Criticism of Mecca and Kaaba
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Peace Tanveer
If Al Masjid ul Haram means ?Institution of Hearing and Obeying the Forbidden? is it only the ?forbidden? we should hear and obey in this institution. Are we only to hear and obey forbidden things in the Quraan. Is it necessary for me to say that there are many things in the Quraan which are very important but does not fall in to the category ?forbidden?.
If this does not necessarily have to be a religious institution (or an Islamic institution, like you pointed out) will an institution exist only to deal with ?forbidden? things? What kind of institutes deal with only forbidden things other than the police.
What kind of forbidden things will all other institutes you sighted as example be discussing? Will they only discuss forbidden things or much more?
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Peace tg,
Submission/sajada is to The God, and how can we submit to The God ? by hearing/reading/understanding the revelations of The God and then obeying and submitting according to their message, and that is what I meant.
Qur'aan is its own dictionary and makes clear what "sujud" is. The verses through which I showed that "sajada" is "hearing and obeying", you didnt even read them and started to hurl accusations at me. This shows that you are not being objective and thorough and not really interested in seeking the truth, but arguing just for the sake of arguing, perhaps because of your ego ? This is not being forethoughtful. Following is what you missed and I will quote
The example of the descendants of Israel illustrates that "sujud" is non-physical and clarifies what it really means
258-59. And We said "Enter this town, and eat from it as plentifully as you wish; and enter the door 'sujadan', and say "Our load is removed", We will then forgive your mistakes, and We will increase for the good doers." But the wicked altered what was said to them for a different saying, thus We sent down upon the wicked a punishment from the heaven for what they had transgressed.
7161-162. And they were told "Reside in this town and eat from it as you please, and say "Our load is removed", and enter the gate 'sujadan', We will forgive for you your wrong doings, and We will increase for the good doers." Those who were wicked amongst them altered what was said to them with something different; so We sent to them a plague from the sky because they were wicked.
Notice how the descendents of Israel did the opposite of "sujud" by altering what was said to them instead of hearing it and actually doing it (i.e., obeying it).
Another example of people who alter what is being said is given again in verse 446
- From amongst the Jews there are those who take the words out of context, and they say "We hear and disobey, and listen but not let any listen, and look after us", in a twisting of their tongues and as a mockery of the obligation! And had they said "We hear and obey, and listen, and watch over us," it would have been better for them and more upright; but The God Has cursed them for their rejection, they do not have faith except very little.
We can see from linking 446 with 258-59 and 7161-162 that "sujud" is equivalent to "hearing and obeying".
Verses 4101-103 describe ending the /("salat" with the "sujud". Verses 56-7 also describe the "salat" and its components and end with "hearing and obeying". Once again, we see that "hearing and obeying" seems to be the equivalent to "sujud".
Youssef's dream and its realization confirm that "sujud" is non-physical and indicate that it means "hearing and obeying".
The sun, moon and planets cannot do physical prostration or even show humbleness. However, they could in Youssef's dream hear him and obey him, perhaps by altering their course according to his command. When he raised his parents on the throne, they and his siblings fell "sujadan". How can his parents be "raised" on the throne and at the same time "fall" in physical prostration? Again, the meaning is confirmed to be "hearing and obeying" Youssef and not physically falling to the ground in prostration. Verse 12100 can now be better understood
- And he raised his parents on the throne, and they became in a state of hearing and obeying him. And he said "My father, this is the interpretation of my vision from before. My Lord has made it true, and He Has been good to me that he took me out of prison and brought you out of the wilderness after the devil had placed a rift between me and my brothers. My Lord is kind to whom He wills. He is the Knowledgeable, the Wise."
Of course "sajada" automatically includes not being arrogant. One can be submissive (sajada) only when one is not arrogant, and also one of the most important requirements to be submissive is to hear and obey The God's message. Thus a more comprehensive meaning of "sujood"/submission would be "hearing and obeying The God's message in a humble manner without being arrogant", and the humility and not being arrogant is implicit in the "hearing and obeying" or "submission" part.
Thus "sujud" can be translated as "hearing and obeying"/submission/humility/not being arrogant and "al-masjid al-haram" can also be comprehensively translated as "the institution of humble submission without arrogance by hearing and obeying/implementing the restrictions/forbidden of the system", or in short "institution of submission by implementing the forbidden", or a non physical "house of al-haram", just like the upper and lower houses of Congress. The "bayt al-haram" will be the physical building in which such a "house of al-haram" holds its session, and all of us should have the "qibla"/target/goal of orienting ourselves to the truth and to establish such a "house of al-haram", and also implementing the obedience of the restrictions of the system in our lives.
Once again you have not answered a single question/comment posed to you that shows that a physical "al-masjid al-haram" is IMPOSSIBLE per the qur'aanic verses and you have failed to answer that. Your tactics clearly indicate you are not being objective and forethoughtful and are creating contradictions/inconsistencies in The God's words by your fallacious interpretations that imply that The God is asking us to do something that is impossible. I will not answer you any further until you answer the questions/comments posed to you in my earlier post.
Peace
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Peace warner,
If Al Masjid ul Haram means ?Institution of Hearing and Obeying the Forbidden? is it only the ?forbidden? we should hear and obey in this institution. Are we only to hear and obey forbidden things in the Quraan. Is it necessary for me to say that there are many things in the Quraan which are very important but does not fall in to the category ?forbidden?.
If this does not necessarily have to be a religious institution (or an Islamic institution, like you pointed out) will an institution exist only to deal with ?forbidden? things? What kind of institutes deal with only forbidden things other than the police.
What kind of forbidden things will all other institutes you sighted as example be discussing? Will they only discuss forbidden things or much more?
