REF: virgin birth, what about Cloning ?
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Peace maxq,
The offspring of parthenogenesis will be all female if two like chromosomes determine the female sex (such as systems where XX is female and XY is male), but male if the female sex is determined by unlike chromosomes (such as systems where WZ is female and ZZ is male)
What you said above proves that a male can arise from a female by parthenogenesis like a FEMALE honey bee laying an egg and then a MALE drone arising from it by parthenogenesis without fertilization by a sperm. In a human, it is theoretically possible for an XY male to arise from an XY female, or an XX male to arise from an XX female by parthenogenesis or cloning. Don't tell me now that there is no such thing as XX males in humans !!
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Peace Arnold Yasin, how do you view the verses 22-2 & 22-5? One verse talks about a new creation (normal full length pregnancy) while the other verse terminates that creation abruptly (on that day). Do you see it as one law overriding the other law? I believe your position is that one law cannot interfere with other laws. Please explain and correct me if my understanding of your position is wrong. Thanks.
222 ("Progressive Muslims"
The day you see it, every nursing mother will leave her suckling child, and every pregnant one will miscarry, and you will see the people drunk while they are not drunk, but the retribution of God is most severe.
225
O mankind, if you are in doubt as to the resurrection, then We have created you from dirt, then from semen, then from a clot, then from a lump of flesh developed and undeveloped so that We make it clear to you. And We allow it in the wombs as We wish to an appointed time, then We bring you out a child, then you reach your maturity, and of you are those who are taken, and of you are those who are sent to an old age where he will not be able to learn any new knowledge after what he already has. And you see the land still, but when We send down the water to it, it vibrates and grows, and it brings forth of every lovely pair. -
Peace Arnold,
A long post and still no answer/explanation of what I commented in my post.
Here is what you said in one of your posts
You are defending a miracle-belief that in my eyes goes against the Quran's message that tells us no one will believe through miracles.
This statement of yours is clearly saying that the message of al-qur'aan is that NO ONE will believe through miracles.
Here is the verse that you quoted to prove that (I will give the free-minds translation)
6111 And if We had sent down to them the Angels, and the dead spoke to them, and We had gathered before them everything, they still would not believe except if God wills. Alas, most of them are ignorant.
Firstly, this verse is talking ONLY about those who set up partners and not all mankind. Secondly it is saying that those who set up partners will not believe in miracles EXCEPT if God wills. What that means is that IN GENERAL the mushrikeen will not believe in miracles, but if God wills then some of them might. So there is a possibility that some of them might believe through miracles from God (by God's will) thus becoming believers from disbelievers.
How can you interpret from this that NO ONE will believe through miracles ?? Keep in mind that NO ONE means none among mankind including believers, and also none among the mushrikeen, whereas according to 6111 SOME mushrikeen might still believe through the miracles, by God's will.
Thus actually this verse proves that SOME mushrikeen might believe through miracles by God's will, which contradicts your interpretation. Please tell me what is it called in English language when one claims that a book is saying some specific thing whereas the book is saying something totally opposite/contradictory ? If I say that Arnold said so and so, whereas Arnold said something totally opposite, what will I be called ??
Now let us substitute "if God implements laws" instead of "God wills" in 6111
6111 And if We had sent down to them the Angels, and the dead spoke to them, and We had gathered before them everything, they still would not believe except if God implements laws. Alas, most of them are ignorant.
Still the meaning is the same that SOME mushrikeen will believe through miracles if God implements His laws and not that NO ONE will believe through miracles.
I'm open for any statement, but till now I haven't seen good justifications for the virginbirth belief. Also because even if it is a rare natural phenomena, WHERE IS THE MIRACLE THEN? Again it will only be part of Allah's Laws, and for me itn will not create more believe in Allah. The whole creation does this already. I know through Quantum Physics that many things are possible which we thought impossible. So also many things that were seen as miracles turn out be part of Allah's Design of the Universe. Again this will not create extra belief, as the whole Universe already has convinced me. But I believe the Universe is controlled by fixed laws, as also can be seen in Quantum Physics, where the behaviour of quanta, first seen as random, now is understood more to again follow certain limits, thus laws. Till nowthere is shown contradictions in this discussion by trying to defend the virginbirth as a possible natural law, and at the same time saying that there are no natural laws to be seen as fixed. Why trying to proof its scientifical possibility when you reject scientifical theories?
