Criticism of Mecca and Kaaba
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Peace Abrar,
so Einstein didn't actually believe that God isn't part of this universe, correct?"According to Quran the God is established on the Throne, the edge of the universe where He is The Manifest. In the rest of the universe the God is all seeing, witnessing and present everywhere as The Hidden."
what is meant by "The Manifest?" is that a title? and why is he The Manifest only on the edge?
And why is he "The Hidden" in the rest of the universe?
to me, 573 is saying that God is everything that we see(manifest) and everything we don't see (the hidden) INside our universe, obviously.
And there is no physical throne. A throne signifies that God rules over the universe. God is the king and he has made all the laws. Everything comes from God. If there was a physical throne, we would have seen it by now.
and how does Einstein support this theory of yours? -
Peace and greetings,
Dear maxq,
The God is the Lord of the great throne. The Throne is the existance of the partition between the Manifest God and the universe which is only His creation. The throne is not a metaphor as stated by Arnold, but is where the finiteness of the universe comes to an end. NASA scientists have made great research on the nature of space and matter and shape of the universe. According to NASA our universe has a physical geometry and the throne is not a metaphor as stated by Arnold who impatiently forms mataphors for things he cannot understand. The Throne encompasses the shape of the universe.
http//map.gsfc.nasa.gov/m_uni/uni_101shape.html
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shape_of_the_universe
Global geometry
Global geometry covers the geometry, in particular the topology, of the whole Universe - both the observable Universe and beyond. While the local geometry does not determine the global geometry completely, it does limit the possibilities, particularly a geometry of a constant curvature. For a flat spatial geometry, the scale of any properties of the topology is arbitrary and may or may not be directly detectable. For spherical and hyperbolic spatial geometries, the probability of detection of the topology by direct observation depends on the spatial curvature. Using the radius of curvature as a scale, a small curvature of the local geometry, with a corresponding scale greater than the observable horizon, makes the topology difficult to detect. A spherical geometry may well have a radius of curvature that can be detected. In a hyperbolic geometry the radius scale is unlikely to be within the observable horizon.
Two strongly overlapping investigations within the study of global geometry are
whether the Universe is infinite in extent or is a compact space
whether the Universe has a simply or non-simply connected topologyCompactness of the global shape
A compact space is a general topological definition that encompasses the more applicable notion of a bounded metric space. In cosmological models, it requires either one or both of the space has positive curvature (like a sphere), and/or it is "multiply connected", or more strictly non-simply connected.
If the 3-manifold of a spatial section of the Universe is compact then, as on a sphere, straight lines pointing in certain directions, when extended far enough in the same direction will reach the starting point and the space will have a definable "volume" or "scale". If the geometry of the Universe is not compact, then it is infinite in extent with infinite paths of constant direction that, generally do not return and the space has no definable volume, such as the Euclidean plane.
If the spatial geometry is spherical, the topology is compact. Otherwise, for a flat or a hyperbolic spatial geometry, the topology can be either compact or infinite.
Flat Universe
In a flat universe, all of the local curvature and local geometry is flat. In general it can be described by Euclidian space, however there are some spatial geometries which are flat and bounded in one or more directions. These include, in two dimensions, the cylinder and the torus. Similar spaces in three dimensions also exist.
Spherical Universe
A positively curved universe is described by spherical geometry, and can be thought of as a three-dimensional hypersphere.
One of the endeavors in the analysis of data from the Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe (WMAP) is to detect multiple "back-to-back" images of the distant Universe in the cosmic microwave background radiation. Assuming the light has enough time since its origin to travel around a bounded Universe, multiple images may be observed. While current results and analysis do not rule out a bounded topology, if the Universe is bounded then the spatial curvature is small, just as the spatial curvature of the surface of the Earth is small compared to a horizon of a thousand kilometers or so.
Based on analyses of the WMAP data, cosmologists during 2004-2006 focused on the Poincar? dodecahedral space (PDS), but also considered horn topologies to be compatible with the data.
Hyperbolic Universe
A hyperbolic universe (frequently but confusingly called "open" is described by hyperbolic geometry, and can be thought of as something like a three-dimensional equivalent of an infinitely extended saddle shape. For hyperbolic local geometry, many of the possible three-dimensional spaces are informally called horn topologies.
