Criticism of Mecca and Kaaba
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samia wrote
The other comment is "..the path of The God and the institution of hearing and obeying the restriction that we had appointed (it) for the people..." The "it" in English is irrelevant, but in Arabic, and in this context, is quite important , as it may indicate that (the path of The God and the institution of H.O.R) are one and the same, because of the singular pronoun "it".the "hu" is linked to "alladhi"! -)
...what are u trying to say?
...that sabeel of god and almasjid alharam are the same thing...is that it? -)
2190 Waqatiloo fee sabeeli Allahi allatheena yuqatiloonakum wala taAAtadoo inna Allaha la yuhibbu almuAAtadeena
2191 Waoqtuloohum haythu thaqiftumoohum waakhrijoohum min haythu akhrajookum waalfitnatu ashaddu mina alqatli wala tuqatiloohum AAinda almasjidi alharami hatta yuqatilookum feehi fa-in qatalookum faoqtuloohum kathalika jazao alkafireena2190 Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors.
2191 And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith.fight them in the sabeel of god and slay them where u catch them!
but...
fight them not at almasjid alharam unless they fight u!
now u can add 1 and 1....right? -)
which is why it's necessary to read quran....poor knowledge of arabic and english is cool...but quran....! no -)
again, what do u mean by the "it" in english is irrelevant? -)
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tanveer wrote
494 O you who believe, if you strike in the cause of God then make a clear declaration, and do not say to those who greet you with peace "You are not a believer!" You are seeking the vanity of this world; but with God are many riches. That is how you were before, but God favoured you, so make a clear declaration. God is expert over what you do.I will advise others and especially tg to heed this also.
yeah..good advice!
i remember u advising somebody a few days back to fear god and not invent lies against it...
...now is a good time for u to ponder over ur good advices! -)
Regarding tg's remarks, most fitting here would be ...
2855 And if they come across vain talk, they disregard it and say "To us are our deeds, and to you is your deeds. Peace be upon you. We do not seek the ignorant."
So I am going to disregard tg's remarks and say to him "To me are my deeds and to you are your deeds. Peace be upon you. I do not seek the ignorant."
cool...but just lemme know whether u have decided...sans brackets...whether having sex with the spouse is being committed or being not committed to almasjid alharam...whatever u think it means! -S
PS While I was writing this post, I did a little research and noticed that tg has not been greeting me with peace anyway, so maybe I did not disobey 494 after all
right....maybe...but if how u have used the quran so far is any indication...maybe not.... -)
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Peace everyone,
What is noticeable on this thread is that the people such as Mr. Smiley Face -) and Ahmed who obstinately defend their beloved objects in so-called Mecca have really not presented anything to prove the credibility of those very objects that they are defending. So for their benefit, I will try to give everyone a closer look at what they are defending. One day they may visit the place and even take their children there to see all the attractions that Mecca has to offer. Until then, they can see a glimpse right here.
http//img519.imageshack.us/img519/5589/136ng8.jpg
This is the so-called Kaaba and the so-called Maqam Ibrahim. Like the words of the defenders of idols, they are decorated to look pretty, especially from a distance. The cuboid's height is longer than the other dimensions to give it a dramatic look.
Let's take a closer look. Let's take a look at the naked Kaaba
http//img519.imageshack.us/img519/8065/2kabahdressft8.jpg
The naked Kaaba doesn't look as pretty as the previous picture. Perhaps this is why the Saudis insist on dressing it in a black dress.
One more fact that most people who defend the cuboid idol do not know is that it is actually surrounded by a pedestal. You would have to get really close to see it. In one section of the pedestal is set a tile that has seven stones in it. People venerate those stones and pilgrims make a special effort to prostrate in front of those stones. This is what you are physically facing when you face the so-called Kaaba
http//img243.imageshack.us/img243/2140/3kaabapedestalqq3.jpg
The pedestal itself is considered part of the Kaaba so pilgrims are not allowed to step on it. Sectarian scholars say that whoever steps on the pedestal his pilgrimage becomes nullified.