In an Islamic state, "al-masjid al-haram"/the institution of hearing and obeying the forbidden will be one of the various institutions, albeit the most important one. There will be other institutions of hearing and obeying (masajid) that deal with commandments other than the restrictions/forbidden. All of those institutions will hold their session in a central physical building of "al-bayt al-haram", which will be the base/"kaaba"
Peace
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Peace Tanveer
How will you explain the following verse according to your understanding.
5 2
Yusuf Ali O ye who believe! violate not the sanctity of the Symbols of Allah nor of the Sacred Month nor of the animals brought for sacrifice nor the garlands that mark out such animals nor the people resorting to the Sacred House seeking of the bounty and good pleasure of their Lord. But when ye are clear of the Sacred Precincts and of pilgrim garb ye may hunt and let not the hatred of some people in (once) shutting you out of the Sacred Mosque lead you to transgression (and hostility on your part). Help ye one another in righteousness and piety but help ye not one another in sin and rancor fear Allah for Allah is strict in punishment -
Peace Aymen,
I've taken more time reading and obviously it seems I was right when I wrote about you and I having different kiblas. My ignorance however in what was behind the subject is diminishing as I read on. I have no attachments to spinning what-so-ever. A free mind is a natural state and a beautiful one.
Thank you all.
peacefully
adjwi
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Peace and greetings,
Dear Aymen,
If you fairly believe in Archaeology without prejudice than read it below your arguments for Al for being prefixed before proper nouns are meaningless. Quran never uses Al before a proper noun.
The Goddesses Al-Uzza, Al-Lat and Menat formed a triad in pre-Islamic Arabia. They were widely worshipped from Nabatean Petra in the North to the legendary Kingdoms of Arabia Felix in the South, including Saba, the Biblical Sheba; as far east as Iran and Palmyra; and the three of them were very popular Goddesses in Mecca at the time of Mohammed. From left they are Al-Uzza, whose name means "The Mighty One", the Goddess of the Morning Star; Al-Lat, the Mother, whose name means simply "The Goddess", as Al-Lah simply means "The God"; and Manat, Crone-goddess of Fate or Time. Sometimes the three of them are referred to as the daughters of Al-Lah; sometimes Manat and Al-Lat are considered daughters of Al-Uzza.
Al-Uzza, "the Strong One", was one of the most venerated Arab Deities, and the Goddess of the morning and evening star, Venus. She had a temple at Petra (though which one that was has not been determined), and may well have been the patron Goddess of that city. Isaac of Antioch (a writer of the 5th century CE) calls Her Beltis ("Lady", a title shared by many other Semitic Goddesses), and Kaukabta, "the Star". He also says that women would invoke Al-Uzza from the rooftops, a form of worship appropriate to a Star Goddess. St. Epiphanius of the 4th century CE calls Her the mother of Dusares, the local mountain God, calling Her by the title Chaamu or Chalmous, meaning "young girl or virgin". She has connections with the acacia tree, and Her sanctuary at Nakhlah had three acacias in which She was believed to descend. She has much in common with Ishtar and Astarte as Morning and Evening Star Goddesses?they all have aspects of both Love and War Goddess, and big cats were sacred to Them. She is shown here armed as a bellatrix, standing before an acacia tree, with a caracal, or desert lynx. She was associated by the Greeks with their Aphrodite Urania, "Heavenly Aphrodite".
Al-Lat, whose name is a contraction of al-Illahat, "the Goddess", is mentioned by Herodotus as Alilat, whom he identifies with Aphrodite. She is sometimes also equated with Athene, and is called "the Mother of the Gods", or "Greatest of All". She is a Goddess of Springtime and Fertility, the Earth-Goddess who brings prosperity. She and Al-Uzza were sometimes confused, and it seems that as one gained in popularity in one area the other's popularity diminished. The sun in Arabia was called Shams and considered feminine, and may represent an aspect of Al-Lat. She had a sanctuary in the town of Ta'if, east of Mecca, and was known from Arabia to Iran. Her symbol is the crescent moon (sometimes shown with the sun disk resting in its crescent), and the gold necklace She wears is from a pendant identified to Her. As a Fertility-Goddess She bears a sheaf of wheat; and in Her hand She holds a small lump of frankincense, as Her emblem is found carved on many incense-holders.
Manat or Manawayat derives Her name from Arabic maniya, "fate, destruction, doom, death", or menata, "part, portion, that which is alloted". She is a very ancient Deity and Her cult may precede both Al-Uzza's and Al-Lat's. Her cult was widespread, though She was particularly worshipped as a black stone at Quidaid, near Mecca. She is connected with the great pilgrimage, as Her sanctuary was the starting point for several tribes. She is known from Nabatean inscriptions, and tombs were placed under Her protection, asking Her to curse violators. She is accordingly a Goddess of Death, and Maniya (Death personified) is mentioned in poetry as actively bringing a person to his or her grave, holding out the cup of death. She is shown as an old woman with a cup, and the symbols at the bottom of Her gown spell Her name in Sabaic (which does not use vowels and is written right to left), M-n-t. The waning moon is shown over Her head as the symbol of the Crone-Goddess of Death.
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Peace warner,
I have already discussed this before in this thread. Please see
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13210.msg110855#msg110855
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Peace Tanveer,
We are supposed to face "al-masjid al-haram" WHEREVER we are.
Yes when establishing regular prayers.
If wherever you mean all the time (every continuous moment) as Ayman suggested in a prior post then it is IMPOSSIBLE to face ?al-majid al-haram? mentally all the time when driving, sleeping, or reading this reply as you are doing now.
