Criticism of Mecca and Kaaba

maxq

Sorry abrar, but you haven't understood a word I wrote... relativity is a behavioural model. Let me know when it syncs. Stop using verses that have nothing to do with relativity. How can you claim that 325 is referring to relativity

He governs all that exists, from the celestial Highs to the Lows. And all things evolve higher to what they are meant to be in such stages where a single Day before Him equals a thousand years according to your count.

is pointing back to ...

Now, Back to Nun de plume's topic...

warner

Peace be with you

I was checking to find any verse which says God is everywhere but couldn?t. The following are some verses which possibly sheds light in to this issue and give us some indication.

32 4
Yusuf Ali It is Allah Who has created the heavens and the earth and all between them in six Days and is firmly established on the Throne (of authority) ye have none besides Him to protect or intercede (for you) will ye not then receive admonition?

32 5
Yusuf Ali He rules (all) affairs from the heavens to the earth in the end will (all affairs) go up to Him on a Day the space whereof will be (as) a thousand years of your reckoning.

22 47
Yusuf Ali Yet they ask thee to hasten on the Punishment! But Allah will not fail in His promise. Verily a day in the sight of thy Lord is like a thousand years of your reckoning.

70 3
Yusuf Ali (A Penalty) from Allah Lord of the Ways of Ascent.
70 4
Yusuf Ali The angels and the Spirit ascend unto Him in a Day the measure whereof is (as) fifty thousand years

40 7
Yusuf Ali Those who sustain the Throne (of Allah) and those around it sing Glory and Praise to their Lord; believe in Him; and implore forgiveness for those who believe "Our Lord! Thy reach is over all things in Mercy and Knowledge. Forgive then those who turn in repentance and follow Thy Path and preserve them from the Penalty of the Blazing Fire!

39 75
Yusuf Ali And thou wilt see the angels surrounding the Throne (Divine) on all sides singing Glory and Praise to their Lord. The Decision between them (at Judgment) will be in (perfect) justice. And the cry (on all sides) will be "Praise be to Allah the Lord of the Worlds!"

57 4
Yusuf Ali He it is Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days and is moreover firmly established on the Throne (of authority). He knows what enters within the earth and what comes forth out of it what comes down from heaven and what mounts up to it. And He is with you wheresoever ye may be. And Allah sees well all that ye do.

57 5
Yusuf Ali To Him belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and all affairs are
referred back to Allah.

13 2
Yusuf Ali Allah is He Who raised the heavens without any pillars that ye can see; is firmly established on the throne (of authority); He has subjected the sun and the moon (to His law)! each one runs (its course) for a term appointed. He doth regulate affairs explaining the Signs in detail that ye may believe with certainty in the meeting with your Lord

25 59
Yusuf Ali He Who created the heavens and the earth and all that is between in six days and is firmly established on the Throne (of authority) Allah Most Gracious ask thou then about Him of any acquainted (with such things).

20 5
Yusuf Ali (Allah) Most Gracious is firmly established on the throne (of authority).

10 3
Yusuf Ali Verily your Lord is Allah Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days and is firmly established on the Throne (of authority) regulating and governing all things. No intercessor (can plead with Him) except after His leave (hath been obtained). This is Allah your Lord; Him therefore serve ye will ye not celebrate His praises?

2 255
Yusuf Ali Allah! there is no Allah but He the living the Self-subsisting Eternal. No slumber can seize him nor sleep. His are all things in the heavens and on earth. Who is there can intercede in His presence except as He permitteth? He knoweth what (appeareth to his creatures as) before or after or behind them. Nor shall they compass aught of his knowledge except as He willeth. His throne doth extend over the heavens and the earth and He feeleth no fatigue in guarding and preserving them. For He is the Most High the Supreme (in glory).

69 15 Yusuf Ali On that Day shall the (Great) Event come to pass

69 16 Yusuf Ali And the sky will be rent asunder for it will that Day be flimsy

69 17 Yusuf Ali And the angels will be on its sides and eight will that Day bear the Throne of thy Lord above them.

abrar

Peace and greetings,

Dear Maxq,

You are mistranslating the verse. Your translation compeletely misrepresents Classical Arabic meaning of which means " It Ascends". The meaning means place of ascent, route of ascent, ladder, stairs. So it means to move upwards and not your self defined evolution.

means "whose amount or measurement"

I advise you to read authentic translations of Quran and keep a good collection of classical Arabic dictionaries.

Relativity is the practical theory and Quantum theory is just a limitation of planck's constant due to the limitations of today's percision science.