A miracle appears as "miracle" and supernatural only as long as we do not understand/discover the "laws" behind it. Once we understand/discover the laws behind it, the "miracle" is not a "miracle" any more. For example
1679 Do they not see the birds committed to fly in the atmosphere of the sky? None holds them up in the air except GOD. This should be (sufficient) proof for people who believe.
106 In the difference of day and night, and all that Allah has created in the heavens and the earth, there are signs for those who wish to walk aright.
The phenomenon described in these verses were also "miracles" until we understood/discovered the laws behind them. The technology we take for granted today will appear as "miracles" to someone from 500 years ago.
We do not understand or know ALL of God's laws, thus when He implements some of those unknown laws by His will, the results might appear miraculous to us, but that doesnt mean the results happened because some of the known laws were changed. It still demonstrates His intervention without changing His laws !!
It is postulated that according to string theory and quantum physics interdimensional travel is possible; thus it is possible that under the right conditions an object might go to another dimension and thus vanish temporarily, and a different object from another dimension might come into our dimension in its place, thus creating the miracle of one object changing to another.
What are the following verses if not intervention of God and "miracles" ? How do the "natural laws" explain them ?
2259 Or the one who passed through a town, where all its inhabitants had passed away. He said "How can God possibly resurrect this after its death?" So God put him to death for one hundred years, then He resurrected him. He said "How long have you stayed here?" He said "I have stayed here a day or part of a day." He said "No, you have stayed here for one hundred years! Look at your food and drink, they have not changed, but look at your donkey! And We will make you a sign for the people; and look at the bones how We grow them, then We cover them with flesh." So when it was clear to him what happened, he said "I now know that God is capable of all things!"
5110 God said "O Jesus son of Mary, recall My blessings upon you and your mother that I supported you with the Holy Spirit; you spoke to the people in the cradle and in old age; and I taught you the Scripture and the wisdom, and the Torah, and the Injeel; and you would create from clay the shape of a bird, then blow into it and it becomes a bird by My leave; and you heal the blind and the leaper by My leave; and you brought out the dead by My leave. And I have restrained the Children of Israel from you, that you came to them with proofs; but those who rejected amongst them said "This is clearly magic!""
I approach the Quran as a Book of Message. A miracle doesn't really contain a message for me, I know already that Allah can do everything as He has created the unbelievable possibility of life.
The "miracles" described in al-qur'aan RE-INFORCE one's belief in God. Why would God tell us He is capable of doing anything He wants and then repeat that over and over again in al-qur'aan when believers already believe that ?
220 2106 2109 2148 2259 326 329 3165 3189 4133 4149 517 519 540 595 5120 617 939 114 1670 1677 1845 226 2318 2445 2554 2920 3050 4139 4250 4821 572 596 607 641 6512 671
Arnold, are you better than Abraham that these "miracles" will not re-inforce/strengthen your belief ? And how will you explain the underlined portion based on the "natural laws" ?
2260 And Abraham said "My Lord, show me how you resurrect the dead." He said "Do you not already believe?" He said "I do, but it is so my heart can be relieved." He said "Choose four birds, then cut them, then place parts of the birds on each mountain, then call them to you; they will come racing towards you. And know that God is Noble, Wise."
Ok, give me ONE verse that says we will be guided through miracles.......There is nonethat says we will be guided through the supernatural, Allah guides us through reason. He always points out to His creation and its workings.
Please see 2260 above in which God guides Abraham through a miracle. If what you are saying is correct, then after God asked him "do you not already believe?", He would not have performed a miracle but would have just said "believe, because I say so".
You mean His creation and its workings are not miraculous ?? The verses you quoted as not being about miracles are about miracles
1679 Do they not see the birds committed to fly in the atmosphere of the sky? None holds them up in the air except GOD. This should be (sufficient) proof for people who believe.
106 In the difference of day and night, and all that Allah has created in the heavens and the earth, there are signs for those who wish to walk aright.
3191 Those who remember God while standing, and sitting, and on their sides, and they ponder in the creation of the heavens and the Earth "Our Lord you did not create this without purpose, be You glorified, spare us the retribution of the Fire!"
"All that God has created in the heavens and the earth" is a miracle. "Birds flying in the sky" is a miracle. Just because you think you understand some of the laws does not mean it is not a miracle any more. Since when have you understood/discovered the laws governing ALL that God has created in the heavens and the earth ?
2284 To God is what is in the heavens and in Earth, and if you declare what is in your souls or hide it, God will call you to account for it. He will forgive whom He wishes yasha, and punish whom He wishes yasha, and God is capable of all things.
