Criticism of Mecca and Kaaba
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Now lets come to "masjid"
15 Al-Masjidi Al-armi in Qur?an
1 Al-Masjidi Al-'Aqa? in Qur?an...2144 We see the shifting of your face towards the sky; We will thus set for you a focal point that will be pleasing to you "You shall set yourself towards Al-Masjidi Al-armi; and wherever you may be, you shall all set yourselves towards it." Those who have been given the Scripture know it is the truth from their Lord. And God is not unaware of what you do.
2149 And from wherever you go out, you shall set yourself towards Al-Masjidi Al-armi; it is the truth from your Lord; and God is not unaware of what you do.
2150 And wherever you go out, you shall set yourself towards Al-Masjidi Al-armi. And wherever you may be you shall set yourselves towards it; that the people will have no room for debate with you, except those of them who are wicked. You shall not fear them, but fear Me; so that I may complete My blessings upon you and that you may be guided.
2191 And kill them wherever you find them, and expel them from where they expelled you, and know that persecution is worse than being killed. And do not fight them at Al-Masjidi Al-armi unless they fight you in it; if they fight you then kill them, thus is the reward of the disbelievers.
2196 And complete Al-ajja and the visit for God. But, if you are prevented, then make what is affordable of donation, and do not shave your heads until the donation reaches its destination; but whoever of you is ill or has an affliction to his head, then he may redeem by fasting or giving a charity or a sacrifice. But if you are able, then whoever continues the visit until Al-ajji, then he shall provide what is affordable of donation; but for he who cannot find anything, then he must fast for three days during Al-ajji and seven when he returns; this will make a complete ten; this is for those whose family is not present at Al-Masjidi Al-armi. And be aware of God, and know that God is severe in retribution.
2217 They ask you about the restricted month "Is there fighting in it?" Say "Much fighting is in it, and to repel from the path of God and to disbelieve in Him, and at Al-Masjidi Al-armi, to drive its inhabitants out is far greater with God, and persecution is worse than being killed." And they still will fight you until they turn you back from your system if they are able. And whoever of you turns back from his system, and he dies while disbelieving, then these have nullified their work in this life and the next; these are the people of the Fire, in it they will abide eternally!
52 O you who believe, do not violate God's symbols, nor the restricted month, nor the donations, nor what is regulated, nor the safety made by Al-Bayta Al-arma; for they are seeking a bounty from their Lord and a blessing. And when it is permitted for you, then you may hunt. And let not the hatred of another people; because they had barred you from Al-Masjidi Al-armi; make you aggress. And bond together in piety and righteousness, and do not bind together in sin and aggression. And be aware of God, for God's retribution is severe.
834 And why should God not punish them when they are turning others away from Al-Masjidi Al-armi, and they were never its protectors! Its protectors are the righteous; but most of them do not know.
97 How can those who have set up partners have a pledge with God and with His messenger? Except for those with whom you made a pledge near Al-Masjidi Al-armi, as long as they are upright with you, then you are upright with them. God loves the righteous.
919 Have you made the watering of Al-jji and the maintenance of Al-Masjidi Al-armi the same as one who believes in God and the Last Day and he strives in the cause of God? They are not the same with God. And God does not guide the wicked people.
928 O you who believe, those who have set up partners are impure, so let them not approach Al-Masjida Al-arma after this year of theirs; and if you fear poverty, then God will enrich you from His blessings if He wills. God is Knowledgeable, Wise.
171 Glory be to the One who took His servant by night from Al-Masjidi Al-armi to Al-Masjidi Al-'Aqa? which We had blessed around, so that We may show him of Our signs. Indeed, He is the Listener, the Seer.
2225 Those who have rejected and repel from the path of God and Al-Masjidi Al-armi that We have made for the people, for the dweller or the visitor to it; and whoever inclines to evil action in it, We will let them taste a painful retribution.
4825 They are the ones who rejected and barred you from Al-Masjidi Al-armi, and barred your donations from reaching their destination. And there had been believing men and women whom you did not know, and you may have hurt them, and on whose account you would have committed a sin unknowingly. God will admit into His mercy whomever He wills. Had they become separated, We would then have punished those of them who rejected with a painful retribution.
4827 God has fulfilled with truth His messenger's vision "You will enter Al-Masjida Al-arma, God willing, secure, with your heads shaven and shortened, having no fear." Thus, He knew what you did not know, and He has coupled with this a near victory.
Are not the above physical acts?
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SECONDLY "hajj" is for people in general (2227) and "al-masjid al-haram" is banned for those who set up partners with The God (mushrikeen) per 928.
Please read in context and see that Al-Masjidi Al-armi was "made for the people" which 2227 calls out to?
2225 Those who have rejected and repel from the path of God and Al-Masjidi Al-armi that We have made for the people, for the dweller or the visitor to it; and whoever inclines to evil action in it, We will let them taste a painful retribution.
2226 And We have appointed to Abraham the location of Al-Bayti "Do not set up anyone with Me, and purify My Baytiya for those who will partake, and those who will enforce, and those who kneel and prostrate."
2227 And call out to the people with Bil-ajji, they will come to you walking and on every transport, they will come from every deep enclosure.
928 O you who believe, those who have set up partners are impure, so let them not approach Al-Masjida Al-arma after this year of theirs; and if you fear poverty, then God will enrich you from His blessings if He wills. God is Knowledgeable, Wise.
??after this year of theirs? means pagans had access once and are to be physically banned!
Al-Masjid Al-Aqsa was built during the Ummayad dynasty long after the revelation of the Qur'aan. Hence, it cannot be "al-masjid al-aqsa" talked about in Chapter 17.
Why can?t it refer to the location?
A few more verses?
731 O Children of Adam, dress nicely at every Masjidin, and eat and drink and do not indulge; He does not like the indulgers.
177 If you do good, then it will be good for you, and if you do bad, then so be it. But when the promise of the second time comes, they will make your faces filled with sorrow and they will enter Al-Masjida as they did the first time, and they will strike down all that was raised up.
1821 And as such, We revealed their case so that they would know that God's promise is true and that there is no doubt regarding the Hour. They argued amongst themselves regarding them, so they said "Erect a monument for them!" Their Lord is fully aware of them, those who managed to win the argument said "We will construct a Masjidan over them."
Peace
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Peace Nun de plume,
As you can yourself see from the translations of the verses you posted, that "bayt" is different from "masjid" and according to al-qur'aan cannot be the same.
4825 They are the ones who rejected and barred you from Al-Masjidi Al-armi, and barred your donations from reaching their destination. And there had been believing men and women whom you did not know, and you may have hurt them, and on whose account you would have committed a sin unknowingly. God will admit into His mercy whomever He wills. Had they become separated, We would then have punished those of them who rejected with a painful retribution.
4827 God has fulfilled with truth His messenger's vision "You will enter Al-Masjida Al-arma, God willing, secure, with your heads shaven and shortened, having no fear." Thus, He knew what you did not know, and He has coupled with this a near victory.
Are not the above physical acts?
Maybe you don't know what "institution" means. When you institutionalize something this means that you implement it. Of course the Prophet and his followers were prevented by the rejecters from implementing the obedience of the restriction and this is what is being told to us in 4825. What is restricted is given in 6151-153, among other passages.
- Those who have rejected/unappreciated and repelled from the path of The God and al-masjid al-haram/the institution of hearing and obeying the restriction that we had appointed/established for the people, equally the one committed in it and the one who left to find clarity. And whoever deviates in it with falsely attributing with injustice, we will cause them to taste from a painful suffering.
The rejecters repelled from both "the path of God" and "al-masjid al-haram"/the institution of hearing and obeying the restriction; does that mean that "the path of God" is physical ?
"Al-masjid al-haram" (the institution of hearing and obeying the restriction) is a non-physical institution of authority just like "sabeel Allah" (the path of The God) is non-physical. Those who rejected repel from both in the same way. These verses (2225, 4825) are talking about the disbelievers repelling and keeping away the believers from smooth running of the government institution for implementing hearing and obeying of the restrictions of the system/deen, thereby disrupting it. It would be similar to a group of terrorists trying to disrupt a government institution meeting for passing laws in a country nowadays. In these verses, just like the path of God is not a physical road or highway, similarly "al-masjid al-haram" is not a physical building but an institution of authority (government institution) for implementing the hearing and obeying of the forbidden.
1102 And you see the people entering into God's deen/system/obligation in flocks.
People are seen ENTERING God's deen; does it mean that God's deen is a physical building ?
4827 God has fulfilled with truth His messenger's vision "You will enter al-masjid al-haram, God willing, secure, with your heads high/relieved and restrained, having no fear." Thus, He knew what you did not know, and He has coupled with this a near victory.
The above verse is also grossly mistranslated by the traditional translators. Firstly there was no physical building by the name of Masjid Al-Haram at the time of revelation of the qur'aan. Secondly, when there is victory, the victors do not enter the defeated town with their heads shaved or hair cut short. Does it make any sense that when the believers were victorious they all went to the barbers and either shaved their head or cut their hair short ? What for ? Thirdly, there is no word for "hair" in this verse. The object for "muhalliqeena" translated as "shaved" and "muqassireena" translated as "shortened" is "ruoosakum" meaning "head", but it is obvious that one cannot shorten or cut the head !! Fourthly, did The God forget about bald people ? !!
MUHALLAQ = soaring, in flight, high, flying, high flying.
QASAR = short, cut short, reduce, lessen, insufficient, inadequate, fail to attain/achieve, cease, abstain, refrain, to hold back, restrain, curb
This verse talks about the victory of the believers over those who were fighting with them to try to keep them away and repel them from establishing/setting up "al-masjid al-haram"/government institution of hearing and obeying the forbidden i.e. revert them from their obligation/"deen". This is confirmed by verses 1101-2
1101 When God's victory and conquest comes.
1102 And you see mankind entering into God's system in flocks.Putting 4827 and 1101-2 together, we can see that after the victory of the messenger and those with him over those who tried to revert them from their "deen"/system/obligation, they will enter the institute of hearing and obeying the forbidden safely and securely with their heads high/relieved and restrained (self-controlled) and then many people will follow and enter The God's obligation.
