Criticism of Mecca and Kaaba

unknownuser

first, define "prayer" ...

There are many verses...

005.006
PICKTHAL O ye who believe! When ye rise up for prayer, wash you faces, and your hands up to the elbows, and lightly rub your heads and (wash) your feet up to the ankles. And if ye are unclean, purify yourselves. And if ye are sick or on a journey, or one of you cometh from the closet, or ye have had contact with women, and ye find not water, then go to clean, high ground and rub your faces and your hands with some of it. Allah would not place a burden on you, but He would purify you and would perfect His grace upon you, that ye may give thanks.

004.102
PICKTHAL And when thou (O Muhammad) art among them and arrangest (their) worship for them, let only a party of them stand with thee (to worship) and let them take their arms. Then when they have performed their prostrations let them fall to the rear and let another party come that hath not worshipped and let them worship with thee, and let them take their precaution and their arms. Those who disbelieve long for you to neglect your arms and your baggage that they may attack you once for all. It is no sin for you to lay aside your arms, if rain impedeth you or ye are sick. But take your precaution. Lo! Allah prepareth for the disbelievers shameful punishment.

thegod

nun de plume wrote
What does the Quran say?

2149 And from where you got out so turn your face towards the Mosque the Forbidden/Sacred , and that it is the truth (E) from your Lord, and that God (is) not with ignoring/disregarding about what you are making/doing .

And from where you got out so turn your face towards the Mosque the Forbidden/Sacred ,

that's what the quran says! -)

and that it is the truth (E) from your Lord, and that God (is) not with ignoring/disregarding about what you are making/doing .

and it is the truth from god....

...and who deny god's words....except who do not believe? -)

savage_carrot

I guess now you want to hide behind the pubic forum excuse without explaining everywhere theory. Are you suddenly being shy and decided it is too heavy for the public forum. All our efforts and discussions in this board is about the Quraan directly or indirectly. So is it such a bad thing to ask to produce your evidence fom the Quraan

This just goes to prove that you really didn't understand a bit of what I wrote (hint it had nothing to do with hiding behind a 'pubic' forum). I have no need to post the verses since everyone can see them posted on the thread.

The analogy was to show how someone can be hearer seer knower without being physically being there. Usually I do not use analogy unless with children or adults with difficulties in understanding basic issues. Even when the Quraan does not say God is everywhere you are not even giving the alternative view even a ear when pointed clearly as Layth did in his post but stubbornly clinging to everywhere theory because its " its basic isn't it".

Why don't you actually address the verses posted and prove that it doesn't mean God is everywhere and the other points (in my previous post) raised by your 'analogy'? Try making a seperate topic for it as it is a bit OT for this thread, you can link the new topic to this one or vice versa.

phoenix1

Peace all,

A simple question

We live in a perfect Muslim utopia free of idols and want to gather to pray.

We have to turn towards ?a direction? so what do we do?

Play spin the bottle
Round robin 360 degrees
Randomly pick a direction for the day

What does the Qur?an say?

peace Nun de Plume,

Why do we have to turn toward a certain direction? why is that a necessity?
what DOES the quran say?

unknownuser

peace Nun de Plume,

Why do we have to turn toward a certain direction? why is that a necessity?
what DOES the quran say?

Peace,

Impossible not to have ?a direction? even Twirling Dervishes at any moment.

http//www.iconofile.com/events/images/cappadocia_dervishes.jpg

As to what Qur?an says?

2149 And from where you got out so turn your face towards the Mosque the Forbidden/Sacred , and that it is the truth (E) from your Lord, and that God (is) not with ignoring/disregarding about what you are making/doing .

And from where you got out so turn your face towards the Mosque the Forbidden/Sacred ,

that's what the quran says! -)

and that it is the truth (E) from your Lord, and that God (is) not with ignoring/disregarding about what you are making/doing .

phoenix1

peace
It is not a physical place and not a physical direction.

But where does it say we have to face mecca while praying? does it say that?
God surely doesn't tell us to face Mecca AT ALL TIMES?

arnoldyasin

Peca and greetings,

Dear Arnold,

You did not understand what is meant by the edges of the universe according to higher physics, universe cannot withstand the God so He is above the edges of the universe, literally. I think you need to get more knowledge about physical cosmology so that you can at least appreciate the concepts of time, space and physical matter in accordance with big bang theory. Whatever answers you have given shows that you do not even bother to study about the universe. Even Albert Einstien said that the God is supposed to be outside the boundaries of the universe. You certainly have not studied Einstien's theories in depth. You like to make metaphors of anything that you cannot understand due to your lack of knowledge.

Peace,

Where does it say the Universe cannot stand Allah's presence? Where does it say He is above the edges? And I have studied Higher Physics and now suddenly I need to study more? What do you know about me and what do you know about my knowledge? I take the Quran as authority first, not Einstein. The Quran says Allah is closer to us then our own veins, also that He is everywhere, also that He surrounds ALL things.

Ok, lets turn it around. Why do you take 'We are closer to your vein' as a metaphor. That He surrounds ALL things. Why do you take that as a metaphor? Because those verses are very clear. Your interpretation of 'sitting on the edge of the universe' is not so clear as those verses. Please explain.

warner

Peace Arnold

Quote AY The Quran says Allah is closer to us then our own veins, also that He is everywhere, also that He surrounds ALL things.

