REF: virgin birth, what about Cloning ?
-
http//i5.photobucket.com/albums/y164/noahdk/day.gif
The Sun rises in the East, and sets in the West.
The Sun is a Chariot of Fire. It travels, like a chariot, and it's on fire. The Sun is the Unquenchable Fire. It is the fire which never dies. The Sun is like a burning bush which is not consumed.
During the day the Sun gives us light and warmth. That's good.
http//i5.photobucket.com/albums/y164/noahdk/night.gif
At night the Sun travels under the world back to the East so it can rise again. It travels through the underworld, i.e. under-world, - under the world.
During the day the Sun gives us light and warmth. That's good. At night the Sun no longer gives us that light and warmth. That's bad. Darkness has always been the natural enemy of man.
Evil is dark. For example, we talk about a person's "dark side" when referring to his or her evil tendencies. Evil is black, the color of darkness. The stereotypical villain wears black, whereas the stereotypical good person wears white, a bright color reminiscent of light. Nighttime is an evil time when our world is dark and black. The Devil is the "Prince of Darkness," literally. And we have a black square cube, go figure.
http//i5.photobucket.com/albums/y164/noahdk/heavenhell.gif
Heaven and Hell are not just theologically opposite, they are geometrically opposite. Heaven is up. Hell is down. Heaven is and has always been up above. Hell is and has always been down below, under the earth.
Go outside at night and look up and you are literally looking at heaven. And what do you see? You see all the stars, which make up all the constellations.
Hell is hot and on fire, because the sun is hot and on fire and the sun goes down there every night, setting everything ablaze.
these are some of the basics to understanding why this claim is wrong, wrong, wrong and more wrong.
On August 23rd the sun enters the house of Virgo the virgin. Virgo is the virgin that figuratively gives birth to the sun each year when the sun passes out of Virgo. Even though Virgo gives birth, she remains a virgin, just as Mary is the virgin who gives birth to Jesus and yet remains a virgin.
A star on the shoulder of the Virgin Mary was a traditional symbol in all art prior to the 1600's. The star is derived from the star 'Spica', which is the brightest star in the constellation Virgo.1 'Spica' is Latin for "ear of wheat," which Virgo holds in her hand. The sun's ecliptic path passes very close to this bright star as it moves through Virgo. Hence when the sun reaches Spica, it's time to harvest the wheat. Virgo is also sometimes depicted as holding an ear of corn.
Food and drink are literally the elements which sustain life. Mother earth brings forth food which grows up out of the ground. Because life springs forth from the earth, the earth is given the female role of mother, since it is from the female that life emerges. And if earth is the mother, then the father must be the god above who pours down rain from the sky impregnating the earth. This is why God above is a masculine "He" instead of a feminine "She" or a sexless "it."The sun/son is born or re-born in four different ways
Christmas Day (three days after the Winter Solstice).
By passing out of Virgo the virgin.
The dawn of every new day the sun arises born again.
Solar eclipse.
and now, for some reason some of you are trying to resell me this old mumbo jumbo, but the question is....why?
#get the full story here http//members.cox.net/deleyd/religion/index.htm#solarmyth
-
Peace Tay, what is your definition of preciseness. Give me your error bar. Remember the lesson from Physics I lab.
An easier way to take care of your concern would be to show that two couple successfully produced offspring under diffrent environments i.e. diameter of eggs were different, one sperm had a shorter tail than the other, different DNA and many other variables I don?t want to get into.
-
Good post Magi,
Here is an excerpt from an article about Christian symbolism etc
- The Sun A little difficult to ignore, don't you think. If the sun, which is the
source of all life fails to come up the next morning the ancient people would not have lived long and they knew this. The Sun invigorates you with it's energy and
causes the crops to grow. The Sun gives up it's life force to provide us with
warmth and food and many other things. So it could be said that the Sun of God
gives it's life up for US and it is the TRUE SAVIOR for it has risen-"Risen Savior"
When the ancient people would track the Sun on the "Sun dial", as it still does
today, the Sun traveles South until the Winter Solstice when it cold and harsh,
representing death and the Sun would stop "ON THE SUN DIAL FOR THREE
DAYS and on December 25th, the Sun would be said "To be BORN AGAIN" on
the CROSS OF THE ZODIAC" after having died for three days. This is when the
Sun begins it's annual journey back to the Northern Hemisphere.