One can enter "al-masjid al-haram" without it being a physical building just like mankind can enter The God's "deen"/system without "deen" being a physical building.
The same exact words used for "al-masjid al-haram" are used for "deen" and "month of restriction", yet no one suggests that "deen" or "month of restriction" is a physical building
2190-191. And fight in the path of The God those who fight you and do not aggress, The God doesn't love the aggressors. And kill them wherever/however you catch them and evict them from however they evicted you and the persecution is more severe than the killing and do not fight them at the institution of hearing and obeying the restriction until they fight you in it. If they fight you, then kill them. This is the penalty of the rejecters.
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The God only forbids you from taking as protectors those who fought you in the obligation/"deen" and evicted you from your homes and they openly tried to evict you and whoever takes them as protectors, those are the unjust.
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They ask you about fighting in the month of the restriction, say "Fighting in it is a big (offense) and repelling from the path of The God and rejecting Him and the institution of hearing and obeying the restriction/"al-masjid al-haram" and evicting its community from it is bigger at The God and the persecution is more severe than the killing. And they will continue to fight you until they revert you from your obligation/"deen" and whoever amongst you reverts from his obligation and dies while a rejecter, his deeds are wasted in the low life and in the ending and those are the companions of the fire, wherein they abide eternally.
Our obligation/"deen" is to institute the hearing and obeying of the restriction. If someone fights us and tries to kill us because we institute hearing and obeying what The God restricted on us then we should fight back.
Please read in context and see that Al-Masjidi Al-armi was "made for the people" which 2227 calls out to?
2225 Those who have rejected and repel from the path of God and Al-Masjidi Al-armi that We have made for the people, for the dweller or the visitor to it; and whoever inclines to evil action in it, We will let them taste a painful retribution.
2226 And We have appointed to Abraham the location of Al-Bayti "Do not set up anyone with Me, and purify My Baytiya for those who will partake, and those who will enforce, and those who kneel and prostrate."
2227 And call out to the people with Bil-ajji, they will come to you walking and on every transport, they will come from every deep enclosure.
928 O you who believe, those who have set up partners are impure, so let them not approach Al-Masjida Al-arma after this year of theirs; and if you fear poverty, then God will enrich you from His blessings if He wills. God is Knowledgeable, Wise.
??after this year of theirs? means pagans had access once and are to be physically banned!
According to 2225, "al-masjid al-haram" is made not for all people but the verse clearly tells us that it is made for those people who are "al-'aakif" and "al-baadi".
Let us reconsider 2225 where these two words "al-'aakif" and "al-baadi" are usually mistranslated
2225 Those who have rejected and repel from the path of God and al-masjid al-haram that We have made for mankind, for the dweller or the visitor to it; and whoever inclines to evil action in it, We will let them taste a painful retribution.
Masjid Al-Haram, if it is a physical building would be a place of upholding salat, and not a city or a town, or a house where people DWELL. Moreover there is no evidence of a physical building by that name while the qur'aan was being revealed, so how can someone dwell or visit a non-existent building ?
'AAKIF one who devotes or dedicates oneself to, one who is occupied with or engaged in, one who applies one's self assiduously, one committed to.
BAADI the one who left where one was to search for clarity
The correct translation of 2225 would therefore be as follows
- Those who have rejected/unappreciated and repelled from the path of The God and the institution of hearing and obeying the restriction that we had appointed/established for the people, equally the one committed in it and the one who left to find clarity. And whoever deviates in it with falsely attributing with injustice, we will cause them to taste from a painful suffering.
We implement The God's system by orienting ourselves towards "al-masjid al-haram"/the truth from our Lord wherever we are. For example, our institutions of authority (such as government) should be based on the principles of the truth from our Lord in the great reading. Naturally, those who setup partners would not implement such system but will try to undermine it for personal gains. Thus, we should not allow them to be in authority or even come near positions of authority. On the other hand, "al-masjid al-haram"/the truth from our Lord is for people who are committed to it (al-'aakif) and people who have left where they were to search for clarity (al-baadi), but not for the mushrikeen.
If we look under the Arabic root "BDW", we will find that it has meanings such as "made apparent/clear" (3947-48, 4533, etc.), "occur to/think of" (1235), and "left where they were" (3320). The word "badw" is applied to people who leave where they are to search for something such as grazing places or water. So we can see that the themes of leaving, searching and making clear/apparent are the main themes that run through that word. Thus, "al-baadi" in the context of 2225 is someone who left what they were on (examples include Christianity, Sunnism, or any inherited dogma). They left in order to search for what ? From the other meanings of "BDW", it can be deduced that they left to search for clarity. Thus, the translation of "al-baadi" is "one who left to search for clarity".
In 2225 we are being told which people "al-masjid al-haram" is for and in 928 we are being told which people cannot approach it, so there is no contradiction. But according to 2227, "hajj"/debate is for the people, and it does not restrict which people as 2225 does.
Thus "al-bayt" cannot be the same as "al-masjid al-haram", because per 2225 and 928, the mushrikeen are not allowed to approach "al-masjid al-haram" which is made only for "al-'aakif" and "al-baadi" among the people, but per 2227 the people (including mushrikeen) are to be called with "hajj" and per 2158 and 397 "hajj" is directly linked with "al-bayt".
HAJJ AL-BAYT ------------> the people (including mushrikeen) per 928
AL-MASJID AL-HARAM ----------> "al-'aakif" and "al-baadi" among the people (excluding mushrikeen) per 2225
Looking at these two, even a moron will admit that "al-bayt" cannot be the same as "al-masjid al-haram", and "hajj" can be linked with "al-bayt" but not with "al-masjid al-haram", so you should be able to admit that too as you are not a moron but seem to be intelligent !
Another point to note is that at the beginning of the verse 2225, The God says that He appointed/established the path of The God AND al-masjid al-haram. He uses the same word "ja'alna" for both. Now the path of Allah is not a physical road or highway, so if one takes "ja'alna" to mean "physically made" then "path of Allah" will not fit that meaning. The only way "ja'alna" can be used for both path of Allah and "al-masjid al-haram" is if both were non-physical.
Why can?t it refer to the location?
Which location ? There was no such location by that name during revelation of al-qur'aan.
731 O Children of Adam, dress nicely at every Masjidin, and eat and drink and do not indulge; He does not like the indulgers.
Do you stop at EVERY Mosque/Temple and take some beautiful things (not clothes since 731 doesn't say anything about clothes)? If not, and if you haven't visited EVERY Mosque/Temple in your lifetime you are disobeying 731.
This is what happens when you mistranslate God's verses. 731 does not say anything about clothes. The correct translation is as follows
731 O Children of Adam, take your beautiful things at every Masjidin/institution of hearing and obeying, and eat and drink and do not indulge; He does not like the indulgers.
Sign 731 can be understood in light of 732.
- Say "Who has restricted the beautiful things that The God has brought forth for His servants and the good provisions?" Say "It is for those who had faith in this worldly life, exclusive for them on the day of resurrection". It is such that We explain the revelations for those who know.
Should we obey those who restrict the beautiful things that The God made (such as silk and gold)? Of course not, we should instead obey The God and our institutions of hearing and obeying should promote the many beautiful things that The God created.
177 If you do good, then it will be good for you, and if you do bad, then so be it. But when the promise of the second time comes, they will make your faces filled with sorrow and they will enter Al-Masjida as they did the first time, and they will strike down all that was raised up.
1102 And you see the people entering into God's deen/system/obligation in flocks.
People are seen ENTERING God's deen; does it mean that God's deen is a physical building ?
177 is talking about entering the institution of hearing and obeying, and they will strike down all the paganism/corruption/fabrication that was raised/invented once they institute hearing and obeying in their lives once again. "AAalaw" does not necessarily mean raising something physical but also means elevate/exalt something non physical such as dignity, goodliness, corruption etc.
1821 And as such, We revealed their case so that they would know that God's promise is true and that there is no doubt regarding the Hour. They argued amongst themselves regarding them, so they said "Erect a monument for them!" Their Lord is fully aware of them, those who managed to win the argument said "We will construct a Masjidan over them."
This verse actually confirms that "masjid" is not the physical building
- And as such, We made them to be found so that they would know that The God?s promise is true and that there is no doubt regarding the hour. They argued amongst themselves regarding their matter, so they said "Construct a building upon them, their Lord is fully aware of them." Those who prevailed in their matter said "We will take an institution of hearing and obeying over them."
Note that in 1821, those who argued said "build/construct (ibnoo) a physical building on them". On the other hand, those who prevailed said that they will take a "masjid" in contrast to the physical building. Thus in this verse "masjid" is CONTRASTED with a physical building.
"Nattakhithanna" does not mean "to construct" but "to take" and can mean "to take a manner or way of life". Please note that in the same verse where God talks about "constructing" a physical monument (bunyaan), He uses the word "ibnoo". If towards the end of the verse, God had meant "to construct" a physical building called "masjid", He would have used the same word "ibnoo" AAlayhim masjidan.
The sign tells us that the ones who won the argument did not want to construct a physical building in commemoration of the people of the cave but to take institution of hearing and obeying over them. In other words, they said "WE SHALL ADHERE UNTO / TAKE UPON THEIR INSTITUTION OF HEARING AND OBEYING", rather than construct physical buildings.
What was the INSTITUTION OF HEARING AND OBEYING of the people of the caves?
1814 We gave strength to their hearts Behold they stood up and said "Our Lord is the Lord of the heavens and of the earth NEVER SHALL WE CALL UPON ANY GOD OTHER THAN HIM if we did; we should indeed have uttered an enormity!"
The INSTITUTION OF HEARING AND OBEYING of the people of caves was that they refused to call any god other than the Lord of the heavens and the earth.
If we see the other verses in al-qur'aan, "NATTAKHITH" is used to mean "TAKE" not "BUILD" or "CONSTRUCT".
1212 And the one from Egypt who bought him said to his wife "Make his stay generous, perhaps he will benefit us or we may take (NATTAKHITH) him as a son." And it was thus that We established Joseph in the land and to teach him the interpretation of dreams. And God has full power over matters, but most of mankind do not know.
