Criticism of Mecca and Kaaba
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Peace and greetings,
If you people at free minds have invented a free mind arabic language then I think I should not argue because there is no more room left for arguments with people who trust in heresay archaeology more than what they see in reality. Faithfreedom has so many logical criticisms of Quran that I am sure that free minds people cannot defend Quran with their so called modern archaeology.
Exactly
see bro, any one of those manipulators in here will be slam dunked with ease on the Anti Islam web site FFI because they don't really understand the Arabic Quran, I have seen it in front of my eyes with phonix, I'm actually an active member on FFI and giving them a real headahe voodoo
Cheers
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Peace and greetings,
Dear jonny_k,
Yes I know and I understand it. I have not found any proper name in Quran that has al as its prefix. The examples given by brother Aymen of Al-Lat and Al-uzza are not convincing as the root words laat and uzza were common names for pagan gods and their chief or supreme idols were given the names Al-lat and Al-uzza which do not make them proper nouns as brother Aymen says. I challenge you to give me one proper name from Quran which has al as its prefix.
mate ther are many human Arabic names that starts with the Al
Al Said
Al Majid
Al Mumin
etc
this Al argument can't be admissable bro
Salam
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Peace Nun de plume,
First you accuse me of saying something which I didn't and then you accuse me of contradicting myself ?? confused
Wherever is not each and every moment. Wherever is each and every place.
It was a physical turning from Jerusalem to Mecca during prayer so hypocrites who refused to do so and cling on to the old direction will be recognized.
You are inventing yet another lie. Where is the evidence of the underlined portion of your quote in al-qur'aan ? I didn't see the words Jerusalem or Mecca in the relevant verse. Please don't shove your conjectures and fabrications and lies as facts !
It is IMPOSSIBLE to distinguish a hypocrite from a believer by facing a physical building.
It is IMPOSSIBLE to face a certain physical building WHEREVER one is.
It is IMPOSSIBLE to face a certain physical building once it is beyond the horizon.
It is IMPOSSIBLE to face a certain physical building once one is IN it.
It is IMPOSSIBLE to face a certain physical building when one is on Moon for example, with Earth on the other side.
It is IMPOSSIBLE to face a certain physical building while one is driving away from it (a subset of WHEREVER you are)
It is IMPOSSIBLE to face a certain physical building when one is at a point on Earth directly opposite to that building.
ETC. ETC. ETC.
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Peace Nun de plume,
No, you are contradicting yourself; NOT thinking about it every moment including during sex and other mundane human functions means you are NOT focused on it 24x7.
The god clearly tells us that "al-masjid al-haram" IS THE TRUTH FROM OUR LORD. Are you not facing the truth from your Lord when you don't have sex outside marriage and instead have sex with your spouse AS WE ARE TOLD PER THE TRUTH FROM OUR LORD?
When you do any human function from earning a living to having fun, don't you always keep in mind the truth from our Lord? So for example, you don't steal and you are honest in your work? Or do you only face the truth from your lord sometimes and the rest of the times you are dishonest and steal from poeple?
How exactly are you going to achieve the impossible? Why according to you does God ask the impossible?
It is not impossible to face the truth from your Lord all the time. It is hard but not impossible. This is why the hypocrites can't do it. To them their shrines are more important than the truth from their lord. It is time that you face the truth from your lord.
Unless of course you agree that ?wherever? does NOT mean every perpetual moment; millisecond; etc.
wher?ev?er (hw?r-v'r, w?r-)
adv.- In or to whatever place used red pencil wherever needed.
You couldn't find any instance of "7ythu ma" (indefinite wherever) in the great reading to argue with against me, did you?
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Ahmed,
this Al argument can't be admissable bro
For the first time that I remember in a long time, you actually say something sensible about Arabic. So please tell your friend Abrar to stop using his increasingly nonsensical argument that "mecca" is a proper name because it doesn't have "al" and words with "al" cannot be proper names. Thank you.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Nun do plume
All Prophets/believers always had a target/goal towards doing good so why have them turn/focus on doing good works as Tanveer states above implying they had the wrong target/goal?
All Prophets/believers should have a target/goal towards the truth from their lord. Indeed, they all know this as they know their own children. Tell me, do you know the so-called Kaaba as you would know your own children?
It was a physical turning from Jerusalem to Mecca during prayer so hypocrites who refused to do so and cling on to the old direction will be recognized.
So if a hypocrite turns towards Mecca, he or she will not be a hypocrite anymore!! Are you saying that no hypocrites turn towards Mecca!??? Surely, you can see that what you are saying is completely illogical.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Tanveer
If I keep the ?institution of hearing and obeying the forbidden? as my full time target
how about things such as helping the poor, salat, remembrance of Allah, fasting etc which is not part of ?forbidden? things but nevertheless very important actions according to the Quraan should be treated. Should I drop things not listed as ?forbidden? from my target.According to your explanation of 52, 8 34 , 2217, if disbelievers and Mushriks were part of the ?institution of hearing and obeying the forbidden? what forbidden things do you suppose were on their target or were they involved in as an institution which deals in the ?forbidden? . If ?institution of hearing and obeying the forbidden? was their target will they still be disbelievers/mushrikeen ?
