Criticism of Mecca and Kaaba
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The greatest problem faced by Quran only muslims is that they are trying to translate the Quran according to their individual inclinations towards logic and personal tendencies. There is a growing habit of mixing up metaphorical and literal meanings according to personal preferences.
ZProblem? It seems to me to be a blessing, unless of course you like such dishonest and distorted things to be said about God's prophet and messenger.
The ones who follow the illiterate messenger and the prophet whom they find written in their Torah and Gospel?? (7/157)
Problem?
Don't think so...
1317 He sent down water from the sky, so valleys flowed according to their capacity, and the flood produces foam. And from what they burn to smelt jewellery or goods is produced a similar foam. It is in such a manor that God strikes the falsehood with the truth. As for the foam, it passes away, and as for what benefits the people, it remains in the Earth. It is such that God puts forth the examples.
Peace...
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Peace and greetings,
The greatest problem faced by Quran only muslims is that they are trying to translate the Quran according to their individual inclinations towards logic and personal tendencies. There is a growing habit of mixing up metaphorical and literal meanings according to personal preferences. They have stereotyped the arabic sources as a hypocricy of shia, sunni arabs. There is little agreement on appropriate meanings of Quranic words between them. So the reliability, credibility and trustworthiness of the classical Arabic language is reduced to personal preference. Where do we go from here? To a multilingual classical arabic with so many different directions that an outsider would interprete us as people playing games with the classical arabic language. My advise to all people interested in Classical Arabic root words and derivations is that find out the most authentic translations of the Quran and keep a good collection of both modern arabic and classical arabic dictionaries. Do not stereotype arabs as hypocrites, but keep within the limits of diffrent synonyms defined by reliable arabic sources. Aquire a great deal of knowledge in science, philosophy, sociology, psychology, history, linguistics both arabic and english before forming criteria for literal and metaphorical meanings which require a great deal of knowledge than passion of logic. Do not impatiently form meanings according to your passion for logic, discuss with knowlegable people to get reliable ideas before reaching a conclusion.
No, the greatest problem with Quran alone muslims is that they follow the quran instead of the truth.
There is a difference between saying that "the quran is the truth" and saying "the truth is the quran." The problem arises when people adhere to the latter.
People have abadoned reason and logic to follow what they think is God's word. That is the problem.
See, the truth is always the same. The truth never changes. So if we were all following the truth, we would all pretty much agree with eachother. But we don't.When you criticize something, and give logical and empirical evidence against a certain belief, you are blamed for folllowing "your flawed logic" and "you sensibilities."
If everyone used reason and logic to arrive at a certain interpretation or translation of the quran, there would be no wrong translation. Instead that's not what people do. They use tradition and blind belief to reach conclusions.
Would anyone believe in invisible beings and holy black cubes if everyone used reason and logic? NO.wake up and smell the coffee, people.
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Peace "phoenix",
If everyone used reason and logic to arrive at a certain interpretation or translation of the quran, there would be no wrong translation. Instead that's not what people do. They use tradition and blind belief to reach conclusions.
JK- Absolutely thts where the problem lies.
Would anyone believe in invisible beings and holy black cubes if everyone used reason and logic? NO.
wake up and smell the coffee, people.
JK- The holy black cube is ofcourse causing a lot of problems but by invisible beings you are perhaps referring to jinn. Those could be aliens. At the moment that seems to be the most reasonable explanation to me. GOD Bless!
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peace JK
I would have no problem accepting the "alien" idea but "alien" doesn't fit the quran's verses (Adam was talking to an alien in paradise?). I think Ayman's article explained what jinn are. It is our thoughts and emotions that whisper to us and make us do things, not invisible beings from outerspace.
Aliens, plasma beings, angels cannot be believed in because there is no evidence (none whatsoever) supporting their existence.We cannot believe in whatever we want to. We have to look at what makes sense and what is supported by evidence.
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Peece "phoenix1",
peace JK
I would have no problem accepting the "alien" idea but "alien" doesn't fit the quran's verses (Adam was talking to an alien in paradise?). I think Ayman's article explained what jinn are. It is our thoughts and emotions that whisper to us and make us do things, not invisible beings from outerspace.
Aliens, plasma beings, angels cannot be believed in because there is no evidence (none whatsoever) supporting their existence.We cannot believe in whatever we want to. We have to look at what makes sense and what is supported by evidence.
JK- But there is evidence, if but little, that there maybe life on other planets. A new telescope has now been launched into outer space for undisturbed 24 hr study which cldnt have been done from earth. The idea of aliens is very probable and it also makes sense in the Quranic context, infact much more than the emotional stuff. The laws are the same throughout the known universe and hence life could very well have evolved on other planets. This is totally inline wih science i.e. inference in this case. And yes Adam cldve been talking to one of those aliens and solomon was infact using them for various purposes. GOD Bless!
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peace JK,
Although I don't want to be debating this on this thread, I cannot agree with you because there is wayy too much conjecture involved.
Just think, 1400 years ago (when the quran was written), people did not have telescopes or any other equipment to detect the presence of plasma beings or aliens. Why would the quran talk about that, when people obviously would not understand a word of what it meant by jinn.