For comparison purposes and since the defenders of the cuboid love its shape, I am sure they won't mind seeing some similar shapes.
http//img186.imageshack.us/img186/8889/4petradjinnblockslo3.jpg
Notice the pedestals lining the bottom of each cuboid whose height is longer than the other dimensions. Those are jinn block like the one in Mecca. Sometimes they were enhanced with facial features as seen here (notice the pedestal again)
http//img407.imageshack.us/img407/3543/5blockpetrahl9.jpg
Let's continue our tour of the cuboid idol. Of course no visit to the pagan theme park in Mecca would be complete without a look at the sectarians' revered Black Stone.
And voila! This is what you are physically facing when you face the so-called Kaaba
http//img300.imageshack.us/img300/7017/6hajraswadlc7.jpg
As we can see, it is not actually a black stone but it is a bunch of small stones that are set in a reddish epoxy. So if the defenders of Mecca went all the way there and expected to see a black stone they will be disappointed. What their forefathers named the Black Stone is not. It is just a name that has nothing to do with reality.
Here is an even closer look
http//img113.imageshack.us/img113/7458/7theblackstone02vu3.jpg
The picture speaks for itself.
This miserable object is what people are facing when they are facing the Kaaba.
Let's take an even closer look
http//img177.imageshack.us/img177/4416/8theblackstonecloseupby4.jpg
Show this to your sons or daughters. Tell them the truth. Tell them that this is gloomy object is what you are physically facing when you face the so-called Kaaba.
Now let's visit some of the other attractions in this pagan wonderland. This is the place that the sectarians Named Maqam Ibrahim
http//img180.imageshack.us/img180/2779/9maqamibrahimfq5.jpg
It looked pretty from a distance. Now let's take a closer look
http//img442.imageshack.us/img442/1479/91maqamibrahim2fx6.jpg
Again, like the so-called Black Stone, up close it looks pretty dreary.
Notice the flower motif all the way around the copper vase-shaped footprints enclosure. This flower motif around the footprints is not coincidental but has ancient symbolism.
Let's take an even closer look
http//img120.imageshack.us/img120/8995/92maqamibrahim1sj5.jpg
Again notice the flower motif all the way around the vase. Again, show this to your sons or daughters. Would Mr. Smiley Face -) and Ahmed tell them with a straight face -|that this gloomy object is what they believe is the CLEAR signs mentioned in 397?
This concludes our tour of the most visited theme park after Disney World.
What does the above have to do with the great reading? Nothing! So the appeals of Mr. Smiley Face -) and Ahmed to the great reading to justify revering those objects are exactly the same as the appeals of sectarians to "obey the messenger" to justify following Bukhari.
How were those filthy pagan idols introduced into our obligation to the god? We are seeing it right here in this forum. We see how Mr. Smiley Face -) and Ahmed are looking at the great reading through their inherited forefathers distorted lens and (not surprisingly) are only seeing their inherited idols and mindless rituals.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace all,
Yet another example of deception and hiding and manipulating words of The God by tg D
Here is what 2190 says
2190 And fight in the path of God against those who fight you, but do not transgress, God does not like the aggressors.
and here is what 2191 says
2191 And kill them wherever you find them, and expel them from where they expelled you, and know that persecution is worse than being killed. And do not fight them at almasjid alharam unless they fight you IN it; if they fight you then kill them, thus is the reward of the disbelievers.
Notice that in both verses the red parts are saying the same thing i.e. fight in the path of God or almasjid alharam those who fight you, thus clearly showing that they are not different.
Now notice what tg says
fight them in the sabeel of god and slay them where u catch them!
Notice how he deliberately omitted "against those who fight you" in this sentence, which is there in the verse.
Now see what he says next
fight them not at almasjid alharam unless they fight u!
