law and anything that results from it is also natural. Normally, does the egg start dividing by itself without intervention/manipulation/stimulus by a sperm ? Then the normal birth is also "unnatural" cuz it results only after manipulation/intervention/stimulus and not on its own.
Just like normally an egg starts dividing after a stimulus of a sperm (which actually cannot occur without the "be" command of God in the first place), similarly the egg or a somatic cell can start dividing by the stimulus of the "be" command of God or the genetic engineering techniques of a scientist. The human DNA has built in capability or genetic programming to be able to start dividing "naturally" after an appropriate stimulus/intervention/manipulation, be it a sperm or the "be" command of God or genetic manipulation of a scientist.
There has to be some sort of intervention/manipulation/stimulus for EVERY natural process to occur in this universe (please educate yourself about quantum physics, there are a lot of resources out there, but then i guess you will have to manipulate yourself into reading which will make it "unnatural" !!)
If I'm going to consider something naturally occuring, I should have an example of it in the past.
Is there an example of a large enough comet striking the earth in the past causing TOTAL annihilation of Earth ? If not, then can you logically/scientifically infer that it cannot naturally happen EVER ?
Is there an example of resurrection and a next life in the past that can be scientifically verified ? If not, then can you logically/scientifically infer that it cannot happen in the future EVER ? and if it happens, you think that it will be "unnatural" ?
Is there an example in the past that another planet in the universe is habitable enough to support humans ? If not, then can you logically/scientifically infer that NO habitable planet exists in the universe or can exist EVER ?
Go back 500 years. At that time humans had no scientific evidence about existence of atoms, or quarks, or quasars and pulsars. Can someone at that time then logically/scientifically infer that atoms, or quarks, or quasars and pulsars don't exist, just because there was no example or evidence yet ?
I think Tay explained this well, if God intervenes all the time, then God isn't intervening at all. God's laws are at work all the time, and everything would fall apart if God intervenes. And care to explain the quantum mechanics part?
Wow, what an oxymoron ........ if God intervenes all the time, then God isn't intervening at all !!!! what an illogical sentence. This sentence should take the cake in illogical and oxymoron sentences !! bravo
Please do me a favor and educate yourself about the role of an observer/interactor at the quantum level, then you will realize how God intervenes in EACH and EVERY process of this universe. Everything will fall apart if God DOES NOT intervene.
Even Arnold admits that God intervenes ! please see one of his posts above.
Even God tells us that He has intervened numerous times, but I guess for you al-qur'aan is no evidence.
Even if nothing else is evidence for you, just according to quantum physics, if there is no EXTERNAL observer/interactor OUTSIDE the known universe even for a nano second, the whole universe will fall apart and cease to exist.
I'm not making God helpless, I'm making God sane and fair and just. You are suggesting an insane world where nothing is constant because God keeps tweaking the events to help his special people. Maybe what you are suggesting CAN happen (I don't think it does), but even if it can, why would god intervene with his "be" thingy with Jesus and not with all the victims of cancers and car accidents that can easily be saved with the "be" command? How is that fair?
The problem is that you are only considering a tiny window in the space/time continuum (this life) and trying to judge God's mercy and fairness based on that. To judge God's fairness in an objective way, one has to consider the ENTIRE continuum from the previous life to this life to the next life in the hereafter. Eventually everything will have its full recompense and reward. The sufferings in this life will appear to have happened only for a blink of an eye, billions of years from now. Eventually all the sufferings of everyone will balance out and it will be totally fair. The reason God doesn't intervene always in all sufferings is cuz most of them we choose by our own free will !
We may not understand everything in this universe, but we CAN understand everything in the quran.
I guess you are denying/rejecting 37 then ?
I think believing in virgin birht or not is important. Because you could be believing in falehood, following your desires instead. We need to examine it and understand what is true and what is not.