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So if a hypocrite turns towards Mecca, he or she will not be a hypocrite anymore!! Are you saying that no hypocrites turn towards Mecca!??? Surely, you can see that what you are saying is completely illogical.
Peace,
Ayman
Salam Ayman, it is obvious what Nun is saying, he is only talking about hypocricy regarding those who refuse to turn to Mecca, not the hypocrites in general
sorry to tell you, but sure what he said which I agree on applies to you
Salam
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Peace warner,
If I keep the ?institution of hearing and obeying the forbidden? as my full time target
how about things such as helping the poor, salat, remembrance of Allah, fasting etc which is not part of ?forbidden? things but nevertheless very important actions according to the Quraan should be treated. Should I drop things not listed as ?forbidden? from my target.One of the forbidden things which is also the most important one is not setting up partners with The God. Another forbidden thing according to 6152 and 1325 is not breaking the pledges made to The God. When you keep those two as your target/goal, you will automatically do all the other things you mentioned as well.
3660 "Did I not pledge to you, O Children of Adam, that you should not serve the devil for he is your most ardent enemy?"
263 And We took your covenant, and raised the mount to be above you "Take what We have given you with strength, and remember what is in it that you may be righteous."
283 And We took the covenant of the Children of Israel "You shall not serve except God, and regard your parents, and regard the relatives, and orphans, and needy, and say kind things to the people, and uphold the salat, and contribute towards betterment." But then you turned away, except a few of you; you were objecting.
512 God has taken the covenant of the Children of Israel and sent from them twelve representatives, and God said "I am with you if you uphold the salat, and contribute towards betterment, and believe in My messengers, and support them, and give God a loan of righteousness; then I will cancel your sins and admit you into estates with rivers flowing beneath." Whoever rejects after this from you, then he has strayed from the path.
337 And when We took from the prophets their covenant. And from you, and from Noah, and Abraham, and Moses, and Jesus the son of Mary; We took from them a strong covenant.
1325 As for those who break the pledge of God after making its covenant, and they sever what God ordered that it be delivered, and they corrupt in the Earth; to those is a curse and they will have a miserable abode.
According to your explanation of 52, 8 34 , 2217, if disbelievers and Mushriks were part of the ?institution of hearing and obeying the forbidden?
I never said that. Now I understand how fabrications/inventions/lies were falsely attributed to Prophets Muhammad, Jesus and Moses in the form of false "hadeeth".
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Peace Tanveer
I was reffering to your below post particularly the sentences I have underlined in Bold.
According to your explanation the disbelievers were part of the institution of hearing and obeying the forbidden. The same institution you referring to set our target to.97 How can those who have set up partners have a pledge with God and with His messenger? Except for those with whom you made a pledge 'inda/by/in the presence of al-masjid al-haram/institution of implementing hearing and obeying the forbidden, as long as they are upright with you, then you are upright with them. God loves the righteous.
If "'inda" here is translated as "near" implying "near a physical building" then it does not make any sense. There was no physical building by the name of Masjid Al-Haram at the time of Prophet Muhammad, so how could the believers have made a pledge with the idolaters near a physical building by that name ?
The treaty was of no fighting during the prohibited four months and attacking each other without any valid reason. The believers were ordered to honor their treaties to the end of the term, but those idolaters who did not have a treaty with the believers were liable to be attacked after the forbidden months have passed, but if they repent and uphold the commitments of no fighting then the believers should leave their way. There cannot be a treaty of Allah and His messenger with the idolaters except with those with whom the believers entered into a treaty of no fight. The word "'inda" also means "by/in the presence of" which will make more sense in 97. The treaty was made by/in the presence of "al-masjid al-haram" meaning it was based on the principle of "the truth from our Lord" implementing the hearing and obeying of no fighting in the prohibited months.
917 It was not for those who have set up partners to maintain institutions of hearing and obeying The God while they bear witness over their own rejection. For these, their works have fallen, and in the Fire they will abide.
918 Rather, the institutions of hearing and obeying The God are maintained by he who believes in God and the Last Day, and he upholds the contact-method, and he contributes towards betterment, and he does not fear except God. It is these that will be of the guided ones.
919 Have you made the watering of the pilgrim and the maintenance of al-masjid al-haram/institution of hearing and obeying the forbidden the same as one who believes in God and the Last Day and he strives in the cause of God ? They are not the same with God. And God does not guide the wicked people.There was no physical building by the name of Masjid Al-Haram when this verse was revealed so there arises no question of maintenance of a physical structure by someone. According to 919, the idolators were previously involved in the government institution of hearing and obeying the forbidden, and this participation was later banned by 928. 917-18 and 928 make it clear that the institutions of hearing and obeying The God only prosper with people who are not idolaters.
Previously the believers needed to have a peace treaty with the idolaters for a peaceful existence, necessitating the participation of idolaters in the government institution of hearing and obeying the restrictions, but after the victory of the believers, there was no further need of a peace treaty with the idolaters and their participation in the institution of hearing and obeying the forbidden, hence their subsequent participation was banned.