IMPOSSIBLE to have more than a single thought in your head at any one time.
Try it!
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Peace Nun de plume,
Yes when establishing regular prayers.
That is a conjecture and inventing a lie against The God. It says WHEREVER you are, not just when establishing regular prayers.
If wherever you mean all the time (every continuous moment) as Ayman suggested in a prior post then it is IMPOSSIBLE to face ?al-majid al-haram? mentally all the time when driving, sleeping, or reading this reply as you are doing now.
IMPOSSIBLE to have more than a single thought in your head at any one time.
Actually you are wrong. While I am reading your reply and while I am replying to it, my target/goal/"qibla" is "al-masjid a-haram" at all times even though I might not be thinking about it every moment, because I am trying to educate you not to set up partners with The God by prostrating to a physical idol and revering it, and also I am educating you to make your goal to refrain from the restrictions. Having something as a target/goal means as long as you are working towards achieving that goal, and as long as you are making an effort to abstain/avoid the restrictions, it is your target/focal point/"qibla". As long as it remains your overall goal, and as long as you keep refraining from the restrictions, and trying to do good deeds, and remembring One God, it is your "qibla"/target/focal point, wherever you are.
For example I might be driving to a destination to attend a session of "al-masjid al-haram", or to help an orphan, or to be kind to my parents, or to do some business equitably, or to keep a promise with a friend, or even just avoiding lewdness while driving, and I am not setting up any partners with The God, that will be my target/goal/qibla while I am driving wherever I am driving, even though I might not be thinking about it every moment. But if I am driving to reach a destination so I can cheat someone in business, or to harm a person, or to commit an act of lewdness at my destination, then even though I might be thinking about "al-masjid al-haram" while I am driving, still my focal point/target/goal will not be "al-masjid al-haram".
Similarly, I might be sleeping but my aim/target/goal is to abstain from the forbidden, so as long as I am not sleeping with someone I am not supposed to be sleeping with, or I went to bed early so I can get up early to do a good deed, or perform salat for remembrance of One God early am, my "qibla"/target/goal is "al-masjid al-haram" throughout the night, even while sleeping. But if I went to sleep with the intention to get up early am to go give false testimony somewhere, or to cheat someone in business early am, or to harm a person in am, or sleeping with someone I am not supposed to, then the whole night my "qibla" will not be "al-masjid al-haram".
Thank you for helping me in making "al-masjid al-haram" my "qibla" while I was responding to you. )
Peace
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Obviously, from the evidence, the Ansar were the Jews.
AymanPeace Ayman..
Very interesting... the Anshar (Arabic for "The Helpers" are actually Jewish or at least Bani Israil / Benei Yisreel..?
In the Quran... the anshar is somewhat connected to Jesus...
"O ye who believe, be ye Anshar Allah (God Helper) like Jesus Son Of Mary said to his follower.."
(Please help me with the reference... I'm on public terminal right now, no access to Quran D )In the Hebrew Tanakh, and also classical Christians literature (before the Roman / Catholicism period). Jesus and his follower often reference themselves as "Nozirith", in English "The Nazeers", which mistakenly translated as a name of city who actually never existed at that time (Nazareth). The Nazeers / Nozirith can be roughly translated as "the one who dedicate themselves to God's purpose". They abstain from dinking wine and also shaving their head.
And on another verse; there is also a reference to a very "Nozirith" habit, which is "abstain from shaving head / hair" until certain purpose / goal is reached.
It is more or less like this
"And ye will enter Masjidil Haram, with head shaven...."
(Please help me with the reference... I'm on public terminal right now, no access to Quran D )And the verse which refer to "Masjidil Haram" as the "kiblah" also have a strong reference to "the people of the book"... (They knew that it is from their Lord).
One point is certain by our discussion
The Anshar is actually "Nozirith" / "Jewish Christians"Salam
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Peace be on you
Peace Ayman
What is the origin of the word Muhajirin/Muhagir
Tanveer pointed to the following link on the topic ?The incorruptible mighty book? which had some excellent references from Roman Christian sources on early islam.
A must read topic for anyone interested in this subject.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=10259.0A point of interest is the mention of Masjid ( Midzgith ) as a constructed structure and of course about prayer connected to Muslims soon after Muhammad which might mean your interpretation of masjid is not correct. Also for early muslims and for Jews the word qibla meant direction of prayer according to the said references.
Also reference to Hagar means the Arabs were identified as descendants of Ismael by Chritians and Jews during the time of the Prophet or even before. So the connection to Ismael is not 8th century fabrication but a much early reference. Why do you think the Arabs were known to be descendants of Ismael and where did this start?
Your theory on Mecca not being the important place of worship as it is venerated today and Kaaba not being the black cubic structure cannot be disapproved using the Quraan. Also the Quraan does not say the Haj is to Mecca or it does not identify the rituals done there today.
But Jerusalem and the rock out crop(which may be the Kaaba) on which the Dome of the rock is built today can be a good explanation for this puzzle. What are your thoughts on this?
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Peace Tanveer,
That is a conjecture and inventing a lie against The God. It says WHEREVER you are, not just when establishing regular prayers.
Actually you are wrong. While I am reading your reply and while I am replying to it, my target/goal/"qibla" is "al-masjid a-haram" at all times even though I might not be thinking about it every moment,
No, you are contradicting yourself; NOT thinking about it every moment including during sex and other mundane human functions means you are NOT focused on it 24x7.
How exactly are you going to achieve the impossible? Why according to you does God ask the impossible?
Unless of course you agree that ?wherever? does NOT mean every perpetual moment; millisecond; etc.
wher?ev?er (hw?r-v'r, w?r-)
adv.- In or to whatever place used red pencil wherever needed.