The ultimate fate of an open universe is that it will continue to expand forever, ending in a Heat Death, a Big Freeze or a Big Rip.
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there are many anti-islamic sites which are the source of information of many non-muslims....
...but interestingly most of the non-muslims dont dispute that the temple in mecca was called the kaaba since before the quran was revealed..so they cannot claim that the appellation was attributed to it after the quran was revealed! -)
...some other non-muslims do dispute it...but like always they re short of proofs! -)
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The God is the Lord of the great throne. The Throne is the existance of the partition between the Manifest God and the universe which is only His creation. The throne is not a metaphor as stated by Arnold, but is where the finiteness of the universe comes to an end.
I don't see how the metaphor put forth above is NOT a metaphor! Lol.
Or should I say, size and dimensioning is a limited concept...
Oh, I completely agree. Form implies limits inherent. This goes without saying.
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Peace be with you
Peace Nadia,
Let me try to explain my opinion using an example and an analogy. If we take one of the countries with a highly advanced military and sophisticated intelligence gathering capabilities, say US, which is possibly in the foremost in this area needs to gather information about a person. Available civilian and military technology today makes US able to monitor each and every second of the persons life, his surrounding and his actions by using satellites in space, intelligence gathering and eavesdropping and reconnaissance equipment and drones, cameras, listening devices and maybe a few chips implanted in the persons body can know and see what is happening inside the body as well. Maybe hidden scanning equipment can scan the person?s body and brain. Actually the available military technology is more advanced than what civilians know. With today?s Information and communication capabilities within seconds all this data and images can be transferred to end of our solar system or closer to home, to a computer screen in Pentagon. Now imagine if these technologies were perfected and advanced for another 100 or 1000 or 10,000 years, how much of information about this person will the US be able to gather. Probably they will be able to hear everything and see everything possibly know everything of this person. Maybe without the person?s knowledge scan his brain to retrieve what is stored in his memory, what he dreams and what he thinks; maybe they will know what each and every cell in his body does. I am talking about 10,000 years of advanced technology as an example. Possibly the intelligent gatherer?s will know more about the person and his body and even his thoughts than the person himself. In this sense the US or the pentagon does not have to be every where but they will hear and see and be aware of what is going on with a person 10,000 miles away quite clearly and in depth. This is establishing intelligent presence without having to open CIA office next to your room.
How advanced do you think Gods technology is compared to what man will have in another 1000 or more years. A technology perfect and advanced for millions of years, besides He being the creator. So God while being where He is, is still the all seer all hearer all knower and He is closer to us than our jugular vein. Also the Quraan says for each person there is a protector over them and also there are malaika to record their actions etc. In this sense God does not have to be everywhere in every private place we visit and every hidden action we do, He does not have to be physically present, but He will know everything from where He is because someone is recording all our actions maybe in camera as evidence.
Also it is not suitable for Gods majesty to follow us or be with us in every private and hidden action of our lives. He is too exalted to be with us under the sheet. For this reason the Malaika are mobilized to witness and record each and every circumstances.
The above explains how God can be hearer, seer, knower and all aware without having to be everywhere. For the same reason perhaps the Quraan does not say He is everywhere.
Peace Arnold,
The following is a better verse than the ones you tried to establish the everywhere theory.
58 6 On the day when Allah will raise them all together and inform them of what they did. Allah hath kept account of it while they forgot it. And Allah is Witness over all things.
58 7 Hast thou not seen that Allah knoweth all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth? There is no secret conference of three but He is their fourth, nor of five but He is their sixth, nor of less than that or more but He is with them wheresoever they may be; and afterward, on the Day of Resurrection, He will inform them of what they did Lo! Allah is Knower of all things.
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Peace warner,
Also it is not suitable for Gods majesty to follow us or be with us in every private and hidden action of our lives. He is too exalted to be with us under the sheet.
This is an arbitrary division of what God can or cannot do based on human sentiment/comparision of what one thinks exalted means to them.
For this reason the Malaika are mobilized to witness and record each and every circumstances.
God doesn't actually do it but has minions doing it for Him, otherwise He wouldn't know what is actually happening? There is no reason why something cannot have different reasons for it being done the way that it is and simultaneously contradict God's being everywhere. The malaika are part of the plan which doesn't necessarily mean that recording is their sole purpose because God can't, isn't and/or won't do it Himself and wouldn't know unless they were present.