In which verse does it say God is everywhere ?

You possibly referred to the following verses when you mentioned "closer to us than our veins",

50 16
Yusuf Ali It was We who created man and We know what dark suggestions his soul makes to him for We are nearer to him than (his) jugular vein.

50 17
Yusuf Ali Behold two (guardian angels) appointed to learn (his doings) learn (and note them) one sitting on the right and one on the left.

50 18
Yusuf Ali Not a word does he utter but there is a sentinel by him ready (to note it).

Is the jugular vein the closest things known to man today ? The jugular vein is closer to which part of the man most ?

What is the smallest particle God surrounds ? Does he surround me entirely or the atoms and I am made of ?

Do you mean he physically surrounds everything ?

abrar

Peace and greetings,

Dear maxq,

As astronomers were collecting data on the Universe based on their observations, theorists were busy developing models that attempted to explain the cosmos. Recently equipped with Albert Einstien's Theory of Relativity, Einstein was one of the first to attempt an explanation of the physical Universe. Einstein believed the Universe to have a static, uniform, isotropic distribution of matter. Einstein's own calculations however proved to result in the exact opposite, an oscillating universe that had the potential for expansion or contraction. He was certain that the universe was stable. Einstein was compelled to amend his original equation. He used the term cosmological constant, which created a spherical, four-dimensional closed universe

Closed Universe

When scientists talk of a closed universe, they refer to a universe which possesses enough matter at a sufficient density to close-up, or warp spacetime to the amount of complete curvature. It means that the escape velocity at the outer boundary would equal "c", or the speed of light.

Strictly speaking, a closed universe invokes the geometry of space. The closed universe exists inside a surface area where the outer radius equals the escape velocity of the speed of light. Nothing from the inside of this universe can possibly escape (unless tunnelling or wormholes can play their tricks). This geometric curvature also traps and confines the matter and energy contents of the universe.

By the C-R theory, if the entire contents of the universe are contained inside the Active Zone portion inside a giant Black- Hole, then the total mass + energy content of the universe can not decrease over time. This confinement would seem to supersede the Second Law of Thermodynamics, as well.

The C-R theory maintains that it is not just a lucky coincidence that the universe appears to be almost closed. The C-R theory predicts that our universe is an Active Zone, entirely contained within a universe sized Black-Hole. If any type of a Neutral-Zone still exists outside of the Active Zone (our universe, too), then the Active Zone will always contain the proper mix of mass at the density to remain exactly critical. That implies that our universe is always closed, and is always exactly of the right mass and density combination to perfectly close up the universe.

Trying to picture a closed (finite) universe is in some ways even harder than trying to picture an open (infinite) universe because it is easy to mislead yourself. For example, people often compare a two-dimensional closed universe to the surface of a balloon. This analogy is helpful because such a surface has the property of being periodic in all directions, and it is easy to picture the expansion of such a universe by imagining the balloon being blown up. In fact, this analogy is like the rubber sheet analogy I used before, except now the sheet has been wrapped up to form a sphere. The problem is that this picture immediately leads to the question of what is inside the balloon.

This question comes from taking the analogy too literally. Nothing in general relativity says that a two-dimensional closed universe would have to exist as a sphere inside a three-dimensional space; the theory only says that such a universe would have certain properties (e.g. periodicity) in common with such a sphere. For this reason I think it is useful to keep the balloon in mind as a convenient analogy but it is ultimately best to think of the closed universe as a three-dimensional space with the strange property that things which go off to the right eventually come back again from the left.

What does expansion mean in a closed universe? Since this universe has a finite size, it makes sense to talk about that size increasing. Again suppose that there is now a galaxy every million light years. Suppose also that if I were to head off in a straight line I would travel 100 billion light years before coming back to where I started, passing about 100,000 galaxies on the way. If I take the same journey billions of years later, the number of galaxies won't have changed but the distances between them will have doubled, so the total distance for the round trip will now be 200 billion light years.

The Big Rip is a cosmological hypothesis about the ultimate fate of the Universe, in which the elements of the universe, from galaxies to atoms, are progressively torn apart by the expansion of the universe.

The hypothesis relies crucially on the type of dark energy in the universe. The key value is the equation of state w, the ratio between the dark energy pressure and its energy density. At w < 1, the universe will eventually be pulled apart. Such energy is called phantom energy, a more extreme form of quintessence.

In a phantom energy-dominated universe the "fabric" of the universe expands at an ever increasing rate. However, this implies that the size of the observable universe is continually shrinking; the distance to the edge of the observable universe which is moving away at the speed of light from any point gets ever closer. When the size of the observable universe is smaller than any particular structure, then no interaction between the furthest parts of the structure can occur, neither gravitational nor electromagnetic (nor weak or strong), and they will be, for all intents and purposes, "ripped" apart. Once universal expansion has ripped apart structures even at Planck length, no interaction at all is possible, the entropy of the universe is at maximum, and time therefore effectively ends.

If the hypothesis holds, the first structures to be separated from each other would be the galaxies. Arguably, this is what is happening right now, with galaxies moving outside the observable universe at about 13.7 billion light years away. Individual galaxies such as the Milky Way would be gravitationally unbound about 60 million years before the end; the Solar system, approximately three months before it; stars and planets, in the last minutes. The authors of the hypothesis calculate that this end would lie at approximately 35 billion years after the Big Bang, or 20 billion years from now.