4118 God has cursed him; and he had said "I will take (ATTAKHITHANNA) from Your servants a sizeable portion."
Peace
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Peace and greetings,
Dear Tanveer,
You are making philosophical meanings by the word Masjid, which is not supported by any archaeological evidence. You have used logic, judgement, knowledge and analysations according to the best of your ability to make a debate against physical nature of the mosque. You have analysed patterns of the Quran to support your argument. I have read Christoph luxumburg who uses the same type of logical patterns to drive association of arabic words of the Quran. You must support your etymology by established sources whether contemporary or archaeological. You are trying to establish etymological complexity according to your Judgement. Remember that we can convert any literal concept into metaphor simply if we wish to do so. Some philosophers term the physical existance of this world as merely human brain's projected dream.We use contemporary or archaeological sources to translate Quran, you cannot invent your own arabic etymology according to your logical feelings unless there is strong linguistic evidence. Progressive muslims have done a great Job. Sometimes we become so passionate about some meanings that we deliberately define and find a pattern to support our deeply passionate Judgement.
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Peace and greetings,
The arguments for the Masjid to be non physical would only be acceptable if they are supported by reliable contemporary linguistic or archaeological evidence. I once even thought that mosque was non physical and had tons of material to support my claims like the way brother Aymen and brother Tanveer have done but had to revert because there is no solid and reliable linguistic or archaeological proof. Mosque is no idol, it is just a place of gathering for God's rememberance and is of course a well constructed physical building. Now if you have a philosophical, Judgemental, and logical problem then of course no archaeology or linguistics will be of any help because you would bend, shape and mould evrything according to your theories. Please give a solid proof and not Judgemental theories which can support almost any claim you wish to. Shias and Sunnis have deviated from Quran by practicing rituals in Mosques but that does not mean that Mosque is just a philosophical word. Ritualistic nature is deviation but physical construction is not and not even sunnis and shias idolise Kaaba, it is just that we Quran only muslims are hysterical about them. I think that the logical research should be carried out for Bekka and Mecca differences in the liguistic and archaeological context which is more positive than philosophical theories.
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As you can yourself see from the translations of the verses you posted, that "bayt" is different from "masjid" and according to al-qur'aan cannot be the same.
Peace Tanveer,
That is according to your translations/interpretations as eloquently stated by abrar above; most ALL MUSLIMS agree they are different names referring to the same thing similar to?
Bismi Allhi Ar-Ramni Ar-Rami
1063 So let them serve the Lord of this Al-Bayti.
Which House/Shrine/Temple is the above referring to?
1102 And you see the people entering into God's deen/system/obligation in flocks.
People are seen ENTERING God's deen; does it mean that God's deen is a physical building ?
No, ENTERING God?s deen is accepting Islam which no one has power to prevent at anytime!
4827 God has fulfilled with truth His messenger's vision "You will enter al-masjid al-haram, God willing, secure, with your heads high/relieved and restrained, having no fear." Thus, He knew what you did not know, and He has coupled with this a near victory.
The above verse is also grossly mistranslated by the traditional translators. Firstly there was no physical building by the name of Masjid Al-Haram at the time of revelation of the qur'aan.
How do know this? Why does almost every scholar (traditionalist to Qur?an alone) disagree with you?
Why has this been going on for 1400 years?
http//islam.ii.net/channel/i/hajj.jpg
Looking at these two, even a moron will admit that "al-bayt" cannot be the same as "al-masjid al-haram", and "hajj" can be linked with "al-bayt" but not with "al-masjid al-haram", so you should be able to admit that too as you are not a moron but seem to be intelligent !
Why not keep it respectful? A billion Muslims can infer the same about you!
731 O Children of Adam, dress nicely at every Masjidin, and eat and drink and do not indulge; He does not like the indulgers.
Do you stop at EVERY Mosque/Temple and take some beautiful things (not clothes since 731 doesn't say anything about clothes)? If not, and if you haven't visited EVERY Mosque/Temple in your lifetime you are disobeying 731.Any moron can see the verse above is addressed to O Children of Adam ? to EVERYONE at EVERY MOSQUE/TEMPLE!
Hopefully you see that since you seem to be intelligent!
Salam!
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Peace and greetings,
Below is an article written by a Jewish scholar criticising mecca.
In light of the claims of the Quran, we challenge Muslims to answer the following questions by consulting the Quran ALONE. We advise that our readers first read the list of Quranic citations that go along with this present list of questions
Can you show from the Quran alone where Ishmael settled?
Can you produce one single verse from the Quran stating that he settled in Mecca?
Since Jerusalem means "city of Peace", doesn?t this prove that when Abraham supposedly asked God to make the place of his settlement "a city of Peace" he was referring to Jerusalem and not Mecca?
Wouldn?t this prove that Ishmael actually settled in Jerusalem?
Wouldn?t this then prove that Abraham and Ishmael built the house in Jerusalem?
The Quran says that this house was built in Becca. The Old Testament says Becca or Baca was en route to the Temple in Jerusalem
"Blessed are those whose strength is in you, who have set their hearts on pilgrimage. As they pass through the Valley of Baca, they make it a place of springs the autumn rains also cover it with pools. They go from strength to strength, till each appears before God in Zion? Better is one day in your courts than a thousand elsewhere; I would rather be a doorkeeper IN THE HOUSE OF MY GOD than dwell in the tents of the wicked." Psalm 844-7, 10
This particular Baca is in northern Israel as the text itself suggests. Furthermore, the term Baca in Hebrew can mean either "weeping" or "balsam trees." Hence, the valley of Baca can be translated as the valley of balsam trees. We find reference to such a place located within the Valley of Rephaim, an area approximately 3-4 miles south and west of Jerusalem
"Once more the Philistines came up and spread out in the Valley of Rephaim; so David inquired of the LORD, and he answered, ?Do not go straight up, but circle around behind them and attack them in front of the balsam (Hebrew- Baca) trees.?" 2 Samuel 522-23
Noting that the valley of Baca is actually less than 5 miles away from Jerusalem, it makes sense that the Psalmist could speak of pilgrims making their way through Baca to appear before God in Zion. The reader is invited to look up the distance between Jerusalem and Mecca and use common sense to determine how likely it is that the Psalmist recommend the Israelite pilgrims to make a detour to Mecca as they made their annual pilgrimage to Mount Zion.
This being the case, wouldn?t this provide undeniable proof that the first house of worship is not the Kabah, but the Temple in Jerusalem?
Can you even find a single verse where Becca is said to be an alternate name for Mecca?
There is even more evidence that the house which Abraham and Ishmael built is none other than the one in Jerusalem. The Quran tells believers to take the station of Abraham as a place of prayer. It is interesting to note that the Temple in Jerusalem was actually built in the same area where Abraham offered up Isaac!
"Sometime later God tested Abraham. He said to him, then, ?Abraham!? ?Here I am,? he replied. Then God said, ?Take your son, your only son, Isaac, whom you love, and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains I will tell you about.? Early the next morning Abraham got up and saddled his donkey. He took with him two of his servants and his son Isaac. And he had cut enough wood fort he burnt offering, he sat out for the place that God had told him about. On the third day Abraham looked up and saw the place in the distance? Isaac spoke up and said to his father Abraham, ?Father?? ?Yes, my son?? Abraham replied. ?The fire and wood are here,? Isaac said, ?but where is the lamb for the burnt offering?? Abraham answered, ?God himself will provide the lamb for the burnt offering, my son.? Abraham looked up and there in the thicket he saw a ram caught by its horns. He went over and took the ram and sacrificed as a burnt offering instead of his son. So Abraham called THAT PLACE The LORD Will Provide. And to this day it is said, ?On the mountain of the LORD it will be provided.?" Genesis 221-4, 7-8, 13-14
"Then Solomon began to build the temple of the LORD in Jerusalem ON MOUNT MORIAH, where the LORD had appeared to his father David." 2 Chronicles 31With this said, can you provide a single passage stating that the station of Abraham is in Mecca and not in Jerusalem?
Yet this introduces additional problems. Solomon, not Abraham, built the Temple in Jerusalem, as the preceding passage shows. Since the first Temple wasn?t built until the time of Solomon, how can Abraham and Ishmael have built it?
Again, if it is claimed that the first house of worship is the Kabah in Mecca, can you please produce a single Quranic verse explicitly stating this?
What direction is the Qiblah?
If you say it is Mecca, can you show this from the Quran itself?
What is the location of the sacred mosque (Ali?s Inviolable Place of Worship), i.e. masjid al-haram?
If you claim that it is Mecca, can you produce a single verse stating that the sacred mosque is located there?
The following passage is the closest the Quran ever comes to making this connection"And He it is Who hath withheld men's hands from you, and hath withheld your hands from them, in the valley of Mecca, after He had made you victors over them. Allah is Seer of what ye do. These it was who disbelieved and debarred you from the Inviolable Place of Worship, and debarred the offering from reaching its goal. And if it had not been for believing men and believing women, whom ye know not - lest ye should tread them under foot and thus incur guilt for them unknowingly; that Allah might bring into His mercy whom He will - If (the believers and the disbelievers) had been clearly separated We verily had punished those of them who disbelieved with painful punishment." S. 4824-25 Pickthall
Even this passage falls short of identifying Mecca as the location of the sacred mosque. It only claims that while in the valley of Mecca there were certain unnamed men who tried to prevent the Muslims from reaching the sacred mosque. If anything, this implies that the mosque was not in Mecca, but that Mecca was en route to the location of the mosque!
