Criticism of Mecca and Kaaba
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Peace all,
- We see the turning of thy face (for guidance to the heavens now Shall We turn thee to a Qibla that shall please thee. Turn then Thy face in the direction of the sacred Mosque Wherever ye are, turn your faces in that direction. The people of the Book know well that that is the truth from their Lord. Nor is Allah unmindful of what they do.
seems clear that the people of the book knew that the assignment of the qibla is indeed the truth from their lord!
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Even if thou wert to bring to the people of the Book all the Signs (together), they would not follow Thy Qibla; nor art thou going to follow their Qibla; nor indeed will they follow each other's Qibla. If thou after the knowledge hath reached thee, Wert to follow their (vain) desires,-then wert thou Indeed (clearly) in the wrong.
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The people of the Book know this (edit "know this" = yarifuna hu) as they know their own sons; but some of them conceal the truth which they themselves know.
who/what is this "hu" here...
...is it referring to the prophet?
...or the command to change the qibla? -)
- The Truth is from thy Lord; so be not at all in doubt.
seems to be describing the assignment of the qibla as the truth from the lord! -)
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To each is a goal to which Allah turns him; then strive together (as in a race) Towards all that is good. Wheresoever ye are, Allah will bring you Together. For Allah Hath power over all things.
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From whencesoever Thou startest forth, turn Thy face in the direction of the sacred Mosque; that is indeed the truth from the Lord. And Allah is not unmindful of what ye do.
this verse seems to make it unmistakably clear that the assignment of the qibla is the truth from the lord! -)
any ideas for 2146?
...i was inclined towards "hu" being muhammad...but considering the fact that god makes it clear that the assignment of the qiblah is indeed the truth from it, not sure i m quite as inclined now!
...wat say peepz?
I agree with tg here, and disagree with AB's fallacious interpretation (what's new ). Still it does not mean that al-masjid al-haram is a physical building (for which tg has provided ZERO evidence so far, and hasn't answered a single question posed to him earlier and keeps lying about it being physical ). Thus the assignment of qibla, which is a mental target/goal, is the truth from our Lord, and when we follow such a mental target/goal we are indeed following the truth from our Lord, which Ayman is implying.
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Peace all,
As everyone can see, AB continues to deceive others by hiding stuff, and giving incomplete information. What he (deliberately/intentionally) did not tell you is that according to all Classical Arabic dictionaries, SHATR also means "in the direction of", and everyone knows that a direction can be mental also.
If we look HEAD ON towards a physical cubic structure or most of the buildings, from a vantage point on Earth, it is a scientific fact that we cannot look at the "half" of the cube/building but perhaps one-sixth or less as a cube and most buildings for that matter have 6 sides. Thus if the relevant verse is talking about a physical building, then "shatr" cannot mean "half", and if it means "half", then it cannot be referring to a physical building as it is impossible to see half of a building from a vantage point on Earth, unless one is floating in sky. Thus according to AB's ludicrous interpretation, one has to float in sky to look at half of the building and that also only at a cetain angle from the sky. I wonder what AB is doing on Earth then and why he is not in the sky
If on the other hand "shatr" means "in the direction of", then it can also mean a mental direction and will fit with the context of usage of al-masjid al-haram in al-qur'aan.
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salaam maxq
If you consider non-muslim accounts of Islam, you get the following
Beginning with Muameth for 9 years
Abubacharus for 3 years
Umar for 12 years
Uthman for 10 years
xxxx
anarchy and war for 4 years
xxxx
Mabias for 19 years
Hezit for 3 years
Marva for 1 year
Abdemelech for 21 years
Iulit for 10 years
Suleiman for 3 years
Umar for 2 years
Izith for 3 years
Isan for 19 years
Ulit for 1 year
Izitolipsus for 1 year
Marva for 6 years
xxxx
Abulabas for 4 years
Abugiaphar for 21 years
Maadi his son for 10 years
Muse his son for 1 year
Aaron his brother for 20 years
anarchy and war against their sons for 7 years
up until the 11th year of the current indictionref www.attalus.org/translate/syntomon.html
Ok &
If we start with 818 and trace back to the point where the Umayyads were toppled by Abbasids, we get to Abul Abbas, we get to about 755(+/-5), and if we go further to the point of Uthman, we get to about 662(+/-2). It is this year (or its whereabouts) when anarchy and war was rampant throughout the "Saracen" world.
We see that these two cycles - from mid 600s to mid 700s, and from there on till early 800s is a span of about 200 hundred years. A lot can happen in this time and opposition can be "crushed" decisively.Crushing opposition does not wipe out the history. Belief continue.....USSR
In 1857, did anyone think that the Indian subcontinent would be split into two nations in exactly 90 years? Based on religion? i.e. Pakistan (E/W) and Bhaarat?
May be some did my be they did not. However has the Indian history pre-partition forgotten....i am not sure the relevance of your point.