Ok, does Allah punish only by His Will? Or through the Laws He has given us in the Quran? Of course Allah can do what He wants, but He promises certain things to us. Will a believer be punished by Allah, even though the believer has done everything Allah has decreed in the Quran?
yasha does not mean "laws" but means "wills" as a verb. God does not punish BY His will but whom He wills. Of course from the qur'anic context, He will punish whom He wills if they choose to disbelieve using their free will.
All laws are according to His will, but His will is not according to His laws. God's will is not the same as His laws. He can will to kill someone at a particular time, whereas He can will to keep another person alive (or save that person) at a particular time in the same exact situation, both without changing any laws of nature.
2884 Whoever brings forth a good deed, he will receive a better reward than it. And whoever brings forth a sin then the retribution for their sins will be to the extent of their deeds.
People were punished because they went against Allah's Law.
7180 And to God belong the beautiful names, so call Him by them; and ignore those who blaspheme in His names. They will be punished for what they used to do.
Blasphemy the name = will cause punishment=is a Law. Who Allah punishes is determined by the Laws. Thus His Laws are expressing His Will.
This is a promise. So Allah's Will is bound to His Promises. If I follow His Laws, He must reward me, as this is His Promise. So His Will follows His Laws and thus His Laws are His Will.
These verses talk about the reward or punishment in the afterlife and not about laws in this life. In this life one might do good and still lead a miserable tortured life or be raped, and one might commit horrible sins but still lead a pleasurable/enjoyable life. Eventually, however, in the afterlife each will get appropriate recompense.
3048 God Who sends the winds, so they raise clouds, and He spreads them in the sky as He wishes, then He turns them into joined pieces, then you see the rain drops come forth from their midst. Then when He makes them fall on whomever He wills of His servants, they rejoice!
We know that the workings of the weather is formed by laws. Clouds follow airdensity and are pushed by the factors that are determined by heat and cold air which cause the movement. Heat and cold are determined by the sun, and the sun has a fixed amount of heat outburst as the earth rotates, also every area on earth is only exposed to the earth determined by its position.
Is this movement of the clouds determined by randomn will or by laws that were determined before the creation of the Universe? Does Allah just push a cloud to where He wills? No, we can predict the weather as far as we can follow the factors involved. That weather-prediction is not accurate is because we cannot follow all factors that control the airflows. There are to many factors. But we can see a consistent reaction to factors. With heat, air will rise, it will not come down. When a area has less density of air, wind will be produced, as the less density will suck up air from denser area?s. There is consistency in these behaviour of nature.
Yes, the natural laws remain the same but where a hurricane comes, where a cloud forms, and where it rains is according to His will, without changing any natural laws. Thus God's will IS NOT SAME as natural laws. The laws are according to His will but His will is not according to the laws. For example, I can switch a light bulb on or off, the natural laws remain the same, but it is my will that determines if the light bulb is on or off.
4249 To God is the sovereignty of the heavens and the Earth. He creates whatever He wills. He bestows daughters to whomever He wills, and bestows sons to whomever He wills.
Just as we were discussing in this thread. A boy or a girl is determind by an Y or X chromosome. The spermcell that makes it first to the femalecell, is that random will or is that determined by Laws? Well why do you think you ejeculate 100.000's of spermcells? Because one will have the correct position and path to reach the femalecell first. It is determined by the conditions the spermcell is in, which determines if it is first or not. And which conditions are the ones that will make a spermcell be first, were already determined in the Laws of nature. Laws that determine what is needed to make a spermcell quick or slow.
The sex of the child is determined by God's will, and then the appropriate sperm is guided to the egg under the natural laws. Which sperm meets the egg is determined by His will (intervention). How does it happen that sometimes a defective weak sperm meets/fertilizes the egg causing a genetically deformed child despite presence of millions of stronger, healthier sperms in the ejaculate ? According to your defective understanding, only healthier stronger sperms should be able to make it to the egg. This fact alone shows that you do not understand the concept of God's will. How is it that a certain couple cannot have a child even though both of them are perfectly healthy and fertile, no matter how hard they try and another couple keep having children after children even when they use contraceptives ?
313 There was a sign for you in the two groups that met. One was fighting in the cause of God, and the other was rejecting. They thus saw them as twice their number with their eyes. And God supports with His victory whom He wills. In this is a lesson for those with vision.