928 O you who believe, those who have set up partners are impure, so let them not approach al-masjid al-haram after this year of theirs; and if you fear poverty, then God will enrich you from His blessings if He wills. God is Knowledgeable, Wise.
This verse makes it clear that the idolaters should not participate in "al-masjid al-haram" anymore. Here if "al-masjid al-haram" is a physical building then how can one prevent an idolater from entering a physical building ? Anyone can learn a few words like "la ilaha illallaha", meaning "there is no god but The God", or "salaamun alaikum", meaning peace be upon you, and claim to be a submitter, and enter that physical building. Only The God knows what is in the hearts. An idolater, while setting up partners with The God in his heart, can deceive the general public into believing that he is not an idolater by saying certain phrases, thereby being able to enter a physical building without any problem.
The idolaters turn away others from the implementation of hearing and obeying the forbidden and do not implement the hearing and obeying of the forbidden themselves. It is not possible to prevent an idolater from entering a physical building, as one does not know what is in the heart, but it is possible to prevent an idolater from participating in a government institution for the implementation of hearing and obeying the forbidden. Hence "al-masjid al-haram" in this verse can only mean a government institution for implementation of hearing and obeying the restrictions in the "deen", and not a physical building.
In addition to that, at the time this verse was revealed, there was NO PHYSICAL BUILDING by the name of Al-Masjid Al-Haram, so how is it possible to prevent an idolater from entering a physical building which does not even exist ? !!
Quote Tanveer
In an Islamic state, "al-masjid al-haram"/the institution of hearing and obeying the forbidden will be one of the various institutions, albeit the most important one. There will be other institutions of hearing and obeying (masajid) that deal with commandments other than the restrictions/forbidden. All of those institutions will hold their session in a central physical building of "al-bayt al-haram", which will be the base/"kaaba"
Since having only the institution of hearing and obeying the forbidden as the full time target will leave out other commands don?t you think we should also have our targets towards ?other institutions of hearing and obeying (masajid) that deal with commandments other than the restrictions/forbidden?.
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- We see the turning of thy face (for guidance to the heavens now Shall We turn thee to a Qibla that shall please thee. Turn then Thy face in the direction of the sacred Mosque Wherever ye are, turn your faces in that direction. The people of the Book know well that that is the truth from their Lord. Nor is Allah unmindful of what they do.
seems clear that the people of the book knew that the assignment of the qibla is indeed the truth from their lord!
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Even if thou wert to bring to the people of the Book all the Signs (together), they would not follow Thy Qibla; nor art thou going to follow their Qibla; nor indeed will they follow each other's Qibla. If thou after the knowledge hath reached thee, Wert to follow their (vain) desires,-then wert thou Indeed (clearly) in the wrong.
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The people of the Book know this (edit "know this" = yarifuna hu) as they know their own sons; but some of them conceal the truth which they themselves know.
who/what is this "hu" here...
...is it referring to the prophet?
...or the command to change the qibla? -)
- The Truth is from thy Lord; so be not at all in doubt.
seems to be describing the assignment of the qibla as the truth from the lord! -)
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To each is a goal to which Allah turns him; then strive together (as in a race) Towards all that is good. Wheresoever ye are, Allah will bring you Together. For Allah Hath power over all things.
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From whencesoever Thou startest forth, turn Thy face in the direction of the sacred Mosque; that is indeed the truth from the Lord. And Allah is not unmindful of what ye do.
this verse seems to make it unmistakably clear that the assignment of the qibla is the truth from the lord! -)
any ideas for 2146?
...i was inclined towards "hu" being muhammad...but considering the fact that god makes it clear that the assignment of the qiblah is indeed the truth from it, not sure i m quite as inclined now!
...wat say peepz?
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Salam bro The
How are you man, long time no personal hear
2145 is clearly about Al masjid Al haram as a physical building, the word SHATR is clear because SHATR means "Half", think of looking at an object far away, what you will see is only the half facing you like when we look at the moon, if it means the non sense some promote in here then the word shatr will be stupid to be in the verse
this non sensible argument that if we are on the moon and the earth is round etc etc, is just laughable and should not be responded to
for 2146 the HU is clearly about Mohamad not about the book, this from comparinig it with thier sons, i.e. a human compared to another human
All the possibilities for the HU are as follow
- the prophet
- the book that was just mentioned in the verse
knowing a book can not be decribed as knowing your children, do you agree?
Salam
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Salaam ayman
http//www.free-minds.org/articles/science/language.htm
http//www.free-minds.org/articles/history/ayman1.htmPeace,
The links you have provided do nott represent any historical evidence that Mecca/kebba were corruption introuced by latter day Muslims and there were any dissenting voices. Unless I have missed something, your articles are predominantly concerend with the language of the so called elite and the subsequent Quranic Arabic.
It seems quite incredible that latter day Muslims introduced an innovation of such a magnitude without apeep or whimper from anyone. Was every knowldgeable muslim at the time a hardened paganist that no protest or a breakaway sect resulted. this would appear to quite astonshing. I am not aware of any Muslim who has recorded this event for nearly 1500 yrs. Yet you are so convinced of you own theory. You articles are the only ones to raise this issue since the advent of Quran...which appears quite incredible.