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Salaams All,
Nun de plume ,
every moment including during sex and other mundane human functions means you are NOT focused on it 24x7.
Sorry Br but this only applies to an idol worshipper (as idols are physical) and those who try to observe the rights of others are focused to them all the time.
What do you think???
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Sorry Br but this only applies to an idol worshipper (as idols are physical) and those who try to observe the rights of others are focused to them all the time.
What do you think???
Idols are not only physical; people idolize ideologies like atheism, communism, humanism, all sorts of isms; others idolize their nationality or even their own intellect.
All Prophets/believers always had a target/goal towards doing good so why have them turn/focus on doing good works as Tanveer states above implying they had the wrong target/goal?
It was a physical turning from Jerusalem to Mecca during prayer so hypocrites who refused to do so and cling on to the old direction will be recognized.
Simple!
Peace
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Salaams Nun de plume,
All Prophets/believers always had a target/goal towards doing good so why have them turn/focus on doing good works as Tanveer states above implying they had the wrong target/goal?
Unless one is focused on doing well always, one may go off track.
Even the prophets sometimes went off track!!! For that there are articles on this site I am sure.
Or don?t you believe that haven?t you ever gone off track, I have but usually try and get back on though ? the focusing helps, I think.
And some believers even go off so far ? see the Christians and all them other people who were once believers.
God Bless.
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tanveer wrote
Submission/sajada is to The God, and how can we submit to The God ? by hearing/reading/understanding the revelations of The God and then obeying and submitting according to their message, and that is what I meant.this is what u had said
Now suppose you are hearing the verses of al-qur'aan being recited in a moderate tone, giving you the commandments of The God. How do you "sajada"/submit to them ? By hearing them and obeying them, right ?
so drawing from both ur posts...what u are saying is u "sajada"/submit to god "when you are hearing the verses of al-qur'aan being recited in a moderate tone, giving you the commandments of The God.".....is it?...what about when u are not hearing the verses being recited in a moderate tone?
Qur'aan is its own dictionary and makes clear what "sujud" is.
cool! -)
The verses through which I showed that "sajada" is "hearing and obeying", you didnt even read them and started to hurl accusations at me. This shows that you are not being objective and thorough and not really interested in seeking the truth, but arguing just for the sake of arguing, perhaps because of your ego ?
i showed ur forced linking of verses 3215 and 2573 to be a clear case of manipulation...which i allowed could be unintentional...not so sure now! -)
...but instead of coming clean u come up with this...cool! -)
This is not being forethoughtful. Following is what you missed and I will quote
a very resourceful word...had u been as forethoughtful as u want others to be...u wouldnt have jumped to a false conclusion based on ur misleading effort to link 2 verses! -)
The example of the descendants of Israel illustrates that "sujud" is non-physical and clarifies what it really means
258-59. And We said "Enter this town, and eat from it as plentifully as you wish; and enter the door 'sujadan', and say "Our load is removed", We will then forgive your mistakes, and We will increase for the good doers." But the wicked altered what was said to them for a different saying, thus We sent down upon the wicked a punishment from the heaven for what they had transgressed.
7161-162. And they were told "Reside in this town and eat from it as you please, and say "Our load is removed", and enter the gate 'sujadan', We will forgive for you your wrong doings, and We will increase for the good doers." Those who were wicked amongst them altered what was said to them with something different; so We sent to them a plague from the sky because they were wicked.
Notice how the descendents of Israel did the opposite of "sujud" by altering what was said to them instead of hearing it and actually doing it (i.e., obeying it).
notice how u make empty claims! -)
...u have simply carried over ur assumption that "sjd" is "hear and obey"...and yet u claimed that this part of ur write-up introduces something new!
they were said to enter the gate "sujjadan"...cool?
if u can...then show us how ur statement relates to sjd being "hearing and obeying"..dont just make an empty claim!
this is exactly what u did previously...and u have repeated it despite claiming that i missed something worthwhile!
Another example of people who alter what is being said is given again in verse 446
- From amongst the Jews there are those who take the words out of context, and they say "We hear and disobey, and listen but not let any listen, and look after us", in a twisting of their tongues and as a mockery of the obligation! And had they said "We hear and obey, and listen, and watch over us," it would have been better for them and more upright; but The God Has cursed them for their rejection, they do not have faith except very little.
We can see from linking 446 with 258-59 and 7161-162 that "sujud" is equivalent to "hearing and obeying".
446 Some of the Jews pervert words from their meanings saying, 'We have heard and we disobey' and 'Hear, and be thou not given to hear' and 'Observe us,' twisting with their tongues and traducing religion. If they had said, 'We have heard and obey' and 'Hear' and 'Regard us,' it would have been better for them, and more upright; but God has cursed them for their unbelief so they believe not except a few.
v can see that the verse has nothing to do with the word "sjd"...yet u have inexplicably tried to relate it to the word "sjd"! -)
i ll tell u why u did that..just in case u feel like it...cuz u have convinced urself, albeit baselessly, that "sjd" in 258-59 and 7161-162 means "hear and obey"....like i said...u make an assumption and keep drawing upon it to build further assumptions....goin around in circles where u strengthen a new assumption by "referring" and "linking" to previous assumptions! -)
...infact..the verse clearly talks about hearing...disobeying...observing...regarding....and yet there is no mention of "sjd"...hoewever, in keeping with ur previous attempt, u have tried to force a link which simply doesnt exist! -)
Verses 4101-103 describe ending the /("salat" with the "sujud".
4101-103 "describe" ending the salat with sujud?
4 101 When you travel, during war, you commit no error by shortening your Contact Prayers (Salat), if you fear that the disbelievers may attack you. Surely, the disbelievers are your ardent enemies.