The Ancient calender also started at a different time. It began in Virgo and ended
in leo, that is why the Sphynx has the head of a Virgin and the Body of a Lion.
When the Sun of God was re-born, it was in the Constellation of Virgo, so it was
said "Born of a Virgin". The Sun is the "Eye of God" or "Eye of Horus". Ra was
the Sun God in Egypt. His full name was Amen Ra. That is why we say "A-men"
after our prayers. The Egyptians knew this and all of the Egyptian beliefs and
customs are built into our society secretly by the Freemasons. Both symbols
below are the Sun.
aaaaaaaa
The Origin of the Trinity, the father, the sun, and the holy spirit. Horus comes up
at the "Hor-izon". He is born, this is the beginning, 1200 he is the "Most High",
and then the Sun "Sets", hence "Set" or "Satan", the prince of darkness does battle with the light of the world and wins, until the Sun is re-born the next day. This is
a representation of the evolution of life. The birth, or the beginning, mid-life
starting in your teen years, and old age, leading to death, the end of life. This is
also symbolized in other religions going very far back. In India, there is Brahma,
the Father, Vishnu, the Son, and Shiva.In Malachai 42 of the Old Testament, it states "But unto you, fear my name,
shall the Sun of rightiousness arise with healing in his wings." Look at the above
symbol from egypt of the Sun and his wings. Jesus was supposed to have 12
apostles. These were the 12 Houses of the Zodiac.In the book of Job Chapter 3833 "Knowest thou the ordinances of heaven?
3831 "Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Plei-a-des or loose the bands of
Orion?" 3832 "Canst thou bring forth Mazz-a-roth in his season? or canst thou
guide Arc-tu-rus with his sons?" This is all in reference to the zodiac and
astrology. The definition of Mazzaroth in the King James Version of the bible is
"The twelve houses of the zodiac".Jesus is said to have fed his people with two fishes and five loaves. The two
fishes represent "Pisces" and the age of Pisces or that particular House of the
Zodiac. That is why Jesus is referred to as the "great fisherman". It is also why the
Pope's headdress is shaped like a fish. If you turn it sideways you will see this.
Rome ruled the world for 2000 years under the age of Pisces. "Dogon" is the fish
God, which is what is actually represented. The New Testament is Astrology.In Matthew 2820 it states "Surely I am with you always, to the very end of the
age". What is being talked about is the "End of the Age", the age of "Pisces". The
end of the "Age" is often mistaken for the "end of the world", creating the
"Apocalypse fears". Joshua was called the Son of Nun, which in Hebrew means
"fish". The new "Age of Aquarius" is coming. The symbol for the age of Aquarius
is the "Water-bearer", or the man with a water pitcher.In Luke 2210, when jesus is asked by his 12 apostles where he will go to settle
his new kingdom, he responds, "Behold, when ye arew entered into the city, there
shall a man meet you bearing a pitcher of water, follow him into the house where
he entereth in." This is the "House of Aquarius".In Matthew 1232, "The holy spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the
age to come." In Matthew 1339, "The harvest is the end of the age, and the
harvesters are angels". 1340 "As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire,
so it will be at the end of the age". In Matthew 243 "and what will be the sign of
your coming and of the end of the age?" and from Luke 1830 "the kingdom of
God will fail to recieve many times as nmuch in this age and, in the age to come,
eternal life." First Corinthians 36, "We do, however, speak a message of wisdom
among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age who
are coming to nothing". Hebrews 65 "Who have tasted the goodness of the word
of god and the powers of the coming age". and in Revelation 153 "Great and
marvelous are you Lord God Almighty. Just and true are your ways, King of the
Ages."--The Sun, our Lord, is the King of the Ages
and we are in the "End Times" and entering a "New Age". There is nothing to fear
in this regard, of a "New Age" or the "End Times".The "Passover" is the Sun passing over into the Winter Solstice from the Fall
Equinox. This too was borrowed from the Hebrews who borrowed it from the
Egyptians.http//freedomdomain.com/relig.htm
- The Sun A little difficult to ignore, don't you think. If the sun, which is the
-
Peace all,
My intention and aim in this thread was
-
To show that Arnold's interpretation of 4913 and 5345-46 being all inclusive and not general and thus not allowing the exception of a literal virgin birth, is fallacious/incorrect by giving examples of cloning and parthenogenesis, and by showing that "kullu"/all/every is nowhere to be found in those verses.