The lack of Kabba/Mecca seems no more than a clever manipulation of words and supposed archaelogical evidence which appears to be clear as an ant 200 meters away in a foggy day (no comments of fog in my these please)
regards
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you should also consider the times... USSR is a relatively recent example (so is of the Indian sucontinent and I realize that)... it was meant to explain that a lot can happen in 200 years. Especially in old times when "papers were not pulished widely"
salaam maxq
Ok &
We see that these two cycles - from mid 600s to mid 700s, and from there on till early 800s is a span of about 200 hundred years. A lot can happen in this time and opposition can be "crushed" decisively.Crushing opposition does not wipe out the history. Belief continue.....USSR
May be some did my be they did not. However has the Indian history pre-partition forgotten....i am not sure the relevance of your point.
The lack of Kabba/Mecca seems no more than a clever manipulation of words and supposed archaelogical evidence which appears to be clear as an ant 200 meters away in a foggy day (no comments of fog in my these please)
regards
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peace
Hypocrite does not mean a person who does wrong, but a person who tells others to do the right thing, and acts righteous in front of others, but in privacy is a bad person.
So the people who openly refuse to face mecca cannot be hypocrites.
Hypocrites would be people who face mecca but dont really believe that it does anything.There is no way that facing a physical structure will sort out the believers from the hypocrites.
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Peace all,
The lack of Kabba/Mecca seems no more than a clever manipulation of words and supposed archaelogical evidence which appears to be clear as an ant 200 meters away in a foggy day (no comments of fog in my these please)
There is no verse in al-qur'aan that links "kaaba" with "mecca". So who is manipulating here ?
There is overwhelming archeological evidence and historical evidence that shows imperfect cubic structures veiled with black cloth and black stones used as representations of idols by pagans, especially the pagans of Arabia, along with their custom of mindlessly spinning around them 7 times and kissing them. This is not "supposed". The perfect resemblance of the imperfect cubic structure veiled in black cloth with black stones in it, with an open vaginal shape facing the rising sun in winter solstice, and mindlessly spinning around it 7 times and kissing it is not just a coincidence !
I wonder what someone is smoking that makes real life archeological evidence seem "supposed". Denying the clear signs of The God in favor of what their fathers used to do is not something new, but has been happening in a recurrent manner since the dawn of mankind.
2170 And if they are told "Follow what God has sent down," they Say "No, we will follow what we found our fathers doing!" What if their fathers did not understand anything and were not guided?
639 And those who deny Our signs, they are deaf and dumb, in darkness. Whoever God wishes He misguides, and whoever He wishes He makes him on a straight path.
Those who deny the clear signs of The God have foggy minds and need to be woken up hypno elektro
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Peace Ayman
Tanveer pointed to the following link on the topic ?The incorruptible mighty book? by you which had some excellent references from Roman Christian sources on early islam.
A must read topic for anyone interested in this subject. http//www.freeminds.org/forum/index.php?topic=10259.0
A point of interest is the mention of Masjid ( Midzgith ) as a constructed structure and about prayer by Roman Christian sources while describing the Muslims, soon after Muhammad, which might mean your interpretation of masjid is not correct. Also for early muslims and for Jews the word qibla meant direction of prayer according to the said references without any 8th century manipulation.
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Peace
2 238
Pickthall Be guardians of your prayers, and of the midmost prayer, and stand up with devotion to Allah.2 239
Pickthall And if ye go in fear, then (pray) standing or on horseback. And when ye are again in safety, remember Allah, as He hath taught you that which (heretofore) ye knew not.When you are in foot or riding its obvious one can not keep a direction but the Quraan addresses the issue. Possibly these are exceptions to the rule in praying direction.
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Peace warner,
Can we include believing in the last day/judgment day also as part of the forbidden?
As we know that one of the restrictions is to observe our pledges with The God and keep the covenant with Him and not to break them.
One of the covenants/pledges is as follows
3660 "Did I not pledge to you, O Children of Adam, that you should not serve the devil for he is your most ardent enemy?"
Not believing in God or the Last Day is serving the devil
438 And those who spend their money to show-off to the people, and they do not believe in God or the Last Day. And whoever has the devil as his companion, then what a miserable companion!
Thus if we don't believe in the Last Day we are breaking the covenant/pledge we made with The God.
Is there any evidence that there was a government institution for hearing and obeying the forbidden at the time this verse was released?
Is there any evidence of a physical building by the name of Masjid Al-Haram around the so called Kaaba in Mecca at the time the verse was revealed ?
You have also seen that if almasjid alharam is taken to be a physical building it causes so many impossibilities to arise as I have mentioned in other posts.
If almasjid alharam is a not a physical building, then there are no impossibilities/contradictions/inconsistencies in al-qur'aan, and it is possible for almasjid alharam to be not a physical building but an institution according to the usage in al-qur'aan.
Thus all the verses mentioning almasjid alharam would be evidence of existence of such an institution at that time, a "house of submission" of al-haram, just like upper and lower "houses" of Congress.
When you are in foot or riding its obvious one can not keep a direction but the Quraan addresses the issue. Possibly these are exceptions to the rule in praying direction.
The phrase "WHEREVER you are" cannot have any exceptions, due to the word "wherever". Thus 2239 would be an additional evidence of the mental nature of the qibla.