The following passage may also imply that the house is located in Mecca
O ye who believe! Kill no wild game while ye are on the pilgrimage. Whoso of you killeth it of set purpose he shall pay its forfeit in the equivalent of that which he hath killed, of domestic animals, the judge to be two men among you known for justice, (the forfeit) to be brought as an offering to the Ka'bah; or, for expiation, he shall feed poor persons, or the equivalent thereof in fasting, that he may taste the evil consequences of his deed. Allah forgiveth whatever (of this kind) may have happened in the past, but whoso relapseth, Allah will take retribution from him. Allah is Mighty, Able to Requite (the wrong). To hunt and to eat the fish of the sea is made lawful for you, a provision for you and for seafarers; but to hunt on land is forbidden you so long as ye are on the pilgrimage. Be mindful of your duty to Allah, unto Whom ye will be gathered. Allah hath appointed the Ka'bah, the Sacred House, a standard for mankind, and the Sacred Month and the offerings and the garlands. That is so that ye may know that Allah knoweth whatsoever is in the heavens and whatsoever is in the earth, and that Allah is Knower of all things. S. 595-97 Pickthall
This passage only introduces additional problems. First, the word Kabah simply means cube and can refer to any cube structure which was used by the pagans in their worship of their idols. In fact, according to Muslim historians there were several Kabahs in existence
Jabir reported that there was in pre-Islamic days a temple called Dhu'l-Khalasah and it was called the Yamanite Ka'ba or the northern Ka'ba. Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said unto me Will you rid me of Dhu'l-Khalasah and so I went forth at the head of 350 horsemen of the tribe of Ahmas and we destroyed it and killed whomsoever we found there. Then we came back to him (to the Holy Prophet) and informed him and he blessed us and the tribe of Ahmas. (Sahih Muslim, Book 031, Number 6052)
Jarir b. 'Abdullah al-Bajali said Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said to me Can't one rid me of Dhu'l-Khalasah, the idol-house of Khath'am, and this idol-house was called the Yamanite Ka'ba. So I went along with 150 horsemen and I could not sit with steadfastness upon the horse. I made the mention of it to Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) and he struck his hand on my chest and said O Allah, grant him steadfastness and make him the guide of righteousness and the rightly-guided one. So he went away and he set fire to it. Then Jarir sent some person to Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) whose Kunya was Abu Arta to give him the happy news about that. He came to Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) and said I have not come to you (but with the news) that we have left Dhu'l-Khalasah as a scabed camel. Thereupon Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) blessed the horses of Ahmas and the men of their tribe five times. (Sahih Muslim, Book 031, Number 6053)
The banu-al-Harith ibn-Ka'b had in Najran a Ka'bah which they venerated. It is the one which al-A'sha mentions in one of his odes. It has been claimed that it was not a Ka'bah for worship, but merely a hall for those people whom the poet mentioned. In my opinion, this is very likely the case, since I have not heard of the banu-al-Harith ever mentioning it in their poetry. (Source)
There is a footnote here that says
- See Diwan al-A'sha, ed. Rudolf Geyer, London, 1928, p.122, line 6, where the poet says, " the Ka'bah of Najran IS AN ORDINANCE INCUMBENT UPON YOU; until you dismount in front of its gates."
And
The Iyid had another Ka'bah in Sindad, in a region between al-Kufah and al-Basrah. It is the one which al-Aswad ibn-Ya'fur mentions . I have, however, heard that this house was not a place of worship. Rather it was a celebrated edifice; consequently al-Aswad mentioned it.
A certain man of the Juhaynah named 'Ahd-al-Dar ibn-Hudayb once said to his people, "Come let us build a house (to be located in a spot in their territory called al-Hawra' with which we would rival the Ka'bah, thereby attracting many of the Arabs," They deemed the suggestion very grave and refused to heed his behest. Thereupon he said
"I had wished that a house be raised, Free of iniquity and removed from sin. But those who, when called upon to face a crisis, Steal away and tilde in rite outskirts of Qawdam, Have demurred and refused my request. They clamor and cry, and insist that no one should give them orders, And when entreated they turn away--some withdraw like the mute and the dumb. They withhold their charity and conceal every insult Among their kin, as the mark of the brand is hid." (Source)
Herein lies the problem since this introduces an additional question. How can you prove from the Quran alone that the Kabah mentioned in this passage is the one in Mecca and not somewhere else? The fact that the passage cited before this implies that Mecca was en route to the sacred mosque proves that it is not speaking of the Meccan Kabah. And yet the moment you go outside the Quran to show that it is the Meccan Kabah you immediately falsify the Quran since you prove that it is a rather incomplete guidance.
The Verses
And remember that Abraham was tried by his Lord with certain commands, which he fulfilled He said "I will make thee an Imam to the Nations." He pleaded "And also (Imams) from my offspring!" He answered "But My Promise is not within the reach of evil-doers." Remember We made the House a place of assembly for men and a place of safety; and take ye the station of Abraham as a place of prayer; and We covenanted with Abraham and Isma'il, that they should sanctify My House for those who compass it round, or use it as a retreat, or bow, or prostrate themselves (therein in prayer). And remember Abraham said "My Lord, make this a City of Peace, and feed its people with fruits, - such of them as believe in Allah and the Last Day." He said "(Yea), and such as reject Faith, - for a while will I grant them their pleasure, but will soon drive them to the torment of Fire, - an evil destination (indeed)!" And remember Abraham and Isma'il raised the foundations of the House (With this prayer) "Our Lord! Accept (this service) from us For Thou art the All-Hearing, the All-knowing." And remember Abraham and Isma'il raised the foundations of the House (With this prayer) "Our Lord! Accept (this service) from us For Thou art the All-Hearing, the All-knowing." And who turns away from the religion of Abraham but such as debase their souls with folly? Him We chose and rendered pure in this world And he will be in the Hereafter in the ranks of the Righteous. S. 2125-130
"Most surely the first house appointed for men is the one at Bekka, blessed and a guidance for the nations. In it are clear signs, the standing place of Ibrahim, and whoever enters it shall be secure, and pilgrimage to the House is incumbent upon men for the sake of Allah, (upon) every one who is able to undertake the journey to it; and whoever disbelieves, then surely Allah is Self-sufficient, above any need of the worlds." S. 396-7 Shakir
Remember Abraham said "O my Lord! make this city one of peace and security and preserve me and my sons from worshipping idols. O my Lord! they have indeed led astray many among mankind; He then who follows my (ways) is of me, and he that disobeys me, - but Thou art indeed Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. O our Lord! I have made some of my offspring to dwell in a valley without cultivation, by Thy Sacred House; in order, O our Lord, that they may establish regular Prayer so fill the hearts of some among men with love towards them, and feed them with fruits so that they may give thanks. O our Lord! truly Thou dost know what we conceal and what we reveal for nothing whatever is hidden from Allah, whether on earth or in heaven. Praise be to Allah, Who hath granted unto me in old age Isma'il and Isaac for truly my Lord is He, the Hearer of Prayer! O my Lord! make me one who establishes regular Prayer, and also (raise such) among my offspring O our Lord! and accept Thou my Prayer. O our Lord! cover (us) with Thy Forgiveness - me, my parents, and (all) Believers, on the Day that the Reckoning will be established!" 1435-41
The fools among the people will say "What hath turned them from the Qibla to which they were used?" Say To Allah belong both east and West He guideth whom He will to a Way that is straight. Thus, have We made of you an Ummat justly balanced, that ye might be witnesses over the nations, and the Apostle a witness over yourselves; and We appointed the Qibla to which thou wast used, only to test those who followed the Apostle from those who would turn on their heels (From the Faith). Indeed it was (A change) momentous, except to those guided by Allah. And never would Allah Make your faith of no effect. For Allah is to all people Most surely full of kindness, Most Merciful. We see the turning of thy face (for guidance to the heavens) now Shall We turn thee to a Qibla that shall please thee. Turn then Thy face in the direction of the sacred Mosque Wherever ye are, turn your faces in that direction. The people of the Book know well that that is the truth from their Lord. Nor is Allah unmindful of what they do. Even if thou wert to bring to the people of the Book all the Signs (together), they would not follow Thy Qibla; nor art thou going to follow their Qibla; nor indeed will they follow each other's Qibla. If thou after the knowledge hath reached thee, Wert to follow their (vain) desires, - then wert thou Indeed (clearly) in the wrong. The people of the Book know this as they know their own sons; but some of them conceal the truth which they themselves know. The Truth is from thy Lord; so be not at all in doubt. To each is a goal to which Allah turns him; then strive together (as in a race) Towards all that is good. Wheresoever ye are, Allah will bring you Together. For Allah Hath power over all things. From whencesoever Thou startest forth, turn Thy face in the direction of the sacred Mosque; that is indeed the truth from the Lord. And Allah is not unmindful of what ye do. So from whencesoever Thou startest forth, turn Thy face in the direction of the sacred Mosque; and wheresoever ye are, Turn your face thither that there be no ground of dispute against you among the people, except those of them that are bent on wickedness; so fear them not, but fear Me; and that I may complete My favours on you, and ye May (consent to) be guided; S. 2142-150
And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith. S. 2191
They ask thee concerning fighting in the Prohibited Month. Say "Fighting therein is a grave (offence); but graver is it in the sight of Allah to prevent access to the path of Allah, to deny Him, to prevent access to the Sacred Mosque, and drive out its members." Tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter. Nor will they cease fighting you until they turn you back from your faith if they can. And if any of you Turn back from their faith and die in unbelief, their works will bear no fruit in this life and in the Hereafter; they will be companions of the Fire and will abide therein. S. 2217
O ye who believe! Violate not the sanctity of the symbols of Allah, nor of the sacred month, nor of the animals brought for sacrifice, nor the garlands that mark out such animals, nor the people resorting to the sacred house, seeking of the bounty and good pleasure of their Lord. But when ye are clear of the sacred precincts and of pilgrim garb, ye may hunt and let not the hatred of some people in (once) shutting you out of the Sacred Mosque lead you to transgression (and hostility on your part). Help ye one another in righteousness and piety, but help ye not one another in sin and rancour fear Allah for Allah is strict in punishment. S. 52
But what plea have they that Allah should not punish them, when they keep out (men) from the sacred Mosque - and they are not its guardians? No men can be its guardians except the righteous; but most of them do not understand. S. 834
How can there be a league, before Allah and His Apostle, with the Pagans, except those with whom ye made a treaty near the sacred Mosque? As long as these stand true to you, stand ye true to them for Allah doth love the righteous. S. 97
