Criticism of Mecca and Kaaba
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48 27
Yusuf Ali Truly did Allah fulfil the vision for His Apostle Ye shall enter the Sacred Mosque if Allah wills with minds secure heads shaved hair cut short and without fear. For He knew what ye knew not and He granted besides this a speedy victory.Transliteration Laqad sadaqal la_hu rasu_lahur ruya_ bil haq la tadkhulan nal masjidal hara_ma in sa_ al la_hu a_minina muhal liqina ruu_sakum wa muqash sirina la_ takha_fu_n fa'alima ma_ lam talamu_ fajaala min du_ni za_lika fat hanqariba_
I do not understand this verse properly. What was the vision of the messenger ? Does it say the messenger will enter or the believers or both will enter the sacredc mosque? Is this verse before or after entering the sacred mosque ?
Salam
clear from verse 1 that the whole sura was revealed after the conqueroring of Mecca PEACEFULLY, the Kufar just surrndered, please read the whole sura as one piece
Salam
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warner wrote
Lets kindly stop accusing each other Kafir, munafiq and hypocrite although clearly some are misguided and some here twist the truth and some chose evidence from each source only if it fits their adamant theory.Let us strive to find the truth without letting anything cloud and deceive our minds and intelligence.and also things like idolising the quran and the kaaba! -)
i remember maxq and i were discussing some work...and i said that to me the article was partly based on the assumption that the sources were dependable! he responded by saying that to him the material fitted in with the quran! -)
...v both had r views and v both tried to leave it at"if that's what u think!" grin
then again, is wilful distortion of quran and lying about it an act of faith?
i have been to a number of boards/sites/rooms which manipulate the quran...and talked to many score non-muslims and others who adopt a similar approach (of manipulating the quran)...they will ascribe to quran that which isnt true and build their hypothesis thence...and i dont see any of this as an act of faith!
u said "although clearly some are misguided and some here twist the truth and some chose evidence from each source only if it fits their adamant theory." is that an "accusation"?
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Salam Ahmed
Thank you for the reply. Why does the verse say "God willing" as if it is a thing which going to happen in the future.
Salam bro
Actaully the word Shaa is past tense, so it can be accepted that it was talking about a past event, while Allah is not restriected to any time line, I believe it may be a lesson from Him to us to confirm His mighty power as if if He did not want this to happen then it would have never happened even if it related to the believers, exactly as He made them lose Uhud battle
Allah knows best
Salam
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Abrar wrote on Dec. 26 at 095920
Chapter 53 verse 7 to 9
"7.While he was at the highest horizon.
8.Then he drew nearer by moving down.
9.Until he became as near as two bow-lengths or nearer."Do I understand that you mean that these verses are about God? I think they describe the first encounter of Jibrael with Muhammad.
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Peace T
Good post on the root theory.
You can include, coming up with the most bizarre theories in the situation where we do not understand something in the Quraan or we still not have found an answer, to the list. Also bringing historical evidence blindly. Historical evidence whether hadeeth, Roman Christian or other sources can not be used to reach concrete conclusions at most they can be supporting evidence. Then again any supporting evidence is good as the one against it.
I do not believe compromising is faith. Just because a theory fits perfectly to one or few individuals does not mean it?s correct. Allah will not mislead us or confuse us if we seek knowledge and strive in His path.
I did not mean to accuse. It was a generalization of the attitude of the thread and I can not shield away some of the blame from me either. What I meant was leave the foolish and the ignorant without being angry with them. Instead of fighting and calling names we should bring our collective knowledge and available evidences to find the truth but instead each one of us keep stubbornly defending our theories and reject others without even listening to what they got to say.
3 19
Yusuf Ali The Religion before Allah is Islam (submission to His will) nor did the people of the Book dissent therefrom except through envy of each other after knowledge had come to them. But if any deny the Signs of Allah Allah is swift in calling to account. -
Salaam Tanweer
Your article on the restricted temple is excellent, thank you.
I have two comments- Those who have rejected/unappreciated and repelled from the path of The God and the institution of hearing and obeying the restriction that we had appointed/established for the people, equally the one committed in it and the one who left to find clarity. And whoever deviates in it with falsely attributing with injustice, we will cause them to taste from a painful suffering.