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Peace warner,
I look forward to Ayman's reply, but here is my comment
The institution of "house of submission" of alharam obviously needs a physical building for its session, and that physical building is "albayt alharam". The salat could also be carried out in this bayt. The "midzgith" can easily be referring to this "albayt alharam". This is confirmed by the following, quoted from Ayman's post
In a letter John the Stylite, Jacob is answering a question about the direction prayer. It is one of the very few places where non-Muslim writers talk about the Muslim practices
"Your question is vain . . . for it is not to the south that the Jews pray, nor either do the Mhaggraye (the Muslims). The Jews who live in Egypt, and also the Mhaggraye there, as I saw with my own eyes and will now set out for you, prayed to the east, and still do, both peoples?the Jews towards Jerusalem and the Mhaggraye towards the Ka'ba. And those Jews who are to the south of Jerusalem pray to the north; and those in the land of Babel, in Hira and in Basra, pray to the west. And also the Mhaggraye who are there pray to the west, towards the Ka'ba; and those who are to the south of the Ka'ba pray to the north, towards that place. So from all this that has been said, it is clear that it is not to the south that the Jews and Mhaggraye here in the regions of Syria pray, but towards Jerusalem or the Ka'ba, the patriarchal places of their races."
Jacob's accounts place the so-called Ka'ba in the same vicinity as Jerusalem as late as the beginning of the eighth century CE and demolishes the historicity of the present so-called Qibla in so-called Makkah. Now this is significant in light of the previous accounts discussed above about the Muslims building some sort of temple on the site of the temple mount in Jerusalem. This correlates with an interesting note by Arculf, the Pilgrim who in the 670s CE wrote the following
"In that famous place where once stood the magnificently constructed Temple, near the eastern wall, the Saracens now frequent a rectangular house of prayer which they have built in a crude manner, constructing it from raised planks and large beams over some remains of ruins. This house can, as it is said, accommodate at least 3000 people."
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Peace Tanveer
Does Midzjith sound like bait ul haram to you.
After 1000 years even if the congress building does not exist there possibly will be evidences ,God willing, of existence of an institution known as congress. In the same way do we have any evidence to prove that there was a government institution in existence 1400 years ago to handle the hearing and obeying the forbidden?
2238 -239 is about salat. If it was only mental what is the reason for the verse? Also the verse says ?..when ye are again in safety, remember Allah, as He hath taught you?? . But the verse does provide the solution to the problem of facing the masjid ul haram during salat when travelling.
9 29
Yusuf Ali Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His apostle nor acknowledge the religion of truth (even if they are) of the People of the Book until they pay the Jizya with willing submission and feel themselves subdued.Transliteration Qa_tilul lazina la_ yu'minu_na billa_hi wa la_ bil yaumil a_khiri wa yuharrimu_na ma_ harramalla_hu wa rasu_luhu_ wa la_ yadinu_na dinal haqqi minal lazina u_tul kita_ba hatta_ yu'tul jizyata 'ay yadiw wa hum sa_giru_n(a).
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tanveer wrote
Still it does not mean that al-masjid al-haram is a physical building (for which tg has provided ZERO evidence so far, and hasn't answered a single question posed to him earlier and keeps lying about it being physical ). Thus the assignment of qibla, which is a mental target/goal, is the truth from our Lord, and when we follow such a mental target/goal we are indeed following the truth from our Lord, which Ayman is implying.ur partner seems to have claimed that "the truth" is "al-masjid al-haram"...and not the assignment of the qibla! -)
...but i think u also feel that "the truth" seems to be the assignment of the qibla, which the disbelievers seem averse to! -)
anyway....u made a claim that sjd means "hear and obey" and masjid means government institution...or "institution/implementation of the hearing and obeying of the forbidden"...whatever that means....for which i asked for verses/references! u posted something as proof...and u have as of yet offered nothing!
whatever u have offered so far is a clear case of
false parallels (trying to draw a comparison between the fatwa committee of al-azhar and almasjid alharam)
double standards (even if i allow u some manipulation, u will still have to concede a physical "al-masjid al-azhar"...so by ur own parallel...for a committee almasjid alharam to exist...there has to exist a physical al-masjid al-haram to which it relates...it will be hypocritical to allow for one and refuse the other)
manipulation of quranic verses (u have tried to force links between words, where there exist no links....cases in point being 258-59, 446)
lies about quranic verses (u lied about the contents of the verses, case in point being 56-7)
misleading statements (u claimed it was "common" in arabic to use "masjid" as institution of obedience and not a physical place...which is a lie...moreover, ur parallel also failed miserably, which makes ur case twice as bad)
double standards (it is common in arabic for masjid to mean a physical place...so in disputing what is common in arabic u seem to have displayed double-standards...yet again)
this is what i expected of u, and u have lived upto my expectations remarkably well! -)
anyway, i ll contribute towards ur credibility, maybe it will make u feel better
let's consider the verse 7161
7161 And they were told "Reside in this town and eat from it as you please, and say "Our load is removed", and enter the gate 'sujadan', We will forgive for you your wrong doings, and We will increase for the good doers."
let us see what was said to them
enter the town,
eat from it as plentifully as u wish,
say "hittatun"
enter the door sujjadan,
now then, only a hypocrite will single out a solitary word from what was said to them, and ignore all the rest!