The above explains how God can be hearer, seer, knower and all aware without having to be everywhere. For the same reason perhaps the Quraan does not say He is everywhere.
That is your interpretation of what the verses are saying. God isn't out there, He is everywhere. He doesn't need minions to know. There are no go betweens to God's knowledge and majesty. He cannot be compared, put in a box or said to possess a form. He is infinite.
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warner wrote
The following is a better verse than the ones you tried to establish the everywhere theory.hmmm..dont think i v read a verse which says god is "everywhere"! -)
i know that pantheists (universe is god) hold that belief...(cuz god is a part of u n u part of god...sez 'em)..
...any ideas about deists (god doesnt interfere)...or jews or christians or zoroastrians?
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Peace and Greetings,
Dear Warner,
The God is all aware, all seeing, and all hearing not because of angels which are a creation of God. The God is personally witnessing evrything as The Hidden. Angels are just creatures working for the Glory of God and not for doing the perception work of the God. The God percieves everything privately all the time but throughout the Universe He is present as The Hidden. He is the Manifest above the Throne, the edge of the universe. The God's presence and existance is beyond anybody's comprehension, you cannot close in on the God anywhere but for Him the whole universe is close, He is The Hidden , The Manifest. No realm of energy, space, matter, spirit, and time can define Him. He is the one who defines evrything according to His laws. The God is both the Hidden and the Manifest at the same time. Very complex, but He is not part of any realm that defines your thinking or universe. The God is the only reality and evrything else is mortal and perishable. The angels, the spirit, souls, matter, energy, space, time and even the great Throne are all perishable accept the God.
Chapter 28 verse 88
"And do not call besides God any god, there is no god but He. Everything is perishable except His presence"
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Peace Nadia and Abrar,
Abrar, I said in the beginning of the post it is only an analogy and an example.
Quote Nadia
This is an arbitrary division of what God can or cannot do based on human sentiment/comparision of what one thinks exalted means to them.I did not say in my post that God can not do something or He needs the Malaika to help Him or without them He can not hear or see. What I said was He is not everywhere because the Quraan does not say this. And it is very crude. So are you telling me God is in your toilet and under the sheet when people are having sex? (I do not like to sound crude when talking of God and avoided so far but you give me no choice even when I explain as simple as I can)
Quote Nadia
God doesn't actually do it but has minions doing it for Him, otherwise He wouldn't know what is actually happening? There is no reason why something cannot have different reasons for it being done the way that it is and simultaneously contradict God's being everywhere. The malaika are part of the plan which doesn't necessarily mean that recording is their sole purpose because God can't, isn't and/or won't do it Himself and wouldn't know unless they were present.I did not say sole purpose of Malaika is recording. Where did you get this idea from?
Did I say God wouldn?t know unless for Malaika. I guess you are confused or seeing things.
Read the Quraan and tell us what things God does and what things Malaika do.
Does the Quraan say God is doing the recording or Malaika.
God can talk directly to a messenger at the same time He can send a message through a Malaika.Quote Nadia
That is your interpretation of what the verses are saying. God isn't out there, He is everywhere. He doesn't need minions to know. There are no go betweens to God's knowledge and majesty. He cannot be compared, put in a box or said to possess a form. He is infinite.Who said He needs ?minions? and who said there should be go betweens to Gods majesty and knowledge. You keep seeing things. Forget about interpretations quote the verse He is everywhere. My puppy just did poop. Are you saying he is there too? Got to go.
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I did not say in my post that God can not do something or He needs the Malaika to help Him or without them He can not hear or see. What I said was He is not everywhere because the Quraan does not say this. And it is very crude. So are you telling me God is in your toilet and under the sheet when people are having sex? (I do not like to sound crude when talking of God and avoided so far but you give me no choice even when I explain as simple as I can)
Lol. Are you saying God is shy of people who have sex? Or when they poop? What are you on about? Did God not create you and all the things you do? When adulterers are having at it, God averts His eyes? There is NO crude or any such divisions with God, He sees ALL you do. Why else did you bring the malaika in then? What was the analogy hoping to acheive please tell me, especially since you wrote again in this post that God is NOT in the space we call a toilet or 'under the sheets'?