Photoelectric Effect

1905 was a good year for Einstein. He managed to solve three of the outstanding problems of physics the photoelectric effect, Brownian motion, and special theory of relativity. These three publications have become known as the "Einstein trilogy."
Prior to 1905 researchers noted that current was proportional to the intensity of light striking the surface of a metal. The maximum kinetic energy of electron does not depend on intensity but rather on the frequency of the light. Einstein realized Planck's idea of light appearing as quanta (bundles) was the key to understanding this photoelectric mystery. If the wavelength is short enough, the electron cannot escape. The important thing is the energy of the bundle and not number of bundles (brightness). The photoelectric effect is recognized as the first scientific work utilizing quantum mechanics.
Einstein could never accept some of the revolutionary ideas of quantum mechanics ("God does not play dice&quot. When reminded in 1927 that he revolutionized science 20 years earlier, Einstein replied, "A good joke should not be repeated too often."

I agree with scientists that focus more on the theory of relativity than the Quantum theory. Stress on Quantum theory models leads to open ended models of the universe which are the biggest conjectures for an infinite universe. I strongly favour the ideas of Albert Einstien who never agreed with Quantum theory models based on infinite probabilities. Athiests use Quantum theory models as an excuse that an all knowing God does not exist. Modern Quantum theory is based on Scientific conjectures of those scientists who deliberately are passionate to believe that the God is not all knowledgable, events are not in His control. Modern Quantum theory scientists cannot prove with absolute reasoning whether relativity theory or Quantum theory is 100% correct. They are searching for a theory of everything, which even Einstien kept searching but concluded that it was bound to be a failure.

http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_everything

maxq

Salam Abrar,
I respect your analysis, but I am of the opinion that Einstein's theory of relativity is only an approximation for the macro-level, and will never be able to explain the confines of the universe.

Salam Warner,
Sorry for digressing, but I am not at all satisfied with this translation of 5017

When two demands from the right and from the left grasp (him) at a standstill (demand him to act in their way)

and of 5017 is pointing back to of 5016 explaining how man/woman whispers to him/herself...

If 5017 referred to two angels who are the witnesses, 5018 would have read

is referring to God's inscribed law... the same that is referred to as "The Inscribed" law of cause and effect, in Chapter 105.

It may also be of interest to you that yameem and shimaal does not always refer to a physical direction.

In fact, it is saying that one side demands him to be agree with/abide by something (from the root ShML), and the other demands him to resort to something (from the root YMM).

warner

Peace be with you

Brother maxq

I use Yusuf Ali/Pickthal translations because only these 2 I have in my PC which I can easily copy and paste. I do not agree with some of their translations or interpretations.

Thank you for the correction.

abrar

Peace and greetings,

Dear Maxq,

In my view Quran stresses on speed of light so Einstien's theory of relativity is more reliable.

As the universe expands, the density of matter inside it decreases. Yet relativity says that the questions of whether the universe is infinite or finite and of its ultimate fate depend on its density. Suppose the density of the universe is greater than 10-29 g/cm3, meaning the universe is finite. What happens when the expansion of the universe causes the density to drop below that value? The answer is that the critical density changes with time, so that by the time our universe has dropped below that particular value the critical density itself will be lower still. (In fact the critical density drops faster than the actual density, so that if our current density is twice the critical density it will at later times be four times it, and so forth.) In other words, if we are currently above the critical density we will always continue to be so until the balance is disturbed by the God to bring an end of the universe.

The universe's fate is intimately connected to its shape which, in turn, depends on a single number, Omega the ratio of the average mass density of the universe to the critical value required to just maintain equilibrium.

The expansion of a closed universe, with an Omega greater than one, will slow down until it reaches a maximum size, when it begins its inward collapse. Like a video of the Big Bang and expansion run backward, the universe will become denser and hotter until it ends in an infinitely hot, infinitely dense Big Crunch.

Omega seems to be close to 1 according to NASA's 2006 report so the shape of the universe is flat.

Flat Universe

In a flat universe, all of the local curvature and local geometry is flat. In general it can be described by Euclidian space, however there are some spatial geometries which are flat and bounded in one or more directions. These include, in two dimensions, the cylinder and the torus. Similar spaces in three dimensions also exist.

If there is just enough matter in the universe for its gravitational force to bring the expansion associated with the big bang to a stop in an unknown time, the universe is said to be flat. The flat universe is the dividing line between an open universe(beyond the edge of the universe) and a closed universe.

Most theorists believe that the universe is flat.

Why is the Universe flat and not spherical?

My question involves the Universe is flat theory. If there was a big bang why would the Universe be flat? I would think that the Big Bang would result in a sphere shape mass of energy, light, matter, heat, radiation, etc. and whatever else expanding outward while maintaining the shape of the sphere.

The meaning of the Big Bang has been very often misunderstood. It is thought that something exploded somewhere and then the exploded part expanded to where we are currently. This is not correct. Before the Big Bang, there was no space or time. So, there is nothing "outside" the Big Bang. The Universe simply expanded from a very small volume into a huge volume, and this expansion is occuring even today. So, the place where we are right now corresponds to some place in a very small volume in the very early Universe. Hence, the Big Bang occured EVERYWHERE in the Universe. It occured at all places including the place where we are right now.