...to then manipulate the verses to find "opposites" for a word taken out of context would call for a perverse approach to book of god! -)
...and indeed...perversity of hearts has been the story of the hypocrites! -)
proceed with caution here...
let us now turn to some other verses
434 Inform the hypocrites that they have incurred painful retribution.
v can see that the hypocrites have incurred a painful retribution...
...but who will incur the wrath of god? not those who hear and obey god!
... rather, those who do not hear and obey god will incur the painful retribution!
..so v can link this to the above verse and conclude that "almunafiqun" is equivalent to "who do not hear and obey"...now v have a better translation of the verse
434 Inform the ones who do not hear and obey that they have incurred painful retribution.
so our conclusion almunafiqun = who do not hear and obey!
likewise v can logically arrive at the correct translations of other verses and conclude
kafirun, munafiqun, zalimun,etc = "who do not hear and obey"
225 But give glad tidings to those who believe and work righteousness, that their portion is Gardens, beneath which rivers flow. Every time they are fed with fruits therefrom, they say "Why, this is what we were fed with before," for they are given things in similitude; and they have therein companions pure (and holy); and they abide therein (for ever).
again...who will have their portion in the gardens? surely, these cannot be those who do not hear and obey god...innit?
so v can conclude that those who hear and obey will have their portions in the garden!
v can now see the equivalence between "who believe and do righteous works" and "who hear and obey"!
so now that v have a logical understanding, v can proceed and correctly translate the verse
225 But give glad tidings to those who hear and obey, that their portion is Gardens, beneath which rivers flow. Every time they are fed with fruits therefrom, they say "Why, this is what we were fed with before," for they are given things in similitude; and they have therein companions pure (and holy); and they abide therein (for ever).
conclusion "alladhina amanu wa amilussalihati" = the ones who hear and obey!
likewise, v can correctly translate many more verses and conclude
muminun, mukhliseen, swalihun, hanif, etc all of these mean who "hear and obey"! -)
ofcourse, this was just a sneak preview...one can take any word out of context and arrive at a (new) meaning to suit his/her disbelief! -)
conclusion
2279 Therefore woe be unto those who write the Scripture with their hands and then say, 'This is from Allah,' that they may purchase a small gain therewith. Woe unto them for that their hands have written, and woe unto them for that they earn thereby.
then woe be unto the lot of those who distort the book of god and lie about it!
28 And of mankind are some who say We believe in Allah and the Last Day, when they believe not.
then again...woe be the lot of disbelievers, who pretend to believe! -)
by the way...do u think u have anything to offer as proof for ur understanding of "sjd" and "masjid"? -)
and oh...lest i forget....u havent explained how the peope of sheba "heard and obeyed" the sun! -)
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tanveer wrote
Still it does not mean that al-masjid al-haram is a physical building (for which tg has provided ZERO evidence so far, and hasn't answered a single question posed to him earlier and keeps lying about it being physical ). Thus the assignment of qibla, which is a mental target/goal, is the truth from our Lord, and when we follow such a mental target/goal we are indeed following the truth from our Lord, which Ayman is implying.u made a claim that sjd means "hear and obey" and masjid means government institution...or "institution/implementation of the hearing and obeying of the forbidden"...whatever that means....for which i asked for verses/references! u posted something as proof...and u have as of yet offered nothing!
whatever u have offered so far is a clear case of
false parallels (trying to draw a comparison between the fatwa committee of al-azhar and almasjid alharam)
double standards (even if i allow u some manipulation, u will still have to concede a physical "al-masjid al-azhar"...so by ur own parallel...for a committee almasjid alharam to exist...there has to exist a physical al-masjid al-haram to which it relates...it will be hypocritical to allow for one and refuse the other)
manipulation of quranic verses (u have tried to force links between words, where there exist no links....cases in point being 258-59, 446)
lies about quranic verses (u lied about the contents of the verses, case in point being 56-7)
misleading statements (u claimed it was "common" in arabic to use "masjid" as institution of obedience and not a physical place...which is a lie...moreover, ur parallel also failed miserably, which makes ur case twice as bad)
double standards (it is common in arabic for masjid to mean a physical place...so in denying what is common in arabic u have displayed double-standards...yet again)
this is what i expected of u, and u have lived upto my expectations remarkably well! -)
anyway, i ll contribute towards ur credibility, maybe it will make u feel better
let's consider the verse 7161
7161 And they were told "Reside in this town and eat from it as you please, and say "Our load is removed", and enter the gate 'sujadan', We will forgive for you your wrong doings, and We will increase for the good doers."
let us see what was said to them
enter the town,
eat from it as plentifully as u wish,
say "hittatun"
enter the door sujjadan,
now then, only a hypocrite will single out a solitary word from what was said to them, and ignore all the rest!