Do ye make the giving of drink to pilgrims, or the maintenance of the Sacred Mosque, equal to (the pious service of) those who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and strive with might and main in the cause of Allah? They are not comparable in the sight of Allah and Allah guides not those who do wrong. S. 919
O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque. And if ye fear poverty, soon will Allah enrich you, if He wills, out of His bounty, for Allah is All-knowing, All-wise. S. 928
And there are those who put up A MOSQUE by way of mischief and infidelity - to disunite the Believers - and in preparation for one who warred against Allah and His Apostle aforetime. They will indeed swear that their intention is nothing but good; But Allah doth declare that they are certainly liars. Never stand thou forth therein. There is A MOSQUE whose foundation was laid from the first day on piety; it is more worthy of the standing forth (for prayer) therein. In it are men who love to be purified; and Allah loveth those who make themselves pure. S. 9107-108
Glory to (Allah) Who did take His servant for a Journey by night from the Sacred Mosque to the farthest Mosque, whose precincts We did bless, - in order that We might show him some of Our Signs for He is the One Who heareth and seeth (all things). S. 171
As to those who have rejected (Allah), and would keep back (men) from the Way of Allah, and from the Sacred Mosque, which We have made (open) to (all) men - equal is the dweller there and the visitor from the country - and any whose purpose therein is profanity or wrong-doing - them will We cause to taste of a most Grievous Penalty. Behold! We gave the site, to Abraham, of the (Sacred) House, (saying) "Associate not anything (in worship) with Me; and sanctify My House for those who compass it round, or stand up, or bow, or prostrate themselves (therein in prayer). And proclaim the Pilgrimage among men they will come to thee on foot and (mounted) on every kind of camel, lean on account of journeys through deep and distant mountain highways; That they may witness the benefits (provided) for them, and celebrate the name of Allah, through the Days appointed, over the cattle which He has provided for them (for sacrifice) then eat ye thereof and feed the distressed ones in want. Then let them complete the rites prescribed for them, perform their vows, and (again) circumambulate the Ancient House." Such (is the Pilgrimage) whoever honours the sacred rites of Allah, for him it is good in the Sight of his Lord. Lawful to you (for food in Pilgrimage) are cattle, except those mentioned to you (as exception) but shun the abomination of idols, and shun the word that is false,- S. 2225-30
And complete the Hajj or 'umra in the service of Allah. But if ye are prevented (From completing it), send an offering for sacrifice, such as ye may find, and do not shave your heads until the offering reaches the place of sacrifice. And if any of you is ill, or has an ailment in his scalp, (Necessitating shaving), (He should) in compensation either fast, or feed the poor, or offer sacrifice; and when ye are in peaceful conditions (again), if any one wishes to continue the 'umra on to the hajj, He must make an offering, such as he can afford, but if he cannot afford it, He should fast three days during the hajj and seven days on his return, Making ten days in all. This is for those whose household is not in (the precincts of) the Sacred Mosque. And fear Allah, and know that Allah is strict in punishment. For Hajj are the months well known. If any one undertakes that duty therein, Let there be no obscenity, nor wickedness, nor wrangling in the Hajj. And whatever good ye do, (be sure) Allah knoweth it. And take a provision (With you) for the journey, but the best of provisions is right conduct. So fear Me, o ye that are wise. S. 2196
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Peace Nun de plume,
Why not keep it respectful? A billion Muslims can infer the same about you!
I did keep it respectful if you read what I wrote. I called you intelligent, and if a billion muslims infer the same about me, i.e. I am intelligent, then I will be honored
How do know this? Why does almost every scholar (traditionalist to Qur?an alone) disagree with you?
934 O you who believe, many of the religious scholars and monks consume people's money in falsehood, and they turn away from the path of God. And those who hoard gold and silver, and do not spend it in the cause of God, give them news of a painful retribution.
I don't need a scholar to agree with me, God has given me enough mind, reason, logic, intelligence to understand His message as He has given you, we should be thankful to Him for that . After all, scholars are not going to judge me on the Last Day
No, ENTERING God?s deen is accepting Islam which no one has power to prevent at anytime!
Entering God's deen is not just accepting islam, but implementing/instituting the hearing and obeying also
Why has this been going on for 1400 years?
Ask the pagans who are doing it, and ask God who is giving it a temporary respite in accordance with His sunnah.
How sure are you that it has been going on for 1400 years and not lesser ?364 Say "O people of the Scripture, let us come to a common understanding between us and between you; that we do not serve except God, and do not set up anything at all with Him, and that none of us takes each other as patrons beside God." If they turn away, then Say "Bear witness that we have submitted."
Now if you turn away, I have to say this to you as I have been commanded "bear witness that I have submitted".
1063 So let them serve the Lord of this Al-Bayti.
Which House/Shrine/Temple is the above referring to?
Not the one at Mecca, which I am 100 % sure
Any moron can see the verse above is addressed to O Children of Adam ? to EVERYONE at EVERY MOSQUE/TEMPLE!
Hopefully you see that since you seem to be intelligent!
And any moron can see that if you (being one of the children of Adam) don't take the beautiful things from EVERY Mosque/Temple and thus don't visit EVERY Mosque/Temple in your lifetime to do that (as per your fallacious understanding), then you are disobeying 731
Hopefully you see that since you seem to be intelligent !
Peace
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Peace everyone,
The book provides guidance only for those who are already forethoughtful/"motaqin" (see 22). For those who are not already forethoughtful/"motaqin", they will find every justification in the book to continue their ways. In the same way that sectarians will find justification in the book for following Hadiths, revering some useless stones, killing innocent civilians, etc., etc.
So if you don't inherently feel that there is something not quite right with revering a stone cube and waving at a bunch of stones (if you can't kiss them) then no need to continue reading this. Just go on to Mecca and spin seven times around a stone cube and wave at or kiss the Black Stone and believe that by doing this all your sins will be forgiven and you will return as sinless as a newborn baby. There is nothing that can be said here or anywhere that can help you and everyone here already knows those inherited traditions so you cannot add anything new.
On the other hand, if you feel that there is something not quite right with revering some stones (no matter how "special" then read on.
All the arguments made in defense of so-called Mecca and the so-called Kaaba are nothing more than justifications for people to revere some stones. Those justifications always ignore the obvious truth. The justifications are many on this thread so I will select a few for demonstration purposes.
The arguments for the Masjid to be non physical would only be acceptable if they are supported by reliable contemporary linguistic or archaeological evidence.
Now Abrar seems like an intelligent person. So he must know that linguistically intelligent people (and even those of below average intelligence) regularly say things like "al-masjid Al-Azhar issued a Fatwa" or "al-masjid declared that Ramadan is tomorrow" or "my masjid has a web site". Does he believe that the physical walls and floor and ceiling of a "masjid" are capable of issuing a fatwa or declaring anything or getting a domain name and having a web site? Abrar knows the answer as he would know his own children. He knows that linguistically the word "masjid" is ROUTINELY used to talk about an institution and not merely a physical building. This is the same for many words in our everyday vocabulary such as "government", "court", etc. Nobody (except foolish people) would think that "facing the court" is facing the physical building. Everyone with any intelligence knows that "facing the court" means "facing the institution of justice".
As for archeological evidence, can Abrar give us references to any archeological evidence, manuscripts, inscriptions, etc. that speak of a pre-quranic place named Al-Masjid Al-Haram or Al-Masjid Al-Aqsa or even Mecca? I know he can't. Other people have spent their entire career trying and they failed.
Here is another representative sample of the justifications that are presented
Why has this been going on for 1400 years?
This is like asking "why can winged elephants fly?" You are expected to answer "Because they have wings". The question forgets that there is no evidence of winged elephants in the same way that there is no evidence of a town named Mecca or a shrine called Al-Masjid Al-Haram prior to the mid 8th century CE. The real question is "why has this been going on for 1250 years and not 1400 years?"
As I said, the justifications presented in defense of revering stones are many but all are just as easily dismissed. Also, as I said, people who want to follow Hadith or revere stones will of course justify their ways based on the great reading. However, they are immediately exposed when we try to apply the great reading to the situation at hand. Thus, they will evade answering the many logical problems that arise out of their justifications.
For example, they will never answer how they can face "al-masjid al-haram" wherever they are (in bed, sitting in front of the computer, in the car, etc.). The passage in 2142-150. clearly says "wherever" and doesn't say anything about only while praying.
They will never answer the empirically verifiable fact that if I walk into their mosque or visit them in their house and pray facing some random direction and not the same direction as everyone, they will certainly ask me "what made you turn away from the direction that you were on?". My answer will certainly be "to the god belongs the east and the west (the god is in all directions), he guides whom he wills to a straight path (the straight path is a non-physical direction)".
They will ignore the clear signs telling us where the house/"bayt" is and continue to ask questions like this
Which House/Shrine/Temple is the above referring to?
When the answer is clearly provided in 2226 as- And when we assigned to Ibrahim the house's place THAT DO NOT PARTNER WITH ME A THING, and cleanse my house for the passers by, and the remaining, and the humbly hearing and obeying.
They acknowledge that Mecca has idols and yet continue to take it as the location of the house in defiance of the god's clear command. They claim that having no idols is a kind of theoretical and unachievable "utopia". I am sorry that they feel this way because I don't partner any stones with the god and my house is cleansed from idols so although it is not "utopia", it is more "al-bayt al-haram" than Mecca ever was.
I hope that this helps the forethoughtful people see where they may have been in error so they can correct. As for others, they will probably provide more justifications.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace abrar,
I challenge you to bring me authentic archeological evidence of the existence of a physical building/location by the name of Masjid Al-Aqsa during or before revelation of al-qur'aan.
I also challenge you to bring me authentic archeological evidence of the existence of a physical building/location by the name of Masjid Al-Haram around the present so called Kaaba in Mecca, during or before the revelation of al-qur'aan.
I also challenge you to bring me authentic archeological evidence of the existence of a city by the name of Mecca and a shrine by the name of Kaaba in that city during or before the revelation of al-qur'aan.
