REF: virgin birth, what about Cloning ?
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Peace maxq, all,
Nice posts!
Unless you want to claim that Jesus was a woman, please stop asserting parthenogenesis as a means of his birth!
That's the problem(unanswered)...the means of his birth. It would be much simpler, and really end the debate, if people would just admit that what they believe is that God created Isa by sheer will, having nothing to do with science. If one wants to believe that God said "be" and Marium became instantly pregnant, there's really not much to argue. But to bring cloning/genetics into the picture while trying to maintain this (dare I say) supernatural event does nothing to draw the argument to a close. How did it happen? Perhaps Marium was flown to the skylab where her DNA was extracted and the cloning procedure began. Or maybe everyone in her lineage was carrying the dormant Isa-clone-DNA that coincidentally came to life when her womb was primed and ready. Or some unknown secret of nature that we'll come to understand in 1000 years. All explanation is conjecture at this point and that's why it's being left alone, so as not to weaken the stance of those calling others out on conjecture.
Peace,
Tay -
Peace all,
9614 Does he not know that Allah sees to it that His Laws are enforced without exception?
This is a mistranslation of this verse. The actual arabic does not say this. The literal translation of this verse is as follows
9614 Does he not know with that God sees/understands?
Maxq, stop inventing lies against God and have some fear of God.
No deviation... no change... this not only applies to the law itself, but is a promise from God that he will not intervene "unnaturally" He has his means/laws/mechanism by which he governs the universe. Not by arbitrary "thunderbolts".
The verse 3543 does not refer to ALL natural laws but only to the never changing law of God giving respite to evil for sometimes and then destroying it, which is clear from the verse and the context. Also, the word "kullu" is nowhere to be found in this verse so how did God's sunnat/way become ALL ways ? Good try maxq but this conjectural misinterpretation won't fly
By the way, maxq's statements about parthenogenesis, cloning and genetics show that he is also not educated about this subject, and he should get his facts straight before making inaccurate statements and then misleading others. It also shows that he has not read all my posts in which I have given examples of various possibilities ad nauseum and also explained about XY females.
I gave the exampe of cloning and parthenogenesis to disprove Arnold's assertions that virgin birth in general is impossible (due to his misinterpretation of 4913), and that pairs result only from sperms (due to his misinterpretation of "nutfatin" in 5345-46) and not to show that it exactly explains Jesus's birth (Tay, please note, cuz you have failed to note this in my past posts). That, however, is still possible by the cloning of an XY male out of an XY female, for example, Swyer's syndrome, by first repairing the SRY mutation in a certain somatic cell and then cloning it. That is not exactly how Jesus was created, but it just shows that it is humanly possible. It is impossible for humans to replicate the superior "be" technology of God
Parthenogenesis is virgin birth because offsprings are produced from a single parent without fertilization from a sperm. Parthenogenesis itself is derived from greek words meaning virgin birth. There are some species which are capable of BOTH sexual reproduction and parthenogenesis (e.g. honey bees, ants, komodo dragons)
Parthenogenesis is not an EXACT replication of DNA (male drones arising from unfertilized eggs of honey bees, and also other examples of off springs being different from the parent). Even cloning is not EXACT replication of DNA because of mitochondrial origin of some DNA from the recipient cell's mitochondria
"Dolly or any other animal created using nuclear transfer technology is not truly an identical clone of the donor animal. Only the clone's chromosomal or nuclear DNA is the same as the donor. Some of the clone's genetic materials come from the mitochondria in the cytoplasm of the enucleated egg. Mitochondria, which are organelles that serve as power sources to the cell, contain their own short segments of DNA. Acquired mutations in mitochondrial DNA are believed to play an important role in the aging process."
Above from
http//www.ornl.gov/sci/techresources/Human_Genome/elsi/cloning.shtml
Also see
http//www.nature.com/ng/journal/v23/n1/full/ng0999_90.html
Also Parthenogenesis does not always result in females (honey bees, komodo dragons etc.)