With the Arabic word "sawaa' " we usually expect opposite words, so it will be equally the one committed (in applying/studying/teaching it) and those who are distant (on-lookers/learners/listeners) ; or any other explanation that you may find better, but within these "opposite" "contrary" meanings.
The other comment is "..the path of The God and the institution of hearing and obeying the restriction that we had appointed (it) for the people..." The "it" in English is irrelevant, but in Arabic, and in this context, is quite important , as it may indicate that (the path of The God and the institution of H.O.R) are one and the same, because of the singular pronoun "it".
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warner wrote
Good post on the root theory.You can include, coming up with the most bizarre theories in the situation where we do not understand something in the Quraan or we still not have found an answer, to the list.
u r right bro...and u can apply it to many instances...if needed v ll explore this further! -)
...and it's not just the roots bro...if v take a word or verse out of context...v can manipulate it to come up with a desired meaning...i gave some examples of how v can use perverse logic to assign a desired meaning to a word taken out of context! -)
Also bringing historical evidence blindly. Historical evidence whether hadeeth, Roman Christian or other sources can not be used to reach concrete conclusions at most they can be supporting evidence. Then again any supporting evidence is good as the one against it.
exactly...also, islamic traditions and arab history are two different things! and there is no reason to believe the roman christians and other non-muslims and non-arabs have any more credibility than the arabs!
I do not believe compromising is faith. Just because a theory fits perfectly to one or few individuals does not mean its correct. Allah will not mislead us or confuse us if we seek knowledge and strive in His path.
a theory should have a start bro....assumptions do not make a theory! -)
I did not mean to accuse. It was a generalization of the attitude of the thread and I can not shield away some of the blame from me either. What I meant was leave the foolish and the ignorant without being angry with them. Instead of fighting and calling names we should bring our collective knowledge and available evidences to find the truth but instead each one of us keep stubbornly defending our theories and reject others without even listening to what they got to say.
i dont think u made an "accusation"...ur statements were factual! -)
bro ahmedbahgat has prepared an article which raise some good questions! -)
Can someone give me the origin, compilation and periods of earliest Arabic lexicons/dictionaries. Even any links on this subject will help.
lane's and muhit are 19th century works!
...taj and lisan are at the start of 14th century...
...while qamus at the very end of the 13th century...around 700 years after the accepted time of muhammad's birth! -)
peace bro! -)
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samia wrote
The other comment is "..the path of The God and the institution of hearing and obeying the restriction that we had appointed (it) for the people..." The "it" in English is irrelevant, but in Arabic, and in this context, is quite important , as it may indicate that (the path of The God and the institution of H.O.R) are one and the same, because of the singular pronoun "it".the "hu" is linked to "alladhi"! -)
what do u mean by the "it" in english is irrelevant? -)
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Peace be with you
God sent the revelation and books to Messengers of old who delivered the message. The part of the message was followed but part of it was neglected, changed and concealed. Part of it still survive in various books along with man made additions and changes. When the Quraan was revealed people already built synagogues, churches, masjids, temples to pray to Allah or to any thing they thought is divine. They had complicated beliefs, rituals and prayer methods. The Torah and the Gospel ( Judaism and Christianity) are more biased towards the traditional view of prayer ( not the traditional 5 times salat with 17 compulsory actions and recitations but the basic salat/prayer as explained in the Quraan) and the place of prayer and the direction. Quraan came to explain to a world full of Jews and Christians what is wrong with the books they have and the existing beliefs, practices and worship. It is the criterion which identifies the truth from falsehood. Criterion of choosing what is right and what is wrong.
Does the Quraan explain clearly that masjid is not a place (building or open air) to remember God but an institution of hearing and obeying.
Does the Quraan clearly explain that salat is not prayer but learning or meditation.
Is it clear in explaining that Qibla is a target and not a direction of prayer.
To a Jew or a Christian who is already following what is in the Torah and the Bible is the Quraan confusing or clear in distinguishing established practices with the truth?