-
To discuss the possibility of virgin birth, by showing the possibility of virgin birth through cloning and by reminding that God is capable of doing all things.
-
To show that the never changing God's sunnat/way per al-qur'aan is limited only to giving evil respite for some time and then completely destroying it, and not applicable to ALL natural laws.
This thread is not about sun gods, symbolic versus literal interpretations, or frequency of God's interventions and I would urge all the posters to kindly refrain from going off topic.
We should heed the message of 37 and try to focus primarily on the muhkamat verses of al-qur'aan. We should try to understand AND implement the basic core message of al-qur'aan which is to believe in God and the Last Day and to be righteous. We should not endlessly engage in debating/discussing/trying to figure out the true meanings of the mutashabihat verses, keeping in mind that only God knows the true meaning of those verses. 37 is proof that understanding the mutashabihat verses of al-qur'aan is not required/necessary for our guidance because we might never be able to figure out their true meaning.
It is possible that eventually The God might enlighten us with the true meaning of those verses, and until then we should be patient and affirm The God's signs, and realize that our knowledge could be incomplete/imperfect/faulty and not be arrogant that we know it all right now, thus rejecting The God's signs just because we cannot understand them. The premise of being able to understand ALL of The God's signs assumes human perfection and infallibility which are only The God's attributes.
With this spirit, I would like to withdraw from any further discussion on my part in this thread about mutashabihat verses. In the end, only The God guides.
Peace
-
-
peace
We should heed the message of 37 and try to focus primarily on the muhkamat verses of al-qur'aan. We should try to understand AND implement the basic core message of al-qur'aan which is to believe in God and the Last Day and to be righteous. We should not endlessly engage in debating/discussing/trying to figure out the true meanings of the mutashabihat verses, keeping in mind that only God knows the true meaning of those verses. 37 is proof that understanding the mutashabihat verses of al-qur'aan is not required/necessary for our guidance because we might never be able to figure out their true meaning.
BS.
Why did God include all those verses if we can't understand them? and how do we know which ones are understandable and which ones aren't? 37 honestly makes NO sense.
If 37 is talking about the quran, then Ayman explained it saying that it is talking about the "original" meaning of the verses, which only God can know, but we can get lessons from it and follow it, but we can't claim to know what God actually means.
If 37 is not talking about the quran, but the universe, then it would make more sense. There are clear signs in this universe, and there are not so clear signs. And we can't understand truly what is behind those signs. We might think something is bad when really it is good or something like that. And the perverse will use those unclear signs to spread evil.
If it doesn't mean any of the above, then it is complete and utter bullshit. Sorry for being so blunt. But that's just what I think. No offence is intended, and I respect everyone else's opinions.
peace -
salam all this is my first post, but I'd like to comment on this
5345-46
And He is the One who created the pair, male and female. From a seed(nutfatin) that is put forth.
I my opinion it seems it refer to the origin of the male and female not just creating male and female. And this is plausable because male and female came from mirco-organisms(nutfatin).When the quran refers to creating male and female humans from a womb
762
We have created the human from a seed that is mixed, We test him, so We made him hear and see.It says from a nutfatin that is mixed, clearly a reference to the egg and sperm joining, not just the sperm.