...to then manipulate the verses to find "opposites" for a word taken out of context would call for a perverse approach to book of god! -)
...and indeed...perversity of hearts has been the story of the hypocrites! -)
proceed with caution here...
let us now turn to some other verses
434 Inform the hypocrites that they have incurred painful retribution.
v can see that the hypocrites have incurred a painful retribution...
...but who will incur the wrath of god? not those who hear and obey god!
... rather, those who do not hear and obey god will incur the painful retribution!
..so v can link this to the above verse and conclude that "almunafiqun" is equivalent to "who do not hear and obey god"...now v have a better translation of the verse
434 Inform the ones who do not hear and obey that they have incurred painful retribution.
so our conclusion almunafiqun = who do not hear and obey!
likewise v can logically arrive at the correct translations of other verses and conclude
kafirun, munafiqun, zalimun,etc = "who do not hear and obey"
225 But give glad tidings to those who believe and work righteousness, that their portion is Gardens, beneath which rivers flow. Every time they are fed with fruits therefrom, they say "Why, this is what we were fed with before," for they are given things in similitude; and they have therein companions pure (and holy); and they abide therein (for ever).
again...who will have their portion in the gardens? surely, these cannot be those who do not hear and obey god...innit?
so v can conclude that those who hear and obey will have their portions in the garden!
v can now see the equivalence between "who believe and do righteous works" and "who hear and obey"!
so now that v have a logical understanding, v can proceed and correctly translate the verse
225 But give glad tidings to those who hear and obey, that their portion is Gardens, beneath which rivers flow. Every time they are fed with fruits therefrom, they say "Why, this is what we were fed with before," for they are given things in similitude; and they have therein companions pure (and holy); and they abide therein (for ever).
conclusion "alladhina amanu wa amilusswalihati" = the ones who hear and obey!
likewise, v can correctly translate many more verses and conclude
muminun, mukhliseen, swalihun, hanif, etc all of these mean who "hear and obey"! -)
ofcourse, this was just a sneak preview...one can take any word out of context and arrive at a (new) meaning to suit his/her disbelief! -)
conclusion
2279 Therefore woe be unto those who write the Scripture with their hands and then say, 'This is from Allah,' that they may purchase a small gain therewith. Woe unto them for that their hands have written, and woe unto them for that they earn thereby.
then woe be unto the lot of those who distort the book of god and lie about it!
by the way...do u think u have anything to offer as proof for ur understanding of "sjd" and "masjid"? -)
and oh...lest i forget....u havent explained how the peope of sheba "heard and obeyed" the sun! -)
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Peace be with you
I quote from the topic ?The incorruptible mighty book? by Ayman particularly part of the article on references by Roman Christian sources on early islam.
( http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=10259.0)I hope I have Aymans permission for this.
Interestingly, the doubts shed on masjid, prayer,qibla as 8 the century corruption by some can be eliminated from these Roman Christian sources.
Quote Ayman
..But if you read those writings, they speak mostly about the military conflicts going on at the time between the Roman Christians on one hand and the Jews, Saracens, and pagans on the other hand. They rarely speak about religious practices. Even in the very few cases where they do, the practices they describe are different from the Sunnah practices we know today.
Interestingly, such writings never use the word "Muslim" but they speak of Saracens, Muhajerin, Jews, and/or pagans. As we will see, one thing that we notice throughout all the Roman Christian accounts is the very close alliance between the Jews and the Muhajerin against the Roman Christians.
First, let me put the sources that you gave (there are actually many more) in chronological order and summarize what they wrote.
John Moschus
We do not have the direct writings of John Moschus who died in 619CE. We only have the work of Sophronius, Patriarch of Jerusalem who supposedly expanded on the writings of John Moschus and died around 639CE. Here is the only passage from a work originally composed by John Moschus
"The godless Saracens entered the holy city of Christ our Lord, Jerusalem, with the permission of God and in punishment for our negligence, which is considerable, and immediately proceeded in haste to the place which is called the Capitol. They took with them men, some by force, others by their own will, in order to clean that place and to build that cursed thing, intended for their prayer and which they call a "Midzgith"."
As you can see, there is nothing in the passage about any Sunnah. Also, unless the dating is way off, since John Moschus might have already died before this event, it is unlikely that he wrote it.
So here we have an account, which can be dated to 639CE or only 5 years after the prophet's alleged date of death. This account matches with another document we get from Sebeos. However, even though Sebeos's document is further from the fact, it seems to contain more details. As you will see, throughout those reports, the matching of the content with the traditional dating of when the prophet lived is very problematic.
Thomas the Presbyter
Thomas only mentions very briefly a couple of military battles in two accounts dating to 640+CE. They describe a defeat of the Romans in the year 634CE. Interestingly, in one of the accounts he talks about the invaders as Tayyaye (People from the area of Hira in present day Iraq) and describes them as the Tayyaye of Mohamed.
Sebeos, Bishop of the Bagratunis
Although the authorship of a chronicle talking about military conflicts of the time is attributed to Sebeos, this has been reexamined by modern researchers and they now consider this chronicle anonymous.