Then let us be patient. Maybe some new law will be discovered in the future which we still dont know about which will explain a lot of unexplained phenomenon or we might have a witnessed duplication of the virgin birth in humans in the future. We are almost there as we have the technology to clone humans which is the same as virgin birth. In cloning the stimulus is the splicing and genetic engineering techniques, in virgin birth the stimulus is the "be" command of God. The end result is the same ....... i.e. production of a fully grown human from a single cell without fertilization from a sperm. If the stimulus is from a scientist then ..... omg its not natural, but if the stimulus is from God then it is natural even though no laws were changed in both instances ? Let us not be arrogant and thus reveal our ignorance.
Peace
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Peace,
Tanveer, i didn't say Allah intervened in such a way as you present it, as the Revelations are part of the Universe's Design. They are part of His Kalimat, Decree and Creation. This conversation has turned out dry. To believe in the virginbirth, you have to hold on to a very wide interpretation of the story, it is 'supported' not by a natural phenomena, but a genetically altered one. It doesn't guide us, and even if your view is true, then still it is not a miracle, but just a rare natural phenomena. Which again shows Allah doesn't intervene in His Creation as His Laws are enough to carry out His plan. Mary gave birth to Jesus in a normal way, he had a father. She was ordered to go against the monastry rules, and thus against society rules and trust on Allah's Laws to give her victory. The message of the story is to reject celibacy and fight culteral rules that are not made by Allah, which is the main message throughout the whole Quran. And always believe that His Guidance will always create victory.
Allah CAN intervene, but why should He? I believe in His Omnipotence that He perfectly Designed the Universe so that He doesn't need to intervene. When people follow His Laws, salat=following closely, they will gain the best position. This can be seen today, where the scientific people are on top, and the superstitious people are the most poor and less developed in the world.
This is why Allah doesn't change His Kalimat, His Word and Design of the Creation. As He is Maliki-YauwmeDeen, the One who is in complete control over the constant System of Cause and Effect that carry out His Judgement in the Universe.
People find it scary most of the time when they discover this. They feel a bit left alone, but this is not so. Allah's Guidance is here who perfectly shows us how to master the Creation, as the Malikah, the ones in control and authority, have submitted to Adam, to mankind. The Laws of the Universe are there to guide us to perfection. If Allah continiously intervened, the Laws would be flawed in guiding us.
All of Allah's help and punishment are hidden inside the Laws of the Universe, so when we follow these Laws closely, we are helped. When we go against them, by breaking human rights or commit idolatry or believe in supernatural, the Laws turn against us, as they are made to do so.
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Just because someone doesn't understand something, doesn't mean it cannot happen. To say that a position is undefendable in absolute terms and saying something cannot happen just shows outright arrogance and ignorance.
are you calling me ignorant? Im asking you where is the data? real data
If someone had told someone 500 years ago that an airplane, rocket, computer, radar, radio, television, electricity, nuclear bomb etc.
So you are speculating that in the future, men will be unneccecery for child births? or how am i to understand this.
On your own you won't even get cooked food, unless you first manipulate it, so I guess cooked food then is unnatural !!
Cooked food happen in nature by itself. Lightning as one of the occurances, and one speculated to have started our taste for meat as dish.
Nothing can happen without some manipulation and the biggest manipulation and the biggest law of nature is the command "be" of God, which unfortunately you will never comprehend, unless God wills otherwise.
so you ARE stating that im ignorant becasue i refuse to take on a story of babylonian origin, when i know how fucked up those guys where.
Galileo and Copernicus faced people just like you !! I don't see any difference between what Father Tommasco Caccini (1574-164 said and what Cardinal Roberto Bellarmino said in 1616 and what you are saying ! History does repeat itself !!
Peace
ibndeed it does, greetings to babylon from here, hope you enjoy the stay!
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Peace Arnold,
Allah already intervened by giving us Revelations
i didn't say Allah intervened in such a way as you present it, as the Revelations are part of the Universe's Design. They are part of His Kalimat, Decree and Creation.
You are contradicting yourself here.