Reference
http//maarec.cas.psu.edu/bkCD/HBBiology/breeding_genetics.htm
Peace
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Peace maxq, you said ?No deviation... no change... this not only applies to the law itself, but is a promise from God that he will not intervene "unnaturally" He has his means/laws/mechanism by which he governs the universe. Not by arbitrary "thunderbolts".?
You need to tell us what the ?means/laws/mechanism? are before discussing the no deviation/no change to it. Have you a unified model that works in this situation? How did you come to this model and who validated the model? Have you observed all the laws/phenomenon of nature? Does your model lead to the truth about reality?
In order to have meaningful debate one must established these facts first. Please provide these facts and then we will either disprove your model or accept it. Thank you.
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You need to tell us what the means/laws/mechanism are before discussing the no deviation/no change to it. Have you a unified model that works in this situation? How did you come to this model and who validated the model? Have you observed all the laws/phenomenon of nature? Does your model lead to the truth about reality?
It's a focused way of looking at it and might spawn more food for thought.
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Peace Tanveer,
...not to show that it exactly explains Jesus's birth
Duly noted...which begs the question, if cloning does not explain Isa's birth, isn't this thread a waste of time? No offense bro. By now I hope you can see that I do respect you and your knowledge on the subject. But I'm a bottom-line kind of person and if the bottom line is still clouded in mystery, then all this scientific debate is fruitless.
If Isa's virgin-birth cannot be explained by science, then it must be considered unscientific and/or supernatural.
This is what I've been trying to convey all along. There's nothing wrong with this view. It is what it is.Peace,
Tay -
Also
Parthenogenesis does not always result in females (honey bees, komodo dragons etc.)Dear Tanveer,
The offspring of parthenogenesis will be all female if two like chromosomes determine the female sex (such as systems where XX is female and XY is male), but male if the female sex is determined by unlike chromosomes (such as systems where WZ is female and ZZ is male)
We are talking about XY for male and XX for female humans... this is the genome/design of the human and if you suggest anything else, that is NOT human. Please have some fear of God yourself. Respect his design...
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Duly noted...which begs the question, if cloning does not explain Isa's birth, isn't this thread a waste of time? No offense bro. By now I hope you can see that I do respect you and your knowledge on the subject. But I'm a bottom-line kind of person and if the bottom line is still clouded in mystery, then all this scientific debate is fruitless.
Splendid reply Tay. I completely agree. -
Yes, and everyone CAN'T understand Al-Quran.(1746)
OK, then it is useless. That's just common sense, isn't it?
Only useless? Or useless horse shit?
Al-Quran is indeed impossible to understand for those who don't believe in the hereafter(1746). And you don't believe in the hereafter because it would be blind belief(according to you), right? So it is useless for you. And from now on, you will regard Al-Quran as horse s***, right? Or you already do?
wait...is it impossible to understand for everyone? or just people like me?
Only for people like you. You regard it as horse shit. I don't.
Yes, there really is no way around it now. Everyone cannot understand Al-Quran(1746). So, in a forum that has been created for the study and understanding of Al-Quran, you will regard it as useless horse s***. Right?
why the heck do we even have a forum for understanding the quran if we cannot understand it!!?
YOU can't understand it. So why are you even on the forum?!! To tell the forum members that the book they are studying is useless horse shit?!!
why do you even read the quran if you cannot understand it?
Why can't I understand it?
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OK. I take back the "useless" comment. To you, at least.
Tanveer still believes that no one can understand the quran.My original point (to tanveer) was that if no one can understand a book, it is useless. Obviously not everyone can understand everything.
sorry! -
Peace,
Saying Newton wasn't wrong and then saying he was mostly right are contradictory statements. Even if he was wrong in one thing he was wrong about that thing. You should have said he wasn't completely wrong rather than saying he wasn't wrong.