7537-39
Was he not a seed from sperm put forth? Then he was a clot, so he was created and developed. Then He made the two pairs, male and female.This is refering to when the fetus is designated as male or female. Notice that in 7537 while describing the nutfatin(small drop) in that particular verse it uses the word manayyin-literally meaning sperm-which is put forth, so implying that not all nutfatins are sperm. And Muhammed Asad puts it as "Was he not once a drop of sperm that had been spilt," he translated nutfatin as drop-not sperm, but manayyin as sperm.
So by saying that nutfatin means sperm is incorrect. Hence cloning and parthenogenesis do not contradict this verse.
These are just my thoughts, but I think it seems that verse 5345-46 is refering to the origin of the male and female.
-
Salam.
I think that cloning is not possible, i could be wrong, because humans cannot clone a soul and a soul is needed for a body. Maybe we could clone a body, you know, piece by piece, liver, heart, skin, stuff like that.
Time will show.
The God Almighty knows best.Peace.
-
if God created "all", why wouldn't he be able to make Virgin Mary pregnant? you believe it, or you don't. God is almighty as fare as I know. I think God will enjoy more to create a human than create an earthquake....and I believe God knows more about cloning than any of us bravo
sun
-
Peace,
Of course Allah can do it, this is not the discussion. It is about what falls under Allah's Laws as he clearly says He will not brake His Laws. These include the Laws of the Universe.
-
Peace all,
He clearly says He will not brake His Laws. These include the Laws of the Universe
The part of Arnold's quote in blue is indeed supported by al-qur'aan but the part of his quote in red is a CLEAR fabrication/invention/assumption/lie which is unsupported by al-qur'aan and akin to inventing a lie against God. If not then please provide evidences supporting the red statement from al-qur'aan. For new readers, my first post in this thread includes qur'aanic evidence of what I just stated. The ONLY law/way/sunnat of God that He promised never to change as per al-qur'aan, is giving evil some respite and then utterly destroying it eventually. We cannot assume from this that ALL laws of universe are included in that never changing sunnat of God.
-
Salam all.
If I cannot understand the quran, then the quran is a useless piece of horse manure.
And because you hardly understand Al-Quran, then Al-Quran is definitely a useless piece of horse manure, right? No one seems to have any objection.
(just my thoughts
Just your farts.
If it(37) doesn't mean any of the above, then it is complete and utter bulls***.
-
Salam Aleikum,
Dear Tanveer, when I have the time, I will come with my proof of why I believe it is such as I'm at the moment very busy. If you will disagree with my interpretation, that is fine as this is the right of every Muslim. But to call soemthing a lie is a big assumption until the proof is given. I suggest you should not speak in such harsh terms as you have only authority on your interpretation.
-
And because you hardly understand Al-Quran, then Al-Quran is definitely a useless piece of horse manure, right? No one seems to have any objection.
I didn't say "if I DON'T..." I said "If I CAN'T". If the quran is impossible to understand, then it is useless. There is no way around that fact, dude. Any book is only good if we can understand it.
peace! peace
-
Peace Alen,
I think that cloning is not possible, i could be wrong, because humans cannot clone a soul and a soul is needed for a body. Maybe we could clone a body, you know, piece by piece, liver, heart, skin, stuff like that.
Time will show.
The God Almighty knows best.Do you mean to say that animals do not have a soul ? because they have been cloned.
Humans have been already cloned but the scientists who cloned them are not openly admitting it and not openly coming out with this knowledge because of the fear of persecution, because cloning humans has been banned by USA and almost all its major allies.
Peace
-
Peace,
Yes, but cloning has nothing to do with this. Cloning is copying the DNA, and Jesus didn't look like Mary
-
Peace
Cloning destroys/annihilates your conjectural interpretation of 4913 and 5345-46. Also an XY male can be cloned from an XY female after repair of the mutation of SRY gene by genetic engineering.