What whispers to us? what tempts us with wordly things? aliens? I don't think so.
There is a much simpler and VERIFIABLE explanation.
If you want to discuss this, we'll go to another thread. -
Peace "phoenix",
peace JK,
Although I don't want to be debating this on this thread, I cannot agree with you because there is wayy too much conjecture involved.
Just think, 1400 years ago (when the quran was written), people did not have telescopes or any other equipment to detect the presence of plasma beings or aliens. Why would the quran talk about that, when people obviously would not understand a word of what it meant by jinn.
What whispers to us? what tempts us with wordly things? aliens? I don't think so.
There is a much simpler and VERIFIABLE explanation.
If you want to discuss this, we'll go to another thread.JK- The Quran is supposed to be for all time. Thats excatly why GOD mentioned 37, there are verse which only a later generation may understand. The Quran slso talks abt evolution and the big bang in 2130, who back then knew abt tht? Ofcourse no one and this adds further proof tht the Quran is not man made. As for your claimed "simpler" explanations, no there aint. The emoion stuff just doesnt add up if we consider all verses in regardsto Jinn like the ones i mentioned, also them stating tht they too can be both righteous and unrighteous. GOD Bless!
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peace JK,
It's just that I don't think the quran talks about big bang or relativity or aliens. It has to be something else. Or at least the science and codes is not important to it's message. And I also don't think 37 is talking about the quran (al kitab is not the same as quran). I also think that taking "jinn" as just a description (hidden) or taking it as our hidden side makes perfect sense.
We can disagree, there is nothing wrong with that. But our understandings should be verified and supported by evidence. -
to be honest i myself dont understand much! -)
...i mean i dont see why god created us...and i am being honest..i dont see the logic behind it! -)
Well think if God created us just to serve him!!!
Think if we humans are some bricks in a game that God created
He created us with a free will, only or because we could then choose the path we wanted to take. No matter if the path is good or bad.I feel like this life on earth is some kind og strategy game the kids use to play but much bigger and serious because of the alive people in this game.
Peace Maria
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Peace "phoenix",
peace JK,
It's just that I don't think the quran talks about big bang or relativity or aliens. It has to be something else. Or at least the science and codes is not important to it's message.JK- I dont get it? 2130 was one such verse the Mullahs wernr biased towards hence even before the discovery we cn see similar translations all over. And after all there has to be proof inside the Quran for its authenticity. Infact when i read the Quran as a 12 yr old it was tht very verse which convinced me of the Quran's authenticity. If it hadnt been there i might have lost interest in the Quran and become somethng else now. The thing is GOD before giving us a message first wants to make sure we recognize that the message is authentic from Him and not man made. Hence the need for such scientific foreknowledge and also the mathematical code providing additional evidence to our generation. Once we have that only then can we focus on the message and try to comprehend it.
And I also don't think 37 is talking about the quran (al kitab is not the same as quran). I also think that taking "jinn" as just a description (hidden) or taking it as our hidden side makes perfect sense.
We can disagree, there is nothing wrong with that. But our understandings should be verified and supported by evidence.JK- Yes the meaning of "al-kitab" has to be deduced from the context. If you read from 33 youll understand that GOD is talking about revealed scriptures here(nazala 'alaika) and this is also repeated in 37. It makes perfect sense also. The meanings of many verses in the Quran are understood only in a certain time. Ive come to the conclusion that this muhkam and mutashaabihah is a continuous switch. Verses which maybe mukam today may also become mutashaabihah again tomorrow and vice versa. Ultimately it maybe that the humans would understand them all at one time. This is still possible. GOD Bless!
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Peace JK,
what you said is OK except...
Infact when i read the Quran as a 12 yr old it was tht very verse which convinced me of the Quran's authenticity. If it hadnt been there i might have lost interest in the Quran and become somethng else now.
What is the authenticity of the Quran? As I see it, the quran is either true or false. One verse cannot tell us that.
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Peace "phoenix",
Peace JK,
what you said is OK except...What is the authenticity of the Quran? As I see it, the quran is either true or false. One verse cannot tell us that.
JK- I agree but it certainly increases the probability of the other verses in the same book being correct also. But i undertsnad the probs and hence now we have the matheatical miracle but even here i agree not all the letters or even words of every verse have yet been confirmed to be part of the quran(the verse nos have been to quite an extent). Thts y bro Bahman also says we need to continue tht reserach and tht is going on as GOD Wills. GOD Bless!
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Peace all,
Following is my understanding of "qibla" and "almasjid alharam" as mentioned in al-qur'aan. This is from an earlier thread in the past
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=11674.0
For the benefit of the readers, I will re-post the article here with minor revisions
AL-MASJID AL-HARAM AN INSTITUTION
"Sajada" means prostration/submission/obedience or "hearing and obeying" and could be mental or bodily or both according to its usage in the qur'aan and the Arabic language. The place where one performs "sajada" is a "masjid" which could be mental or a government institution or a physical building depending on the context in which the word is used. When one performs a bodily "sajada" in some place, then that place becomes a physical "masjid" which could be a building or an empty piece of land. When one mentally obeys/submits to The God, then the mind becomes the "masjid". When an institution is established for hearing and obeying The God then that institution becomes the "masjid".