Why does the Universe look flat?

This was one of the perplexing questions in cosmology for a long time. Today, most astronomers believe in the theory of inflation (and there are pieces of evidence supporting this). According to this theory, the Universe underwent exponential expansion about 10-30 seconds after the Big Bang. The result was that something of the size of an atom expanded to the size of the solar system by the end of the inflationary epoch.

If this were the case, irrespective of the original geometry of the Universe, it would appear flat to us. The analogy will be to take a balloon; we can easily see it to be rounded; now blow the balloon to a very large volume and then put a small ant on its surface. The ant will think that it is on a sheet; it cannot detect the curvature. To put this in another way, the distances that we probe are way too small to detect any possible curvature in the Universe.

If as you say "the distances that we probe are way too small to detect any possible curvature in the Universe" ... how can we accept recent "proofs" of a flat universe? Are all attempts to prove the flatness or otherwise of the universe limited to data collected from the observable universe? If so, and we suppose our view to be equivalent that of a short sighted ant on earth, surely it must be an impossibility to find such a proof, unless of course information can travel faster than light.

First, you have to distinguish between "universe" and "observable universe". Technically, "universe" constitutes everything that exists, while "observable universe" constitutes everything that exists within our horizon (that is, the volume of the universe within which light has had time to reach us). Every observation we can ever make is confined to the observable universe, and we have no way of knowing for sure what's happening beyond the horizon. But many people use "universe" as shorthand for "observable universe", which can create some confusion. So when we say "WMAP provides strong evidence that the universe is flat", we really mean "WMAP provides strong evidence that the observable universe is flat".

http//curious.astro.cornell.edu/question.php?number=171

abrar

Peace and greetings,

Dear Maxq ,

Here is how Quran stresses on the theory of relativity.

Speed of light 12000 Lunar Orbits/Earth Day

angels are low density creatures, and that God created them to travel at light speeds. They move at any speed from zero up to the speed of light. It is the angels who carry out God's orders.

(Allah) Rules the cosmic affair from the heavens to the Earth. Then this affair travels to Him a distance in one day, at a measure of one thousand years of what you count.
It is the angels who carryout these orders (see Arabic wording at footnote ). Hence in 1 day, the angels will travel a distance of 1000 years of what they counted. Those people back then followed the lunar calendar and counted 12 lunar months each year. These months are related to the moon and not related to the sun. Since this verse is referring to distance, then Allah is saying that angels travel in one day the same distance that the moon travels in 12000 lunar orbits. Outside gravitational fields this speed turned out to be the known speed of light.

When we compare the speed of light in vacuum with 12000 Lunar Orbits / Earth Day inside the gravitational field of the sun we get 11% difference. When we compare them outside the gravitational field of the sun we get zero% difference

For the Earth-moon system to be outside gravitational fields then the distance to the sun has to increase to infinity. But as the distance to the sun increases, the difference in energy causes the length of the lunar orbit to change. When the Earth-moon system exits the solar system 12000 Lunar Orbits / Earth Day becomes equal to the speed of light.

This equation also turned out to be a constant forever!

The Earth-moon system covers an angle ? around the sun each cycle (sidereal lunar month). Without the gravitational field of the sun the lunar orbit cannot change direction but rather floats in a straight path to distant stars.
Original Direction to Stars

Lunar Orbit

The lunar orbit changes direction with respect to stars by the same angle it orbits the sun.

Lunar Orbit

The lunar orbit changes direction with respect to stars by the same angle it orbits the sun.Original Direction to Stars

http//C\ARCADE\New Folder\untitled.jpg

Lunar Orbit

The lunar orbit changes direction with respect to stars by the same angle it orbits the sun.

Every point in this orbit has a certain magnitude and a certain direction. As the moon heads to the sun it speeds up, and as it heads away from the sun it slows down. This creates a sector of the orbit where the moon is speeding up. But as the Earth goes around the sun, the position of the sun relative to Earth with respect to stars is changing. This makes the sector where the moon is speeding up move forward inside the orbit such that it points to the sun again; similarly the sector where the moon is slowing down moves forward inside the orbit such that it points away from the sun again. Hence the entire orbit changes direction with respect to stars by the same angle it orbits the sun (twist). This means that the orbit is influenced by a net rotational force (like torque around Earth). As the distance to the sun increases to infinity, ? decreases to zero and this force decreases to zero. When we vectorially remove the energy gained from this force we can calculate the total energy and hence the length of the lunar orbit outside gravitational fields.

Time

This table below shows the lunar month and the Earth day in both sidereal system (with respect to stars) and synodic (with respect to sun)

Period
Synodic (sun)
Sidereal (stars)

Earth day t
24 hours = 86400 sec
23 h 56 min 4.0906 sec = 86164.0906 sec

Lunar Month T
29.53059 days
27.321661 days = 655.71986 hours

When astronomers study the energy of orbits they use the sidereal system (with respect to stars), that is, the moon has to return to the same position with respect to stars and not return to the same position with respect to the sun. Similarly, Moslems use the sidereal system (with respect to stars) in their proof For the Earth-moon system to be outside gravitational fields then the distance to the sun has to increase to infinity. And as the distance to the sun increases to infinity the sun becomes just another star, that is, the lunar month with respect to the sun becomes equal to lunar month with respect to stars and Earth day with respect to the sun becomes equal to Earth day with respect to stars (the synodic periods become equal to the sidereal periods).