Is victory attained through random will or through fixed Laws? It is of course the factors that comply to the Laws that will gain the victory. This is why Allah says
860 And prepare for them all that you can of might, and from the steeds of war, that you may instil fear with it towards God's enemy and your enemy, and others beside them whom you do not know but God knows them. And whatever you spend in the cause of God will be returned to you, and you will not be wronged.
It is through good preparation and equipment and good men that decide a war's outcome. This is Allah's Will that is shown through His Laws. A true believer will always try to follow Allah's Laws. Allah promises us victory, but only when we follow His Laws that are in the Quran.
Sometimes a handful of people overpower an army much bigger in size even when they have inferior weapons and strength. That is God's will (by God putting his fear in the opposing armies heart) even though "natural" laws would dictate otherwise.
So what is Allah's Will? Is it random tampering with the creation? I believe not, Allah says we must look at the creation, investigate it. Why investigate it if it follows random processes? No, we must investigate them as understanding these laws and following them is following Allah's Will. It is the Laws that He has determined when creating the Universe. All must folow these Laws. When they follow these Laws, they are following Allah's Will. When we follow the Quran, we are following Allah's Will. Now, you will understand why I translate yasha with 'Laws' or 'Due Measure', as indeed 'yasha' means Will, but the Will of Allah are expressed in His Laws of the Universe.
I have already shown that "yasha" cannot be translated as "laws" but only as "will". Universe follows fixed laws but God can and does tamper and intervene in the universe, not randomly but in accordance with His attributes, His promise, and His will.
Peace
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What you said above proves that a male can arise from a female by parthenogenesis like a FEMALE honey bee laying an egg and then a MALE drone arising from it by parthenogenesis without fertilization by a sperm. In a human, it is theoretically possible for an XY male to arise from an XY female, or an XX male to arise from an XX female by parthenogenesis or cloning. Don't tell me now that there is no such thing as XX males in humans !!
Well, what can I say... lol...
Why are you bent on disrespecting a prophet just to propoagate your theory? Do you know what you are proposing? You mean Jesus was "deficient" somehow??
I for sure will not participate further in this thread. -
Peace,
Well, what can I say... lol...
Why are you bent on disrespecting a prophet just to propoagate your theory? Do you know what you are proposing? You mean Jesus was "deficient" somehow??
I for sure will not participate further in this thread.You don't even bother to read all my posts and then hurl accusations at me and put words in my mouth. I should've known this tendency of yours when you quoted a lot of scientifically inaccurate/incorrect things in your posts as facts without doing diligent research beforehand. It just destroys your credibility. Read my posts addressed to Tay and jonny_k above in addition to others and then compare it to what you fabricated/invented about me. When I expose your scientific ignorance about something this is how you respond ? Thank you for showing your true colors.
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Peace phoenix,
Tanveer still believes that no one can understand the quran.
You owe me an apology here for misquoting me. Where did I say that ?
What I said was that the muhkamat verses of qur'aan are very clear and can be understood by everyone but only God knows the true meaning of the mutashabihat verses so we should not keep speculating on their meaning or interpretation if we cannot fully understand them as per 37. However, I believe in all of qur'aan being from God even when I cannot understand portions of it per 37. When did I say no one can understand the quran (which means the quran as a whole) ?
I didn't expect this kind of carelessness from you. Destroys your credibility about your "logical" approach. A person who uses reason, mind and logic cannot be careless like this.
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Peace guest, Arnold, all,
Peace Tanveer, I would like to inform you of some contradictory statement you made in your post of ?Reply #83 on December 22, 2006, 050343 AM?. I hope you will take these criticisms in a positive manner.
- You said ?My intention and aim in this thread was ? ?
Your intention, any special engagement rules for conducting the debate, arbitration rules, special conditions, etc. should be in the first post and not the end post
- You said ?We should heed the message of 37 and try to focus primarily on the muhkamat verses of al-qur'aan.?
Yet you are the one who started (continued) this thread on non-muhkamat verse. Why didn?t you heed to 37 prior to start of the debate
- You said ?We should not endlessly engage in debating/discussing/trying to figure out the true meanings of the mutashabihat verses .. ...?
Since you are the originator of the post it becomes your responsibility to end the debate properly. The way you came across is like you had enough of it and therefore you are stopping it or that you are not going to devote any more time to it. I think you are misusing the verse 37 to end the debate prematurely. That not right.
Thank you guest for your expose (pronounced ek-spoh-zey). Shows how human/imperfect I am with all those contradictions ! You guys can continue debating but I believe I have accomplished what I wanted to in this thread and don't have much left to add.