4 102 When you are with them, and lead the Contact Prayer (Salat) for them, let some of you stand guard; let them hold their weapons, and let them stand behind you as you prostrate. Then, let the other group that has not prayed take their turn praying with you, while the others stand guard and hold their weapons. Those who disbelieved wish to see you neglect your weapons and your equipment, in order to attack you once and for all. You commit no error, if you are hampered by rain or injury, by putting down your weapons, so long as you remain alert. GOD has prepared for the disbelievers a shameful retribution.
4 103 Once you complete your Contact Prayer (Salat), you shall remember GOD while standing, sitting, or lying down. Once the war is over, you shall observe the Contact Prayers (Salat); the Contact Prayers (Salat) are decreed for the believers at specific times.
that was a lie!
Verses 56-7 also describe the "salat" and its components and end with "hearing and obeying".
5 6 You, you those who believed, if you started/got up to the prayers, so wash with water your faces, and your hands to the elbows, and rub/wipe with your heads and your feet to the two joints/ankle bones, and if you wereimpure/unclean , so be purified/cleaned , and if you were sick/diseased or on (a) journey/trip/voyage or one of you came from the safe hidden depression in the ground (toilet), or you touched and felt repeatedly the women, so you did not find water, so wipe your hands and face with dust good/pure dust, so rub/wipe with your faces and your hands from it, God does not want to make/put on you strain/hardship, and but He wants to purify you mentally and physically and to complete (E) His blessing on you, maybe/perhaps you thank/be grateful.
the only "component" 56 describes is the cleansing before the salat....another lie!
5 7 Remember GOD's blessing upon you, and His covenant that He covenanted with you you said, 'We hear and we obey.' You shall observe GOD; GOD is fully aware of the innermost thoughts.
what does that have to do with salat? since when has "zkr" become interchangeable with salat?
...another lie! -)
Once again, we see that "hearing and obeying" seems to be the equivalent to "sujud".
another lie! -)
Youssef's dream and its realization confirm that "sujud" is non-physical and indicate that it means "hearing and obeying".
The sun, moon and planets cannot do physical prostration or even show humbleness. However, they could in Youssef's dream hear him and obey him, perhaps by altering their course according to his command.
so they can "hear" him and dance around....hmmm!
...interesting u brought up this verse....cuz i have seen a dream in which the moon and the stars fall down at my feet....yes they literally seemed to be falling from the sky onto the earth...right at my feet...and i saw them just the size u normally see them in the sky...and there they were...sitting pretty on the earth! -)
...if i can see a dream in which the moon and stars are placed at my feet...i dont see why joeseph could not see a dream in which the sun, moon and the planets were at his feet! -)
while u are at it...lemme know how the peepz of sheba heard and obeyed the sun! -)
When he raised his parents on the throne, they and his siblings fell "sujadan". How can his parents be "raised" on the throne and at the same time "fall" in physical prostration?
did they get glued to the throne? who told u it was at the "same time"? it's simply ur imagination...not quran! -)
Again, the meaning is confirmed to be "hearing and obeying" Youssef and not physically falling to the ground in prostration. Verse 12100 can now be better understood
- And he raised his parents on the throne, and they became in a state of hearing and obeying him. And he said "My father, this is the interpretation of my vision from before. My Lord has made it true, and He Has been good to me that he took me out of prison and brought you out of the wilderness after the devil had placed a rift between me and my brothers. My Lord is kind to whom He wills. He is the Knowledgeable, the Wise."
again...continuing ur trend of fase assumptions and forced conclusions...u have produced yet another mistranslation! -)
Of course "sajada" automatically includes not being arrogant. One can be submissive (sajada) only when one is not arrogant, and also one of the most important requirements to be submissive is to hear and obey The God's message. Thus a more comprehensive meaning of "sujood"/submission would be "hearing and obeying The God's message in a humble manner without being arrogant", and the humility and not being arrogant is implicit in the "hearing and obeying" or "submission" part.
u have done nothing to show that ur understanding of sjd as hearing an d obeying has any basis in the quran! -)
Thus "sujud" can be translated as "hearing and obeying"/submission/humility/not being arrogant and "al-masjid al-haram" can also be comprehensively translated as "the institution of humble submission without arrogance by hearing and obeying/implementing the restrictions/forbidden of the system", or in short "institution of submission by implementing the forbidden", or a non physical "house of al-haram", just like the upper and lower houses of Congress. The "bayt al-haram" will be the physical building in which such a "house of al-haram" holds its session, and all of us should have the "qibla"/target/goal of orienting ourselves to the truth and to establish such a "house of al-haram", and also implementing the obedience of the restrictions of the system in our lives.
i ll sum up what has transpired so far
u claimed that sajada is "hearing and obeying" and that masjid is a government institution...following which i asked for verses/references!
...u responded by quoting verses 3215, 2573, 258-59, 17161-162, 446 and 12100! besides u talked about 17107, 4101-103 and 56-7!
17107 is perhaps clear about physical prostration! -)
...v saw ur failed attempt to force an unjustified link between 3215 and 2573 to come up with an assumption!
u next tried to impress that 258-59, 17161-162 and 4166 somehow strengthen ur assumptions...however, as v have seen all u have done is made empty claims that this is opposite of that and this links to that...none of which u have established...simply claimed!
next come 401-103 and 56-7...wonder what u tried to convey by making false statements about verses of quran!
u tried to make a case out of 12100, but ur idea of celestial bodies hearing joeseph and altering their courses doesnt seem to me to be any less absurd than those bodies falling down at joeseph's feet! -)
...moreover...u have to explain how the people of sheba heard and obeyed the sun! -)
another part of ur attempted justification was "al-masjid al-azhar" issuing fatwas! -)
...however like i ve already said...it is the fatwa committee that issues fatwas...