Distance

Distance traveled by angels in one day = 12000 x Distance traveled by moon during one orbit

? C t' = 12000 L'

Where

C
Is the speed of angels, which we intend to calculate and then compare to the known speed of light (no external forces, no acceleration, no deceleration).

t'
Is the Earth Day defined as the time of one rotation of the Earth about its axis with respect to the stars (sidereal); i.e. 23 hr, 56 min, 4.0906 sec = 86164.0906sec.

L'
Is the length of the lunar orbit outside gravitational fields (no external forces, no acceleration, no deceleration).

Length of Lunar Orbit

Length of lunar orbit = Velocity x Time (L = V T)

The velocity of the moon is not constant. NASA measured the spontaneous velocity of the moon at various instances throughout its orbit. These measurements show that the velocity of the moon varies considerably (from 3470 km/hr up to 3873 km/hr); which means that the moon accelerates and decelerates continuously. The average lunar velocity is Vavg = 3682 km/hr.

The lunar orbit relative to Earth is a low eccentricity ellipse. Most astronomy textbooks calculate the length of the lunar orbit manually by the following equivalent circle method The average orbital radius is R = 384267 km, so the length (L) of this elliptical orbit relative to Earth is

L = V T = 2 R

? V = 2 R / T

Substituting R = 384267 km and T = sidereal lunar month = 655.71986 hr

V = (2 x 3.l4l593 x 384267) / 655.71986 = 3682.092 km/hr

Although this velocity is correct relative to Earth, this velocity is under the influence of the gravitational pull of the sun. We can vectorially calculate the velocity of the moon relative to Earth without the gravitational pull of the sun and hence the new length of the lunar orbit

The work done by the gravitational field of the sun by creating a net rotational force on the lunar orbit (twist) is
http//C\ARCADE\New Folder\untitled2.jpg
Components of compounded vector V = vector in the isolated Earth-moon system (no twist) plus vector acquired from the gravitational field of the sun (twist)
Original Direction
to Stars
Vector V

Earth
New Direction a

?
V' = V cosine ?
Vector in
isolated system
V sine ?
?
Components of compounded vector V = vector in the isolated Earth-moon system (no twist) plus vector acquired from the gravitational field of the sun (twist)
Original Direction
to Stars
Vector V

Earth
New Direction after one cycle

In the isolated Earth-moon system (no sun), the moon's isolated vector remains in the original direction with respect to stars (no twist); but in the compounded system (with sun), the moon's compounded vector changes direction by angle ? with respect to stars each cycle around Earth (twist). This means that the moon's orbital energy is the vectorial sum of the intrinsic energy of Earth-moon system (kinetic energy of Earth's spin transferred to the lunar orbit by ocean friction; see how below) plus the energy acquired from this twist.

As the distance to the sun increases to infinity the lunar orbit loses this twist; but without the energy gained from this twist the orbital radius decreases to R' = Rcos? (see proof at footnote ). Hence the length of the lunar orbit becomes L' = 2R' = 2Rcos? = Lcos? (i.e. 12000 L' / t' = 12000 Lcos? / t&#039.

Speed of Angels

So finally we can calculate the speed of angels outside gravitational fields and compare it to the known speed of light 299792.458 km/s

C t' = 12000 L'

And L' = L cos? = V T cos?

C t' = 12000 V T cos?

C = (12000 V T cos? ) / t'

Substituting the NASA sidereal values of the periods T and t' (from above table); ? is 26.9295 degrees and could be manually calculated at this footnote ; cos? = 0.8915645, we arrive at the speed of angels as claimed in the Quran

C = (12000 x 3682.092 x 655.71986 x 0.8915645) / 86164.0906

C = 299792.5 km/s

Time Dilation
For an object to move it needs to accelerate; but acceleration causes clocks to run slower, the stronger the acceleration the slower the clock.

The Quran states another verse in which angels traveling at a certain velocity, appear to experience slower time than humans. But this agrees with Einstein?s theory of special relativity, which says that a faster moving object appears to experience slower time. Moslems use Einstein?s theory of special relativity with the following verse in the Quran to assert that angels indeed accelerate up to the speed of light

The angels and the Spirit ascend to Him in a day, the measure of which is fifty thousand years.
Here angels will experience 1 day while humans will measure it as 50,000 years (time vs. time and not time vs. distance as the previous lunar verse). However, according to the theory of special relativity, given this time difference (time dilation), we can calculate the speed at which that object traveled. We can verify if those angels really accelerate up to the speed of light, as claimed by Moslems, or not. Outside gravitational fields it is

(u ^ 2 ) / ( c ^ 2 ) - (t ^ 2) / (to ^ 2) = 1

(Where to is the time measured for a mover by a mover; t is the time measured for a mover by a stationary frame; v is the velocity of the mover relative to the stationary observer)

to is the time experienced by angels (1 day).

t is the time as measured by humans (50,000 lunar years x12 lunar months/lunar year x 27.321661 days/lunar month).

v is the velocity of angels in this case (which we intend to calculate and then compare to the known speed of light).

c is the known speed of light 299792.458 km/s, the speed of light in vacuum.