You mean to say that the words of al-qur'aan got randomly ordered and assembled into verses and then a book without God's intervention/stimulus ? If they are a part of the universe's design, the universe got created randomly without intervention/guidance from God ? If they are part of His decree and creation, the words decree and creation themselves prove intervention !
Under natural laws the subatomic particles don't automatically get into an ordered state without intervention from a higher intelligence. Natural laws always lead to chaos/disorder without intervention. You are violating the second law of thermodynamics/entropy and quantum physics when you make these kind of statements.
Please study entropy, second law of thermodynamics and quantum physics before you make these kind of careless statements of no intervention from God.
To believe in the virginbirth, you have to hold on to a very wide interpretation of the story, it is 'supported' not by a natural phenomena, but a genetically altered one.
You mean to say that when an egg is fertilized by a sperm the resultant DNA is not genetically altered ? No offense but those kinds of statements are disappointing coming from you !
These are the three scenarios, all of them are "natural", and they all need some stimulus/intervention/manipulation, and they all result in a genetically altered DNA
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Sperm stimulates egg (stimulus/intervention) -----------> division (genetic alteration of DNA of different cells in different stages and by union of sperm and egg) ----------> human being
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Nucleus of somatic cell placed in enucleated egg (stimulus/intervention) ----------> division (genetic alteration of DNA) ----------> human being (cloning)
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"Be" command of God stimulates egg (stimulus/intervention) ---------> division (genetic alteration of DNA) -------------> human being (virgin birth)
ALL OF THESE THREE SCENARIOS ARE NATURAL (no natural laws broken/changed), all of them need an intervention/stimulus, and DNA is genetically altered in all of them.
Allah CAN intervene, but why should He? I believe in His Omnipotence that He perfectly Designed the Universe so that He doesn't need to intervene. When people follow His Laws, salat=following closely, they will gain the best position. This can be seen today, where the scientific people are on top, and the superstitious people are the most poor and less developed in the world.
This is why Allah doesn't change His Kalimat, His Word and Design of the Creation. As He is Maliki-YauwmeDeen, the One who is in complete control over the constant System of Cause and Effect that carry out His Judgement in the Universe.
People find it scary most of the time when they discover this. They feel a bit left alone, but this is not so. Allah's Guidance is here who perfectly shows us how to master the Creation, as the Malikah, the ones in control and authority, have submitted to Adam, to mankind. The Laws of the Universe are there to guide us to perfection. If Allah continiously intervened, the Laws would be flawed in guiding us.
All of Allah's help and punishment are hidden inside the Laws of the Universe, so when we follow these Laws closely, we are helped. When we go against them, by breaking human rights or commit idolatry or believe in supernatural, the Laws turn against us, as they are made to do so.
The only way one can deny God's intervention and accept your explanation is by denying/rejecting hundreds of verses of al-qur'aan, too numerous to mention, which all mention direct intervention of God in one form or the other, rejecting quantum physics, and rejecting entropy/second law of thermodynamics. Lakum deenukum waliya deen.
Peace
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Peace Magi,
are you calling me ignorant? Im asking you where is the data? real data
I apologize if you thought I was calling you ignorant. All of us, including yours truly, are ignorant of something or the other, as none of us are perfect. Being ignorant is not that bad, it could be a blessing sometimes
The real data is al-qur'aan, but I am sure you will refuse to accept that real data just like Tommasco Caccini and Roberto Bellarmino refused to accept real data presented by Galileo.
So you are speculating that in the future, men will be unneccecery for child births? or how am i to understand this.
Cloning of humans is not speculation any more.
Cooked food happen in nature by itself. Lightning as one of the occurances, and one speculated to have started our taste for meat as dish.
I was talking about food cooked by you, that food will be unnatural according to your definitions cuz you manipulated it.
so you ARE stating that im ignorant becasue i refuse to take on a story of babylonian origin, when i know how ****ed up those guys where.