In one of the passages, it talks about an event that may correlate to the event earlier described by Sophronius above
Now I shall speak about the plot of the Jewish rebels, who, finding support from the Hagarenes for a short time, planned to build the temple of Solomon. Locating the place called the holy of holies, they constructed , expelled them from the place, and named the same building their own place of prayer. built a temple for their worship, elsewhere.
Here the anonymous writer may be referring to the same building talked about by Sophronius. However, while Sophronius talks about the Saracens building a temple, here the chronicle says that the Jews first built a temple and then the Hagarenes (another name that seems to be sometimes used in lieu of Saracens) took it over.
He goes on in length describing a conspiracy where some militant Jews pretending to be Christians went into this congregational place and took some pigs and messed up the place. He says that the goal of the conspiracy was to enrage the Hagarenes so that they persecute and kill the Christians. However, the plot was foiled because one witness saw the perpetrators and recognized some of them.
John bar Penkaye
Relatively speaking, John spoke favorably of the Arabs (around 687CE). He conveyed that no attempts were made by the Arabs at forced conversion. He said that they only required each person to pay a tribute allowing him to remain in whatever faith he wished. He spoke highly of Mu'awiya and wrote "Justice flourished in his time and there was great peace in the regions under his control; he allowed everyone to live as they wanted." He also spoke of the prosperity and unprecedented economic boom under his rule. His only criticism of the Arabs was the lack of persecution of people who are not Roman Christians "There was no distinction between pagan and Christian," he complained, "the faithful was not known from a Jew."
So here the picture that we get is one where the Ummayadds seem to be a kind of secular regime that lets everyone live and believe freely as they wished as long as they paid taxes. This attitude was unheard of under Roman Christian rule where even Christians themselves who slightly deviated from the Roman Christian Church's dogma faced brutal persecution.
Interestingly, John inadvertently gave us a crucial clue about what caused corruptions to appear so quickly and a strong motive for why those corruptions rapidly and firmly took hold. Naturally, due to the practice of levying a tax on non-Muslims, many people must have converted not out of conviction but only to save money. Obviously, the majority of converts only converted superficially but largely remained loyal to their forefathers' doctrine. Thus, pagans, Jews, Christians, and Zoroastrians who converted simply imported their practices and beliefs and assimilated them into their new religion. This allowed them to participate in the economic boom without giving up their forefathers' traditions.
Anastasius of Sinai
Anastasius (died 700CE) is a fervent Christian apologetic and his writings merely focused on attacking other religions. He writes angrily of some Saracens, "who had expressed their disbelief and blasphemed the holy place, its icons and its crosses". He mocks them, saying that "no such miracles had occurred in any other religion, or in any synagogue of the Jews or Arabs."
What is interesting here is that Anastasius talks about Saracens as BOTH Jews and Arabs and describes them in the same terms. So once again we get the impression of a very close alliance that goes well into the Ummayyad dynasty. This is completely contrary to the traditional Sunni accounts, which claim that the prophet severed his ties with the Jews and persecuted them long before the Ummayyads. This confirms that Hadiths talking about Muslims killing and persecuting Jews were invented in a later period after the relationship went sour.
Anastasius talks about the enslavement of Christian prisoner of wars from islands such Cyprus. He indicates that the masters of the Christians performing forced labor in Sinai were Jews and the slaves were refused permission by their Jewish master to attend mass in honor of the Virgin Mary. So here we have the Jews taking slaves from the wars fought by the Saracens. So once again, we see that Jews played major roles in those wars and benefited from them as victors do. The enslavement of prisoners of war is a Jewish and pagan practice that was adopted by the Saracens. Therefore, naturally there was a strong motive for fabricating Hadiths justifying such practices by claiming that the prophet did the same.
Jacob of Edessa
Jacob of Edessa (died 708CE) mainly wrote about how a Roman Christian can cope with the new reality of Christians being rapidly reduced to a religious minority. In doing so, he described in passing some of the practices of the Muhajirin and the Jews. Jacob was in favor of leniency. For example, he said that priests may give the blessing of the saints to the Muhajirin or the pagans. He said that they may also teach the children of Muhajirin, Harranians, and Jews.
What is interesting to note here is that Jacob refers to three entities, Muhajirin (Muslims), pagans, and Jews. What is surprising is that according to Jacob, Arab paganism continued to exist as late as the beginning of the eighth century. This is in line with the Ummayyad policy of secular tolerance towards other beliefs as long as they paid taxes as other contemporaneous eye witnesses reported in their manuscripts as we saw earlier.
In another passage, Jacob writes to priests on how to deal with Christians who convert to Muslims or pagans.
We should not rebaptise a Christian who becomes a Muhagir or pagan (mhaggar aw mahnep) then returns, but the prayer of penitents is to be said over him by the bishop and a period of penance enjoined upon him.
This again shows that Arab paganism was still practiced at the time of Jacob. In another passage, Jacob's account confirms that Christians converted on their own, without being forced to do so
"Many people who were members of the church will deny the true faith of the Christians, along with the holy cross and the awesome Mysteries, without being subjected to any compulsion, lashings or blows."