I would appreciate if you could answer my question directly.
regards -
Hello,
The links you have provided do nott represent any historical evidence that Mecca/kebba were corruption introuced by latter day Muslims and there were any dissenting voices.
If you consider non-muslim accounts of Islam, you get the following
Beginning with Muameth for 9 years
Abubacharus for 3 years
Umar for 12 years
Uthman for 10 years
xxxx
anarchy and war for 4 years
xxxx
Mabias for 19 years
Hezit for 3 years
Marva for 1 year
Abdemelech for 21 years
Iulit for 10 years
Suleiman for 3 years
Umar for 2 years
Izith for 3 years
Isan for 19 years
Ulit for 1 year
Izitolipsus for 1 year
Marva for 6 years
xxxx
Abulabas for 4 years
Abugiaphar for 21 years
Maadi his son for 10 years
Muse his son for 1 year
Aaron his brother for 20 years
anarchy and war against their sons for 7 years
up until the 11th year of the current indictionref www.attalus.org/translate/syntomon.html
If we start with 818 and trace back to the point where the Umayyads were toppled by Abbasids, we get to Abul Abbas, we get to about 755(+/-5), and if we go further to the point of Uthman, we get to about 662(+/-2). It is this year (or its whereabouts) when anarchy and war was rampant throughout the "Saracen" world.
We see that these two cycles - from mid 600s to mid 700s, and from there on till early 800s is a span of about 200 hundred years. A lot can happen in this time and opposition can be "crushed" decisively.
In 1857, did anyone think that the Indian subcontinent would be split into two nations in exactly 90 years? Based on religion? i.e. Pakistan (E/W) and Bhaarat?
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Peace warner,
This is what you said earlier
According to your explanation of 52, 8 34 , 2217, if disbelievers and Mushriks were part of the ?institution of hearing and obeying the forbidden?
I never said that according to 52, 834, 2217 disbelievers were part of al-masjid al-haram.
Now you are saying this
I was reffering to your below post particularly the sentences I have underlined in Bold.
According to your explanation the disbelievers were part of the institution of hearing and obeying the forbidden. The same institution you referring to set our target to.and you underlined explanation of 919 and 928. Is that the same as 52, 834, 2217 ? I hope you now understand why I said what I said.
The God never sanctioned the participation of disbelievers in al-masjid al-haram. That was a wrong practice going on which is being referred to in 917-919 in a tone of disapproval, and in 928 The God corrected/abolished that practice.
Since having only the institution of hearing and obeying the forbidden as the full time target will leave out other commands don?t you think we should also have our targets towards ?other institutions of hearing and obeying (masajid) that deal with commandments other than the restrictions/forbidden?.
No it won't leave out other commands. The other masajid can only be subservient to al-masjid al-haram. If al-masjid al-haram is your basic target/goal, all other masajid will automatically become your target/goal as well. I already gave you the explanation how but you have ignored it. I will repost it for you
One of the forbidden things which is also the most important one is not setting up partners with The God. Another forbidden thing according to 6152 and 1325 is not breaking the pledges made to The God. When you keep those two as your target/goal, you will automatically do all the other things you mentioned as well.
3660 "Did I not pledge to you, O Children of Adam, that you should not serve the devil for he is your most ardent enemy?"
263 And We took your covenant, and raised the mount to be above you "Take what We have given you with strength, and remember what is in it that you may be righteous."
283 And We took the covenant of the Children of Israel "You shall not serve except God, and regard your parents, and regard the relatives, and orphans, and needy, and say kind things to the people, and uphold the salat, and contribute towards betterment." But then you turned away, except a few of you; you were objecting.
512 God has taken the covenant of the Children of Israel and sent from them twelve representatives, and God said "I am with you if you uphold the salat, and contribute towards betterment, and believe in My messengers, and support them, and give God a loan of righteousness; then I will cancel your sins and admit you into estates with rivers flowing beneath." Whoever rejects after this from you, then he has strayed from the path.
337 And when We took from the prophets their covenant. And from you, and from Noah, and Abraham, and Moses, and Jesus the son of Mary; We took from them a strong covenant.
1325 As for those who break the pledge of God after making its covenant, and they sever what God ordered that it be delivered, and they corrupt in the Earth; to those is a curse and they will have a miserable abode.
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Peace Tanveer,
Wherever is not each and every moment. Wherever is each and every place.
You might want to discuss that with Ayman who adamantly disagrees...
Had you taken time to sincerely and patiently look for the truth, you would have seen that wherever implies at all times. Are you somewhere now? This somewhere is one of those "wherever". Are you somewhere else 1 minute from now. This somewhere else is one of those "wherever". So "wherever" implies all the time. This is an indisputable logical fact.
Please don't shove your conjectures and fabrications and lies as facts !