Until then, as you yourself said, I won't pay any attention to any other stuff you bring forth except al-qur'aan
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Peace and greetings,
Dear Tanveer,
The archaelogical evidence presented by Israeli and western scholars favour Jerusalem. Muslim researchers favour Mecca. There are plans to demolish the dome of the rock for which Christian and Jewish communities are impatient. New middle East policies are being implemented by Americans to weaken any muslim opposition. You already know the concept presented in 37. The search for the truth of the sacred temple is in progressive or evolutionary stages at present. A time shall come when the physical location of the sacred temple will be evidently manifested by fully clarifying archaeological research. In the mean time we must not impatiently turn the sacred mosque into non physical subject because if we compare and analyse all the contradictory archaeological evidence currently available, we find that the concept of the scared mosque is of a physical nature. The God will only Question us according to the information available to us and not beyond that, because if something is not 100% it is becuase our information is not 100%. We should not invent information according to the way we perceive information while abstaining from reaching absolute conclusions about things that we have little knowledge but must continue to believe honestly up to the level of our information(the theme of 37). An african bushman who never knew about Quran will not be Questioned similar to the way President Bush on the day of Judgemant.
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Peace and greetings,
Dear Aymen,
regularly say things like "al-masjid Al-Azhar issued a Fatwa" or "al-masjid declared that Ramadan is tomorrow" or "my masjid has a web site". Does he believe that the physical walls and floor and ceiling of a "masjid" are capable of issuing a fatwa or declaring anything or getting a domain name and having a web site?
In the above context the people related to custody or authority of the physical mosque are referring to the whole collective unity as al-masjid. Such language is also used in political articles in newspapers like washington issued a statement against Tehran. Riyadh cracking down on terrorists. It does not mean that these capitals do not have a physical existance, but is a linguistic style of a classical political language. Your flawed argument lacks any logic. If I tell a person to use his head, would he do it literally.(Chemical reactions in nervous system do take place when we think). Bang his head, vibrate it or just physically move it. How absurd and illogical.
brickwall ??? angel
"........Washington and Tehran have severed diplomatic relations since Iranian students stormed in 1979 the U.S. Embassy in Tehran and held its occupants hostage for ..."
http//english.peopledaily.com.cn/200609/22/eng20060922_305160.html
"Are Washington's Efforts To Promote Democracy Bearing Fruit?"
http//rfe.rferl.org/featuresarticle/2005/03/3fb339c6-f0b5-44df-9fd4-27939ed3f4b5.html
"Tehran defiant over Israel slur"
http//www.guardian.co.uk/iran/story/0,12858,1602769,00.html
"But sources on Capitol Hill say that unless Riyadh takes further steps to crack down on Saudis believed to be financing terrorists, Congress may move to ..."
http//www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1003833,00.html
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Peace
If I tell a person to use his head, would he do it literally.
Depends on the situation I suppose. Let's say it were a boxing match and you were up to your last straws and decided to use you head to injure your opponent, albiet illegally. In my opinion these statements cannot necessarily be restricted to one's own and usual intents of the term. Sometimes the physical realities are merely the bodies which clothe the ideals or deeper meanings.
Joe
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Peace Abrar,
The archaelogical evidence presented by Israeli and western scholars favour Jerusalem. Muslim researchers favour Mecca.
Can you tell us about this archeological evidence that Israeli and Western scholars use to show that "al-masjid al-haram" is in Jerusalem? As far as I know they are not even looking for anything such as "al-masjid al-haram". Some are looking for Solomon's temple, while most level headed researchers know that such temple is nothing but a legend. Even the great reading never mentions that Solomon has a "temple".
Can you also tell us about this archeological evidence that Muslim "scholars" use to show that "al-masjid al-haram" is in Mecca? I know you can't. So stop making those baseless statements that you casually make without providing any references. There is no archeological evidence for a pre-quranic town named Mecca, let alone something called "al-masjid al-haram" in it.
Your flawed argument lacks any logic. If I tell a person to use his head, would he do it literally.(Chemical reactions in nervous system do take place when we think). Bang his head, vibrate it or just physically move it. How absurd and illogical.
Tell this to yourself. You are the one who thinks that "al-masjid al-haram" meaning can only have a superfifical physical meaning. If you apply your understanding to "use your head", you will indeed bang your head because all you see is the superficial physical meaning. Why do you believe that the god is only concerned with the superficial physical aspect and is incapable of using intelligent deeper meanings?
Again, these are all excuses and justifications for idolizing stones and they have nothing to do with the great reading or with logic.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace and greetings,
Dear Aymen,
Can you also tell us about this archeological evidence that Muslim "scholars" use to show that "al-masjid al-haram" is in Mecca?
The case presented by the muslim researchers is below.
Location Of Makkah
Makkah is at the intersection of latitude 21 to 25 degree north and longitude 39 to 49 degree east. It is set in a rugged landscape consisting mostly of solid granite, with rocks sometimes reaching 300 meters (1,000 feet) above see level.
Makkah is enclosed by the Valley of Abraham, which is surrounded by two nearby mountain ranges to the east, west and south. The northern range comprises the Al-Falaq and Qu'aqi'an mountains, while the southern range consists of Abu Hudaidah mountain to the west, Kuday to the south and Abu Qubais and Khindimah to the south-east.
There are three main entrances to Makkah Al-Mu'allat (also known as Al-Huj?n), Al-Musfalah and Al-Shubaikah.
It is generally agreed that Al-Mu'allat includes all areas which are higher than the Haram and Al-Musfalah covers all areas that are lowers.
Ka'bah & Makkah In History
Edward Gibbon writes about the Ka'bah and its existence before the Christian era in his book
..... of blind mythology of barbarians - of the local deities, of the stars, the air, and the earth, of their sex or titles, their attributes or subordination. Each tribe, each family, each independent warrier, created and changed the rites and the object of this fantastic worship; but the nation, in every age, has bowed to the religion as well as to the language of Mecca. The genuine antiquity of Caaba ascends beyond the Christian era in describing the coast of the Red sea the Greek historian Diodorus has remarked, between the Thamudites and the Sabeans, a famous temple, whose superior sanctity was revered by all the Arabians; the linen of silken veil, which is annually renewed by the Turkish emperor, was first offered by the Homerites, who reigned seven hundred years before the time of Mohammad.
Diodorus Siculus was a Greek historian of 1st century BC who wrote Bibliotheca Historica, a book describing various parts of the discovered world. The following lines are the English translation of Greek quoted by Gibbon from the book of Diodorus Siculus (Diodorus of Sicily) describing the 'temple' considered to be the the holiest in the whole of Arabia.
And a temple has been set-up there, which is very holy and exceedingly revered by all Arabians.
It is interesting to know that Claudius Ptolemy of Alexandria, mathematician and astronomer, flourishing about a century after Pliny, undertook to make an atlas of the habitable world. He was not a descriptive geographer, and his book was intended to be no more than a commentary on his maps. He enumerated some hundred and fourteen cities or villages in Arabia Felix.
For example, Dumaetha, placed by Ptolemy just outside the northern boundary of Arabia Felix, must be the mediaeval Arabian Daumet, which is today the chief village of the great oasis of Jauf. Hejr, famous in the "times of ignorance" as the seat of a kingdom, and now Medayin Salih, is Ptolemy's Egra. His Thaim is Teima, now known for its inscriptions to have had temples and some sort of civilization as far back as 500 BC. It is the Tema of Job. In Lathrippa, placed inland from Iambia (Yambo), we recognize the Iathrippa of Stephan of Byzantium, the Yathrib of the early Arab traditions, now honoured as El Medina, the City of Cities.
Apart from this a place called Macoraba is also shown which is identified as Mecca (please refer to the map facing page 17 of reference ). G E von Grunebaum says
Mecca is mentioned by Ptolemy, and the name he gives it allows us to identify it as a South Arabian foundation created around a sanctuary.
Makkah In The Scriptures
The Qur'?n talks about Bakkah (the older name of Makkah) being the first house of worship appointed for mankind. It also addresses this place as Umm ul-Qur? i.e., Mother of the Settlements.
Verily, the first House (of worship) appointed for mankind was that at Bakkah (Makkah), full of blessing, and a guidance for Al-'Alamin (the mankind and jinns). In it are manifest signs (for example), the Maqam (place) of Ibrahim (Abraham); whosoever enters it, he attains security. And Hajj (pilgrimage to Makkah) to the House (Ka'bah) is a duty that mankind owes to Allah, those who can afford the expenses (for one's conveyance, provision and residence); and whoever disbelieves , then Allah stands not in need of any of the 'Alamin (mankind and jinns).
The Bible also mentions about the valley of Baca in connection with the pilgrimage. Below is the quote from Psalms 84 (NIV)
1 How lovely is your dwelling place, O LORD Almighty!
2 My soul yearns, even faints, for the courts of the LORD; my heart and my flesh cry out for the living God.
3 Even the sparrow has found a home, and the swallow a nest for herself, where she may have her young-- a place near your altar, O LORD Almighty, my King and my God.
4 Blessed are those who dwell in your house; they are ever praising you.
5 Blessed are those whose strength is in you, who have set their hearts on pilgrimage.
6 As they pass through the Valley of Baca, they make it a place of springs; the autumn rains also cover it with pools.
7 They go from strength to strength, till each appears before God in Zion.
8 Hear my prayer, O LORD God Almighty; listen to me, O God of Jacob.
9 Look upon our shield, O God; look with favor on your anointed one.
10 Better is one day in your courts than a thousand elsewhere; I would rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God than dwell in the tents of the wicked.
11 For the LORD God is a sun and shield; the LORD bestows favor and honor; no good thing does he withhold from those whose walk is blameless.
12 O LORD Almighty, blessed is the man who trusts in you.The interpretation of the valley of Baca in the The Jewish Encylopedia is quite interesting, though it does not provide a complete evidence and leaves the reader with a suggestion. Below is the full quote.
Baca, The Valley Of A valley mentioned in Psalms LXXXIV7. Since it is there said that pilgrims transform the valley into a land of wells, an old translators gave to Baca, the meaning of a "valley of weeping"; but it signifies rather any valley lacking water. Support for this latter view is to be found in II Samuel V23 et seq.; I Chronicles XIV14 et seq., in which the plural form of the same word designates a tree similar to the balsam tree; and it was supposed that a dry valley could be named after this tree. Konig takes Baca from the Arabian Baka'a, and translates it "lack of streams". The Psalmist apparently has in mind a particular valley whose natural condition led him to adopt its name.