Your comment is irrelevant to my statement. In that statement I didnt say you were ignorant. You know about the "be" command of God so how can you be ignorant of that ? I was trying to say that based on the statements you made in your post it appears that you will never understand that "be" command of God is itself a divine law, and then I qualified it at the end by saying "unless God wills otherwise", so I didn't make it an absolute statement.
Peace
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peace, no worries Tanveer ;D
The real data is al-qur'aan, but I am sure you will refuse to accept that real data just like Tommasco Caccini and Roberto Bellarmino refused to accept real data presented by Galileo.
there is no comparison here. Galileo was protesting against Bible thumbers, as i am against Quran thumbers. Galileo insisted that we witness things around us for evidence as opposed to looking in a book, as do i, you insist that we look in a book and reject things around us as did they etc.
Cloning of humans is not speculation any more.
i know, but we still dont see it happen by itself anywhere, nor have we ever, nor will we ever. because then it would mean that God changed his mind since he created us man and woman.
I was talking about food cooked by you, that food will be unnatural according to your definitions cuz you manipulated it.
No because i can witness it happen without me manipulating it. So to stay in your street, where does cloning of humans happen without interference in the same way? nowhere, thats where!
Your comment is irrelevant to my statement. In that statement I didnt say you were ignorant. You know about the "be" command of God so how can you be ignorant of that ?
im not, im just not buying into your interpretation of it.
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The only way one can deny God's intervention and accept your explanation is by denying/rejecting hundreds of verses of al-qur'aan, too numerous to mention, which all mention direct intervention of God in one form or the other, rejecting quantum physics, and rejecting entropy/second law of thermodynamics. Lakum deenukum waliya deen.
Salam aleikum, dear Tanveer,
You misunderstood me because I hadn't explained clear enough. The possibility to reveal a Revelation to mankind, was already made during the construct of th3e Universe. For a man to make contact with Allah, was already implanted into the Laws of the Universe. This has to do with the Quantum Field
http//19.org/index.php?id=91,419,0,0,1,0
So I agree of course that the Revelation jumps in on the circumstances where the Prophet was in, as our Destiny is based on Free Will. But the circumstances to make such contact doesn't go against the Laws of the Universe. Allah didn't need to devaite from His Laws. This is the whole thing.
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Quote from Tanveer Thank you for proving my point about divine intervention !!!!!
Quote from Arnold Yes, but does this mean breaking the Divine Laws of the Universe? I don't believe so, these Revelations were intertwined into the Design of Allah's Will when He made the Universe.
In general a system has initial condition, inputs and outputs. In the system under discussion, if one allows only human input into the system then one may notice the apparent contradiction of breaking the Divine Laws of the Universe. If one accepts God?s input into the system then the contradiction disappear. Does God?s input make the system imperfect? How (If He has designed the system that way to start with)? Is The God not allowed to provide an input into the system? Did The God forbid this for himself? Is there a Quranic verse that confirms this prohibition?
Peace.
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The only way one can deny God's intervention and accept your explanation is by denying/rejecting hundreds of verses of al-qur'aan, too numerous to mention, which all mention direct intervention of God in one form or the other, rejecting quantum physics, and rejecting entropy/second law of thermodynamics. Lakum deenukum waliya deen.
Peace
Exactly
Thanks
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Salam aleikum, dear Tanveer,
You misunderstood me because I hadn't explained clear enough. The possibility to reveal a Revelation to mankind, was already made during the construct of th3e Universe. For a man to make contact with Allah, was already implanted into the Laws of the Universe. This has to do with the Quantum Field
http//19.org/index.php?id=91,419,0,0,1,0
So I agree of course that the Revelation jumps in on the circumstances where the Prophet was in, as our Destiny is based on Free Will. But the circumstances to make such contact doesn't go against the Laws of the Universe. Allah didn't need to devaite from His Laws. This is the whole thing.
Hello bro
look man, to be honest, all you say about Allah is nothing but rubbish and lies
I thought you repented man
Salam
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Peace,
To be honest AB, you are not the authority on the Quran or Islam and never will be. You are only the authority on AB's view and I only on AY's view. If people reject or accept a view is on them. For the rest you have no authority, and this is hard for you to accept.