This confirms the earlier Ummayyad policy described earlier by John bar Penkaye.
Here is a very interesting quote from Jacob's manuscripts that has significant implications on the traditional Sunni accounts
"All we have regarding Haggar (Islam) are the notices that 'Muhammad (Mhmt) went down for trade to the lands of Palestine, Arabia and Syrian Phoenicia,' that 'the kingdom of the Arabians (Arbaye), those whom we call Tayyaye, began when Heraclius, king of the Romans, was in his eleventh year and Khusrau, king of the Persians, was in his thirty-first year' (620-21CE), and that 'the Tayyaye began to carry out raids in the land of Palestine.'"
What is interesting here is that Jacob's dating of the events pushes back the date of the beginning of Arab conquests by at least 12 years. According to the traditional accounts, in the year 620CE Islam was still in its infancy and the prophet still hasn't even emigrated from so-called Makkah. According the traditions, the Muslim kingship over Arabia wasn't even established until 632CE and the raids on the Romans in Palestine didn't begin until afterwards. The discrepancy in the dates between the hearsay-based traditions and the archeological manuscript-based eye witness accounts places serious doubts over the entire traditional history of events.
In a letter John the Stylite, Jacob is answering a question about the direction prayer. It is one of the very few places where non-Muslim writers talk about the Muslim practices
"Your question is vain . . . for it is not to the south that the Jews pray, nor either do the Mhaggraye (the Muslims). The Jews who live in Egypt, and also the Mhaggraye there, as I saw with my own eyes and will now set out for you, prayed to the east, and still do, both peoples?the Jews towards Jerusalem and the Mhaggraye towards the Ka'ba. And those Jews who are to the south of Jerusalem pray to the north; and those in the land of Babel, in Hira and in Basra, pray to the west. And also the Mhaggraye who are there pray to the west, towards the Ka'ba; and those who are to the south of the Ka'ba pray to the north, towards that place. So from all this that has been said, it is clear that it is not to the south that the Jews and Mhaggraye here in the regions of Syria pray, but towards Jerusalem or the Ka'ba, the patriarchal places of their races.
Jacob's accounts place the so-called Ka'ba in the same vicinity as Jerusalem as late as the beginning of the eighth century CE and demolishes the historicity of the present so-called Qibla in so-called Makkah. Now this is significant in light of the previous accounts discussed above about the Muslims building some sort of temple on the site of the temple mount in Jerusalem. This correlates with an interesting note by Arculf, the Pilgrim who in the 670s CE wrote the following
'In that famous place where once stood the magnificently constructed Temple, near the eastern wall, the Saracens now frequent a rectangular house of prayer which they have built in a crude manner, constructing it from raised planks and large beams over some remains of ruins. This house can, as it is said, accommodate at least 3000 people."
Another interesting account is by the Rabbi Simon ben Yohai who wrote in 680CE or so
"The second king who arises from Ishmael will be a lover of Israel. He restores their breaches and the breaches of the Temple. He hews Mount Moriah, makes it level and builds a Hishtahawaya (mosque) there on the Temple rock, as it is said "Your nest is set in the rock."
Could this be a reference to this second king building the Dome of the Rock? Is this second king, the second Caliph?
Now when we combine this with the accounts of the Jews also rebuilding a temple on the site of the Temple mount we get the impression that there were TWO structures built on the site of the Temple mount. One was built by the Muslims while the other built by the Jews who were in close allegiance against the Roman Christians. As Sebeos (or the anonymous writer) described, sometimes later, the Muslims took over the Jewish-built Temple and the Jews built another temple elsewhere in Jerusalem. At that point, the TWO structures became "Islamic". Those could very well be the originals of the two present structures of the Dome of the Rock and Al-Masjid Al-Aqsa.
Patriarch Germanus
In a documented sermon that took place sometimes 715-30 CE Patriarch Germanus lashes out at the Jews and Saracens who have allied against the Roman Christians
"It is worthy of our more special observation that not now only, but very often, reproaches of this kind have been urged against us by Jews and by the actual servants of idolatry, whose intention was to cast a blot on our immaculate and sacred faith. . . . The word of truth stops the mouth of these by the mention of their own peculiar abominations, branding with infamy the heathen with the wickedness and abominations of Gentile sacrifices and fables, making the Jews to blush, not only by reminding them of the frequent lapses of their fathers into idolatry, but, further, of their own opposition to the divine law which they made such a boast of holding. . . . With respect to the Saracens, since they also seem to be among those who urge these charges against us, it will be quite enough for their shame and confusion to allege against them their invocation which even to this day they make in the wilderness to a lifeless stone, namely that which is called Chobar, and the rest of their vain conversation received by tradition from their fathers as, for instance, the ludicrous mysteries of their solemn festivals."
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Peace Ayman, peace all,
May I first mention that I have the same qualities as the human who accepted the offer of trust by the God of the quran who were refused by mountains etc...; I am very unjust and very ignorant. So if the God despite that situation accepted the human for His trust I expect that acceptation from other humans who are seeking to rise together in the challenge. You asked me to define kaaba, you do it for me, as I am ignorant!