Where is your evidence that masjid does not mean masjid?
http//images.google.com/images?client=firefox-a&channel=s&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&hl=en&q=masjid&btnG=Search+Images
It is IMPOSSIBLE to distinguish a hypocrite from a believer by facing a physical building.
Try convincing one of these guys to turn.
http//www.chavaroth.com/images/artsm/menAtWall.jpg
It is IMPOSSIBLE to face a certain physical building when one is at a point on Earth directly opposite to that building.
ETC. ETC. ETC.Now we are back to earlier replies?
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13210.msg110960#msg110960
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Peace Ayman,
The god clearly tells us that "al-masjid al-haram" IS THE TRUTH FROM OUR LORD.
THE ENTIRE QUR?AN IS THE TRUTH FROM OUR LORD!
You couldn't find any instance of "7ythu ma" (indefinite wherever) in the great reading to argue with against me, did you?
Perhaps someone more knowledgeable can help me with this?
?aythu? used with ?Fawalli? ? appears singular to address ?one face? in any place.
?aythu M? is only used in conjunction with ?Fawall? ? plural to address ?many faces? in many ?places? EVERYWHERE.
Wa Min aythu Kharajta Fawalli Wajhaka Shara Al-Masjidi Al-armi Wa 'Innahu Lalaqqu Min Rabbika Wa M Allhu Bighfilin
Amm Tamalna (Al-Baqarah 149).Wa Min aythu Kharajta Fawalli Wajhaka Shara Al-Masjidi Al-armi Wa aythu M Kuntum Fawall Wujhakum Sharahu Li'all Yakna Lilnnsi
Alaykum ujjatun 'Ill Al-Ladhna ?alam Minhum Fal Takhshawhum Wa Akhshawn Wa Li'atimma NimatAlaykum Wa Laallakum Tahtadna (Al-Baqarah 150).002.149
PICKTHAL And whencesoever thou comest forth (for prayer, O Muhammad) turn thy face toward the Inviolable Place of Worship. Lo! it is the Truth from thy Lord. Allah is not unaware of what ye do.002.150
PICKTHAL Whencesoever thou comest forth turn thy face toward the Inviolable Place of Worship; and wheresoever ye may be (O Muslims) turn your faces toward it (when ye pray) so that men may have no argument against you, save such of them as do injustice - Fear them not, but fear Me! - and so that I may complete My grace upon you, and that ye may be guided.All Prophets/believers should have a target/goal towards the truth from their lord.
What were all Prophets before command came to turn facing; not the truth?
Peace
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maxq wrote
If you consider non-muslim accounts of Islam, you get the following...
In 1857, did anyone think that the Indian subcontinent would be split into two nations in exactly 90 years? Based on religion? i.e. Pakistan (E/W) and Bhaarat?
u seem to have provided the chronolgy from not only a non-muslim, but also a non-arab source!
...yet it seems to suggest 624 a.d as the start of the "saracen" rule!
...according to the article, muhammad ruled for 9 years, after which abu bakr took over...which puts the start of abu bakr's era at roughly around 632 a.d, which is what arab history tells us!
...so i dunno what u are trying to tell bro! -)
...and are u discounting arab history...if yes, what for?
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ahmedbahgat wrote
How are you man, long time no personal hearbleddy not good bro....but never mind! -S
..yups bro...been long time n sure is nice to talk to u again! -)
2145 is clearly about Al masjid Al haram as a physical building, the word SHATR is clear because SHATR means "Half", think of looking an object that far, what you will see is only the half facing you, if it means the non sense some promote in here then the word shatr will be stupid to be in the verse
yeah i know what u mean...all i got when i asked for proof was manipulations and lies...did u read those manipulations and lies? and v were dealing with quranic verses! -)
...i agree that almasjid alharam is a physical place! -)
for 2146 the HU is clearly about Mohamad not about the book, this from comparinig it with thier sons, i.e. a human compared to another human
All the possibilities for the HU are as follow
- the prophet
- the book that was just mentioned in the verse
hmmm...i was considering three possibilities
...muhammad
...the revelation in general
...the changed qibla620 is a similar verse
619 Say "Which thing (is) greater (in) testimony/certification ?" Say "God (is an) honest witness between me and between you (P), and (it is) transmitted/revealed to me this the Koran, to warn you with it and who (was) reached (informed); that you are witnessing/testifying (E), that with God, (are) other Gods." Say "I do not witness/testify." Say "But He is one God, and that I am innocent from what you share (with God)."
620 Those whom We brought to (gave) them The Book , they know it (edit know it/yarifuna hu) as they know their sons, those who lost themselves, so they do not believe.
yeah...i think i will go with "hu" being muhammad...for the very reason u mentioned! -)
knowing a book can be decribed as knowing your children, do you agree?
hmmm...that's an interesting 1...not sure bro! -)
what do u think about "the truth from the lord" in those verses...in context of those verses...
...is it the entire revelation?
...or the assigning of the qibla?
...in the context of the verses, i am very much of the view that it is the assigning of the qibla which god has described as being the truth from it...
also, as v see fro those verses, those who disbelieved were always going to be averse to it...always! -)
how well does god bring forth their disbelief in its words! -)
salam bro! salam! -)
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Peace Nun de plume,
Where is your evidence that masjid does not mean masjid?