I did not say sole purpose of Malaika is recording. Where did you get this idea from?
Did I say God wouldnt know unless for Malaika. I guess you are confused or seeing things.
Read the Quraan and tell us what things God does and what things Malaika do.
Does the Quraan say God is doing the recording or Malaika.
God can talk directly to a messenger at the same time He can send a message through a Malaika.If you read my post carefully, it has an entire sentence constructed around not necessarily which means there is nothing contradicting God from being everywhere no matter what the malaika are doing or what their purpose is. God doesn't 'need' the malaika to know which you yourself apparently admit here, so what exactly are you trying to say, ease my confusion? God makes the malaika record the 'crude' deeds and doesn't know Himself unless they were there? Or God doesn't need the malaika to know jack and already does?
Who said He needs minions and who said there should be go betweens to Gods majesty and knowledge. You keep seeing things. Forget about interpretations quote the verse He is everywhere. My puppy just did poop. Are you saying he is there too? Got to go.
You said this bringing in your 'crudeness' issues and the malaika that record things because God isn't as 'crude' as to actually be present under the sheets. Using your own analogy, if God wasn't even physically present yet knew and saw everything from a distance, what makes you think that your toilet and what happens there, or your sheets and what happens therein are free of His knowledge to the exact detail and at the exact moment? Would that make Him less crude than actually being present? No, of course it wouldn't, but thats okay huh? Yes, God is present everywhere whether your dog poops or a human poops. There are verses that have been posted, everyone can make up their own mind regarding what God does or does not do and where He is or isn't present. If you want to argue for a God that's way out there, you can do a much better job I suppose than these weak analogies.
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Hi Nadia,
You are going on that God is everywhere for which you can not produce a verse from the Quran. Sow me the verse please. Read close, I did not say He is shy or He can not. I said He does not because the Quraan supports this and not god is in my poop theory. So if god is everywhere and in the poop as well next time you flush it down the toilet be concerned you will be flushing more than you intended.
How many times does the Quraan mentions hearer, seer , knower, aware . But why Not ?everywhere? ?
Our perception of God is different. And for your still you have not produced a verse from the Quraan .
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You are going on that God is everywhere for which you can not produce a verse from the Quran. Sow me the verse please. Read close, I did not say He is shy or He can not. I said He does not because the Quraan supports this and not god is in my poop theory.
So when analogies fail, it's back to the harping on about produce a verse. The verses have been produced in this thread alone, go contest them if you would rather question God's omnipresence than the logic of facing a stone cube. The quran does not support your 'God disappears when there's 'poop' around theory'. That's just you talking.
So if god is everywhere and in the poop as well next time you flush it down the toilet be concerned you will be flushing more than you intended.
Perhaps a trial on a test audience first, rather than on a public forum, would be better for lines such as these to see if they really 'get' the wit. It's far more ironic if it was a serious statement.
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Again, a limited concept, a macro level definition... you are merely stating the possibilities astrophysicists have suggested.
The ultimate fate of an open universe is that it will continue to expand forever, ending in a Heat Death, a Big Freeze or a Big Rip.
If the universe has limited entropy...
5147 And it is We Who have built the Universe, and behold, We are steadily expanding it.
So it may very well be that the universe keeps expanding indefinitely. Hence, the answer may not be in the direction you are looking.
226 Behold, Allah does not shy away from citing any kind of allegory, even of a mosquito or beyond. Those who attain belief by way of reason appreciate the allegories and know that therein is contained some teaching of the Truth from their Lord. On the other hand, those who have chosen to disbelieve, try to ridicule, saying, "What could Allah mean to teach by this similitude?" Thus His Law of Guidance lets go astray many and shows the lighted Road to many. But He never lets go astray any except those who drift away from Reason.