Dear Tanveer, for the last weeks I have tried to discuss with you. But in the end the only thing that is thrown is 'liar' and 'manipulator'. What I will explain now is not a personal attack, it is a personal reflection. I don't consider this behaviour as a 'sin' or something to be embarrased about. I believe everyone has shown this behaviour at least one's in their life. So please read it with a clear mind, and don't see it as personal attack. Your reaction on this post will show eventualy if you have understood it or not. I have tried to avoid personal comments as much a spossible, but now a limit has been reached. The 'attack behaviour which is used now, as instead of asking what a person is saying, immediately he is condemned to liar or manipulator, I have seen this behaviour many times before, I myself had to some extent this behaviour in the past. Instead of respecting somebodies view, or trying to show the person with friendly terms and with patience why he is wrong. The person is attacked and condemned. It is done with emotion and frustration. This shows it is not Allah's Truth that is on the line, but your truth.
This is done under the pretence of 'defending Islam' and 'the correct interpretation'. But this is a complete self-illusion. This is done mostly out of 2 things fear and/or ego. With AB it is mostly because of ego, with you it is done most probably out of fear. Fear of being wrong, fear of not knowing how to base one's belief when it must undergo such rapid changes. Since it is not ready for change or not accepting things can be different, it will defend his point of view with arrogance and aggression. It will take on the mask of 'the defender of Truth', to fool itself as its conciousness's need to be fooled to hang to such ideas. What I meant here is not saying my ideas are right and yours are wrong. What I'm now explaining is the psychology behind the attitude that is shown all around this forum and in this thread. If you are really so confident about your believes, why then is so much emotion to be seen in your posts? Please reflect on this.
To fool one'self that you are the 'truthcrusader' you need an enemy. Whatever this person says will be completely turned around and totaly interpretated in the most extreme ways. Many 'proofs' will be shown and especially the person will be condemned as liar and as manipulator and so on. Sides must be created instead of a grey middle. This typical crusader behaviour is very destructive for one's progress into knowledge. It takes away one's objectiveness and peacefull behaviour.
That you and some others have taken up this behaviour is very clear for many who are following this thread. For example, you said Newton was wrong, I said he wasn't. And later I clarify more that Newton wasn't totaly wrong, as this was also not what I meant. Also you cannot say he was totaly wrong as his findings on pendles and mechanic laws of energy movement are still used today and will be ever. But my 'Newton wasn't wrong' of course immediately applies I mean Newton was NEVER wrong, why? Because you read everything I say with a crusadermind. I'm an enemy of your belief and thus even the smallest statement will be pulled out to the extend.
I'm open for any statement, but till now I haven't seen good justifications for the virginbirth belief. Also because even if it is a rare natural phenomena, WHERE IS THE MIRACLE THEN? Again it will only be part of Allah's Laws, and for me itn will not create more believe in Allah. The whole creation does this already. I know through Quantum Physics that many things are possible which we thought impossible. So also many things that were seen as miracles turn out be part of Allah's Design of the Universe. Again this will not create extra belief, as the whole Universe already has convinced me. But I believe the Universe is controlled by fixed laws, as also can be seen in Quantum Physics, where the behaviour of quanta, first seen as random, now is understood more to again follow certain limits, thus laws. Till nowthere is shown contradictions in this discussion by trying to defend the virginbirth as a possible natural law, and at the same time saying that there are no natural laws to be seen as fixed. Why trying to proof its scientifical possibility when you reject scientifical theories?
I approach the Quran as a Book of Message. A miracle doesn't really contain a message for me, I know already that Allah can do everything as He has created the unbelievable possibility of life. That I exist, that I'm allowed to exist. That the laws of the universe are so precise. So I approach the Quran as a book with a message that convinces, that every verse has a purpose in my life. The story of Mary connects completely with the Dead Sea Scrolls information. This is in my eyes very intruiging, as it unveils very important history. That you approach all history as 'stories of satan' is your approach and not mine. I have my reasons and you have yours. I have studied Biochemistry and study History and Religion for years now, and I try to approach History as scientific as possible using the guidelines of the Quran. To me the Quran is a Guide to the past, present and future. I don't believe it rejects Historical research, it encourages it by also showing the right use and approach. People know I reject tradition as such, so I only accept as highly possible when it has multiple factors supporting it.