The translation of Arabian Baka'a as "lack of stream" seems to throw some light on the nature of the valley before the appearance of the stream of Zam-Zam near Ka'bah which was a dry place with no vegetation whatsoever.
The Anchor Bible Dictionary does not throw any light on it, albeit, there are some suggestions in it too like the The Jewish Encylopedia. Below is the full quote.
Baca, The Valley Of (PLACE) , The valley of Baca (Psalms 841) is either a historical place name or a symbolical expression for "deep sorrow". The first part of Psalms 846 seems to mean that by "passing through the experience of deep sorrow, righteous ones can make it the source of life." The Septuagint translated the phrase into Greek as "the valley of weeping". The word 'emeq "valley" has the root meaning of "deep", so the expression may mean "deep sorrow".
However, some have considered it as the "valley of the balsam tree" from the same word in plural form found in 2 Samuel 524. This is based on the assumption that baka may be a "gum-exuding tree". Another possibility is that the word beka'im (plural of baka) may mean "weeping wall-rocks" in the valley of Rephaim on whose tops David and his troops were waiting for the coming of the Philistine army passing through the valley below (2 Samuel 524). It seems safe to seek the meaning of baka in relation to the dripping water, since we often find this word in the names related to rivers and wadis, such as Wadi al-Baka in the Sinaitic district and Baca on the wadi in the central Galilee area, W of Meroth. It is also possible to understand beka'im as the place of "weepings" of the Philistine army for their defeat by David. After all these considerations, the expression of "valley of baka" can best be taken as a symbolic expression "weeping" or "deep sorrow" which fits well in the context of Psalms 846.
The interpretation of the valley of Baca as a "the valley of weeping" makes sense because of the distress which Hagar(P) underwent when she was left with Ishmael(P) in the barren desert with no means of living.
The two interpretations of Baca, viz., "lack of stream" and "the valley of weeping" appears to fit in the context of pilgrimage to Bakkah, the older name of Makkah where the Ka'bah is situated. Ka'bah has been a place of reverence by all Arabians before the Christian era as we have seen earlier.
And Allah knows best!
Islamic Awareness History Ka'bah As A Place Of Worship In The History
References
Edward Gibbon (Introduction by Christopher Dawson), Gibbon's Decline And Fall Of The Roman Empire, Volume V, Everyman's Library, London, pp. 223-224.
Translated by C H Oldfather, Diodorus Of Sicily, Volume II, William Heinemann Ltd., London & Harvard University Press, Cambridge, Massachusetts, MCMXXXV, p. 217.
D G Hogarth, The Penetration Of Arabia, Alston Rivers Limited, London, 1905, p. 18.
G E Von Grunebaum, Classical Islam A History 600-1258, George Allen & Unwin Limited, 1970, p. 19.
The Jewish Encylopedia, Volume II, Funk & Wagnalls Company, MDCCCCII, p. 415.
http//www.islamic-awareness.org/History/kaaba.html
Can you tell us about this archeological evidence that Israeli and Western scholars use to show that "al-masjid al-haram" is in Jerusalem?
Below is an article giving an insight into non muslim archaeological evidence.
Mecca
According to the Qur?an, Mecca was the first and most important city in the world. Adam placed the black stone in the original Ka?ba (sanctuary) there, while Abraham and Ishmael rebuilt the Meccan Ka?ba centuries later (Sura 2125-127). Mecca was allegedly the centre of Arabian trading routes before Muhammad?s time.
Yet there is no archeological corroboration for this. Such a great ancient city would surely have received a mention in ancient history. However, the earliest reference to Mecca as a city is in the Continuato Byzantia Arabica, an 8th century document. Mecca is certainly not on the natural overland trade routes- it is a barren valley requiring a one hundred mile detour. Moreover, there was only maritime Graeco-Roman trade with India after the first century, controlled by the Ethiopian Red Sea port Adulis, not by the Arabs. If Mecca was not even a viable city, let alone a great commercial centre until after Muhammad?s time, the Qur?an is seriously in doubt.
Archaeology
Qibla
According to the Qur?an, the direction of prayer (Qibla) was canonized towards Mecca for all Muslims circa 624 AD, two years after the Hijra (see Sura 2144, 149-50). Yet the earliest archaeological evidence from mosques built at the beginning of the 8th century suggests their sanctuary was located a long way north of Mecca, closer to the vicinity of Jerusalem.
The Qibla of the first mosque in Kufa, Iraq, constructed in 670 AD, pointed west instead of due south. Likewise, floor plans from two later Umayyad (650-750 AD) mosques in Iraq, demonstrate their Qiblas were oriented too far north. The Wasit mosque is off by 33 degrees, the Baghdad mosque by 30 degrees. The ?Amr b. al ?As mosque near Cairo, again pointed too far north and had to be corrected under a later governor.
Jacob of Odessa, a Christian writer and traveller, was a contemporary eye-witness writing in Egypt around 705 AD. His letter in the British Museum maintains the ?Mahgraye? (Greek term for Arabs) in Egypt prayed facing east, towards their Ka?ba, the place of their patriarchal origin- in other words towards Palestine, not Mecca.
Thus the evidence points to a sanctuary located not in Mecca, but in northern Arabia or even Jerusalem, until the early 8th century. It cannot be that the early Muslims wrongly estimated the direction of Mecca. They were desert traders and caravaners, adept at travelling by the stars. How else did they perform the obligatory Hajj, which was also canonized at this time? There is a serious discrepancy between the Qur?an and modern archaeology. Crucially, Walid I, who reigned as Caliph between 705 and 715, wrote to all the regions ordering the demolition and enlargement of all mosques. Could it be the Qibla only then shifted to Mecca?
Dome of the Rock
A possible answer as to why early mosques face towards Palestine is found in JerusalemIn the city centre lies the ?Dome of the Rock?, an imposing structure built by ?Abd al-Malik in 691 AD. It is considered the third holiest site in Islam, after Mecca and Medina. It seems to have been intended as a sanctuary rather than a mosque, as there is no Qibla and its octagonal design indicates it was used for circumambulation. Muslims believe it commemorates the Mi?raj, the night Muhammad went up into heaven to speak to Allah and Moses regarding the number of prayers required of believers.
Yet the inscriptions on the walls of the building say nothing of the Mi?raj but are polemical qur?anic quotations, aimed primarily at Christians. Perhaps this imposing building was built instead as the early sanctuary of Islam, before the adoption of Mecca. This is logical given Muhammad?s intention to reclaim the land of his birthright.
Certainly Muslim tradition suggests the Dome of the Rock may have been the early religious centre for Islam. The caliph Suleyman, who reigned up to 717 AD, went to Mecca to ask about the Hajj. He was not satisfied with the reply, and chose instead to follow ?Abd al-Malik, travelling to the Dome of the Rock.
Could it be that the Qiblas of the early mosques were aligned to the Dome of the Rock until the edict of Walid I in the early 8th century?
http//isaalmasih.net/archaeology-isa/quran-archaeology.html
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Peace and greetings,
Archaeology and the History of Early Islam The First Seventy Years
is an archaelogical research journal being sold for $32 at
https//www.springerlink.com/content/4frjm67v7x2ycdjd/resource-secured/?target=fulltext.pdf
I have not bought the research paper but the abstract from the Journal which is a 1.4 MB pdf file of 411-436 pages is given below
Jeremy Johns
Abstract The rarity of material evidence for the religion of Islam during the first seventy years of the hijra (622-92 CE) has been used to attack the traditional positivist account of the rise of Islam. However, the earliest declarations of Islam are to be found on media produced by the early Islamic state. It is therefore mistake to read too much significance into the absence of such declarations prior to the formation of that state by Abd al-Malik (685-705 CE). There is little prospect that archaeology will uncover new evidence of Islam from the first seventy years.
Archaeology and the History of Early Islam The First Seventy Years
Journal Journal of the Economic and Social History of the Orient
Publisher Brill Academic Publishers
ISSN 0022-4995 (Print) 1568-5209 (Online)
Subject Humanities, Social Sciences and Law
Issue Volume 46, Number 4 / December, 2003
DOI 10.1163/156852003772914848
Pages 411-436
SpringerLink Date Friday, November 12, 2004http//www.springerlink.com/content/4frjm67v7x2ycdjd/?p=9658db3b885a4911ba2941721870e9e7&pi=0
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Peace Abrar and everyone,
The rarity of material evidence for the religion of Islam during the first seventy years of the hijra (622-92 CE) has been used to attack the traditional positivist account of the rise of Islam.
This is false. There is no more "rarity of material evidence" during 622-92 than during the prior 70 years or the following 70 years. It is just that none of the evidence supports the traditional accounts. So there is not a rarity but a complete lack of evidence that supports the traditional accounts. So if you are trying to support the traditional accounts, indeed it will seem like there is a rarity or complete lack of evidence. On the other hand, if you are trying to get a true picture of what really happened, there is plenty of evidence.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Abrar and everyone,
The case presented by the muslim researchers is below.
Location Of Makkah
Makkah is at the intersection of latitude 21 to 25 degree north and longitude 39 to 49 degree east. It is set in a rugged landscape consisting mostly of solid granite, with rocks sometimes reaching 300 meters (1,000 feet) above see level.
Makkah is enclosed by the Valley of Abraham, which is surrounded by two nearby mountain ranges to the east, west and south. The northern range comprises the Al-Falaq and Qu'aqi'an mountains, while the southern range consists of Abu Hudaidah mountain to the west, Kuday to the south and Abu Qubais and Khindimah to the south-east.
There are three main entrances to Makkah Al-Mu'allat (also known as Al-Huj?n), Al-Musfalah and Al-Shubaikah.
It is generally agreed that Al-Mu'allat includes all areas which are higher than the Haram and Al-Musfalah covers all areas that are lowers.This is not evidence. Anyone can call a valley "the Valley of Abraham" in the same way that anyone can make up a saying and put "the prophet said" in front of it. It is a fact that such valley is never mentioned in any pre-quranic inscription or manuscripts. Surely, the people of the book would have heard about this valley named after their prophet. Yet we hear nothing from the people of the book about this valley or about Mecca itself. The above is just a typical example of hanging at straws to justify idolizing some stones.