From the above equation we can solve for the unknown velocity

v = 299792.4579999994 km / s

In isolated systems all external forces are screened out. This reveals the intrinsic characteristics, relations and capabilities of the system, that is, what the Earth-moon system can do on its own without any external forces.

Sun's gravitational field along with Earth's motion around the sun produce a net rotational force on the lunar orbit (like torque around Earth). Without this gravitational twist the moon's isolated orbital length would only be L' = Lcos?. This is because the total energy of the lunar orbit (kinetic + potential) is the vectorial sum of the energy acquired from Earth's spin plus the energy acquired from this force.

For the Earth-moon system to be outside gravitational fields then the distance to the sun has to increase to infinity. And as the distance to the sun increases to infinity the lunar orbit loses this twist; but this also means that the moon would no longer have enough kinetic energy to stay long at the compounded radius R and isolated velocity V' = Vcos? (too high too slow), instead it starts a spiral descent to the isolated radius R' = Rcos? and accelerates to a final velocity of http//C\ARCADE\New Folder\untitled3.JPEGThe ratio of the orbital binding energies (the ratio of the work required to move the moon against gravity to infinity) is
http//C\ARCADE\New Folder\untitled4.JPEG

This means that without the energy gained from this twist the orbital radius decreases to R' = Rcos?. Hence the length of the lunar orbit becomes L' = 2R' = 2Rcos? = Lcos? (i.e. 12000 L' / t' = 12000 Lcos? / t&#039 and the orbital period decreases.

Simply put Outside the gravitational field of the sun all observers will see the speed of light equal to 12000 Lunar Orbits/ Earth Day.

An observer on Earth sees this force as rotational around Earth, however an observer on the sun sees this same force as radial towards the sun (not towards Earth). But no matter from where observers are looking they will all see this same force doing the same work. However since the distance to the sun is not a constant then if it is defined inside the gravitational field of the sun and not outside it then this definition will be wrong one billion years from now. So which definition is better? A definition true today? Or a definition true forever?

The energy for this isolated velocity V' came from a reaction force from Earth (see ocean friction above) and not from sun's gravitational force. As the moon acquires more energy from Earth's spin it does not actually speed up, instead it slows down because it orbits at a higher altitude (R' increases); the orbital period increases and the length of the lunar orbit increases. As R' reaches R, the isolated lunar orbit would have acquired the same radius and velocity as the one achieved with the assistance of the sun (R' = R & V' = V) but with a slower rotating Earth.

The entire lunar orbit changes direction with respect to stars by the same angle it orbits the sun. Since these two angles are equal, we can simply calculate the angle around the sun (because it is easier) and then use it in the other. We can calculate ? from the period of one heliocentric revolution of the Earth-moon system (365.2421987 days)

? = 27.32166088 days x 360 degrees / 365.2421987 days = 26.92952225 degrees

Recalling the second postulate of Special Relativity declared by Einstein (1905) "The velocity c of light in vacuum is the same in all inertial frames of reference in all directions and depend neither on the velocity of the source nor on the velocity of the observer". Einstein's theory of special relativity says that the speed of light in vacuum is always the same (at 299,792.458 km/s) but this is true only for systems that are inertial, which means not accelerating. From Newton's second law if forces exist implies acceleration exists; this means that special relativity is valid only when no forces are acting; thus it cannot be used when there is a gravitational force present. Albert Einstein himself emphasized this in his paper written in 1917 "The results of the special relativity hold only so long as we are able to disregard the influence of gravitational fields on the phenomena". Therefore for the results of special relativity to hold the systems should not be accelerating (no gravitational forces).

In 1915 (10 years after special relativity) Einstein developed another theory called General Relativity that deals with gravitational fields and according to this latest theory the velocity of light appears to vary with the intensity of the gravitational field. For example, an observer outside gravitational fields measures the speed of light locally (in his location) at 299792.458 km/s but when he looks towards a black hole he sees the speed of light there to be as slow as a few km/s. At the same time an observer freefalling into that black hole (zero-g) measures the speed of light locally (in his location) at 299792.458 km/s; when he looks towards the black hole he sees the speed of light there much slower; when he looks away from the black hole he sees the speed of light there much faster. If he tries to resist his freefall into that black hole (by firing his rockets for example) he will not measure the speed of light locally anymore at 299792.458 km/s; instead the stronger the g-force that he feels the faster light appears to him. Again when he looks towards the black hole he sees the speed of light there much slower; when he looks away from the black hole he sees the speed of light there much faster. In any case, freefalling or not, he will never see the speed of light outside gravitational fields at 299792.458 km/s. Finally, there is no difference between the effects of g-forces experienced from these rockets and the effects of g-forces experienced when standing on planets, stars... hence an observer standing on a black hole measures the speed of light locally (in his location) much faster than 299792.458 km/s; when he looks towards outside gravitational fields he sees the speed of light there a zillion km/s.

To see the steps how Einstein theorized that the speed of light in a gravitational field is actually not a constant, but rather a variable depending upon the reference frame of the observer

jonny_k

Peace,
Strange that this comes up just at a time period where im also doubting that any physical direction is meant. Moreover though i still pray according to tradition the mathematical code pattern regarding the rakat string 24434 has been falsified successfully. It was nothing but a math property in this case. The rest of code-19 in Quran remains marvellous if not increases. Again the amazing concept of in this case mind evolution is occuring. Just wanna clarify the mecca becca issue. Quran says "first bait" at "becca" anyways. Now what is "becca" then since a town/spot by this name does exist in Jerusalem. GOD Bless!

phoenix1

peace all,
I don't think we should be getting into all these scientific theories and coming up with new ones.
I don't think mathematical codes or scientific knowledge is required to understand the quran. It was written 1400 years ago. People back then didn't have super computers and large telescopes.

so going back on topic...