It is common in the Arabic language to use "masjid" to mean an institution of obedience and not a physical place. For example, one hears of "al-masjid al-azhar" issuing a fatwa. It is not a physical building that issues the fatwa but the people representing the institution of Al-Azhar that issue the fatwa. Similarly, in the English language, when the House of Commons makes a decision, or the Senate passes a bill, it is not the physical building that passes the bill, but the people in that institution that do so. Hence it follows that a "masjid" can be one's mind or a government institution also.
"Al-masjid al-haram" translated can mean "institution/implementation of hearing and obeying the forbidden" according to Arabic language. Hence, it could be a government institution (institution of authority) or one's mind. To determine what it means in the qur'aan, one has to see the context of its usage in the qur'aan.
First I will mention the historical and scientific evidence that "al-masjid al-haram" cannot be a physical building and then I will discuss the qur'aanic evidence.
THE HISTORICAL EVIDENCE
One has to consider if there was any physical building by the name "Al-Masjid Al-Haram" at the time when the qur'aan was revealed. If there was no phyical building by that name at the time of revelation of the qur'aan, then it is impossible that the phrase "al-masjid al-haram" refers to a physical building in the qur'aan.
There is ZERO historical or archeological evidence of the existence of any physical building by the name of Al-Masjid Al-Haram at the time of revelation of the qur'aan, hence it is unlikely for it to mean a physical building according to the qur'aan. The physical building by the name of Al-Masjid Al-Haram in Mecca was constructed many years after the revelation of the qur'aan, and was named after the common phrase "al-masjid al-haram" used in the qur'aan and therefore that physical building could not have been referred to in the qur'aan. Similarly, the physical building by the name of Al-Masjid Al-Aqsa was constructed many years after the death of Prophet Muhammad, and therefore cannot be "al-masjid al-aqsa" mentioned in the qur'aan.
AL-MASJID AL-HARAM CANNOT BE THE BUILDING NOW KNOWN AS THE KAABA
Similarly, "al-masjid al-haram" as used in the qur'aan cannot be the present Kaaba in Mecca or any other kaaba for that matter. According to the qur'aan, the kaaba is "al-bayt al-haram"/the restricted sanctuary and not "al-masjid al-haram".
597 God has made the Kaaba to be the Restricted Sanctuary, to enforce for the people, and for the restricted month, and for the donations, and for regulation; that is so you know that God knows what is in heavens and what is in Earth, and that God is aware of all things.
"Al-masjid al-haram" is off limits to the idolaters per 928 but "al-bayt al-haram" is for the entire mankind (2226-27), so they cannot be the same thing.
928 O you who believe, those who have set up partners are impure, so let them not approach ?al-masjid al-haram? after this year of theirs; and if you fear poverty, then God will enrich you from His blessings if He wills. God is Knowledgeable, Wise.
2226 And We have appointed to Abraham the location of the Sanctuary "Do not set up anyone with Me, and purify My Sanctuary for those who will partake, and those who will enforce, and those who kneel and prostrate."
2227 And call out to mankind with the hajj/debate, they will come to you walking and on every transport, they will come from every deep enclosure.In 52, "al-bayt al-haram" is mentioned separately from "al-masjid al-haram" so the two cannot be the same.
52 O you who believe, do not violate God's decrees, nor the restricted month, nor the donations, nor what is regulated, nor the safety made by ?al-bayt al-haram?/the Restricted Sanctuary; for they are seeking a bounty from their Lord and a blessing. And when it is permitted for you, then you may hunt. And let not the hatred of another people; because they had barred you from ?al-masjid al-haram?/institution of hearing and obeying the forbidden; make you aggress. And bond together in piety and righteousness, and do not bind together in sin and aggression. And be aware of God, for God's retribution is severe.
THE SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE
2144 We see the shifting of thy face towards the sky; We will thus set for you a qiblah/direction/goal that will be pleasing to you "You shall set yourself towards ?al-masjid al-haram?; and wherever you may be, you shall all set yourselves towards it." Those who have been given the Scripture know it is the truth from their Lord. And God is not unaware of what you do.
One is supposed to set "al-masjid al-haram" as one's direction or face it WHEREVER one is. If "al-masjid al-haram" is a physical building then one CANNOT face it WHEREVER one is as it is PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE to face a physical building WHEREVER one is.
Firstly, the ability to face a physical building WHEREVER one is assumes that the Earth is flat. However the reality is that the Earth is spherical. You can face a physical building only until it is in your line of sight. As soon as you get further away from it and it disappears beyond the horizon, you are no longer facing it because of the Earth's curvature, but facing a point in the sky/space many degrees away from the physical building which could be many miles away depending on one's exact location and the distance from the physical building.
Secondly, where will one face if one is on a place on Earth directly opposite to the place where the physical building is located ? Should one face one way or the opposite way then ? Actually both will be wrong because one will actually be looking at a point in space MANY MILES away from the actual physical building !!