The corrected translation is

Chapter 32 verse 5

"He manages matters from the heaven to the Earth, then it ascends to Him in a day whose measurement is a thousand years which you count. "

abrar

means "manages/governs"

means " the affair/ affairs "

means " from the heaven"

means " to the earth "

means " then it ascends "

means " to Him "

means " in a day "

means " was / is "

means " whose measurement/amount "

means " A thousand years "

means " which you count "

is pointing to the God and not to heavens and earth.

Please read authentic sources of translation and Classical Arabic dictionaries and do not try to invent meanings according to your feelings or unreliable sources.

You probably do not know much about the theory of relativity versus Quantum theory Debate.

It is often said that general relativity is incompatible with quantum mechanics. This means that if one attempts to treat the gravitational field using the ordinary rules of quantum field theory, one finds that physical quantities are divergent. Such divergences are common in quantum field theories, and can be cured by adding parameters to the theory known as counterterms. These counterterms are infinities which are equal in magnitude and opposite in sign to the divergent terms. When they are added, the infinities cancel, leaving only finite terms, but modifying the meaning of terms in the equation such as "mass" and "charge" .

Many of the best understood quantum field theories, such as quantum electrodynamics, contain divergences which are canceled by counterterms that have been effectively measured. One needs to say effectively because the counterterms are formally infinite, however it suffices to measure observable quantities, such as physical particle masses and coupling constants, which depend on the counterterms in such a way that the various infinities cancel.

A problem arises, however, when the cancellation of all infinities requires the inclusion of an infinite number of counterterms. In this case the theory is said to be nonrenormalizable.

General relativity is a highly successful model of gravitation and cosmology. It has passed every unambiguous test to which it has been subjected so far, both observationally and experimentally. It is therefore almost universally accepted by the scientific community.

The probabilistic nature of quantum mechanics thus stems from the act of measurement. This is one of the most difficult aspects of quantum systems to understand. It was the central topic in the famous Bohr-Einstein debates, in which the two scientists attempted to clarify these fundamental principles by way of thought experiments. In the decades after the formulation of quantum mechanics, the question of what constitutes a "measurement" has been extensively studied. The final conclusion is that we do'nt understand the real nature of subatomic particles and the chemistry we know today might seem like an ancient primitiveness to those in the future when measurements reach greater details of subatomic world.

Pleas visit the link below to find out that the criticism towards indeterminism caused by Quantum theory is on the rise in the scientific community. I personally do not believe in subatomic properties explained by today's physicists who have deliberately made evrything limited to planck's constant without recognising the limit of precise accuracy of their measurements. There exist subatomic levels beyond planck's constant which may be understood by future Einstiens.

http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bohr-Einstein_debates

And increase your broad knowledge about it and do not take explanations provided by athiest minded scientists for granted like an innocent child who believes in anything which his mother tells him to. Appreciate relativity theory and do not reject its subtleness just because Quantum theorists cannot determine evrything and cannot understand beyond planck's length. Atoms, electrons, protons and neutrons cannot be observed in real time and if their theory works so many ancient theories were working until broader theories were discovered which took ancient theories as a subcategory of a broder enlightened theory. Ancient theories were amazingly true fairy tales of wrong sided of luckily consistant explanations which clouded the broader theories. Quantum theory has only provided fairy tale style luckily consistant explanations of subatomic levels but has not been able to rule out the relativity model at subatomic levels even because there is a limit to the measurement ability at subatomic level so building blocks of matter are realistically unknown

abrar

You can always peel the skin of a skin and keep on doing it forever. How will you assume that a point will be reached when you peel of into nothingness. Is the building block of matter nothingness ? practically evrything has to have a skin, it cannot become invincible or vanish into nothingness. Just use this analogy and you will realise that planck's constant is a conjecture due to the limitation of peeling ability measurement.

phoenix1

peace all,
I don't think we should be getting into all these scientific theories and coming up with new ones.
I don't think mathematical codes or scientific knowledge is required to understand the quran. It was written 1400 years ago. People back then didn't have super computers and large telescopes.

so going back on topic...

Does the quran say we should turn toward masjid al haram during salat?
or does it say that we should turn toward masjid al haram ALL the time?

Abrar, Nun de Plume, thegod,
if the direction is PHYSICAL, then how are we supposed to face it ALL the time?

Also, I have not read all the stuff about Einstein's theories and Planck's constant (on this thread that is), and I'm not really a physicist (don't think I'll ever be), but Penrose has shown that Einstein's General Relativity works on the microscopic level.

abrar

Peace and greetings

Dear maxq,

NASA's tests have been passed by the relativity theory and not by the quantum theory at the microscopic level which they say is dubious if accuracy of measurements is increased which is beyond NASA's means.