-
Peace,
No it doesn't Tanveer, as the original DNA that is copied is always built up from a male and female. So even the genetically altered DNA you now mention is originally built up from a mixture of the two sexes. Don't be so quick with your 'destroy/annihilate'....In a few weeks inshAllah I will post something on what I believe are the Laws of Allah, then we can discuss it further.
-
Peace,
No it doesn't Tanveer, as the original DNA that is copied is always built up from a male and female. So even the genetically altered DNA you now mention is originally built up from a mixture of the two sexes. Don't be so quick with your 'destroy/annihilate'....In a few weeks inshAllah I will post something on what I believe are the Laws of Allah, then we can discuss it further.
You really need to be careful with what you state as factual/absolute statements. What about the FIRST DNA ? Even if both male and female DNA were originally simultaneously created, they could not themselves have arisen from a mixture of male and female DNA otherwise they won't be the first ever DNA. As usual, your "factual" statements seem to be based on your personal conjectures rather than actual facts. Just like when you take general statements like 4913 and 5345-46 and turn them into all-inclusive statements with no exceptions, even though "kullu" is nowhere to be found in them, and you take a specific never changing sunnat/way of God and turn it into all-inclusive laws of nature which is COMPLETELY unsupported by the context of the relevant verses and then base your "interpretations" on these kind of conjectures/inventions, it seriously affects your credibility.
Also what you might consider "natural laws" at this point in space and time may not be the actual absolute laws, which has been demonstrated in the past when Newtonian laws were shown to be inaccurate by the theory of relativity and quantum physics.
No offense, but I do have to be a bit critical when I see manipulations of words of God like that in the name of "interpretations" and stating of so called "facts" which are not based on the actual scientific facts, especially in an open forum where general readers can be mislead and deceived by such tactics.
Peace
-
Peace,
The first DNA of humans was also a mix of male and female, as it evolved out of lesser forms. As for 'kullu', indeed it is an important point I forgot. As for what we know about Laws. Newton wasn't wrong, his findings couldn't explain everything, what he discovered was mostly right. Same holds for Einstein. The Laws hasn't changed, we only know more and more backgrounds.
As for 'manipulations' and 'interpretations'. You defend the virgin-birth only based on an interpretation of a couple verses that have a wide wide interpretation-level. To believe in these interpretations you have to ignore a lot of logic and reason and hold on to many loose straws and just keep repeating 'Allah can do everything'. Yes He can. But is this also His tactic? I will refrain from this discussion now as we have discussed everything we can. I hope in a couple of weeks to post a new article which we can discuss then further. You are defending a miracle-belief that in my eyes goes against the Quran's message that tells us no one will believe through miracles. This is a left-over belief from the ancient people who ididn't understood the fixed and coherent workings of nature and thus believed anything could be done. This mythological psychology is what keeps holding back the Muslims and is the greatest 'mahjoor' on the Quran. You try to twist things as if you're defending the Truth, while your interpretation has many holes in them as I and others have shown. You don't defend the Truth, you defend your interpretation. Time will tell if it is the Truth or not.
-
And because you hardly understand Al-Quran, then Al-Quran is definitely a useless piece of horse manure, right? No one seems to have any objection.
I didn't say "if I DON'T..." I said "If I CAN'T".
Yes, and everyone CAN'T understand Al-Quran.(1746)
If the quran is impossible to understand, then it is useless.
Al-Quran is indeed impossible to understand for those who don't believe in the hereafter(1746). And you don't believe in the hereafter because it would be blind belief(according to you), right? So it is useless for you. And from now on, you will regard Al-Quran as horse s***, right? Or you already do?
There is no way around that fact, dude. Any book is only good if we can understand it.
Yes, there really is no way around it now. Everyone cannot understand Al-Quran(1746). So, in a forum that has been created for the study and understanding of Al-Quran, you will regard it as useless horse s***. Right?