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Peace guest, all,
You stated
If one accepts God?s input into the system then the contradiction disappear.
The system IS God's input. Fiddling with it does not make it contradictory, imo, it makes it nonsensical. This debate is the crux of opposing views the literal vs metaphorical understanding of God's guidance. The literalists take the position that an angel disguised as a man visited Marium and told her that although she's a virgin, she will become pregnant and have baby Isa. And this pregnancy, though as of yet unexplained by the literalists, was the result of direct manipulation of Marium's body by God Himself. Personally speaking, I have no problem with someone taking this view if it strengthens their faith or conviction or whatever.
What I have a problem with is when people try to bring science and logic into this discussion when it has no place considering the nature of this view. Sure, we can clone animals, and in all likelihood, eventually humans as well. But that doesn't answer the questions that arise when you adopt a supernatural understanding of the ayat.
For instance
- What happened to the body of the person that was disguised as an angel?
- How was Marium impregnated?
The common answers are
- It wasn't a physical body but an apparition, a vision.
If that's the case then it's nonsensical and thus supernatural. And this is OK. But let's not pretend that it is not supernatural. - God said "be" and the egg became fertilized.
Again, if that's the case then it's nonsensical and thus supernatural. And this is OK as well.
Why are folks so bent on trying to make the supernatural seem natural?
Most who believe in this story as described don't bother with trying to explain it because in their understanding, God said it is so, and that works for them. No problem.
The people who are wriggling to bring science and logic into the equation are as of yet a mystery to me. Perhaps there is some inner turmoil and struggle to wrap their minds around this. I went through a similar phase and found myself eventually adopting the metaphorical understanding for most of the qur'an. I can't help that. That's how my mind works.In the end, it matters very little. To each his/her own as we keep 569 in mind.
Peace,
Tay -
Peace,
To be honest AB, you are not the authority on the Quran or Islam and never will be.
Salam
I never claimed to be an authority on the Quran, however I claim to be an authority in the Arabic language that you are manipulating
You are only the authority on AB's view and I only on AY's view.
Yep, however your views is abusing and manipulating the Quran and I will fight that hard
If people reject or accept a view is on them. For the rest you have no authority, and this is hard for you to accept.
I accept other views except those who manipulate Allah words, I consider them enemy to the religion to be honest
Salam
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peace Tanveer
There is evidence supporting it. Isn't the evidence of al-qur'aan enough ? for me it is. I haven't verified with 100 % certainty that there is afterlife but I believe in it based on qur'aanic evidence alone. Or do you think that the afterlife is also "unnatural"/impossible ?
No, the evidence of al quran isn't enough for me. I can't take the quran's word for everything. I need to verify it.
I think this is the ultimate difference between our understandings. I think Tay said in his above post what I would say here. If you want to have "faith" and take the quran's word for everything, then that's fine. If you want to believe in miracles, that's fine. But you can't mix supernatural with science which is what you are trying to do.
I don't think that the quran's words are enough, because that would be blind faith.There has to be some sort of intervention/manipulation/stimulus for EVERY natural process to occur in this universe (please educate yourself about quantum physics, there are a lot of resources out there, but then i guess you will have to manipulate yourself into reading which will make it "unnatural" !!)
"If god intervenes all the time, he's not intervening at all" is what I said. And I may not have been clear enough, but God's intervention is constant. There is no increasing or decreasing amount of intervention. The intervention is the status quo. So unless there is some extra input, there isn't any intervention going on.
God's intervention is god's laws. They work constantly and they don't change. The laws dictate that a sperm is needed to fertilize the egg. God's "be" command cannot replace the sperm. If it does, as you say, then that IS changing the natural way of things (because except in Jesus's case God has never done that). That means it is supernatural. And if you want to believe in it that way, then that's fine.Is there an example of a large enough comet striking the earth in the past causing TOTAL annihilation of Earth ? If not, then can you logically/scientifically infer that it cannot naturally happen EVER ?
of course not. But in Jesus's case, it's not the result of parthenogenesis or whatever, it's the result of God impregnating Mary. Which has never happened before and will never happen. It is supernatural. According to you it di d happen, but you have to acknowledge it as supernatural.