Peace and greetings,
Dear maxq,
The God is the Lord of the great throne. The Throne is the existance of the partition between the Manifest God and the universe which is only His creation. The throne is not a metaphor as stated by Arnold, but is where the finiteness of the universe comes to an end. NASA scientists have made great research on the nature of space and matter and shape of the universe. According to NASA our universe has a physical geometry and the throne is not a metaphor as stated by Arnold who impatiently forms mataphors for things he cannot understand. The Throne encompasses the shape of the universe.
http//map.gsfc.nasa.gov/m_uni/uni_101shape.html
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shape_of_the_universe
Global geometry
Global geometry covers the geometry, in particular the topology, of the whole Universe - both the observable Universe and beyond. While the local geometry does not determine the global geometry completely, it does limit the possibilities, particularly a geometry of a constant curvature. For a flat spatial geometry, the scale of any properties of the topology is arbitrary and may or may not be directly detectable. For spherical and hyperbolic spatial geometries, the probability of detection of the topology by direct observation depends on the spatial curvature. Using the radius of curvature as a scale, a small curvature of the local geometry, with a corresponding scale greater than the observable horizon, makes the topology difficult to detect. A spherical geometry may well have a radius of curvature that can be detected. In a hyperbolic geometry the radius scale is unlikely to be within the observable horizon.
Two strongly overlapping investigations within the study of global geometry are
whether the Universe is infinite in extent or is a compact space
whether the Universe has a simply or non-simply connected topologyCompactness of the global shape
A compact space is a general topological definition that encompasses the more applicable notion of a bounded metric space. In cosmological models, it requires either one or both of the space has positive curvature (like a sphere), and/or it is "multiply connected", or more strictly non-simply connected.
If the 3-manifold of a spatial section of the Universe is compact then, as on a sphere, straight lines pointing in certain directions, when extended far enough in the same direction will reach the starting point and the space will have a definable "volume" or "scale". If the geometry of the Universe is not compact, then it is infinite in extent with infinite paths of constant direction that, generally do not return and the space has no definable volume, such as the Euclidean plane.
If the spatial geometry is spherical, the topology is compact. Otherwise, for a flat or a hyperbolic spatial geometry, the topology can be either compact or infinite.
Flat Universe
In a flat universe, all of the local curvature and local geometry is flat. In general it can be described by Euclidian space, however there are some spatial geometries which are flat and bounded in one or more directions. These include, in two dimensions, the cylinder and the torus. Similar spaces in three dimensions also exist.
Spherical Universe
A positively curved universe is described by spherical geometry, and can be thought of as a three-dimensional hypersphere.
One of the endeavors in the analysis of data from the Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe (WMAP) is to detect multiple "back-to-back" images of the distant Universe in the cosmic microwave background radiation. Assuming the light has enough time since its origin to travel around a bounded Universe, multiple images may be observed. While current results and analysis do not rule out a bounded topology, if the Universe is bounded then the spatial curvature is small, just as the spatial curvature of the surface of the Earth is small compared to a horizon of a thousand kilometers or so.
Based on analyses of the WMAP data, cosmologists during 2004-2006 focused on the Poincar? dodecahedral space (PDS), but also considered horn topologies to be compatible with the data.
Hyperbolic Universe
A hyperbolic universe (frequently but confusingly called "open" is described by hyperbolic geometry, and can be thought of as something like a three-dimensional equivalent of an infinitely extended saddle shape. For hyperbolic local geometry, many of the possible three-dimensional spaces are informally called horn topologies.
The ultimate fate of an open universe is that it will continue to expand forever, ending in a Heat Death, a Big Freeze or a Big Rip.
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Peace Nadia
I guess now you want to hide behind the pubic forum excuse without explaining everywhere theory. Are you suddenly being shy and decided it is too heavy for the public forum. All our efforts and discussions in this board is about the Quraan directly or indirectly. So is it such a bad thing to ask to produce your evidence fom
the QuraanSorry, nne of the verses quoted in this thread said God is everywhere.
The analogy was to show how someone can be hearer seer knower without being physically being there. Usually I do not use analogy unless with children or adults with difficulties in understanding basic issues. Even when the Quraan does not say God is everywhere you are not even giving the alternative view even a ear when pointed clearly as Layth did in his post but stubbornly clinging to everywhere theory because its " its basic
isn't it".Peace Abrar
Did you quote the verse in red to say God is everywhere ?
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Peace all,
A simple question
We live in a perfect Muslim utopia free of idols and want to gather to pray.
We have to turn towards ?a direction? so what do we do?
- Play spin the bottle
- Round robin 360 degrees
- Randomly pick a direction for the day
What does the Qur?an say?