This I also do with my interpretation of the story of Mary in the Quran. You now try to say that it is grammatically impossible to interpretate Mary's word not as a virginbirth? Well this is a forcing a view on it if I have seen one. Instead of saying, this is the best possibility because....no suddenly it is the Truth, as if people have a mind that sees it all. I used to think as that too, I have learned to be more carefull with this.
Again you are inventing a lie against God. Where does God say that NO ONE will believe through miracles?
Instead of saying, 'please brother explain yourself and see if we agree', the aggressive accusation is given to act as the 'defender of truth'.
Ok, give me ONE verse that says we will be guided through miracles.......There is nonethat says we will be guided through the supernatural, Allah guides us through reason. He always points out to His creation and its workings.
1679 Do they not see the birds committed to fly in the atmosphere of the sky? None holds them up in the air except GOD. This should be (sufficient) proof for people who believe.
106 In the difference of day and night, and all that Allah has created in the heavens and the earth, there are signs for those who wish to walk aright.[
3191 Those who remember God while standing, and sitting, and on their sides, and they ponder in the creation of the heavens and the Earth "Our Lord you did not create this without purpose, be You glorified, spare us the retribution of the Fire!"
And not through miracles
67 Even if we sent down to them a physical book, written on paper, and they touched it with their hands, those who disbelieved would have said, "This is no more than clever magic."
68 They also said, "If only an angel could come down with him!" Had we sent an angel, the whole matter would have been terminated, and they would no longer be respited.
69 Had we sent an angel, we would have sent him in the form of a man, and we would have kept them just as confused as they are confused now.635 And if their aversion has become too much for you, then perhaps you could make a tunnel in the Earth, or a ladder to the heavens, and bring them a sign. Had God willed, He would have gathered them to the guidance; so do not be of the ignorant ones.
6109 And they swore by God using their strongest oaths; that if a sign came to them they would believe in it. Say "The signs are from God; and how do you know that once it comes, that they would not disbelieve?"
6110 And We divert their hearts and eyesight, as they did not believe in it the first time; and We leave them wandering in their transgression.
6111 And if We had sent down to them the Angels, and the dead spoke to them, and We had gathered before them everything, they still would not believe except if God wills. But most of them are ignorant.A while back in one of your initial posts on this thread (http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13174.msg109550#msg109550) you tried to justify your personal theories/opinions and your personal desires by mistranslating a verse
Where does it say in the original arabic of the verse what you mistranslated in the underlined portion ?
Arnold, fear God. You have gone to the extreme of mistranslating God's verses for your own personal desires. This is not an interpretation but a DELIBERATE MISTRANSLATION/WRONG TRANSLATION. You should translate the verse accurately and then give your own conjectural interpretation separately but NOT IN THE VERSE ITSELF.
Here, reflect on the behaviour. Instead of 'Arnold please explain yourself', it is you lie! you mislead! you deliberate mislead people! Is this so? Maybe I have a reason to translate 'yasha' as such. If you disagree fine, but first examine the proof
2284 To God is what is in the heavens and in Earth, and if you declare what is in your souls or hide it, God will call you to account for it. He will forgive whom He wishes yasha, and punish whom He wishes yasha, and God is capable of all things.
Ok, does Allah punish only by His Will? Or through the Laws He has given us in the Quran? Of course Allah can do what He wants, but He promises certain things to us. Will a believer be punished by Allah, even though the believer has done everything Allah has decreed in the Quran?
Allah says this in the Quran
485 That He may admit the believing men and believing women into Gardens with rivers flowing beneath them, abiding eternally therein, and He will remit their sins from them. And with God this is a great triumph.And
2884 Whoever brings forth a good deed, he will receive a better reward than it. And whoever brings forth a sin then the retribution for their sins will be to the extent of their deeds.
People were punished because they went against Allah's Law.
7180 And to God belong the beautiful names, so call Him by them; and ignore those who blaspheme in His names. They will be punished for what they used to do.