I never said that "masjid" does not mean "masjid". Early onset Alzheimer's perhaps ?
If you meant to ask about evidence that "masjid" CAN mean a non physical entity then I already gave all the evidence in an earlier post. Perhaps laziness in addition to Alzheimer's ?
I will repost it for lazy people with Alzheimer's
The word "sujud" according to its usage in al-qur'aan and from classical arabic dictionaries CAN mean a mental submission/obedience, or "understanding and obedience" (cuz when I use "hearing" to metaphorically mean "understanding", tg starts having diarrhea )
For "masjid", which is a derivative of "sujud", I gave two types of evidences
Firstly, linguistic evidence from dictionaries with examples from al-qur'aan
According to Lane Lexicon, "masjid" is any place or a "house" in which one performs the act of "sujood"/submission, or any of the parts of the body that are the places of "sujood"/submission. A PLACE or "house" could be mental or non physical too.
For example
When one hears and obeys a command of The God and mentally submits to it, the mind becomes the part of the body that is the place of submission and thus a "masjid".
According to Dictionaries, a "house" could be non physical too, e.g. House of Commons, House of Representatives, upper house of Congress, lower house of Congress etc.
A "body" could be non physical too, e.g. a law making body of the government, A governing, advisory, or disciplinary body of some colleges and universities
A "place" could be non physical too, e.g.
Person in a high place (job, post, office),
"I would complain if I were in your place" (position, situation, or circumstances),
"It is not your place to offer criticism" (a function or duty),
"My thoughts began to fall into place" (proper sequence or relationship, as of ideas, details, etc...),
"In the first place" (a step or point in order of proceeding),
"There's a place in this town for a man of his talents" (a fitting or promising opportunity),
"This is no place for such an outburst.." (a reasonable ground or occasion) etc.An "institution" can be a place too, e.g. "this college is the best institution of its kind". In this sentence it is obviously not referring to the bricks and walls of the college building as being the best of its kind !! Senate is a model government institution, and a person in Senate is referred to as being in a high place. Here high place does not mean a lofty physical building !! Senate is also the upper house of Congress. Thus we can see how Senate can be a place or a house while being an institution, thus an institution can be a place or a house.
Referencing from Lane Lexicon, "masjid" is any place or a "house" in which one performs the act of "sujood"/submission/hearing and obeying. It can be one's mind, body, a physical building, or an institution as already explained.
One can establish an institution which implements the submission/hearing and obeying of the restrictions according to the God's revelations. This will be like a "house" similar to the upper house of Congress, and a "place" as a believer working for such an institution will be in a high "place". Thus "al-masjid al-haram" can easily be an institution (place, house, masjid) which institutes/implements submission/hearing and obeying (sujood) of the restrictions/forbidden (haram).
Thus we can see that it is NOT IMPOSSIBLE for "al-masjid al-haram" to mean a non physical entity. Just like it is possible to have a non physical "house" of Congress, we can have a non physical "house" of al-haram.
As far as the qur'aanic references that justify this meaning, I will quote the relevant portion of Ayman's article "what's in the name"
So now that we have understood "sujud" based on the reading as "hearing and obeying", everything falls into place. The word "al-masjid" can simply be interpreted as "the institution/implementation of hearing and obeying".
By giving up the human invented proper name "Al-Masjid Al-Haram" and going back to the common "al-masjid al-haram", the meaning suddenly becomes obvious. The word "al-masjid" means "the institution/implementation of hearing and obeying" and "al-haram" means "the forbidden". Putting the two together, we get "the institution/implementation of hearing and obeying the forbidden". In other words, it is a system instituted for implementing hearing the forbidden and actually obeying what is being heard and reflecting it in our actions.
In fact, it is common in the Arabic language to use "masjid" to mean an institution of obedience and not a physical place. Hence, we hear about "al-masjid Al-Azhar" issuing a "fatwa". Of course no one thinks that the physical building of Al-Azhar is capable of issuing a "fatwa" or any edict that is to be obeyed. As we can see, despite all the corruptions of sectarians, the word "masjid" is used still used today to denote an institution of obedience and not a physical building.
Here is another verse that confirms that "masjid" is not the physical building
- And as such, We made them to be found so that they would know that The God?s promise is true and that there is no doubt regarding the hour. They argued amongst themselves regarding their matter, so they said "Construct a building upon them, their Lord is fully aware of them." Those who prevailed in their matter said "We will take an institution of hearing and obeying over them."
Note that in 1821, those who argued said "build a physical building on them". On the other hand, those who prevailed said that they will take a "masjid" in contrast to the physical building.
Verses such as 731 would not make any sense if they were talking about a physical building.
- O descendants of "adam", take your beautiful things at every institution of hearing and obeying, and eat and drink and do not waste; He does not like the wasters.
Do you stop at EVERY Mosque and take some beautiful things? If not and "masjid" means the physical building of a Mosque, then you are disobeying The God according to 731. Verse 731 can be understood in light of 732.