Have we put the criterion in to clear use
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I have been away, sick and without regular connection for about a month. That's why my comments might sound a bit "ou-dated". I apologize for that. I have been on this interesting thread -thanks to phoenix1- the whole of today.
tg wrote
- We see the turning of thy face (for guidance to the heavens now Shall We turn thee to a Qibla that shall please thee. Turn then Thy face in the direction of the sacred Mosque Wherever ye are, turn your faces in that direction. The people of the Book know well that that is the truth from their Lord. Nor is Allah unmindful of what they do.
seems clear that the people of the book knew that the assignment of the qibla is indeed the truth from their lord!
and Tanweer agreed with him
I agree with tg here, and disagree with AB's fallacious interpretation (what's new ). Still it does not mean that al-masjid al-haram is a physical building (for which tg has provided ZERO evidence so far, and hasn't answered a single question posed to him earlier and keeps lying about it being physical ). Thus the assignment of qibla, which is a mental target/goal, is the truth from our Lord, and when we follow such a mental target/goal we are indeed following the truth from our Lord, which Ayman is implying.
but I disagree that the pronouns suffixed to the verb "know" in "The people of the Book know well that it is the truth from their Lord - ) cannot refer to the "gibla" because gibla is feminine and the pronoun is masculine. Nor would it refer to "assignment" because in the Arabic origin this noun, or rather verbal noun, does not exist, but there is a verb "we assign you" which cannot be refered to by a pronoun.
So, Tanweer, stick to your original explanation of "they know well that it "i.e the masjidil haram, or the turning towards the masjidil haram" is the truth from their Lord" -
Peace Layth,
It is good to hear from you.
Recently while speaking with some sunnis, they told me that the Kaaba was not the same shape as it is today, but that it was more rectangular and that it encompassed the
footprintsof Abraham. they said that this was before the prophet`s time and that the Kaaba was made smaller when it was rebuilt by Quraish.Layth, this just proves that as usual, the Sunnis are the most ignorant about their own "sacred shrine". The Sunni legends actually claim that the so-called Kaaba encompassed the area called Al-7ateem. This is the semi-circular wall along the north side of the Kaaba. This is why it is forbidden to spin around the cuboid through this area because it would be as if you entered the cuboid. According to Sunni scholars, doing so nullifies ones' pilgrimage.
I looked into this issue a bit more, simply because I have held the view that the maqam must be inside the structure which is why I reject the Mecca kaaba.
If this is really all that you see wrong in the so-called Kaaba and Mecca then I feel sorry for you.
Anyhow, it came out that in 64 A.H, after the kaaba`s walls were demolished in a seige by the Syrian army, Abdulla Bin Al-Zubair took advantage of the reconstruction to fix the contradiction of the Mecca kaaba with the Quran and went ahead and changed its size and shape to encompass the maqam (he also added another door so people could enter and exit the kaaba).
You are confusing the so called Maqam of Ibrahim with the area called Al-7ateem. This area is also called 7ijr Ismail. According to sectarian legends, this is the area where Ismail grew up as a baby and this is where he and other prophets are buried. Again, they claim that it is a sacred area that was part of the interior of the so-called Kaaba.
More objectively speaking, it is normal to find such semicircular areas on the north side of pagan shrines. The north side (the side of the cold and the shadows) in paganism represented the underworld. The border between the underworld and the world was represented by a semi-circular wall formed of earth and stones or granite. The semi-circle shape symbolizes the pregnant belly of the fertility mother goddess. From behind this border the temple priests would bring out from underneath the earth an image of the newborn idol and it would be carried seven times around the sanctuary (with the pilgrims following it) to celebrate the idol's annual rebirth.
Sectarians simply took their pagan traditions and tailored it to the new religion. So now instead of this being the underworld where the image of the idol is buried, it is where the Ismail is buried. Instead of it being the belly where the new idol grew, it is now the lap ("7ijr" where he grew. Etc.
However, in 74 A.H. Al-Hajjaj Bin Yousif sought permission from the Khalifa (Abdulmalik bin Marwan to bring the kaaba back to the way it was and he therefore took out the new section, brought the maqam out, and sealed the 2nd door.
This again demonstrates the ignorance of Sunnis about their beloved shrine. In reality, the so-called Kaaba still has two doors, Bab Al-Kaaba and Bab Al-Tawba.