...but even if v accept the wrong usage that "al-masjid al-azhar" issues fatwas...and understand that not the physical mosque but it's committee issues fatwas...u still have to concede a physical mosque to which this committee relates!
likewise...if v allow almasjid alharam to be a committee..u will have to make provision for a physical almasjid alharam to which this committee is related! -)
do u have anything to prove ur claim that sjd is "hearing and obeying" or that masjid is "government institution"? -)
Once again you have not answered a single question/comment posed to you that shows that a physical "al-masjid al-haram" is IMPOSSIBLE per the qur'aanic verses and you have failed to answer that. Your tactics clearly indicate you are not being objective and forethoughtful and are creating contradictions/inconsistencies in The God's words by your fallacious interpretations that imply that The God is asking us to do something that is impossible. I will not answer you any further until you answer the questions/comments posed to you in my earlier post. #
if this post of urs describes how u use the book of god to "answer"... hmmm ! -)
by the way...i havent seen u "translate" al-masjid al-azhar...shoudnt u say "the institution/implementaion of the hearing and obeying of the shining/splendid/luminous/flourishing"? -)
just how difficult it is for peepz to do as god says! -)
peace tanveer! peace! -)
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tanveer wrote
Submission/sajada is to The God, and how can we submit to The God ? by hearing/reading/understanding the revelations of The God and then obeying and submitting according to their message, and that is what I meant.this is what u had said
Now suppose you are hearing the verses of al-qur'aan being recited in a moderate tone, giving you the commandments of The God. How do you "sajada"/submit to them ? By hearing them and obeying them, right ?
so drawing from both ur posts...what u are saying is u "sajada"/submit to god "when you are hearing the verses of al-qur'aan being recited in a moderate tone, giving you the commandments of The God.".....is it?...what about when u are not hearing the verses being recited in a moderate tone?
Qur'aan is its own dictionary and makes clear what "sujud" is.
cool! -)
The verses through which I showed that "sajada" is "hearing and obeying", you didnt even read them and started to hurl accusations at me. This shows that you are not being objective and thorough and not really interested in seeking the truth, but arguing just for the sake of arguing, perhaps because of your ego ?
i showed ur forced linking of verses 3215 and 2573 to be a clear case of manipulation...which i allowed could be unintentional...not so sure now! -)
...but instead of coming clean u come up with this...cool! -)
This is not being forethoughtful. Following is what you missed and I will quote
a very resourceful word...had u been half as forethoughtful as u want others to be...u wouldnt have jumped to a false conclusion based on ur misleading effort to link 2 verses! -)
The example of the descendants of Israel illustrates that "sujud" is non-physical and clarifies what it really means
258-59. And We said "Enter this town, and eat from it as plentifully as you wish; and enter the door 'sujadan', and say "Our load is removed", We will then forgive your mistakes, and We will increase for the good doers." But the wicked altered what was said to them for a different saying, thus We sent down upon the wicked a punishment from the heaven for what they had transgressed.
7161-162. And they were told "Reside in this town and eat from it as you please, and say "Our load is removed", and enter the gate 'sujadan', We will forgive for you your wrong doings, and We will increase for the good doers." Those who were wicked amongst them altered what was said to them with something different; so We sent to them a plague from the sky because they were wicked.
Notice how the descendents of Israel did the opposite of "sujud" by altering what was said to them instead of hearing it and actually doing it (i.e., obeying it).
notice how u make empty claims! -)
...u have simply carried over ur assumption that "sjd" is "hear and obey"...and yet u claimed that this part of ur write-up introduces something new!
they were said to enter the gate "sujjadan"...
if u can...then show us how ur statement relates to sjd being "hearing and obeying"..dont just make an empty claim!
this is exactly what u did previously...and u have repeated it despite claiming that i missed something worthwhile!
Another example of people who alter what is being said is given again in verse 446
- From amongst the Jews there are those who take the words out of context, and they say "We hear and disobey, and listen but not let any listen, and look after us", in a twisting of their tongues and as a mockery of the obligation! And had they said "We hear and obey, and listen, and watch over us," it would have been better for them and more upright; but The God Has cursed them for their rejection, they do not have faith except very little.
We can see from linking 446 with 258-59 and 7161-162 that "sujud" is equivalent to "hearing and obeying".
446 Some of the Jews pervert words from their meanings saying, 'We have heard and we disobey' and 'Hear, and be thou not given to hear' and 'Observe us,' twisting with their tongues and traducing religion. If they had said, 'We have heard and obey' and 'Hear' and 'Regard us,' it would have been better for them, and more upright; but God has cursed them for their unbelief so they believe not except a few.
v can see that the verse has nothing to do with the word "sjd"...yet u have inexplicably tried to relate it to the word "sjd"! -)
...infact..the verse clearly talks about hearing...disobeying...observing...regarding....and yet there is no mention of "sjd"...hoewever, in keeping with ur previous attempt, u have tried to force a link which simply doesnt exist! -)
Verses 4101-103 describe ending the /("salat" with the "sujud".
4101-103 "describe" ending the salat with sujud?
4 101 When you travel, during war, you commit no error by shortening your Contact Prayers (Salat), if you fear that the disbelievers may attack you. Surely, the disbelievers are your ardent enemies.