Thirdly, where will one face if one is in space or on a distant planet, for example on MARS ? That is a very distinct possibility based on the current technological advancement of mankind. Allah's words should be applicable to all situations and there should be no doubt, as His words are complete relevant to our guidance and are for all times. Do you think that Allah forgot about the possibility of space travel or inter-planetary travel ?
THE QUR'AANIC EVIDENCE
Now let us go through all the verses of the qur'aan one by one, containing "al-masjid al-haram" to see if the phrase means a physical building or a mental state or government institution according to the context. Let us first see what the "qiblah" is according to the qur'aan
2144 We see the shifting of thy face towards the sky; We will thus set for you a qiblah/direction/goal that will be pleasing to you "You shall set yourself towards al-masjid al-haram/institution of hearing and obeying the forbidden; and wherever you may be, you shall all set yourselves towards it." Those who have been given the Scripture know it is the truth from their Lord. And God is not unaware of what you do.
2149 And from wherever you go out, you shall set yourself towards al-masjid al-haram; it is the truth from your Lord; and God is not unaware of what you do.
2150 And wherever you go out, you shall set yourself towards al-masjid al-haram. And wherever you may be you shall set yourselves towards it; that the people will have no room for debate with you, except those of them who are wicked. You shall not fear them, but fear Me; so that I may complete My blessings upon you and that you may be guided.According to 2144, the "qiblah"/direction/goal is "al-masjid al-haram", and is defined as "the truth from your Lord". "Al-masjid al-haram", therefore, is "the truth from your Lord" which is a mental direction/goal and not a physical one. One cannot face a physical direction WHEREVER one is, as we are being asked to do in 2144, 149, 150. However, the mental state or government institution of implementing hearing and obeying of the forbidden, which is "the truth from your Lord", can easily be one's direction or goal wherever one is. One should be oriented to the truth from our Lord at all times. As clear from the last part of 2144, the only requirement for knowing the true "qiblah"/direction/goal is to be given the scripture from our Lord. There is no requirement to have a compass or to consult a geographical map to know the true "qiblah" from our Lord.
This is confirmed by the following verses which consolidate the fact that "qiblah" is not a physical direction because turning east or west is irrelevant as far as The God's presence or piety is concerned
2115 And to God belongs the east and the west, so wherever you turn, there is God's presence. God is Encompassing, Knowledgeable.
2177 Piety is not to turn your faces towards the east and the west, but piety is one who believes in God and the Last Day..........
In 2142-150 there is no command to face "al-masjid al-haram" while upholding salat and if Allah had willed that muslims should face "al-masjid al-haram" while upholding salat then there were no dearth of words for Allah to express his wishes and commands. He would have plainly commanded "wheresoever you may be face "al-masjid al-haram" while upholding salat." Why Allah deliberately omitted the word "salat" from the whole verse and from the subsequent verses? It is a clear indication that neither Allah is pointing to the physical Masjid Al-Haram, which was not there and neither asking us to face it while upholding salat.
If it was the truth from our Lord which the people of the Book knew, then why Moses and his people, Jesus and his people NEVER visited Mecca to see Masjid Al-Haram and why Prophet Muhammad in his first seventeen years of preaching faced Jerusalem while upholding salat (although this is nowhere mentioned in the qur'aan). What was the "qiblah" of the people of Moses? Jerusalem or houses in Egypt? In which direction the children of Israel faced while upholding their salat ? There is no verse in the qur'aan, which says that the Jews and Christians performed salat while facing Jerusalem and there is no verse in the qur'aan commanding the muslims to offer their salat while facing Masjid Al-Haram.
Remember there was no physical mosque in Mecca except the stone structure full of idols, according to the historical unverifiable hearsays and rumors, the so called "hadeeth", and other historical literary works. In fact, there is ZERO historical evidence for the existence of ANY physical building by the name of Al-Masjid Al-Haram at the time of revelation of the qur'aan. According to historical records the physical buildng presently known as Masjid Al-Haram was constructed many years after the death of Prophet Muhammad. So how can Allah command the muslims to face the direction of a physical building when it did not even exist ?
We have already seen above in 2144, 2149, and 2150, that in those verses "al-masjid al-haram" can only mean a mental state or government institution and not a physical building, as one cannot face a physical building WHEREVER one is, and the submitters at the time of Prophet Muhammad could not have faced a physical building when it did not even exist at that time. Let us see the other verses in which the phrase occurs
2191 And kill them wherever you find them, and expel them from where they expelled you, and know that persecution is worse than being killed. And do not fight them by al-masjid al-haram/institution of hearing and obeying the forbidden unless they fight you in it; if they fight you then kill them, thus is the reward of the disbelievers.
The corrupters forgot that the verse itself is authorizing the believers to kill the disbelievers WHEREVER they are found and therefore there are no restrictions in respect of place. There is no word "illa" meaning "except" in the verse but the verse further continues with "and". As explained before that THERE WAS NO PHYSICAL BUILDING BY THE NAME OF MASJID AL-HARAM at that time, and therefore how can a command be given to the believers to not fight with the disbelievers at a physical building when it does not even exist ?
Similar words are used around "al-masjid al-haram" as are used around "deen" in 609, yet no one suggests that "deen" is a physical building !!