My friends also mentioned that the well of zam-zam went dry and was burried for 300 years before the prophet
s uncle had a dream and they dug-up the ground during the prophets time which became zam-zam again (so much for the magic well!).Layth, tell your friend that such sacred eternal wells are typically associated with fertility goddesses. It is also typical that their water is said to have the power to heal all ills. All this of course is completely pagan and has nothing to do with the great reading.
Also, such fertility goddesses typically have associated with them footprints. In those footprints, good fortune and flowers sprang up! So those footprints were encased and made into a vase so that the "faithful" can place flowers in them.
http//img180.imageshack.us/img180/2438/footprintqj6.jpg
This brings me back to my earlier point. I feel sorry that you only see that the PLACEMENT of a footprint idol encased in a copper vase is all that is wrong in the so-called Kaaba and Mecca and the fact that it is a footprint idol in the first place doesn't seem to bother you one bit. Brother, isn't it about time that you refocus?
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace sister Samia,
I have been away, sick and without regular connection for about a month. That's why my comments might sound a bit "ou-dated". I apologize for that. I have been on this interesting thread -thanks to phoneix1- the whole of today.
It is great to see you back. We miss your knowledgeable and valuable contributions. I pray that the god be with you and helps you recover fully.
and Tanweer agreed with him
but I disagree that the pronouns suffixed to the verb "know" in "The people of the Book know well that it is the truth from their Lord - ) cannot refer to the "gibla" because gibla is feminine and the pronoun is masculine. Nor would it refer to "assignment" because in the Arabic origin this noun, or rather verbal noun, does not exist, but there is a verb "we assign you" which cannot be refered to by a pronoun.
So, Tanweer, stick to your original explanation of "they know well that it "i.e the masjidil haram, or the turning towards the masjidil haram" is the truth from their Lord"Thank you for clarifying this issue sister. I think that 2144 when put together with 2149 makes it absolutely clear that "al-masjid al-haram" is none other than the "truth from our lord". All that it takes to know it as we know our own children is not a map or a compass on a prayer rug but that we are given the book, in our case the great reading.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace sister Samia,
The other comment is "..the path of The God and the institution of hearing and obeying the restriction that we had appointed (it) for the people..." The "it" in English is irrelevant, but in Arabic, and in this context, is quite important , as it may indicate that (the path of The God and the institution of H.O.R) are one and the same, because of the singular pronoun "it".
Thank you for this enlightening observation. Indeed the god guides whom he wills to a straight path is what we are told about at the very beginning of 2142-150.
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
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Peace sister Samia,
We really missed you on this forum. I pray to The God for your health and hope you have recovered fully by the will of The God.
but I disagree that the pronouns suffixed to the verb "know" in "The people of the Book know well that it is the truth from their Lord - ) cannot refer to the "gibla" because gibla is feminine and the pronoun is masculine. Nor would it refer to "assignment" because in the Arabic origin this noun, or rather verbal noun, does not exist, but there is a verb "we assign you" which cannot be refered to by a pronoun.
So, Tanweer, stick to your original explanation of "they know well that it "i.e the masjidil haram, or the turning towards the masjidil haram" is the truth from their Lord"Thank you for the correction. I should have known better than to agree with tg on this based on his credibility on this thread !! Now that I am rethinking about this, "almasjid alharam" being the truth from our Lord makes perfect sense.
With the Arabic word "sawaa' " we usually expect opposite words, so it will be equally the one committed (in applying/studying/teaching it) and those who are distant (on-lookers/learners/listeners) ; or any other explanation that you may find better, but within these "opposite" "contrary" meanings.
I had adopted brother Ayman's translation of this verse. Perhaps he is in a better position to comment on this. Following is the explanation he gave me last year about the meaning of "al-baadi" in 2225
If we look under the Arabic root "BDW", we will find that it has meanings such as "made apparent/clear" (3947-48, 4533, etc.), "occur to/think of" (1235), and "left where they were" (3320). The word "badw" is applied to people who leave where they are to search for something such as grazing places or water. So we can see that the themes of leaving, searching and making clear/apparent are the main themes that run through that word. Thus, "al-baadi" in the context of 2225 is someone who left what they were on (examples include Christianity, Sunnism, or any inherited dogma). They left in order to search for what ? From the other meanings of "BDW", it can be deduced that they left to search for clarity. Thus, the translation of "al-baadi" is "one who left to search for clarity".