4 102 When you are with them, and lead the Contact Prayer (Salat) for them, let some of you stand guard; let them hold their weapons, and let them stand behind you as you prostrate. Then, let the other group that has not prayed take their turn praying with you, while the others stand guard and hold their weapons. Those who disbelieved wish to see you neglect your weapons and your equipment, in order to attack you once and for all. You commit no error, if you are hampered by rain or injury, by putting down your weapons, so long as you remain alert. GOD has prepared for the disbelievers a shameful retribution.
4 103 Once you complete your Contact Prayer (Salat), you shall remember GOD while standing, sitting, or lying down. Once the war is over, you shall observe the Contact Prayers (Salat); the Contact Prayers (Salat) are decreed for the believers at specific times.
that was a lie!
Verses 56-7 also describe the "salat" and its components and end with "hearing and obeying".
5 6 You, you those who believed, if you started/got up to the prayers, so wash with water your faces, and your hands to the elbows, and rub/wipe with your heads and your feet to the two joints/ankle bones, and if you wereimpure/unclean , so be purified/cleaned , and if you were sick/diseased or on (a) journey/trip/voyage or one of you came from the safe hidden depression in the ground (toilet), or you touched and felt repeatedly the women, so you did not find water, so wipe your hands and face with dust good/pure dust, so rub/wipe with your faces and your hands from it, God does not want to make/put on you strain/hardship, and but He wants to purify you mentally and physically and to complete (E) His blessing on you, maybe/perhaps you thank/be grateful.
the only "component" 56 describes is the cleansing before the salat....another lie!
5 7 Remember GOD's blessing upon you, and His covenant that He covenanted with you you said, 'We hear and we obey.' You shall observe GOD; GOD is fully aware of the innermost thoughts.
what does that have to do with salat? since when has "zkr" become interchangeable with salat?
...another lie! -)
Once again, we see that "hearing and obeying" seems to be the equivalent to "sujud".
another lie! -)
Youssef's dream and its realization confirm that "sujud" is non-physical and indicate that it means "hearing and obeying".
The sun, moon and planets cannot do physical prostration or even show humbleness. However, they could in Youssef's dream hear him and obey him, perhaps by altering their course according to his command.
so they can "hear" him and dance around....hmmm!
...interesting u brought up this verse....cuz i have seen a dream in which the moon and the stars fall down at my feet....yes they literally seemed to be falling from the sky onto the earth...right at my feet...and i saw them just the size u normally see them in the sky...and there they were...sitting pretty on the earth! -)
...if i can see a dream in which the moon and stars are placed at my feet...i dont see why joseph could not see a dream in which the sun, moon and the planets were at his feet! -)
while u are at it...lemme know how the peepz of sheba heard and obeyed the sun! -)
When he raised his parents on the throne, they and his siblings fell "sujadan". How can his parents be "raised" on the throne and at the same time "fall" in physical prostration?
did they get glued to the throne? who told u it was at the "same time"? it's simply ur imagination...not quran! -)
Again, the meaning is confirmed to be "hearing and obeying" Youssef and not physically falling to the ground in prostration. Verse 12100 can now be better understood
- And he raised his parents on the throne, and they became in a state of hearing and obeying him. And he said "My father, this is the interpretation of my vision from before. My Lord has made it true, and He Has been good to me that he took me out of prison and brought you out of the wilderness after the devil had placed a rift between me and my brothers. My Lord is kind to whom He wills. He is the Knowledgeable, the Wise."
again...continuing ur trend of fase assumptions and forced conclusions...u have produced yet another mistranslation! -)
Of course "sajada" automatically includes not being arrogant. One can be submissive (sajada) only when one is not arrogant, and also one of the most important requirements to be submissive is to hear and obey The God's message. Thus a more comprehensive meaning of "sujood"/submission would be "hearing and obeying The God's message in a humble manner without being arrogant", and the humility and not being arrogant is implicit in the "hearing and obeying" or "submission" part.
u have done nothing to show that ur understanding of sjd as hearing an d obeying has any basis in the quran! -)
Thus "sujud" can be translated as "hearing and obeying"/submission/humility/not being arrogant and "al-masjid al-haram" can also be comprehensively translated as "the institution of humble submission without arrogance by hearing and obeying/implementing the restrictions/forbidden of the system", or in short "institution of submission by implementing the forbidden", or a non physical "house of al-haram", just like the upper and lower houses of Congress. The "bayt al-haram" will be the physical building in which such a "house of al-haram" holds its session, and all of us should have the "qibla"/target/goal of orienting ourselves to the truth and to establish such a "house of al-haram", and also implementing the obedience of the restrictions of the system in our lives.
i ll sum up what has transpired so far
u claimed that sajada is "hearing and obeying" and that masjid is a government institution...following which i asked for verses/references!
...u responded by quoting verses 3215, 2573, 258-59, 17161-162, 446 and 12100! besides u talked about 17107, 4101-103 and 56-7!
17107 is perhaps clear about physical prostration! -)
also v have seen that u have tried to force an unjustified link between 3215 and 2573 to come up with an assumption!
u have next tried to impress that 258-59, 17161-162 and 4166 somehow strengthen ur assumptions...however, as v have seen all u have done is made empty claims that this is opposite of that and this links to that...none of which u have established...simply claimed!
next come 401-103 and 56-7, which part was another embarrassment...wonder what u tried to convey by making false statements about verses of quran!
u tried to make a case out of 12100, but ur idea of celestial bodies hearing joseph and altering their courses doesnt seem to me to be any less absurd than those bodies falling down at joseph's feet! -)
...moreover...u have to explain how the people of sheba heard and obeyed the sun! -)
another part of ur attempted justification was "al-masjid al-azhar" issuing fatwas! -)
...however like i ve already said...it is the fatwa committee that issues fatwas...