2191 And kill them wherever you find them, and expel them from where they expelled you, and know that persecution is worse than being killed. And do not fight them by al-masjid al-haramunless they fight you in it; if they fight you then kill them, thus is the reward of the disbelievers.
- The God only forbids you from taking as protectors those who fought you in the deen/obligation/system and evicted you from your homes and they openly tried to evict you and whoever takes them as protectors, those are the unjust.
2217 They ask you about the restricted month "Is there fighting in it?" Say "Much fighting is in it, and to repel from the path of God and to disbelieve in it, and al-masjid al-haram/institution of hearing and obeying the forbidden, and to drive its people out from it is far greater with God, and persecution is worse than being killed." And they still will fight you until they turn you back from your system/deen if they are able. And whoever of you turns back from his system/deen, and he dies while disbelieving, then these have nullified their work in this life and the next; these are the people of the Fire, in it they will abide eternally!
Our obligation/system/deen is to institute the hearing and obeying of the restrictions. If someone fights us or is about to kill us because we institute the hearing and obeying of what The God restricted on us then we should fight back. The word "'inda" can mean "near" or "by" or "at the point of", so when the believers are by/at the point of institution of implementing the hearing and obeying of the forbidden, they are ordered not to fight the disbelievers unless they fight the believers first. Near does not always denote a physical place; one can be near the completion or achievement of one's goal. In 609 when it says "who fought you IN the deen", does not mean that "deen" is a physical place. Similarly when it says "unless they fight you IN it" in 2191, does not mean that "al-masjid al-haram" is a physical place. The words "'inda" or "fi" do not always denote a physical place.
2196 And complete the hajj/debate and the visit for God. But, if you are prevented, then make what is affordable of donation, and do not relieve your heads until the donation reaches its destination; but whoever of you is ill or has an affliction to his head, then he may redeem by fasting or giving a charity or a sacrifice. But if you are able, then whoever continues the visit until the hajj/debate, then he shall provide what is affordable of donation; but for he who cannot find anything, then he must fast for three days during the hajj/debate and seven when he returns; this will make a complete ten; this is for those whose family is not present (liman lam yakun ahluhu haadiree) at al-masjid al-haram/institution of hearing and obeying the forbidden. And be aware of God, and know that God is severe in retribution.
HAADIR = present, attending, ready, prepared, current, present to take part or participate, the present, the present time, this moment, today, now.
If Allah meant residing, dwelling or living then He would have put the proper word in the verse such as "yuskan, yuqtan, yuqeem, yaeesh" and not "haadir", therefore the phrase "liman lam yakun ahluhu haadiree" does not mean "whose family is non-resident of.....". Moreover "al-masjid al-haram" is not a city or a town or a village or a house so that it becomes a dwelling place. Also one should remember that at the time of revelation of the qur'aan there was NO PHYSICAL BUILDING by the name of Al-Masjid Al-Haram.
We hear about 10 days in 2196, three during the "hajj"/debate and seven when those whose family was not in the institution of hearing and obeying the restriction/"al-masjid al-haram" return. As for those whose family is in the institution of hearing and obeying the restriction, they would stay the whole 10 days. This makes sense because those whose families are not oriented to the truth from our Lord or are not participating/attending/present in the institution of implementing the hearing and obeying of the restrictions of the system/deen, should go back earlier to teach them based on what they heard.
2217 They ask you about the restricted month "Is there fighting in it?" Say "Much fighting is in it, and to repel from the path of God and to disbelieve IN IT (the path of God), and al-masjid al-haram/institution of hearing and obeying the forbidden, and to drive its people (the people of the path of God and al-masjid al-haram) out from it is far greater with God, and persecution is worse than being killed." And they still will fight you until they turn you back from your system/deen if they are able. And whoever of you turns back from his system/deen, and he dies while disbelieving, then these have nullified their work in this life and the next; these are the people of the Fire, in it they will abide eternally!
The corrupters mistranslate this verse like crazy. Following is the mistranslated version of this verse
2217 They ask you about the restricted month "Is there fighting in it?" Say "Much fighting is in it, and to repel from the path of God and to disbelieve in Him, and at the Restricted Temple, to drive its inhabitants out is far greater with God, and persecution is worse than being killed." And they still will fight you until they turn you back from your system if they are able. And whoever of you turns back from his system, and he dies while disbelieving, then these have nullified their work in this life and the next; these are the people of the Fire, in it they will abide eternally!
Disbelieving in the path of Allah and "al-masjid al-haram" and expelling its people from it is the message of the verse but according to the corrupters it becomes
Preventing access to the path of Allah,
Disbelieving in ALLAH,
Preventing access to Masjid Al Haram,
And to drive out its (Masjid Al Haram) INHABITANTS.The translators also omit the words MIN HU (from it) in their translation.