Brother Arnold, I apologize if you took something I said out of my ignorance as a personal attack. I respect you as a person and a brother and am grateful for some of your insights but after all we are all humans and can make mistakes and I agree to disagree with some of your interpretations. May God guide us all to the truth and the straight path.
Peace
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Peace,
Dear Tanveer, I'm gratefull to Allah you understand my post.
So let's get back to the subject. If a miracle is not supernatural, but just a misunderstood or not discovered Law of Nature. Then it is equal to all other Laws of Nature as gravity. So it contains no extra message then in my eyes. It is as much a sign as everything else in the creation. So let's move on.
To understand 6111, you must understand how Allah's Will is expressed in the Creation. Which is through His Laws. So the verse is in my eyes to be understood as that the mushrikeen will would only believe in miracles/signs if the Laws that express Allah's Will in the Universe would allow it. Yasha means 'will/wish', I never questioned that, it is about how this Will is expressed in the Universe. There is no verse in the Quran by my knowledge that says we will belief more through the Supernatural. Only through objective observation of the Universe and in trying to understand it.
I think we agree that it all will follow Allah's Laws. If you approach the verses as miracles or as mistranslated & misunderstood metaphors, we both agree that all signs of Allah will follow His Laws.
The Miracle is the Laws of the Universe itself. That is the proof of Allah's Power and Wisdom.
As for 2259, it is directly connected with the birds of Abraham.
2260 And when Abraham said "My Rabb, show me how you revive the dead." He said "Did you not believe?" he said "Yes certainly, and but for my heart and mind to be secure." He said "So take four from the birds, so take them close to you, then put on every mountain from them a portion, then call them , they come to you fast , and know that God is glorious, mighty, powerful and dignified, wise and judicious."
Here Abraham asks how the dead are raised. But which dead? In the Quran you have three sorts of dead
- Real bodily dead people who will be revived in the Hereafter.
- People who are dead of understanding and faith, and thus will not grow in
Iman, faith, so they can attain Paradise on earth and in the Hereafter. - Nations which are not powerful and mostly conquered and oppressed and
make no progress for their society to develop.
When we look at verses 2258 where a discussion is going on between Abraham and man, probably a ruler. Abraham says that only Allah really gives life and death, hajat and maut. These two words can be applied to humans, plants as well as nations. In 2259 we see a story on a person that walks through a city which is called dead and he wonders how God can revive it, thus making it alive with people again and make it flourish. God gives a metaphor that it is like any other resurrection. A revival of nation must, like the resurrection, follow the Divine Laws of Nature. In line with the previous verses, 2260 talks about the revival of nations as Abraham is promised a might nation and offspring. Most people read into it that Abraham cut up the birds and then call them, but the sentence preceding it tells us that he must bring the birds close to him, in other words, train and tame them, so they will respond to his call. So why train them and then cut them up? This is illogical. It is much simpler, the group was split up, the birds were not cut up, and put on every mountain. The birds were called and responded. In the same way will God train us through Revelation, the Quran, so we will respond to His call and be close to Him. And thus I believe verse 2259 falls under 37 and should not be taken literally.
And then you have this very misunderstood verse
5110 God said "O Jesus son of Mary, recall My blessings upon you and your mother that I supported you with the Holy Spirit; you spoke to the people in the cradle and in old age; and I taught you the Scripture and the wisdom, and the Torah, and the Injeel; and you would create from clay the shape of a bird, then blow into it and it becomes a bird by My leave; and you heal the blind and the leaper by My leave; and you brought out the dead by My leave. And I have restrained the Children of Israel from you, that you came to them with proofs; but those who rejected amongst them said "This is clearly magic!""The healings of Jesus are meant metaphorically. Like the words used in 349, the word is abras, one suffering from lukoderma, a disease that discolours the skin, and not judham, leprosy. Probably under evangelical influences did it got confused with leprosy. Metaphorically, however, it means, to have ones misfortune added to another. Ibn Faris says that al-biras means, barren portions of the desert, whence the metaphorical meaning of misfortune, so Jesus cured misfortunes by teaching people the truth. The Quran compares moral crimes to diseases, and calls those guilty of them, deaf, dumb and blind, as in 218 and diseased of the heart in 210 and even dead as in 2780, that is why the scripture, which is the Truth, is called a healing in 4144. It is again, shown that people distort the metaphorical meanings, and don't take the Quran as its guide how the read things. That Jesus his healings were taken literally is of course through evangelical influences in the Muslim world. It is part of the global collective thinking of all Muslims, including those follow the Quran alone. Multiple meanings of words are neglected and miracle-belief is prefered over more logical meanings of verses.