Even Arnold admits that God intervenes ! please see one of his posts above.
Even God tells us that He has intervened numerous times, but I guess for you al-qur'aan is no evidence.
Even if nothing else is evidence for you, just according to quantum physics, if there is no EXTERNAL observer/interactor OUTSIDE the known universe even for a nano second, the whole universe will fall apart and cease to exist.
God does not intervene. The quran never says (at least to me) that god intervenes.
And I know that you are referring to the copenhagen interpretation. Nothing actually exists until someone observes it . The problem with that is that it's only a story and not actually a fact based theory. I think Roger Penrose has solved the problem. But I'm not a physicist, so I don't know. But even if the copenhagen interpretation did work, I don't see how observing is the same as interacting/intervening. I watch movies, but I don't control what happens in them.The problem is that you are only considering a tiny window in the space/time continuum (this life) and trying to judge God's mercy and fairness based on that. To judge God's fairness in an objective way, one has to consider the ENTIRE continuum from the previous life to this life to the next life in the hereafter. Eventually everything will have its full recompense and reward. The sufferings in this life will appear to have happened only for a blink of an eye, billions of years from now. Eventually all the sufferings of everyone will balance out and it will be totally fair. The reason God doesn't intervene always in all sufferings is cuz most of them we choose by our own free will !
Wrong answer. Try again.
If God interferes in THIS world for some people. Why not for all people? I'm not talking about space-time continuums or afterlives.I guess you are denying/rejecting 37 then ?
Either that, or maybe the quran isn't saying that we can't understand the quran, or maybe the quran isn't even talking about itself, but the signs of the universe.
Then let us be patient. Maybe some new law will be discovered in the future which we still dont know about which will explain a lot of unexplained phenomenon or we might have a witnessed duplication of the virgin birth in humans in the future. We are almost there as we have the technology to clone humans which is the same as virgin birth. In cloning the stimulus is the splicing and genetic engineering techniques, in virgin birth the stimulus is the "be" command of God. The end result is the same ....... i.e. production of a fully grown human from a single cell without fertilization from a sperm. If the stimulus is from a scientist then ..... omg its not natural, but if the stimulus is from God then it is natural even though no laws were changed in both instances ? Let us not be arrogant and thus reveal our ignorance.
I can't be patient. If I can't understand the quran NOW, it's useless to me. I don't know if I'll even be there in the future. What am I supposed to do until then? And humans cloning other animals is not the same as God magically impregnating Mary.
What it all comes down to is whether you believe in supernatural miracles or not. You do. I don't. And, Tanveer, although I agree with you on some things, we'll have to agree to disagree. We've both presented our arguments as clearly as we can, and hopefully we all will be guided to the truth.
peace -
Peace,
Although i completely agree with Tay, I must point to one thing. Is taking the virginbirth from the Mary story a literal reading and taking it as not a virginbirth a metaphorical one? Since when?
The Malikah says she will have a child, Mary says how, I've never been touched? >>>does this literally mean a virginbirth? No, it depends on how you interpretate the verses. It depends on the timeframes you percieve between the different situations the Quran tells about. It also depends on how you approach 'no man has ever touched me', as meaning that no man will ever touch her, or that you just read that till then, no man has touched her, which is literally what she is saying and nothing more.
So this has NOTHING to do with literal or metaphorical. This only has to do with timeframes, interpretation on what the persons are implying with their words and what Allah will do and will not do in His creation.
The interpretations and timeframes are determined on what Allah will do and will not do. So if a person needs miracles to believe in Allah's Wisdom and Power, then it will read miracles into anything as this is the way he has programmed himself to interpretate texts.