NASA NEWS

Donald Savage
Headquarters, Washington
(Phone 202/358-1727)

Bill Steigerwald
Goddard Space Flight Center, Greenbelt, Md.
(Phone 301/286-5017)
December 16, 2003
RELEASE 03-413

Einstein Makes Extra Dimensions Toe The Line

Scientists say Albert Einstein's principle of the constancy of the speed of light holds up under extremely tight scrutiny, a finding that rules out certain theories predicting extra dimensions and a "frothy" fabric of space.

The finding also demonstrates that basic ground- and space-based observations of the highest-energy gamma-rays, a form of electromagnetic energy like light, can provide insight into the very nature of time, matter, energy and space at scales extremely far below the subatomic level -- something few scientists thought possible.

Dr. Floyd Stecker of NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center in Greenbelt, Md., discussed the implications of these findings in a recent issue of Astroparticle Physics. His work was based partly on an earlier collaboration with Nobel laureate Sheldon Glashow of Boston University.

"What Einstein worked out with pencil and paper nearly a century ago continues to hold up to scientific scrutiny," said Stecker. "High-energy observations of cosmic gamma-rays don't rule out the possibility of extra dimensions and the concept of quantum gravity, but they do place some strict constraints on how scientists can go about finding such phenomena."

Einstein stated that space and time were actually two aspects of a single entity called space-time, a four-dimensional concept. This is the foundation to his theories of special and general relativity. For example, general relativity posits that the force of gravity is the result of mass distorting space-time, like a bowling ball on a mattress.

General relativity is the theory of gravity on a large scale; quantum mechanics is the theory of the atom and subatomic particles on a very small scale. Quantum mechanics does not describe gravity but rather the other three fundamental forces electromagnetism (light), strong forces (binding atomic nuclei), and weak forces (seen in radioactivity).

Scientists have long hoped to meld these theories into one "theory of everything" to describe all aspects of nature. These unifying theories -- such as quantum gravity or string theory -- may involve the invocation of extra dimensions of space and also violations of Einstein's special relativity, such as the speed of light being the maximum attainable velocity for all objects.

Stecker's work involves concepts called the uncertainty principle and Lorentz invariance. The uncertainty principle, derived from quantum mechanics, implies that at the subatomic level virtual particles, also called quantum fluctuations, pop in and out of existence. Many scientists say space-time itself is made up of quantum fluctuations which, when viewed up close, resemble a froth or "quantum foam." Some scientists think a quantum foam of space-time can slow the passage of light. The foam would slow higher-energy light particles, or photons -- such as X-rays and gamma-rays -- more than lower-energy photons of visible light or radio waves.

A fundamental variation in light speed would violate Lorentz invariance, the basic principle of special relativity. Such a violation could be a clue to unification theories. Scientists have hoped to find Lorentz invariance violations by studying gamma-rays coming from the farthest reaches of the visible universe, where the quantum foam of space may act to slow light traveling to us for billions of years.

Stecker looked much closer to home to find that Lorentz invariance is not being violated. He analyzed gamma-rays from two relatively nearby galaxies about half a billion light-years away with supermassive black holes at their centers, named Mkn 421 and Mkn 501. Some of these galaxies' gamma-rays collide with infrared photons in the universe. These collisions result in the destruction of the gamma-ray and infrared photons, as their energy is converted into mass in the form of electrons and positively charged antimatter-electrons (called positrons), according to Einstein's famous formula E=mc^2.

Stecker and Glashow have pointed out that evidence of the annihilation of the highest-energy gamma-rays, obtained from direct observations of Mkn 421 and Mkn 501, demonstrates clearly that Lorentz invariance is alive and well and not being violated. If Lorentz invariance were violated, the gamma-rays would pass right through the extragalactic infrared fog with insufficient energy to cause annihilation.

"The implication is if Lorentz invariance is violated, it is at such a small level -- less than one part in a thousand trillion -- it is beyond the ability of our present technology to find," Stecker said. "These results may also be telling us the correct form of string theory or quantum gravity must obey the principle of Lorentz invariance."

Give up the stupid Quantum theory Come on Maxq

unknownuser

Does the quran say we should turn toward masjid al haram during salat?
or does it say that we should turn toward masjid al haram ALL the time?

Abrar, Nun de Plume, thegod,
if the direction is PHYSICAL, then how are we supposed to face it ALL the time?