Tair has multiple meanings besides to bird, it also means omen as in 7131, 2747, 3619, actions and register of deeds as in 1713, it is also applied to non-winged beings, tayyar means fleet-flooted horse, and at-tairan is metaphorically used for marching to jihad. It also means destiny or fortune, as in this verse, as when birds were seen as messengers of the gods in ancient times. Also when birds as vultures were seen, people knew somebody is meeting or has met their fate, their doom. This is how meanings as destiny were also applied to Tair. Jesus people were in a deplorable state 3112, and he raised them up out of that dust/low state.
5110 When Allah will say, ?O Jesus, son of Mary! Recall My blessings upon you and your mother. I strengthened you with Sacred Revelation, enabled you to speak eloquently to the people while still in childhood, and also at a later age (345). I gave you revelation and wisdom including the Torah and the Gospel. Recall when you formed the state of your people's destiny and that you would raise them from dust up into the heights of glory by My leave (7176). You made people see the Truth otherwise given to blind following by My leave. You healed the wounds of inequity on people by My leave, and you gave a new meaning to life to those who were otherwise no better than dead by My leave (348, 3111, 6123). Recall, how I prevented the Children of Israel from harming you when you came to them with all evidence of the truth (4157). And those who were bent upon denying the truth said, ?This is nothing but clear deception.?
I rather first try to look for more logical explanations, before I go for the not-understood Laws of nature/miracle explanation. I have written a book on almost all the verses in the Quran that are seen as miracles. See the PDF attached to at the bottom of this post. It is still a work in progress.
It doesn't matter if we disagree on matters, but you will see I have good reasons why I believe what I believe as I have researched all the possibilities I could research till now. And I have found that there are no miracles in the Quran. Only mis-chosen Arabic meanings or misunderstood metaphors. This is my understanding, and I will always be open minded. If you have read my articles, you will see I have studied and follow Quantum Physics closely. But Quantum Field and other knowledge, doesn't immediately support belief in miracles, as I myself also don't see the Message in it. I have tried to understand the verses from a point of view that the meaning carry a message to me, and the more reasonable approach indeed gives me beautifull messages.
If you want to discuss my findings in my PDF, please first PM me, we will start a new thread together.
Peace my brother.
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Dear bro Tanveer... The premise, as suggested by the topic itself and by your persistance, was that your wanted to rationalize your claim, first through parthenogenesis - which is not obeseved in mammals (since it would be a chain reaction and VERY observable if it happened), second that mammilian parthenogenesis would result in birth of female parthenogens - which you claimed may also have a chance of having XX type male birth (true), to which I tried to point out that not only are XX type males mostly sterile, but are also abnormal... Your premise and intention seems clear even if you were not explicit in your statement.
If I misunderstood you somehow, I apologize. But I only went by what you posted bro...
BTW, what do you know about me and my "true colours"?
Peace,
You don't even bother to read all my posts and then hurl accusations at me and put words in my mouth. I should've known this tendency of yours when you quoted a lot of scientifically inaccurate/incorrect things in your posts as facts without doing diligent research beforehand. It just destroys your credibility. Read my posts addressed to Tay and jonny_k above in addition to others and then compare it to what you fabricated/invented about me. When I expose your scientific ignorance about something this is how you respond ? Thank you for showing your true colors.
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Peace "tanveer",
It is also possible to clone an XY MALE from an XY FEMALE (e.g. Swyer's syndrome) through first repair of the SRY mutation in a somatic cell (possible by gene splicing techniques) and then cloning that repaired somatic cell. Again I am not saying that this is EXACTLY how Jesus was created, but that it is scientifically possible to clone a physiological male from a physiological female. No human can, however, replicate the superior "be" technology of God !!
JK- I always appreciate the scientific approach. This is very interesting but what is an "xy" woman capable of conceiving? In other words does such a female have all the necessry organs required for conception? If yes then that would be amazing. But the problem remains why is GOD comparing Jesus with Adam if the latter also had parents? Or wait, maybe the definition is the problem. Adam didnt have human parents, say he came, and this is most probable according to science, as a result of a final transition from apelike to man, thus GOD at this stage created a new creature. From that time till now there has been no further macro evolution in the human beings except Jesus. Now in case of Jesus GOD could mean yet another transition. jesus was thus indeed a unique human, who was born without normal human parents just as adam. Thus UNIQUE BIRTH could be the similarity of both. What do u guys say abt tht? GOD Bless!