Notice how he deliberately omitted IN IT at the end of this sentence which is there in the verse.
He deliberately omitted them cuz then there would be no difference in the underlying meaning between the two sentences.
"Fight in the sabeel of God against those who fight you" is the same as "fight them not at the sabeel of God unless they fight you in it", and "fight them not at masjid alharam unless they fight you in it" is the same as "fight in masjid alharam against those who fight you".
This clearly exposes tg's deception and his manipulations of the words of The God.
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Inner and outer peace to all,
Wow Ayman, what pictures!
I have a question. I'm questionning myself about the musjid mentionned in another post the one in Madina with two quiblas which was destroyed and rebuilt in the 90's. Was the one destroyed in the 90's the original? How could one distinquish the two directions? Most importantly, were they at 180 degrees from each other? If what was destroyed was the original, than surely there are witnesses.
thanks
adjwi
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Not sure you have heard of the story where two jews were alleged to have dug an underground tunnel to get to the prophet's grave in Madina from their house which was close to the vacinity? I forget whether that was in the time of the Abbasids or not. It was then that the Caliph of this time erected an underground wall of lead around the shrine (Ruzah Mubarak) of the prophet and banned all non-muslims from Madina and Mecca (according to tradition).
It could be that the mosque was rebuilt (and the qiblah may have even been changed) in those times already, and perhaps this incident of the jews digging a tunnel was merely a diversion.
Anyone heard of this story?
PS What is even more scary, is that if there were two jews digging a tunnel to the prophet's grave, (or whoever they were,) what were they trying to prove! o
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Addendum... this incedent is said to have occured in the time of Nooruddeen Zangi. And it is alleged it was two christians and not jews. It is possible it was a hijack of an earlier story since this was time of the Crusades when the "infidel" christians had conquered Jerusalem.
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Salam Ayman,
This brings me back to my earlier point. I feel sorry that you only see that the PLACEMENT of a footprint idol encased in a copper vase is all that is wrong in the so-called Kaaba and Mecca and the fact that it is a footprint idol in the first place doesn\'t seem to bother you one bit. Brother, isn\'t it about time that you refocus?
Thank you for feeling sorry for me )
I personally, for a few years now, adhere to Jerusalem as being the location of Bakka and more specifically, I give the location of the Dome of the Rock as being the Temple/Sanctuary with the Maqam being the place where Abraham was about to sacrifice his son.
I merely shared the info about the Kaaba since I thought it was interesting that the problem with the Maqam (footprints for the Sunnis/Shia) has been noticed before and they tried to conform to the description of the Maqam being inside the Temple/Sanctuary by expanding its size.
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Well I have to say that the photos presented by Ayman was a good laugh D, what a bunch of evidences whatever
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Peace,
Thank you Ayman for that wonderful tour.
I would venture to guess "smiley face" and Ahmad actually shed a tear or two and a few takbirs upon seeing their gods so closley and vividly.
Peace
sounds like you are talking about me, oh yeh my name is up there
so I wonder what are you trying to say?
that I cried when i saw god in there?
lol,
the statement alone confirms your ignorance regarding the Quran which said Allah can't be seen, unless the above was a go at humour, if yes then hold on
it's coming
it's coming
hahahahahahahah
happy now?
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ayman wrote
What is noticeable on this thread is that the people such as Mr. Smiley Face -) and Ahmed who obstinately defend their beloved objects in so-called Mecca have really not presented anything to prove the credibility of those very objects that they are defendingafter manipulating and lying about the quran...abusing the lexicons...selectively quoting from arab history...making what roman christians and others say the basis of ur faith....