Does the quran say we should turn toward masjid al haram during salat?
or does it say that we should turn toward masjid al haram ALL the time?

maxq

you are basing your argument on the premise that you know what angels are...

Peace and greetings,

Dear Maxq ,

Here is how Quran stresses on the theory of relativity.

Speed of light 12000 Lunar Orbits/Earth Day

angels are low density creatures, and that God created them to travel at light speeds. They move at any speed from zero up to the speed of light. It is the angels who carry out God's orders.

(Allah) Rules the cosmic affair from the heavens to the Earth. Then this affair travels to Him a distance in one day, at a measure of one thousand years of what you count.
It is the angels who carryout these orders (see Arabic wording at footnote ). Hence in 1 day, the angels will travel a distance of 1000 years of what they counted. Those people back then followed the lunar calendar and counted 12 lunar months each year. These months are related to the moon and not related to the sun. Since this verse is referring to distance, then Allah is saying that angels travel in one day the same distance that the moon travels in 12000 lunar orbits. Outside gravitational fields this speed turned out to be the known speed of light.

When we compare the speed of light in vacuum with 12000 Lunar Orbits / Earth Day inside the gravitational field of the sun we get 11% difference. When we compare them outside the gravitational field of the sun we get zero% difference

For the Earth-moon system to be outside gravitational fields then the distance to the sun has to increase to infinity. But as the distance to the sun increases, the difference in energy causes the length of the lunar orbit to change. When the Earth-moon system exits the solar system 12000 Lunar Orbits / Earth Day becomes equal to the speed of light.

This equation also turned out to be a constant forever!

The Earth-moon system covers an angle ? around the sun each cycle (sidereal lunar month). Without the gravitational field of the sun the lunar orbit cannot change direction but rather floats in a straight path to distant stars.
Original Direction to Stars

Lunar Orbit

The lunar orbit changes direction with respect to stars by the same angle it orbits the sun.

?
?
Sun
New Direction
http//Original Direction to Stars

Lunar Orbit

The lunar orbit changes direction with respect to stars by the same angle it orbits the sun.
Original Direction to Stars

Lunar Orbit

The lunar orbit changes direction with respect to stars by the same angle it orbits the sun.

Every point in this orbit has a certain magnitude and a certain direction. As the moon heads to the sun it speeds up, and as it heads away from the sun it slows down. This creates a sector of the orbit where the moon is speeding up. But as the Earth goes around the sun, the position of the sun relative to Earth with respect to stars is changing. This makes the sector where the moon is speeding up move forward inside the orbit such that it points to the sun again; similarly the sector where the moon is slowing down moves forward inside the orbit such that it points away from the sun again. Hence the entire orbit changes direction with respect to stars by the same angle it orbits the sun (twist). This means that the orbit is influenced by a net rotational force (like torque around Earth). As the distance to the sun increases to infinity, ? decreases to zero and this force decreases to zero. When we vectorially remove the energy gained from this force we can calculate the total energy and hence the length of the lunar orbit outside gravitational fields.

Time

This table below shows the lunar month and the Earth day in both sidereal system (with respect to stars) and synodic (with respect to sun)

Period
Synodic (sun)
Sidereal (stars)

Earth day t
24 hours = 86400 sec
23 h 56 min 4.0906 sec = 86164.0906 sec

Lunar Month T
29.53059 days
27.321661 days = 655.71986 hours

When astronomers study the energy of orbits they use the sidereal system (with respect to stars), that is, the moon has to return to the same position with respect to stars and not return to the same position with respect to the sun. Similarly, Moslems use the sidereal system (with respect to stars) in their proof For the Earth-moon system to be outside gravitational fields then the distance to the sun has to increase to infinity. And as the distance to the sun increases to infinity the sun becomes just another star, that is, the lunar month with respect to the sun becomes equal to lunar month with respect to stars and Earth day with respect to the sun becomes equal to Earth day with respect to stars (the synodic periods become equal to the sidereal periods).

Distance

Distance traveled by angels in one day = 12000 x Distance traveled by moon during one orbit

? C t' = 12000 L'

Where

C
Is the speed of angels, which we intend to calculate and then compare to the known speed of light (no external forces, no acceleration, no deceleration).

t'
Is the Earth Day defined as the time of one rotation of the Earth about its axis with respect to the stars (sidereal); i.e. 23 hr, 56 min, 4.0906 sec = 86164.0906sec.

L'
Is the length of the lunar orbit outside gravitational fields (no external forces, no acceleration, no deceleration).

Length of Lunar Orbit

Length of lunar orbit = Velocity x Time (L = V T)

The velocity of the moon is not constant. NASA measured the spontaneous velocity of the moon at various instances throughout its orbit. These measurements show that the velocity of the moon varies considerably (from 3470 km/hr up to 3873 km/hr); which means that the moon accelerates and decelerates continuously. The average lunar velocity is Vavg = 3682 km/hr.