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Peace Tanveer,
No this debate is not fruitless or waste of time. For details please see my reply to Khizar above and many other posts in which I have been repeating that same thing. The discussion is not to exactly explain Jesus's birth but to disprove some of Arnold's misinterpretations of some qur'aanic verses such as 4913 and 5345-46, thereby proving that Jesus's virgin birth does not contradict qur'aan, and is POSSIBLE WITHOUT CONTRADICTING QUR'AAN.
Got it. I guess those weren't the fruits I was looking for
Arnold rejects Jesus's virgin birth on the basis of those misinterpretations whereby he tries to prove that because virgin birth in humans is impossible (cloning proves otherwise), and that a pair always arises from a sperm (cloning and parthenogenesis proves otherwise), so Jesus's virgin birth is impossible as it would contradict qur'aan (based on his misinterpretations), and hence misinterprets Mary's reaction to the good news based on these other misinterpretations which I have disproven by various scientific facts.
Thanks for the explanation. Though I can't speak for Arnold, based on his posts thus far, I don't think his basis is hinged solely on the contradiction. Anyway, as for me, my beef is with the sporadic intervention, the historical coincidence, and the comparison to Adam. The science jargon is out of my league and doesn't really get to the heart of the matter imo.
Peace,
Tay -
Peace Johnny,
Thus UNIQUE BIRTH could be the similarity of both. What do u guys say abt tht?
I say the similarity is already explained in 359...
The example of Jesus with God is similar to that of Adam; He created him from dust, then He said to him "Be" and he was.You'll notice the qur'an also clearly spells out that all humans were created this way, and that all life comes from water. So, was the Isa-dust different than our dust? I don't believe so. The dust, imo, has some connection to the primordial soup theory - followed by the "be" command (aka lightning) which originated biological life on earth.
Peace,
Tay -
Peace bro "tay",
Peace Johnny,
I say the similarity is already explained in 359...
The example of Jesus with God is similar to that of Adam; He created him from dust, then He said to him "Be" and he was.You'll notice the qur'an also clearly spells out that all humans were created this way, and that all life comes from water. So, was the Isa-dust different than our dust? I don't believe so. The dust, imo, has some connection to the primordial soup theory - followed by the "be" command (aka lightning) which originated biological life on earth.
Peace,
TayJK- Oh and tht reminds me of another beautiful thing James Randi said "We are all made of star dust" since there it came from oriinally. Marvellous aint it? Knowing that and seeing we are still fighting with one another coz of baseless religiosity and quackery greatly disturns me. So ofcourse the Isa dust aint different from ours just like the Adam dust aint different from us. But Adam and Isa are different from us in a way they resulted as a result of a transition. Punctuated equillibrium also seems to make sense btw. The last apelike creatures had in their genes the code now ready to give birth to a new creature which was Adam and his mate. GOD Bless!
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Peace Johnny,
What i mean is tht Adam and Isa were created differently than we.
The question still stands...what makes you think they were created different when the qur'an has them created from dust and "be" like the rest of us?
They were the result of a transition, we aint.
Personally, my view is that "adam" represents the first generation of evolved humans. Certainly, that's a transition, but still not different than us. We are, "bani adam", still transitional, as our facial hair gets thinner and thinner, and our canine teeth round out.
But how do you define the transition of Isa? According to the qur'an, he was just a human messenger who had to eat food like the rest of us.
Peace,
Tay -
Peace bro "tay",
Peace Johnny,
The question still stands...what makes you think they were created different when the qur'an has them created from dust and "be" like the rest of us?
JK- I think the focus is more on the word be here than dust. "be" here i believe is a change in formation i.e. trnasition. Both Adam and Isa thus were born in a different way than us BUT are yet simialr human beings. As to why GOD mentions the dust must also have a reason i admit n i believe its a chemical in that that was changed/manipulated by the laws said by GOD well in the beginning and ofcourse He continues to control everything at every instant.
Personally, my view is that "adam" represents the first generation of evolved humans. Certainly, that's a transition, but still not different than us. We are, "bani adam", still transitional, as our facial hair gets thinner and thinner, and our canine teeth round out.
JK- The canine teeth is a minor change which i wouldnt consider as a transition. As for Adam representing more than one human thts not necessary and i believe punctuated equillibrium makes more sense. This is also why we dont find a continuity of transitional fossils but distinct ones which can now taking the microbiological patterns into account, be shown as distinct stages of creation.