- Say ?Who has forbidden the beautiful things that The God has brought forth for His servants and the good provisions?? Say ?It is for those who had faith in this worldly life, exclusive for them on the day of resurrection?. It is such that We explain the revelations for those who know.
Verse 732 asks a rhetorical question about those who make the beautiful things that The God made forbidden. Of course, we should not obey them and instead we obey The God and our institutions of obedience should promote and allow to prosper the many beautiful things that The God created (take beautiful things at every "masjid".
Now, let us hear some of the verses that tell us about the forbidden
6151-153. Say "Come I will recite what your Lord forbade on you
(1) that do not make anything partner with Him,
(2) and with the parents kindness,
(3) and do not kill your (unborn) children from hardship We provide for you and them,
(4) and do not approach the atrocious deeds, what is visible from it, and what is concealed,
(5) and do not kill the self that The God forbade, except with the truth,
that He directed/commanded you with it, maybe you reason.
(6) And do not approach the orphan's property except with what is best, until he reaches his maturity,
(7) and fulfill the measure and the scale with the equitable,
We do not burden a self except its capacity,
(8 ) and if you speak, so be just, and even if it was a near person,
(9) and fulfill The God's covenant;
that He advised you with, perhaps you remember.
And that is My straight path, so follow it, and do not follow the paths, so they split you from His path. This He advised you
with it, perhaps you be forethoughtful.
Verses such as 733 provides some additional insights
- Say ?My Lord has forbidden all atrocious deeds, what is obvious from them and what is concealed, and sin, and aggression without cause, and that you set-up partners with The God that which He has never authorized, and that you say about The God what you do not know.?
Other verses such as 53 list the forbidden foods.
Now that we understand that "sujud" means "hearing and obeying", are we going to hear and obey what The God forbade in the above verses of the reading or are we going to reject like the people described in verse 8421
- And when the reading is read to them, they do not hear and obey.
The expression "al-masjid al-aqsa" can similarly be interpreted as "the utmost hearing and obeying". Hence, verse 171 can be interpreted as follows
- Most exalted is the One who transferred His servant, from the institution of hearing and obeying of the forbidden to that of utmost hearing and obeying that we have blessed around, in order to show him from our signs. It is He who is the Hearer, the Seer.
The state of utmost/ultimate hearing and obeying is described in verse 7206 in different terms
- Those who are at your Lord, they are never too proud to serve Him, and they exalt Him, and they hear and obey Him.
Verses 531-18 and 8115-23 talk about the signs in 171. According to those verses, the state of "utmost hearing and obeying" is a state that is outside our narrow perception. To get closer to that state we must first go through hearing and obeying the forbidden ("al-masjid al-haram" and we must never be too proud to serve our Lord and exalt Him. Only then we can hope be close to our Lord in a state of utmost hearing and obeying at the garden
- At it is the shelter's garden/paradise.
Additional evidence that "masjid" can be non physical
- It has been made lawful for you during the night of fasting to approach your women sexually. They are a garment for you and you are a garment for them. The God knows that you used to betray your selves so He Has accepted your repentance, and forgiven you; now you may approach them and seek what The God Has written for you. And you may eat and drink until the white thread is distinct from the black thread of daybreak; then you shall complete the fast until night; and do not approach them WHILE you are committed in the institutions of hearing and obeying/"masajid". These are The God's boundaries, so do not transgress them. It is such that The God makes His revelations clear to the people perhaps they may be forethoughtful.
Verse 2187 actually confirms that "masjid" is an institution of hearing and obeying and not a physical Mosque/Temple. Clearly, no sane person would have sexual relations with his or her spouse WHILE in any public place, let alone the local Mosque/Temple, so this part of the sign would be meaningless if one interprets "masajid" as Mosques/Temples. The sign simply says that we shouldn't have sexual relations with our spouses while we are committed to "the institution of the hearing and obeying" (masajid) of The God (such as while we are reciting the great reading in our homes).
Secondly, the evidences that if al-masjid al-haram is interpreted as a physical building it will cause a lot of impossibilities according to the way it has been referred to in al-qur'aan, thus causing contradictions/inconsistancies in al-qur'aan
Facing a particular physical direction WHEREVER one is, is impossible, but it is not impossible for a "masjid" to mean a non physical entity in al-qur'aan.
We are supposed to face "al-masjid al-haram" WHEREVER we are. The God has repeated that many times
2144 We see the shifting of your face towards the sky; We will thus set for you a focal point that will be pleasing to you "You shall set yourself towards the Restricted Temple; and wherever you may be, you shall all set yourselves towards it." Those who have been given the Scripture know it is the truth from their Lord. And God is not unaware of what you do.
2149 And from wherever you go out, you shall set yourself towards the Restricted Temple; it is the truth from your Lord; and God is not unaware of what you do.
2150 And wherever you go out, you shall set yourself towards the Restricted Temple. And wherever you may be you shall set yourselves towards it; that the people will have no room for debate with you, except those of them who are wicked. You shall not fear them, but fear Me; so that I may complete My blessings upon you and that you may be guided.