...but even if v accept the wrong usage that "al-masjid al-azhar" issues fatwas...and understand that not the physical mosque but it's committee issues fatwas...u still have to concede a physical mosque to which this committee relates!
likewise...if v allow almasjid alharam to be a committee..u will have to make provision for a physical almasjid alharam to which this committee is related! -)
do u have anything to prove ur claim that sjd is "hearing and obeying"? -)
Once again you have not answered a single question/comment posed to you that shows that a physical "al-masjid al-haram" is IMPOSSIBLE per the qur'aanic verses and you have failed to answer that. Your tactics clearly indicate you are not being objective and forethoughtful and are creating contradictions/inconsistencies in The God's words by your fallacious interpretations that imply that The God is asking us to do something that is impossible. I will not answer you any further until you answer the questions/comments posed to you in my earlier post. #
if this post of urs describes how u use the book of god to "answer"... hmmm ! -)
by the way...i havent seen u "translate" al-masjid al-azhar...shoudnt u say "the institution/implementaion of the hearing and obeying of the shining/splendid/luminous/flourishing"? -)
just how difficult it is for peepz to do as god says! -)
peace tanveer! peace! -)
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peace
just how difficult it is for peepz to do as god says! -)
how do you know that is what god says? who do you KNOW that?
anyway...
the quran says that the purpose of the qibla is to distinguish the righteous from the not-so-righteous. How does a facing mecca do that?
the quran tells us to face masjid alharam wherever we are and wherever we go. What if I live west of mecca and I'm moving west? but I guess the answer to that would be, "stop and turn around." which is fine.
But WHEN do we face masjid alharam? I don't think the quran specifies the time. So that means that in general, through out the day, we must face masjid alharam. If it is a physical place, how does one do that?ACCORDING TO THE QURAN, what is the purpose of a sacred building/place?
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phoenix1 wrote
how do you know that is what god says? who do you KNOW that?which is why i didnt say what god says! -)
...i simply said "just how difficult it is for peepz to obey god"! -)
...coming to my specific belief...yes...i believe almasjid alharam in the verse is a physical place! -)
anyway...
the quran says that the purpose of the qibla is to distinguish the righteous from the not-so-righteous.
the purpose of the change in the qibla seems closer to what u are saying...i think
2142 The fools among the people will say What has turned them from their qiblah which they had? Say The East and the West belong only to Allah; He guides whom He likes to the right path.
2143 And like that We made you a moderate/reasonable nation to be witnesses on the people, and the messenger be (a) witness on you, and We did not make the (prayer) direction that you were on it, except to know who follows the messenger from who returns on his two heels , and that truly (was) big/great (E) except on those who God guided, and God was not to waste your faith/belief, that God (is) with the people merciful/compassionate (E) , most merciful .
How does a facing mecca do that?
where does the verse say mecca? -)
the quran tells us to face masjid alharam wherever we are and wherever we go. What if I live west of mecca and I'm moving west? but I guess the answer to that would be, "stop and turn around." which is fine.
But WHEN do we face masjid alharam? I don't think the quran specifies the time. So that means that in general, through out the day, we must face masjid alharam. If it is a physical place, how does one do that?10 87 And We inspired/transmitted to Moses and his brother that you (B) reside/establish houses/homes to your (B)'s nation by a city/border/region/Egypt, and make your houses/homes direction, and keep up the prayers, and announce good news (to) the believers.
2142 The fools among the people will say What has turned them from their qiblah which they had? Say The East and the West belong only to Allah; He guides whom He likes to the right path.
i think it is for salat...(i) think! -)
ACCORDING TO THE QURAN, what is the purpose of a sacred building/place?
do u have a particular 1 in mind? -)
peace! -)
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Peace Jafar,
Very interesting... the Anshar (Arabic for "The Helpers" are actually Jewish or at least Bani Israil / Benei Yisreel..?
Yes, Bani Israel are not necessarily just Jews but could also be Christians or Jewish Christians (or even Muslims nowadays).
In the Quran... the anshar is somewhat connected to Jesus...
"O ye who believe, be ye Anshar Allah (God Helper) like Jesus Son Of Mary said to his follower.."
(Please help me with the reference... I'm on public terminal right now, no access to Quran )In the Hebrew Tanakh, and also classical Christians literature (before the Roman / Catholicism period). Jesus and his follower often reference themselves as "Nozirith", in English "The Nazeers", which mistakenly translated as a name of city who actually never existed at that time (Nazareth). The Nazeers / Nozirith can be roughly translated as "the one who dedicate themselves to God's purpose". They abstain from dinking wine and also shaving their head.
And on another verse; there is also a reference to a very "Nozirith" habit, which is "abstain from shaving head / hair" until certain purpose / goal is reached.
It is more or less like this
"And ye will enter Masjidil Haram, with head shaven...."
(Please help me with the reference... I'm on public terminal right now, no access to Quran )Yes. Thank you for the interesting info about the head shaving custom.
And the verse which refer to "Masjidil Haram" as the "kiblah" also have a strong reference to "the people of the book"... (They knew that it is from their Lord).
The exact wording is "they knew that it is the truth from their Lord".
So, yes, they know that "al-masjid al-haram" is "the truth from their Lord" NOT some shrine.
One point is certain by our discussion
The Anshar is actually "Nozirith" / "Jewish Christians"Yes. The word Christian is never used in the great reading. The Trinitarians and Monophysites (i.e., the Christians) are condemned as "kufffar" rejecters in 572-73. The passage doesn't mention Nasara.
Nasara would fit groups such as Nestorians and Ebionites who the Trinitarians and Monophysites didn't consider as Christians. They considered them a Jewish sect.
Peace,
Ayman