WA KUFR BI HI And disbelieve in Him
Is the above meaning correct? Is it disbelieving in Allah or disbelieving IN IT (The way of Allah)
"Wa kufr bihi" does not mean disbelieve in Allah but disbelieve IN IT (the way of Allah) because the subject before "kufr bihi" is not Allah but the way of Allah therefore it is disbelieving in the way of Allah and not in Allah and it further continues "and al-masjid al-haram", therefore it is disbelieving in the way of Allah and "al-masjid al-haram". If it is disbelieving in "al-masjid al-haram" then how is it possible to disbelieve in the physical Masjid Al Haram, which was not there, when this verse was revealed. And moreover what is disbelieving in the physical Masjid Al Haram ? How can someone disbelieve in a physical building ? Physical Masjid Al Haraam is supposed to be a place of salat and not a place of dwelling so that its inhabitants could be driven out.
Who are the people of Masjid Al Haram? When were the believers first expelled from the Masjid Al Haram? We can expel/drive out people from their houses or from their towns, cities etc but how could we expel/drive out the people of a mosque from the mosque when there was no mosque and when they never entered it.
According to the correct translation of the verse it is great transgression to fight in the forbidden months and it is greatest transgression to keep away from the way of Allah, to disbelieve in the way of Allah and to disbelieve in the institution of hearing and obeying the forbidden and to drive the people who follow the way of Allah and follow the institution of hearing and obeying the forbidden from it.
CONTINUED ....................
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52 O you who believe, do not violate God's decrees, nor the restricted month, nor the donations, nor what is regulated, nor the safety made by the Restricted Sanctuary; for they are seeking a bounty from their Lord and a blessing. And when it is permitted for you, then you may hunt. And let not the hatred of another people; because they had barred you from al-masjid al-haram/institution of hearing and obeying the forbidden; make you aggress. And bond together in piety and righteousness, and do not bind together in sin and aggression. And be aware of God, for God's retribution is severe.
834 And why should God not punish them when they are turning others away from al-masjid al-haram, and they were never its protectors! Its protectors are the righteous; but most of them do not know.
- Those who have rejected/unappreciated and repelled from the path of The God and al-masjid al-haram/the institution of hearing and obeying the restriction that we had appointed/established for the people, equally the one committed in it and the one who left to find clarity. And whoever deviates in it with falsely attributing with injustice, we will cause them to taste from a painful suffering.
4825 They are the ones who rejected and barred you from al-masjid al-haram, and barred your donations from reaching their destination. And there had been believing men and women whom you did not know, and you may have hurt them, and on whose account you would have committed a sin unknowingly. God will admit into His mercy whomever He wills. Had they become separated, We would then have punished those of them who rejected with a painful retribution.
My understanding of these verses is that "al-masjid al-haram" (the institution of hearing and obeying the restriction) is a non-physical institution of authority just like "sabeel Allah" (the path of The God) is non-physical. Those who rejected repel from both in the same way.
The disbelievers did not believe in the path of Allah and did not believe in "al-masjid al-haram"/institution of hearing and obeying the forbidden, and at the same time tried their best to keep the believers away from the path of Allah and "al-masjid al-haram"/institution of implementing hearing and obeying the forbidden.
The disbelievers cannot repel or keep away the faith of the believers from their hearts, rather these verses are talking about the disbelievers repelling and keeping away the believers from smooth running of the government institution for implementing hearing and obeying of the restrictions of the system/deen, thereby disrupting it. It would be similar to a group of terrorists trying to disrupt a government institution meeting for passing laws in a country nowadays.
In these verses, just like the path of God is not a physical road or highway, similarly "al-masjid al-haram" is not a physical building but an institution of authority (government institution) for implementing the hearing and obeying of the forbidden.
Now the question arises why the disbelievers of Mecca and Medina disbelieved in the Masjid Al Haram and kept away from it. If Kaaba was Masjid Al Haram then the disbelievers neither disbelieved in it nor kept away from it, as they were totally devoted to it. Remember, there is ZERO evidence of a physical building by the name of Al-Masjid Al-Haram at the time of revelation of the qur'aan, so how can disbelievers keep the believers away from or hinder their entrance to a physical building when it did not even exist ? That would be absurd.
Let us reconsider 2225 where two words "al-'aakif" and "al-baadi" are usually mistranslated
2225 Those who have rejected and repel from the path of God and al-masjid al-haram that We have made for mankind, for the dweller or the visitor to it; and whoever inclines to evil action in it, We will let them taste a painful retribution.
Masjid Al-Haram, if it is a physical building would be a place of upholding salat, and not a city or a town, or a house where people DWELL. Moreover there is no evidence of a physical building by that name while the qur'aan was being revealed, so how can someone dwell or visit a non-existent building ?
'AAKIF one who devotes or dedicates oneself to, one who is occupied with or engaged in, one who applies one's self assiduously, one committed to.
BAADI the one who left where one was to search for clarity
The correct translation of 2225 would therefore be as follows
- Those who have rejected/unappreciated and repelled from the path of The God and the institution of hearing and obeying the restriction that we had appointed/established for the people, equally the one committed in it and the one who left to find clarity. And whoever deviates in it with falsely attributing with injustice, we will cause them to taste from a painful suffering.