Blasphemy the name = will cause punishment=is a Law. Who Allah punishes is determined by the Laws. Thus His Laws are expressing His Will.
This is a promise. So Allah's Will is bound to His Promises. If I follow His Laws, He must reward me, as this is His Promise. So His Will follows His Laws and thus His Laws are His Will.
Another one
3048 God Who sends the winds, so they raise clouds, and He spreads them in the sky as He wishes, then He turns them into joined pieces, then you see the rain drops come forth from their midst. Then when He makes them fall on whomever He wills of His servants, they rejoice!
We know that the workings of the weather is formed by laws. Clouds follow airdensity and are pushed by the factors that are determined by heat and cold air which cause the movement. Heat and cold are determined by the sun, and the sun has a fixed amount of heat outburst as the earth rotates, also every area on earth is only exposed to the earth determined by its position.
Is this movement of the clouds determined by randomn will or by laws that were determined before the creation of the Universe? Does Allah just push a cloud to where He wills? No, we can predict the weather as far as we can follow the factors involved. That weather-prediction is not accurate is because we cannot follow all factors that control the airflows. There are to many factors. But we can see a consistent reaction to factors. With heat, air will rise, it will not come down. When a area has less density of air, wind will be produced, as the less density will suck up air from denser area?s. There is consistency in these behaviour of nature. This is why Allah says we must observe them
2164 Surely, in the creation of heavens and Earth, and the differences between night and day, and the ships that sail in the sea for the benefit of mankind, and what God has sent down of water from the sky so He brings the Earth back to life after it had died, and He sent forth from it every creature, and the movement of the winds and the clouds that have been designated between the Earth and the sky are signs for a people that understand.
3046 And from His signs is that He sends the winds with glad tidings, and to give you a taste of His mercy, and so that the ships may sail by His command, and that you may seek of His bounty; perhaps you will be thankful.
Also this one
4249 To God is the sovereignty of the heavens and the Earth. He creates whatever He wills. He bestows daughters to whomever He wills, and bestows sons to whomever He wills.
Just as we were discussing in this thread. A boy or a girl is determind by an Y or X chromosome. The spermcell that makes it first to the femalecell, is that random will or is that determined by Laws? Well why do you think you ejeculate 100.000's of spermcells? Because one will have the correct position and path to reach the femalecell first. It is determined by the conditions the spermcell is in, which determines if it is first or not. And which conditions are the ones that will make a spermcell be first, were already determined in the Laws of nature. Laws that determine what is needed to make a spermcell quick or slow.
So what is Allah's Will here then? Is it not the Laws that determine the best position of a spermcell? Why a spermcell is first, is always determined by certain factors. When a runner wins a marathon, is it because of certain factors, or because random will, or is there a pattern to be found in why somebody wins or loses?
36 He is the One who pictures/shapes you in the wombs as He pleases. There is no god but Him, the Noble, the Wise.
How are foetusses shaped? What determines this? Is this not the factors involved? The food the mom eats. How much she rests. If she bumps the stomach or not. The genes the baby has? Are those genes not determined by the sperm and egg cells genes, and in which conditions the egg and sperm were created and and in which conditions they have merged their genes in?
Do these procedures follow random processes or fixed processes? Are these not determined by Laws of the Universe?
So what is Allah's Will? Is it random tampering with the creation? I believe not, Allah says we must look at the creation, investigate it. Why investigate it if it follows random processes? No, we must investigate them as understanding these laws and following them is following Allah's Will. It is the Laws that He has determined when creating the Universe. All must folow these Laws. When they follow these Laws, they are following Allah's Will. When we follow the Quran, we are following Allah's Will. Now, you will understand why I translate yasha with 'Laws' or 'Due Measure', as indeed 'yasha' means Will, but the Will of Allah are expressed in His Laws of the Universe.
If you believe a thing or not, are determined by Laws that control your psyche. Allah's Laws, thus Allah's Will. As these Laws and how you interact with them decide if you believe or not.