Let me give practical examples
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You are driving on I-10 (in USA) going west. You are somewhere, right ? Now WHEREVER you are on I-10, according to your fallacious interpretation, you are supposed to face the physical building of Masjid Alharam, how are you going to do it ? Remember, you are sitting in a car, driving on I-10, and you are supposed to be facing the physical building of Masjid Alharam which is supposedly located in Mecca, how are you going to face it in that situation ? If not then you are disobeying 2144, 2149, 2150.
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You are sitting in your friends house watching TV. His furniture is arranged in such a way that when you sit on his sofa, you are facing west. For argument sake, lets say that in that area, the physical building of Majid Alharam is east of you. Now in this situation, you are somewhere right ? How are you going to face the physical building of Masjid Alharam which is to your east, while watching TV facing west ? The only way is by rearranging all the furniture in your friends place so that you can face east. Do you do that when you visit your friends place ? If not you are disobeying 2144, 2149, 2150.
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You are sitting in your own home on the toilet facing west, and Masjid Alharam is towards the east. Now remember that according to 2144 you are supposed to face "al-masjid al-haram" WHEREVER you are. When you are sitting on the toilet, you are somewhere, right ? How can you face Majid Alharam on your east whil you are sitting on a toilet which is built in such a way that you are facing west when you are sitting on it ? If not, then you are disobeying 2144, 2149, 2150.
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You are standing for the salat in USA in a mosque, supposedly facing Masjid Alharam located in Mecca. The only problem is, Masjid Alharam is beyond the horizon in this particular situation. When you are standing during salat, if we draw an imaginary line straight in the direction you are facing, it will extend to a place in sky, so in actuality you are facing a place in the sky, instead of Masjid Alharam. Thus you are disobeying 2144, 2149, 2150.
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You are standing in the so called Kaaba, in Mecca. You have to perform salat in this situation. Which direction do you face ?
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You are sailing on a ship on the Pacific, and you are at a point which is directly opposite where Majid Alharam is located. Which direction do you face ? Actually, ANY direction you face at that point you will be facing the sky, as Masjid Alharam is beyond the horizon. Thus you will be disobeying 2144, 2149, 2150.
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You are on the Moon and the earth is on the opposite side at that particular moment. Which direction do you face while offering salat ? In this situation, if you are not facing the physical Masjid Alharam, then you are disobeying 2144, 2149, 2150.
Thus, if you cannot face the physical Masjid Alharam WHEREVER you are, then is The God asking us to do something that is impossible ? The only way to avoid such a contradiction in al-qur'aan and the only way possible to face "al-masjid al-haram" WHEREVER we are, is if it is a NON PHYSICAL focal point/target/goal.
2143 And as such, We have made you a balanced nation so that you may be witness over the people, and that the messenger may be witness over you. And We did not make the focal point that you became on except to distinguish who follows the messenger from those who will turn on their heels. It was a great thing indeed except for those whom God had guided; God was not to waste your belief. God is Merciful and Compassionate over the people.
According to 2143, the "qibla" distinguishes who folows the messenger from those who will turn on their heels. Now a hypocrite can also face a physical building along with the believers and thus will be INDISTINGUISHABLE from the believers. A hypocrite is the one who will turn on their heels from following the messenger. How will a physical direction/focal point distinguish a hypocrite from the believers ?
Also, if "masjid" as in "al-masjid al-haram" and "al-masjid al-aqsa" is physical, then there should have been physical buildings by those names during the revelation of al-qur'aan, otherwise the relevant passages will make no sense according to your fallacious interpretations. It is an established fact that the physical building by the name of Masjid Al-Aqsa was built in the Ummayad dynasty long after the revelation of al-qur'aan, thus it cannot be "al-masjid al-aqsa" talked about in Chapter 17. Even the staunchest sectarians admit that. If it is a physical building, then which building is "al-masjid al-aqsa" mentioned in 171 ? Please prove it by authentic archeological and authentic historical evidence.
Also, please prove the existence of a physical building by the name of Masjid Al-haram during the qur'aanic time, by authentic archeological and authentic historical evidence.
Also, while you are at it, please prove the existence of a city by the name of Mecca, and the existence of a "bayt" by the name of Kaaba, during the qur'aanic times, by authentic archeological and authentic historical evidence.
I will not answer any further stuff posted by you unless you first respond to my above questions posed to you which demonstrate that it is IMPOSSIBLE for "al-masjid al-haram" to mean a physical building in al-qur'aan according to your fallacious interpretations.
Lets just assume that we are discussing an English concept, and I mention participation in the lower or upper "house" of Congress, and then I mention about some person who is participating in that "house" to be a person in a high "place", would you understand the person participating in a physical building and being in a lofty physical building ? When English language has such concepts, you think that The God cannot use similar concept for "al-masjid", which is similar to the "house" of Congress.
An alternative translation for al-masjid al-haram based on the above would be the "house" of al-haram, which would be the institution of "understanding and obedience" or simply "obedience/submission" of the restrictions/forbidden in the deen (please note that I haven't used "hearing" which tends to give tg diarrhea when I mention it to metaphorically mean "understanding".