We implement The God's system by orienting ourselves towards "al-masjid al-haram"/the truth from our Lord wherever we are. For example, our institutions of authority (such as government) should be based on the principles of the truth from our Lord in the great reading. Naturally, those who setup partners would not implement such system but will try to undermine it for personal gains. Thus, we should not allow them to be in authority or even come near positions of authority. On the other hand, "al-masjid al-haram"/the truth from our Lord is for people who are committed to it (al-'aakif) and people who have left where they were to search for clarity (al-baadi).
If we look under the Arabic root "BDW", we will find that it has meanings such as "made apparent/clear" (3947-48, 4533, etc.), "occur to/think of" (1235), and "left where they were" (3320). The word "badw" is applied to people who leave where they are to search for something such as grazing places or water. So we can see that the themes of leaving, searching and making clear/apparent are the main themes that run through that word. Thus, "al-baadi" in the context of 2225 is someone who left what they were on (examples include Christianity, Sunnism, or any inherited dogma). They left in order to search for what ? From the other meanings of "BDW", it can be deduced that they left to search for clarity. Thus, the translation of "al-baadi" is "one who left to search for clarity".
Another point to note is that at the beginning of the verse 2225, The God says that He appointed/established the path of The God AND al-masjid al-haram. He uses the same word "ja'alna" for both. Now the path of Allah is not a physical road or highway, so if one takes "ja'alna" to mean "physically made" then "path of Allah" will not fit that meaning. The only way "ja'alna" can be used for both path of Allah and "al-masjid al-haram" is if both were non-physical.
97 How can those who have set up partners have a pledge with God and with His messenger? Except for those with whom you made a pledge 'inda/by/in the presence of al-masjid al-haram/institution of implementing hearing and obeying the forbidden, as long as they are upright with you, then you are upright with them. God loves the righteous.
If "'inda" here is translated as "near" implying "near a physical building" then it does not make any sense. There was no physical building by the name of Masjid Al-Haram at the time of Prophet Muhammad, so how could the believers have made a pledge with the idolaters near a physical building by that name ?
The treaty was of no fighting during the prohibited four months and attacking each other without any valid reason. The believers were ordered to honor their treaties to the end of the term, but those idolaters who did not have a treaty with the believers were liable to be attacked after the forbidden months have passed, but if they repent and uphold the commitments of no fighting then the believers should leave their way. There cannot be a treaty of Allah and His messenger with the idolaters except with those with whom the believers entered into a treaty of no fight. The word "'inda" also means "by/in the presence of" which will make more sense in 97. The treaty was made by/in the presence of "al-masjid al-haram" meaning it was based on the principle of "the truth from our Lord" implementing the hearing and obeying of no fighting in the prohibited months.
917 It was not for those who have set up partners to maintain institutions of hearing and obeying The God while they bear witness over their own rejection. For these, their works have fallen, and in the Fire they will abide.
918 Rather, the institutions of hearing and obeying The God are maintained by he who believes in God and the Last Day, and he upholds the contact-method, and he contributes towards betterment, and he does not fear except God. It is these that will be of the guided ones.
919 Have you made the watering of the pilgrim and the maintenance of al-masjid al-haram/institution of hearing and obeying the forbidden the same as one who believes in God and the Last Day and he strives in the cause of God ? They are not the same with God. And God does not guide the wicked people.There was no physical building by the name of Masjid Al-Haram when this verse was revealed so there arises no question of maintenance of a physical structure by someone. According to 919, the idolators were previously involved in the government institution of hearing and obeying the forbidden, and this participation was later banned by 928. 917-18 and 928 make it clear that the institutions of hearing and obeying The God only prosper with people who are not idolaters.
Previously the believers needed to have a peace treaty with the idolaters for a peaceful existence, necessitating the participation of idolaters in the government institution of hearing and obeying the restrictions, but after the victory of the believers, there was no further need of a peace treaty with the idolaters and their participation in the institution of hearing and obeying the forbidden, hence their subsequent participation was banned.
928 O you who believe, those who have set up partners are impure, so let them not approach al-masjid al-haram after this year of theirs; and if you fear poverty, then God will enrich you from His blessings if He wills. God is Knowledgeable, Wise.
This verse makes it clear that the idolaters should not participate in "al-masjid al-haram" anymore. Here if "al-masjid al-haram" is a physical building then how can one prevent an idolater from entering a physical building ? Anyone can learn a few words like "la ilaha illallaha", meaning "there is no god but The God", or "salaamun alaikum", meaning peace be upon you, and claim to be a submitter, and enter that physical building. Only The God knows what is in the hearts. An idolater, while setting up partners with The God in his heart, can deceive the general public into believing that he is not an idolater by saying certain phrases, thereby being able to enter a physical building without any problem.
The idolaters turn away others from the implementation of hearing and obeying the forbidden and do not implement the hearing and obeying of the forbidden themselves. It is not possible to prevent an idolater from entering a physical building, as one does not know what is in the heart, but it is possible to prevent an idolater from participating in a government institution for the implementation of hearing and obeying the forbidden. Hence "al-masjid al-haram" in this verse can only mean a government institution for implementation of hearing and obeying the restrictions in the "deen", and not a physical building.
In addition to that, at the time this verse was revealed, there was NO PHYSICAL BUILDING by the name of Al-Masjid Al-Haram, so how is it possible to prevent an idolater from entering a physical building which does not even exist ? !!