2142 The foolish from amongst the people will Say "What has turned them away from the focal point that they were on?" Say "To God is the east and the west, He guides whomsoever He wishes to a straight path."
They ask 'Why did they change their Qibla?'. Our reply is 'It is God's Will'. So what is His Will? Well He says 2 verses later
2144 We see the shifting of thy face towards the sky; We will thus set for you a focal point that will be pleasing to you "You shall set yourself towards the Restricted Temple; and wherever you may be, you shall all set yourselves towards it." Those who have been given the Scripture know it is the truth from their Lord. And God is not unaware of what you do.
Allah shows us His Will, through His Laws He gives us in the Quran.
313 There was a sign for you in the two groups that met. One was fighting in the cause of God, and the other was rejecting. They thus saw them as twice their number with their eyes. And God supports with His victory whom He wills. In this is a lesson for those with vision.
Is victory attained through random will or through fixed Laws? It is of course the factors that comply to the Laws that will gain the victory. This is why Allah says
860 And prepare for them all that you can of might, and from the steeds of war, that you may instil fear with it towards God's enemy and your enemy, and others beside them whom you do not know but God knows them. And whatever you spend in the cause of God will be returned to you, and you will not be wronged.
It is through good preparation and equipment and good men that decide a war's outcome. This is Allah's Will that is shown through His Laws. A true believer will always try to follow Allah's Laws. Allah promises us victory, but only when we follow His Laws that are in the Quran.
People who misunderstand Allah's Will believe Allah's Mercy is random, and is recieved through intervention of Allah
3647 And when it is said to them, ?Spend on others of the provision Allah has given to you?, the rejecters say to the believers, ?Shall we feed anyone whom Allah could have fed if He so willed? You people are obviously lost in error.?
They don't understand that feeding the poor is a Law of Allah, and through that Law His Will is expressed.
So Allah's Will is expressed in His Laws. Thus Allah's yasha/Will is equal to His Laws.
This is why I also believe that with Mary, her pregnancy followed the Laws of Allah. If this turned out to be parathenogenesis, I will accept, as this is the Law of Allah working, His Will. But to understand His Laws, we must observe them, and till now I'm not convinced parathenogenesis is workable in a natural way in mammals as it is with reptiles and other lower forms of species. Also I adhere to Intelligent Design Evolution, as this has the most evidence and is supported by the Quran in my view. If the Laws of Allah which carry out His Will show different causes, then I will accept them.
So next time, ask first instead of condeming. Dear brother, please think it through carefully. We don't have to agree on things, but your condeming is only justifying your need to be right, and is not defending Allah's Truth undefinitely.
So who is manipulating? Are you willing to admit that my explanation is pretty reasonable and maybe even most likely to be correct? As you said, it takes a strong human being to admit this. Are you also strong enough to react without emotion, and first read my post without any emotion. We all make mistakes, and I have made many, and Alhamdullileh I saw them when people pointed my behaviour out to me. This is hard. You can only do this through Allah's Will, which is to be objective, as the human psyche will not think clearly when it has its emotions triggered.
I really do hope you will understand this all. We are not obliged to agree, but at least we are obliged to respect each other and not condemning each other.
Salam Aleikum
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Peace "tanveer",
Another problem with this is that the cloning from females only results in females but Jesus was male. That would require yet additional manipulation to one of the the x-chromosomes in order to attain y-chromosme properties thus becoming such which is as far as i know not a single process and whther a direct transition from x - y is natural is all the more doubtful. GOD Bless! -
Peace jonny_k,
Another problem with this is that the cloning from females only results in females but Jesus was male. That would require yet additional manipulation to one of the the x-chromosomes in order to attain y-chromosme properties thus becoming such which is as far as i know not a single process and whther a direct transition from x - y is natural is all the more doubtful. GOD Bless!
I gave the example of cloning not to prove that Jesus's birth was exactly like that but to disprove Arnold's misinterpretation of virgin birth IN GENERAL of being impossible in humans (cloning proves virgin birth is possible), and to disprove his misinterpretation that a pair is created ONLY by a sperm (cloning can create male or female without a sperm).