My point was that it is a rightful term used in the quran, now are you one to criticize the content?
My inspiration with kaaba is in its concept, not in it's matter. Successful spirit then a material construction to remember that success. Kaaba, the construction, a physical construction, father and son. By the way, are you building with your father? Do you have a son who is building with you? Are you building with your brother? Are you a builder? The form, if cubical or likewise is inspiring in the sense that it is not a pyramid. A pyramid is in my eyes the symbol of an unjust construction; be it physically in any desert or in any system who imposes itself in any way. Son do this! Slave do this! Muslim, enter bathroom right foot first! As opposed to ''My son I see..., what do you think?''
I never mentioned a black cube nor a black stone nor any marvel of the matter. I did notice however an apparent connection in the 911 event in New York(destructed destination) and that cube (destructor's departure). What's wrong? Is there a problem in direction? Is it a problem of location? Is the problem with Mecca? Is the kaaba under siege? Should there be a kaaba? What about hajj? Any connection?
I'm just looking to be amongst builders, whose efforts are going towards the same direction as the builders of the past, builders like Abraham and his rightful sons. Any ideas what to do? I'm trying to be a reader of the book of the God. However I don't have the language, I can't read.
p.s. Ayman, cold chills went down my spine when I saw the pictures of the black stone in your article.
peacefully,
adjwi
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Peace all,
As everyone can see, tg keeps lying that almasjid alharam is a physical building per al-qur'aan. I have asked him multiple times to produce any evidence for this from al-qur'aan and to date he has produced ZERO evidence for his lies. His fallacious assumption that almasjid alharam is a physical building creates impossibilities/contradictions in al-qur'aan which I have posted elsewhere quite a few times and posed questions to him, but he has failed to answer a single of those questions. This behavior is consistent with one who is deceptive and is trying to mislead others; hypocrites do the same thing. Thus by forcing his lies he is making a mockery of the word of The God. He keeps writing his own baseless conjectures/inventions/lies that almasjid alharam is a physical building and claims it is from The God without producing a single evidence and then refuses to address the impossibilities/contradictions this causes in the words of The God. He has also failed to read some of my recent posts in which I have commented on his reponses, and it is obvious from his responses that he has not read those posts of mine.
316 And from the people, there are those who accept baseless narrations to mislead from the path of God without knowledge, and they take it as entertainment. These will have a humiliating retribution.
279 So woe to those who write the Scripture with their hands then Say "This is from God," so that they can seek a cheap gain! Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they gained.
2061 Moses said to them "Woe to you, do not invent lies about God, else the retribution will take you, and miserable is the one who invents."
849 The hypocrites and those who have a disease in their hearts said "These people have been deceived by their system." But whoever puts his trust in God, then God is Noble, Wise.
639 And those who deny Our signs, they are deaf and dumb, in darkness. Whoever God wishes He misguides, and whoever He wishes He makes him on a straight path.
2875 And We will extract from every nation a witness, then We will Say "Bring forth your proof." They will then realise that all truth belongs with God, and what they had invented will abandon them.
This is exactly what I expected from him that
- He will not bring forth any evidence to support his conjectures/lies, and
- He will not answer the questions posed to him about the impossibilities/contradictions his false conjectures and lies create in al-qur'aan, and
- He will selectively comment on my posts avoiding those parts that refute his preposterous claims,
and as everyone can see he has lived up to his expectations. I hope he brings forth his proof soon and stops telling baseless lies to others.
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Peace warner,
Can you kindly enlighten us what the word "midzgith" exactly means and how it CANNOT mean "albayt alharam" ? Please post the relevant dictionary reference for the meaning of "midzgith".
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whatever u have offered so far is a clear case of
false parallels (trying to draw a comparison between the fatwa committee of al-azhar and almasjid alharam)
double standards (even if i allow u some manipulation, u will still have to concede a physical "al-masjid al-azhar"...so by ur own parallel...for a committee almasjid alharam to exist...there has to exist a physical al-masjid al-haram to which it relates...it will be hypocritical to allow for one and refuse the other)
manipulation of quranic verses (u have tried to force links between words, where there exist no links....cases in point being 258-59, 446)
lies about quranic verses (u lied about the contents of the verses, case in point being 56-7)
misleading statements (u claimed it was "common" in arabic to use "masjid" as institution of obedience and not a physical place...which is a lie...moreover, ur parallel also failed miserably, which makes ur case twice as bad)
double standards (it is common in arabic for masjid to mean a physical place...so in disputing what is common in arabic u seem to have displayed double-standards...yet again)
this is what i expected of u, and u have lived upto my expectations remarkably well! -)
Salam bro
I agree with what you said above, but you forgot something that he always do now, defaming me
Cheers
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Peace Nun de plume,
Try convincing one of these guys to turn.
http//www.chavaroth.com/images/artsm/menAtWall.jpgYou will get the same answers if you try convincing one of these guys to turn towards the truth from their Lord. brickwall
http//www.free-minds.org/articles/history/image003.jpg
Indeed, their hearts are alike.
Peace,
Ayman