171 Glory be to the One who took His servant by night from al-masjid al-haram to al-masjid al-aqsa which We had blessed around, so that We may show him of Our signs. Indeed, He is the Listener, the Seer.
It is a fact that the physical building by the name of Masjid Al-Aqsa was constructed in the Ummayad dynasty many years after the death of Prophet Muhammad. Similarly, the physical building by the name of Masjid Al-Haram was built many years after the death of Prophet Muhammad. At the time of revelation of the above verse there were NO physical buildings by those names. The verse describes a spiritual/non-physical elevation of state of Prophet Muhammad from a state of institution of hearing and obeying the forbidden to the utmost state of institution of hearing and obeying and signifies a tremendous increase in his awareness on that night.
This state of utmost/ultimate hearing and obeying is described in 7206 in different terms
7206 Those who are at your Lord, they are never too proud to serve Him, and they glorify Him, and to Him they submit.
Verses 531-18 and 8115-23 talk about the signs in 171. According to those verses, the state of "utmost hearing and obeying" is a state that is outside our narrow perception. To get closer to that state we must first go through hearing and obeying the forbidden (al-masjid al-haram) and we must never be too proud to serve our Lord and exalt Him. Only then we can hope to be close to our Lord in a state of utmost hearing and obeying (al-masjid al-aqsa) at the garden.
4827 God has fulfilled with truth His messenger's vision "You will enter al-masjid al-haram, God willing, secure, with your heads high/relieved and restrained, having no fear." Thus, He knew what you did not know, and He has coupled with this a near victory.
The above verse is also grossly mistranslated by the traditional translators. Firstly there was no physical building by the name of Masjid Al-Haram at the time of revelation of the qur'aan. Secondly, when there is victory, the victors do not enter the defeated town with their heads shaved or hair cut short. Does it make any sense that when the believers were victorious they all went to the barbers and either shaved their head or cut their hair short ? What for ? Thirdly, there is no word for "hair" in this verse. The object for "muhalliqeena" translated as "shaved" and "muqassireena" translated as "shortened" is "ruoosakum" meaning "head", but it is obvious that one cannot shorten or cut the head !! Fourthly, did The God forget about bald people ? !!
MUHALLAQ = soaring, in flight, high, flying, high flying.
QASAR = short, cut short, reduce, lessen, insufficient, inadequate, fail to attain/achieve, cease, abstain, refrain, to hold back, restrain, curb
This verse talks about the victory of the believers over those who were fighting with them to try to keep them away and repel them from establishing/setting up "al-masjid al-haram"/government institution of hearing and obeying the forbidden i.e. revert them from their obligation/"deen". This is confirmed by verses 1101-2
1101 When God's victory and conquest comes.
1102 And you see mankind entering into God's system in flocks.Putting 4827 and 1101-2 together, we can see that after the victory of the messenger and those with him over those who tried to revert them from their "deen"/system/obligation, they will enter the institute of hearing and obeying the forbidden safely and securely with their heads high/relieved and restrained (self-controlled) and then many people will follow and enter The God's obligation.
One can enter "al-masjid al-haram" without it being a physical building just like mankind can enter The God's "deen"/system without "deen" being a physical building.
The above is my current understanding on this topic which gives logical proof that "al-masjid al-haram" as mentioned in al-qur'aan cannot be a physical building. Any comments and constructive criticism from the readers will be appreciated.
Peace
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Peace bro "tanveer",
Excellent points but id like to add that the "days" can also not mean always 24 hr earth days since when we go to outer space well have no such days whilst in space ship. So yaum here has to refer to particualr periods of time which are relative. How do you think one would set these in a space ship? this is getting interesting. GOD Bless! -
Peace bro Khizar,
I agree, "yaum" as used in al-qur'aan does not mean 24 hour day but period of time. In my opinion a human "day" in outer space can be arbitrarily determined by the built in human clock controlling the sleep wake cycle according to the circadian rhythm (pineal gland).
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Peace bro "tanveer",
Peace bro Khizar,
I agree, "yaum" as used in al-qur'aan does not mean 24 hour day but period of time. In my opinion a human "day" in outer space can be arbitrarily determined by the built in human clock controlling the sleep wake cycle according to the circadian rhythm (pineal gland).
JK- Oh man this is becoming really exciting. GOD Bless!
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Peace all,
Perhaps a simple diagram can explain this more easily
http//i82.photobucket.com/albums/j265/tanveermd/refraction2.gif
In the above diagram, suppose the physical building is on the right side of the Earth and a person is standing on the left side, it is obvious that it is impossible for the person to face the building once the building is past the visible horizon and not in the line of sight of the person, due to Earth's curvature, thus the person is facing a point in space/sky instead of facing the building. This explains "the shifting of your face towards the sky" in 2144
Similar diagram where the person is at A and the building is at B and the line of sight is AC
http//i82.photobucket.com/albums/j265/tanveermd/fig02.jpg
This shows how it is IMPOSSIBLE to face a physical building once it is beyond the visible horizon. Oh ..... but I forgot ..... according to tg, God asks us to do impossible things in al-qur'aan