Ka'bah & Makkah In History
Edward Gibbon writes about the Ka'bah and its existence before the Christian era in his bookWhy is it that everyone who claims to bring archeological evidence quotes Edward Gibbon? Don't you have anything else other than Gibbon's nonsense (as I will demonstrate below)?
..... of blind mythology of barbarians - of the local deities, of the stars, the air, and the earth, of their sex or titles, their attributes or subordination. Each tribe, each family, each independent warrier, created and changed the rites and the object of this fantastic worship; but the nation, in every age, has bowed to the religion as well as to the language of Mecca. The genuine antiquity of Caaba ascends beyond the Christian era in describing the coast of the Red sea the Greek historian Diodorus has remarked, between the Thamudites and the Sabeans, a famous temple, whose superior sanctity was revered by all the Arabians; the linen of silken veil, which is annually renewed by the Turkish emperor, was first offered by the Homerites, who reigned seven hundred years before the time of Mohammad.
Diodorus Siculus was a Greek historian of 1st century BC who wrote Bibliotheca Historica, a book describing various parts of the discovered world. The following lines are the English translation of Greek quoted by Gibbon from the book of Diodorus Siculus (Diodorus of Sicily) describing the 'temple' considered to be the the holiest in the whole of Arabia.
And a temple has been set-up there, which is very holy and exceedingly revered by all Arabians.Diodorus Siculus lived in the 1st century BCE so perhaps Abrar can answer the following questions
- How did Diodorus Siculus mention in his remark the Turkish Empire, which didn't even exist until at least 1400 years later!?
- How did Diodorus Siculus mention in his remark Mohammad who lived 700 years later!?
Perhaps Abrar thinks that Diodorus Siculus had foreknowledge of the future or perhaps he didn't read properly what he blindly copied because he was obsessed with getting any information (true or not) to justify idolizing some stones. This is why the only people who believe such falsehood are people who are equally as eager to justify their blatant idolization of some stones.
The fact is that Diodorus Siculus doesn't mention the name Mecca at all or Kaaba. He only mentions a temple in Arabia. He gives its location as somewhere between the THAMUDITES AND THE SABEANS. This would most likely be the magnificient temple at Teima that was famous all over the ancient world and is well documented in the archeological record.
It is interesting to know that Claudius Ptolemy of Alexandria, mathematician and astronomer, flourishing about a century after Pliny, undertook to make an atlas of the habitable world. He was not a descriptive geographer, and his book was intended to be no more than a commentary on his maps. He enumerated some hundred and fourteen cities or villages in Arabia Felix.
For example, Dumaetha, placed by Ptolemy just outside the northern boundary of Arabia Felix, must be the mediaeval Arabian Daumet, which is today the chief village of the great oasis of Jauf. Hejr, famous in the "times of ignorance" as the seat of a kingdom, and now Medayin Salih, is Ptolemy's Egra. His Thaim is Teima, now known for its inscriptions to have had temples and some sort of civilization as far back as 500 BC. It is the Tema of Job. In Lathrippa, placed inland from Iambia (Yambo), we recognize the Iathrippa of Stephan of Byzantium, the Yathrib of the early Arab traditions, now honoured as El Medina, the City of Cities.
Apart from this a place called Macoraba is also shown which is identified as Mecca (please refer to the map facing page 17 of reference ). G E von Grunebaum says
Mecca is mentioned by Ptolemy, and the name he gives it allows us to identify it as a South Arabian foundation created around a sanctuary.Aaah... Macoraba. The only reason why Abrar hangs on to the false straw of Macoraba is that he knows very well that there is no evidence for Mecca. It is ironic that he quotes Ptolemy's reference to Macroba when in fact linguistically and geographically, this actually further discredits the historicity of Mecca.
Linguistically, it is pathetic to see some people juggle the English spelling of those names to try to bring them closer. Of course, the English comparison is completely useless. In order to compare the names in terms of closeness, we need to examine the words as they would have been originally written in Arabic. When we do this, we see that in Arabic the Kaf, Raa, and Baa are in fact the strong consonants that form the root of Macoraba. On the other hand, the Mim and presumably a final Taa Marbuta would have been weak letters that are added to the root. So the root would be KRB and this is completely different from the root MKK from which the town name Makka is derived. So linguistically there is no basis for the names being related.
Geographically, notice how the most crucial information is eliminated in Mecca's obstinate defender apologetic thesis. He mentions Iathrippa and then Macoraba but deliberetly neglects to mention that Ptolemy identified five more towns beween Iathrippa and Macoraba (he was going from north to south)
"Iathrippa 71 40 East 23 20 North
**
Macoraba 73 20 East 22 North"The reason why those defending their emotional attachment to the stone idols in Mecca don't tell us about those "5 more names" is that it exposes their falsehood. Ptolemy described Macoraba, not as the next city south of Iathrippa, but the sixth city to the south. The first of those names is the city of Carna in Southern Arabia. So while Macoraba is the sixth city to the south, the city of Carna is the first city to the south of Iathrippa. Thus, Ptolemy places Macoraba south of Carna. Present day Mecca on the other hand is North of Carna. So according to Ptolemy's work, it is impossible for Macoraba to be present day Mecca.
Makkah In The Scriptures
The Qur'?n talks about Bakkah (the older name of Makkah) being the first house of worship appointed for mankind. It also addresses this place as Umm ul-Qur? i.e., Mother of the Settlements.
Verily, the first House (of worship) appointed for mankind was that at Bakkah (Makkah), full of blessing, and a guidance for Al-'Alamin (the mankind and jinns). In it are manifest signs (for example), the Maqam (place) of Ibrahim (Abraham); whosoever enters it, he attains security. And Hajj (pilgrimage to Makkah) to the House (Ka'bah) is a duty that mankind owes to Allah, those who can afford the expenses (for one's conveyance, provision and residence); and whoever disbelieves , then Allah stands not in need of any of the 'Alamin (mankind and jinns).Mecca is not Becca and the god doesn't make typos.
The Bible also mentions about the valley of Baca in connection with the pilgrimage. Below is the quote from Psalms 84 (NIV)
...
The two interpretations of Baca, viz., "lack of stream" and "the valley of weeping" appears to fit in the context of pilgrimage to Bakkah, the older name of Makkah where the Ka'bah is situated. Ka'bah has been a place of reverence by all Arabians before the Christian era as we have seen earlier.None of the people of the book says that Becca is Mecca and some don't even take Becca as a physical place at all but as a metaphor for deep sorrow. So this actually further discredits Mecca.
According to the Qur?an, Mecca was the first and most important city in the world. Adam placed the black stone in the original Ka?ba (sanctuary) there, while Abraham and Ishmael rebuilt the Meccan Ka?ba centuries later (Sura 2125-127). Mecca was allegedly the centre of Arabian trading routes before Muhammad?s time.
These are all lies. The great reading never mentions any of this. All that this demonstrates is that those who like idolizing stones will do anything, including present lies about the god to justify their ways.
Yet there is no archeological corroboration for this. Such a great ancient city would surely have received a mention in ancient history. However, the earliest reference to Mecca as a city is in the Continuato Byzantia Arabica, an 8th century document. Mecca is certainly not on the natural overland trade routes- it is a barren valley requiring a one hundred mile detour. Moreover, there was only maritime Graeco-Roman trade with India after the first century, controlled by the Ethiopian Red Sea port Adulis, not by the Arabs. If Mecca was not even a viable city, let alone a great commercial centre until after Muhammad?s time, the Qur?an is seriously in doubt.
Again, those who idolize stones will put the great reading in serious doubt instead of accepting the obvious fact that it is their deliberate misinterpretation of the great reading to justify idolizing stones that is in serious doubt.
According to the Qur?an, the direction of prayer (Qibla) was canonized towards Mecca for all Muslims circa 624 AD, two years after the Hijra (see Sura 2144, 149-50). Yet the earliest archaeological evidence from mosques built at the beginning of the 8th century suggests their sanctuary was located a long way north of Mecca, closer to the vicinity of Jerusalem.
The Qibla of the first mosque in Kufa, Iraq, constructed in 670 AD, pointed west instead of due south. Likewise, floor plans from two later Umayyad (650-750 AD) mosques in Iraq, demonstrate their Qiblas were oriented too far north. The Wasit mosque is off by 33 degrees, the Baghdad mosque by 30 degrees. The ?Amr b. al ?As mosque near Cairo, again pointed too far north and had to be corrected under a later governor.
Jacob of Odessa, a Christian writer and traveller, was a contemporary eye-witness writing in Egypt around 705 AD. His letter in the British Museum maintains the ?Mahgraye? (Greek term for Arabs) in Egypt prayed facing east, towards their Ka?ba, the place of their patriarchal origin- in other words towards Palestine, not Mecca.
Thus the evidence points to a sanctuary located not in Mecca, but in northern Arabia or even Jerusalem, until the early 8th century. It cannot be that the early Muslims wrongly estimated the direction of Mecca. They were desert traders and caravaners, adept at travelling by the stars. How else did they perform the obligatory Hajj, which was also canonized at this time? There is a serious discrepancy between the Qur?an and modern archaeology.There is no discrepency between the great reading and modern archeology. The discrepency is between archeology and the interpretations of those who seek to justify idolizing stones. Again, Abrar prefers to quote material that casts doubt on the great reading instead of casting doubt on his interpretation of the great reading that is biased towards idolizing stones.
Peace,
Ayman
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I also challenge you to bring me authentic archeological evidence of the existence of a physical building/location by the name of Masjid Al-Haram around the present so called Kaaba in Mecca, during or before the revelation of al-qur'aan.
Masjid Al-Haram = The Restricted/Forbidden Mosque
Well since Titus destruction of the "Beyth Elohym" in Jerusalem. (70 AD)
The Jews has called the Temple Mount area in Jerusalem as "Restricted/Forbidden Place".
And they believe that only a "Jewish Mossiach" will rebuild the temple... which then the place will not be "Forbidden" anymore..Salam