The other comment is "..the path of The God and the institution of hearing and obeying the restriction that we had appointed (it) for the people..." The "it" in English is irrelevant, but in Arabic, and in this context, is quite important , as it may indicate that (the path of The God and the institution of H.O.R) are one and the same, because of the singular pronoun "it".
Thank you for your observation, which is yet another proof that "almasjid alharam" is not a physical building. I had made a similar observation in my article on "almasjid alharam"
Another point to note is that at the beginning of the verse 2225, The God says that He appointed/established the path of The God AND al-masjid al-haram. He uses the same word "ja'alna" for both. Now the path of Allah is not a physical road or highway, so if one takes "ja'alna" to mean "physically made" then "path of Allah" will not fit that meaning. The only way "ja'alna" can be used for both path of Allah and "al-masjid al-haram" is if both were non-physical.
May the God bless you for your efforts and may He guide us all to the straight path.
Peace
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Peace all,
Thank you brother warner for the reminder. Indeed I had forgotten what the God tells us in al-qur'aan
494 O you who believe, if you strike in the cause of God then make a clear declaration, and do not say to those who greet you with peace "You are not a believer!" You are seeking the vanity of this world; but with God are many riches. That is how you were before, but God favoured you, so make a clear declaration. God is expert over what you do.
I will advise others and especially tg to heed this also.
Regarding tg's remarks, most fitting here would be ...
2855 And if they come across vain talk, they disregard it and say "To us are our deeds, and to you is your deeds. Peace be upon you. We do not seek the ignorant."
So I am going to disregard tg's remarks and say to him "To me are my deeds and to you are your deeds. Peace be upon you. I do not seek the ignorant."
PS While I was writing this post, I did a little research and noticed that tg has not been greeting me with peace anyway, so maybe I did not disobey 494 after all
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samia wrote
I have been away, sick and without regular connection for about a month. That's why my comments might sound a bit "ou-dated". I apologize for that. I have been on this interesting thread -thanks to phoenix1- the whole of today.
tg wrote
Quote
2144. We see the turning of thy face (for guidance to the heavens now Shall We turn thee to a Qibla that shall please thee. Turn then Thy face in the direction of the sacred Mosque Wherever ye are, turn your faces in that direction. The people of the Book know well that that is the truth from their Lord. Nor is Allah unmindful of what they do.seems clear that the people of the book knew that the assignment of the qibla is indeed the truth from their lord!
besides the verse which u took the trouble of singling out from my quote, after being on the thread "the whole of today", i quoted some more verses!
still let us see what u intend! -)
But I disagree that the pronouns suffixed to the verb "know" in "The people of the Book know well that it is the truth from their Lord - ) cannot refer to the "gibla" because gibla is feminine and the pronoun is masculine.
so u are breaking down what i say....hmmm...let us see what u can get to! -)
yes...others know that qibla is feminine...and u are the only person around here who is exploring the possibility of linking the feminine "qibla" with the masculine "hu"!
Nor would it refer to "assignment" because in the Arabic origin this noun, or rather verbal noun, does not exist, but there is a verb "we assign you" which cannot be refered to by a pronoun.
...nuwaliyyanaka here signifies a command...which is why it is a good idea to read what somebody's says in a proper context and not disregard it (the context)! -)
i said the assignment of the qibla is the truth from the lord which should be clear enough to average and above-average peepz..ur attempting to break down what i said is the cause of ur confusion! -)
let us read what the quran says
2142 The foolish of the people will say What hath turned them from the qiblah which they formerly observed? Say Unto Allah belong the East and the West. He guideth whom He will unto a straight path.
read! -)
the disbelievers seem to be disenchanted with the believers adopting a new qibla! but the believers, unlike the disbelievers, do not do things of their own will rather as god commands them! it follows that they took up the new qibla following a command from god!
...it was this command of god assigning the qibla for the believers that has been called the truth from the lord! -)
u r probably too sick to have read this...but maybe now u will
i wrote
v saw the lie that "the truth" is almasjid alharam...when in fact the verses are quite clear that the command of god assigning the qibla is "the truth"! -)
i will excuse ur unintentional fiddling with my words....but dont make a habit of it! -)
now then...what gender does "state of mind" or "being committed to qibla" belong to? -)