But how do you define the transition of Isa? According to the qur'an, he was just a human messenger who had to eat food like the rest of us.
Peace,
TayJK- As i mentioned above his birth was different, otherwise hes a human like us and adam. GOD Bless!
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Peace maxq,
Dear bro Tanveer... The premise, as suggested by the topic itself and by your persistance, was that your wanted to rationalize your claim, first through parthenogenesis - which is not obeseved in mammals (since it would be a chain reaction and VERY observable if it happened), second that mammilian parthenogenesis would result in birth of female parthenogens - which you claimed may also have a chance of having XX type male birth (true), to which I tried to point out that not only are XX type males mostly sterile, but are also abnormal... Your premise and intention seems clear even if you were not explicit in your statement.
If I misunderstood you somehow, I apologize. But I only went by what you posted bro...
The topic is virgin birth and cloning, not virgin birth OF JESUS. Looks like you still haven't read my posts. So I will have to quote myself and do your work for you
My intention and aim in this thread was
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To show that Arnold's interpretation of 4913 and 5345-46 being all inclusive and not general and thus not allowing the exception of a literal virgin birth, is fallacious/incorrect by giving examples of cloning and parthenogenesis, and by showing that "kullu"/all/every is nowhere to be found in those verses.
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To discuss the possibility of virgin birth, by showing the possibility of virgin birth through cloning and by reminding that God is capable of doing all things.
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To show that the never changing God's sunnat/way per al-qur'aan is limited only to giving evil respite for some time and then completely destroying it, and not applicable to ALL natural laws.
This thread is not about sun gods, symbolic versus literal interpretations, or frequency of God's interventions and I would urge all the posters to kindly refrain from going off topic.
We should heed the message of 37 and try to focus primarily on the muhkamat verses of al-qur'aan. We should try to understand AND implement the basic core message of al-qur'aan which is to believe in God and the Last Day and to be righteous. We should not endlessly engage in debating/discussing/trying to figure out the true meanings of the mutashabihat verses, keeping in mind that only God knows the true meaning of those verses. 37 is proof that understanding the mutashabihat verses of al-qur'aan is not required/necessary for our guidance because we might never be able to figure out their true meaning.
It is possible that eventually The God might enlighten us with the true meaning of those verses, and until then we should be patient and affirm The God's signs, and realize that our knowledge could be incomplete/imperfect/faulty and not be arrogant that we know it all right now, thus rejecting The God's signs just because we cannot understand them. The premise of being able to understand ALL of The God's signs assumes human perfection and infallibility which are only The God's attributes.
I gave the exampe of cloning and parthenogenesis to disprove Arnold's assertions that virgin birth in general is impossible (due to his misinterpretation of 4913), and that pairs result only from sperms (due to his misinterpretation of "nutfatin" in 5345-46) and not to show that it exactly explains Jesus's birth (Tay, please note, cuz you have failed to note this in my past posts). That, however, is still possible by the cloning of an XY male out of an XY female, for example, Swyer's syndrome, by first repairing the SRY mutation in a certain somatic cell and then cloning it. That is not exactly how Jesus was created, but it just shows that it is humanly possible. It is impossible for humans to replicate the superior "be" technology of God
I gave the example of cloning not to prove that Jesus's birth was exactly like that but to disprove Arnold's misinterpretation of virgin birth IN GENERAL of being impossible in humans (cloning proves virgin birth is possible), and to disprove his misinterpretation that a pair is created ONLY by a sperm (cloning can create male or female without a sperm).
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Peace Arnold,
Yasha cannot mean laws, it means will. God's will does not equate laws. His laws are according to His will but His will is not according to His laws. His laws are subservient to His will.
For example using my will I can switch a light bulb on or off using the same laws with two different outcomes. Will leads to outcomes through laws and thus will is separate from laws.
Abraham splitting four birds and putting them in four corners and then calling them is nothing extraordinary. The wording of 2260 clearly suggests a miracle of cutting the bird because of the question "My Lord, show me how you resurrect the dead" thus God's response indicates the actual cutting up of one bird thereby killing it and then resurrecting it. Sorry bro, your interpretation doesn't fly.
Your rendition of 5110 and 2259 has similar logical flaws and your translation doesn't follow the grammar and the arabic sentence structure of the verse.
I guess I will have to agree to disagree with your interpretations.
Peace