Peace Phoenix1,

Please quote verse in Qur'an where it states turn towards masjid al haram 24x7x365 -- ALL the time.

thanks,

abrar

Peace and greetings,

Dear Phoenix1,

You never have to face the Qibla all the time, It is just at times when you want to glorify, praise and thank the God for a period of time whether in a gathering or alone.
Qibla is just a symbolic show of unity with all the believers around the globe and it is not because of the direction of holiness, temple or structures. However according to the Quran the Qibla is physical direction towards the Sacred temple, which is either located in mecca or Jerusalem about which I cannot choose one with certainty until authentic proofs are provided. According to current global conditions kaaba in mecca is the obvious choice. Nowhere in Quran it is ever mentioned that you have to face Qibala all the time. It is just whenever you start forth for glorifying the God from anywhere with sole purpose being unity and descipline of believers.

Chapter 2

143.And as such, We have made you a balanced nation so that you may be witness over the people, and that the messenger may be witness over you. And We did not make the focal point/Qibla that you became on except to distinguish who follows the messenger from those who will turn on their heels. It was a great thing indeed except for those whom God had guided; God was not to waste your belief. God is Merciful and Compassionate over the people.

150.And wherever you go out, you shall set yourself towards the Restricted Temple. And wherever you may be you shall set yourselves towards it; that the people will have no room for debate with you, except those of them who are wicked. You shall not fear them, but fear Me; so that I may complete My blessings upon you and that you may be guided.

Now do'nt say that you have to do it all the time, you can practically do nothing all the time, got to work, sleep, eat. At regular times only.

Alen

Salam.

2143 And as such, We have made you a balanced nation so that you may be witness over the people, and that the messenger may be witness over you. And We did not make the focal point that you became on except to distinguish who follows the messenger from those who will turn on their heels. It was a great thing indeed except for those whom God had guided; God was not to waste your belief. God is Merciful and Compassionate over the people.
2144 We see the shifting of your face towards the sky; We will thus set for you a focal point that will be pleasing to you "You shall set yourself towards the Restricted Temple; and wherever you may be, you shall all set yourselves towards it." Those who have been given the Scripture know it is the truth from their Lord. And God is not unaware of what you do.
2145 And if you come to those who have been given the Scripture with every sign they will not follow your focal point, nor will you follow their focal point, nor will some of them even follow each others focal point. And if you were to follow their desires after the knowledge that has come to you, then you would be one of the wicked.
2149 And from wherever you go out, you shall set yourself towards the Restricted Temple; it is the truth from your Lord; and God is not unaware of what you do.

This is very clear to me.

Peace.

phoenix1

You never have to face the Qibla all the time, It is just at times when you want to glorify, praise and thank the God for a period of time whether in a gathering or alone.

It is at all times.
150.And wherever you go out, you shall set yourself towards the Restricted Temple. And wherever you may be you shall set yourselves towards it; that the people will have no room for debate with you, except those of them who are wicked. You shall not fear them, but fear Me; so that I may complete My blessings upon you and athat you may be guided.
This tells me that I don't have to be in a mosque "glorifying" (how do we do that?) God to face masjid al haram. No matter where I am, whereever I go, I have to face it.

Qibla is just a symbolic show of unity with all the believers around the globe and it is not because of the direction of holiness, temple or structures.

OK, it does not create unity, but it may show unity. But who are we showing unity to??
We don't need to "show" God anything. God can see whatever is in our hearts.

However according to the Quran the Qibl is physical direction towards the Sacred temple, which is either located in mecca or Jerusalem about which I cannot choose one with certainty until authentic proofs are provided. According to current global conditions kaaba in mecca is the obvious choice. Nowhere in Quran it is ever mentioned that you have to face Qibala all the time. It is just whenever you start forth for glorifying the God from anywhere with sole purpose being unity and descipline of believers.

How do we konw that masjid al haram is in Mecca? or even Jerusalem? does the quran specify that?
Nowhere in the quran does it say that you only have to face masjid al haram during the process of "glorifying and praising" God. It only tells us to face it whereever we go. Nowhere in the quran does it say that the qibla is a symbol for unity and we need to show how unified we are.
You are adding these details to the quran.

maxq

'ARJ means ascension... not "transport"
'ARJ can be physical, spiritual, physiological etc etc...

And "Ileihi" is pointing back to the "(kullu) man fi-s samaa-i ila-a ardh" itself, not to God...

Ok, maybe I do care. But you are not understanding what I am trying to say. Relativity theory may not define the confines of the universe... it is a behavioural model that can only explain what happens at the macro-level. I am not suggesting that Quantum Theory is the final answer. case closed