The lunar orbit relative to Earth is a low eccentricity ellipse. Most astronomy textbooks calculate the length of the lunar orbit manually by the following equivalent circle method The average orbital radius is R = 384267 km, so the length (L) of this elliptical orbit relative to Earth is

L = V T = 2 R

? V = 2 R / T

Substituting R = 384267 km and T = sidereal lunar month = 655.71986 hr

V = (2 x 3.l4l593 x 384267) / 655.71986 = 3682.092 km/hr

Although this velocity is correct relative to Earth, this velocity is under the influence of the gravitational pull of the sun. We can vectorially calculate the velocity of the moon relative to Earth without the gravitational pull of the sun and hence the new length of the lunar orbit

The work done by the gravitational field of the sun by creating a net rotational force on the lunar orbit (twist) is
http//?
V' = V cosine ?
Vector in
isolated system
V sine ?
?
Components of compounded vector V = vector in the isolated Earth-moon system (no twist) plus vector acquired from the gravitational field of the sun (twist)
Original Direction
to Stars
Vector V

Earth
New Direction a

?
V' = V cosine ?
Vector in
isolated system
V sine ?
?
Components of compounded vector V = vector in the isolated Earth-moon system (no twist) plus vector acquired from the gravitational field of the sun (twist)
Original Direction
to Stars
Vector V

Earth
New Direction after one cycle

In the isolated Earth-moon system (no sun), the moon's isolated vector remains in the original direction with respect to stars (no twist); but in the compounded system (with sun), the moon's compounded vector changes direction by angle ? with respect to stars each cycle around Earth (twist). This means that the moon's orbital energy is the vectorial sum of the intrinsic energy of Earth-moon system (kinetic energy of Earth's spin transferred to the lunar orbit by ocean friction; see how below) plus the energy acquired from this twist.

As the distance to the sun increases to infinity the lunar orbit loses this twist; but without the energy gained from this twist the orbital radius decreases to R' = Rcos? (see proof at footnote ). Hence the length of the lunar orbit becomes L' = 2R' = 2Rcos? = Lcos? (i.e. 12000 L' / t' = 12000 Lcos? / t&#039.

Speed of Angels

So finally we can calculate the speed of angels outside gravitational fields and compare it to the known speed of light 299792.458 km/s

C t' = 12000 L'

And L' = L cos? = V T cos?

C t' = 12000 V T cos?

C = (12000 V T cos? ) / t'

Substituting the NASA sidereal values of the periods T and t' (from above table); ? is 26.9295 degrees and could be manually calculated at this footnote ; cos? = 0.8915645, we arrive at the speed of angels as claimed in the Quran

C = (12000 x 3682.092 x 655.71986 x 0.8915645) / 86164.0906

C = 299792.5 km/s

Time Dilation
For an object to move it needs to accelerate; but acceleration causes clocks to run slower, the stronger the acceleration the slower the clock.

The Quran states another verse in which angels traveling at a certain velocity, appear to experience slower time than humans. But this agrees with Einstein?s theory of special relativity, which says that a faster moving object appears to experience slower time. Moslems use Einstein?s theory of special relativity with the following verse in the Quran to assert that angels indeed accelerate up to the speed of light

The angels and the Spirit ascend to Him in a day, the measure of which is fifty thousand years.
Here angels will experience 1 day while humans will measure it as 50,000 years (time vs. time and not time vs. distance as the previous lunar verse). However, according to the theory of special relativity, given this time difference (time dilation), we can calculate the speed at which that object traveled. We can verify if those angels really accelerate up to the speed of light, as claimed by Moslems, or not. Outside gravitational fields it is

(u ^ 2 ) / ( c ^ 2 ) - (t ^ 2) / (to ^ 2) = 1

(Where to is the time measured for a mover by a mover; t is the time measured for a mover by a stationary frame; v is the velocity of the mover relative to the stationary observer)

to is the time experienced by angels (1 day).

t is the time as measured by humans (50,000 lunar years x12 lunar months/lunar year x 27.321661 days/lunar month).

v is the velocity of angels in this case (which we intend to calculate and then compare to the known speed of light).

c is the known speed of light 299792.458 km/s, the speed of light in vacuum.

From the above equation we can solve for the unknown velocity

v = 299792.4579999994 km / s

In isolated systems all external forces are screened out. This reveals the intrinsic characteristics, relations and capabilities of the system, that is, what the Earth-moon system can do on its own without any external forces.

Sun's gravitational field along with Earth's motion around the sun produce a net rotational force on the lunar orbit (like torque around Earth). Without this gravitational twist the moon's isolated orbital length would only be L' = Lcos?. This is because the total energy of the lunar orbit (kinetic + potential) is the vectorial sum of the energy acquired from Earth's spin plus the energy acquired from this force.

For the Earth-moon system to be outside gravitational fields then the distance to the sun has to increase to infinity. And as the distance to the sun increases to infinity the lunar orbit loses this twist; but this also means that the moon would no longer have enough kinetic energy to stay long at the compounded radius R and isolated velocity V' = Vcos? (too high too slow), instead it starts a spiral descent to the isolated radius R' = Rcos? and accelerates to a final velocity of http//.

The ratio of the orbital binding energies (the ratio of the work required to move the moon against gravity to infinity) is