It is also possible to clone an XY MALE from an XY FEMALE (e.g. Swyer's syndrome) through first repair of the SRY mutation in a somatic cell (possible by gene splicing techniques) and then cloning that repaired somatic cell. Again I am not saying that this is EXACTLY how Jesus was created, but that it is scientifically possible to clone a physiological male from a physiological female. No human can, however, replicate the superior "be" technology of God !!
Parthenogenesis might come close as males can arise from females by parthenogenesis (e.g. honey bees) and scientists believe that parthenogenesis is theoretically possible in mammals too.
Peace
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Peace Tay,
Duly noted...which begs the question, if cloning does not explain Isa's birth, isn't this thread a waste of time? No offense bro. By now I hope you can see that I do respect you and your knowledge on the subject. But I'm a bottom-line kind of person and if the bottom line is still clouded in mystery, then all this scientific debate is fruitless.
No this debate is not fruitless or waste of time. For details please see my reply to Khizar above and many other posts in which I have been repeating that same thing. The discussion is not to exactly explain Jesus's birth but to disprove some of Arnold's misinterpretations of some qur'aanic verses such as 4913 and 5345-46, thereby proving that Jesus's virgin birth does not contradict qur'aan, and is POSSIBLE WITHOUT CONTRADICTING QUR'AAN.
Arnold rejects Jesus's virgin birth on the basis of those misinterpretations whereby he tries to prove that because virgin birth in humans is impossible (cloning proves otherwise), and that a pair always arises from a sperm (cloning and parthenogenesis proves otherwise), so Jesus's virgin birth is impossible as it would contradict qur'aan (based on his misinterpretations), and hence misinterprets Mary's reaction to the good news based on these other misinterpretations which I have disproven by various scientific facts.
Peace
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Peace maxq,
Then please keep believing that this whole universe is running on random acts of God...
That is not what I believe
I believe that there are natural laws which don't change, and there are other natural laws too that we still don't understand or know which might explain some of the things we consider supernatural right now, and that God also intervenes from time to time, not randomly but based on His attributes and His promises. God can intervene without changing any laws too. For example he can cause the death of someone at a certain time without changing any natural laws or prevent the death of someone at a certain time, just by relevant intervention.
How do you explain one person jumping from a height of say a few feet and dying and another person jumping from 20,000 feet without a parachute and still surviving with minor injuries ? How do you explain someone who clinically died for hours and then came back ? How do you explain someone going in a coma for many years and then coming back intact ? How do you explain someone losing his sight for many years and being completely blind and then suddenly waking up one day with normal vision with no medical explanation ? How do you explain someone completely healthy misstepping and twisting one's ankle and thus missing a plane which later crashed with no survivors, and another person making it in time for the same flight against all odds and subsequently dying in the crash ? There are so many medical "miracles" that defy explanations based on "natural laws".
How do you explain the following two examples from qur'aan, among many others, based on non intervention of God and the natural laws ?
2259 Or the one who passed through a town, where all its inhabitants had passed away. He said "How can God possibly resurrect this after its death?" So God put him to death for one hundred years, then He resurrected him. He said "How long have you stayed here?" He said "I have stayed here a day or part of a day." He said "No, you have stayed here for one hundred years! Look at your food and drink, they have not changed, but look at your donkey! And We will make you a sign for the people; and look at the bones how We grow them, then We cover them with flesh." So when it was clear to him what happened, he said "I now know that God is capable of all things!"
349 And as a messenger to the Children of Israel "I have come to you with a sign from your Lord; that I create for you from clay the form of a bird, then I blow into it and it becomes a bird by God's leave, and I heal the blind and the leapers, and give life to the dead by God's leave, and I prophesize for you what you shall eat and what to store in your homes. In that is a sign for you if you are believers."
Quantum physics actually proves that God intervenes actively all the time and if He stops being an observer/interactor even for a nano second, the whole universe might cease to exist.
Peace