...u reckon this ur only route to escape the obvious embarrassment! -)
but when u are done embarrassing urself further...try owning up what u claim....ur forefathers failed to manipulate the quran...keep trying for their sake! -)
a proof of ur disbelief is in the comments/observations section...and this thread is full of it! -)
..and dont run away...nor run in circles! -)
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zelkoj67 wrote
I would venture to guess "smiley face" and Ahmad actually shed a tear or two and a few takbirs upon seeing their gods so closley and vividly.disbelievers often suffer the illusion that they are funny....u are not a new species! -)
..u have been mentioned in the quran quite often! -)
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tanveer wrote
"Fight in the sabeel of God against those who fight you" is the same as "fight them not at the sabeel of God unless they fight you in it", and "fight them not at masjid alharam unless they fight you in it" is the same as "fight in masjid alharam
against those who fight you".u can read...right?
understand
understand about sabeel of god
verses say "fight in the sabeel of god the ones who fight u"
"and kill them where u catch them"
it begins with a command to fight those who fight u and slay them where u can find them!
now understand about almasjidalharam
and do not fight them by almasjid alharam unless they fight u in it!
..the command is to not fight them if they happen to be by almasjid alharam..unless they fight u in it!
now suppose a group of believers and a group of disbelievers who manipulate quran, who are at war with each other!
now the command to the believers is to catch and slay the kafirz where they are found...(cuz they are alreay at war)...
but if the kafirz happens to be by almasjid alharam..then do not slay him (even though u are at war)....unless he fights u in it! -)
does this help?
now then...about sex with spouse and almasjid alharam? -)
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disbelievers often suffer the illusion that they are funny....u are not a new species! -)
..u have been mentioned in the quran quite often! -)
I guess i must of nailed it when I said...
smiley face" and Ahmad actually shed a tear or two and a few takbirs upon seeing their gods so closley and vividly.
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tanveer wrote
"Fight in the sabeel of God against those who fight you" is the same as "fight them not at the sabeel of God unless they fight you in it", and "fight them not at masjid alharam unless they fight you in it" is the same as "fight in masjid alharam against those who fight you".u can read...right?
understand
understand about sabeel of god
the verses say "fight in the sabeel of god allatheena yuqatiloonakum..fight the ones who fight u"
..."and kill them where u catch them"
it begins with a command to fight those who fight u and slay them where u can find them!
now understand about almasjidalharam
and do not fight them by almasjid alharam unless they fight u in it!
..the command is to not fight them if they happen to be by almasjid alharam..unless they fight u in it!
now suppose a group of believers and a group of disbelievers who manipulate quran, who are at war with each other!
now the command to the believers is to catch and slay the kafirz where they are found...cuz they are alreay at war...
but if the kafir happens to be by almasjid alharam..then do not slay him ..even though u are at war)....unless he fights u in it! -)
does this help?
now then...about sex with spouse and almasjid alharam? -)
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I guess i must of nailed it when I said...
smiley face" and Ahmad actually shed a tear or two and a few takbirs upon seeing their gods so closley and vividly.
you guessed nothing beacuse you nailed nothing
you were trying to be funny with a silly comment and abused two in it in addition you made us worship many gods
in a way you have insulted us
if your statement was about One God, and removed the word "See" from it, i might have accepted it
on the other hand you proved your ignorance, well done
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Peace all,
Nice site to scan words in Qur?an; input AL-MASJID AL-HARAM
http//www.islamicity.com/ps/default.asp?inc=PhoneticSearch.asp
Clearly a physical place?
834 But what plea have they that Allah should not punish them, when they keep out (men) from the sacred Mosque - and they are not its guardians? No men can be its guardians except the righteous; but most of them do not understand.
How can they keep your mind from it?
97 How can there be a league, before Allah and His Messenger, with the Pagans, except those with whom ye made a treaty near the sacred Mosque? As long as these stand true to you, stand ye true to them for Allah doth love the righteous.
How did they make a treaty near it?
919 Do ye make the giving of drink to pilgrims, or the maintenance of the Sacred Mosque, equal to (the pious service of) those who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and strive with might and main in the cause of Allah. They are not comparable in the sight of Allah. and Allah guides not those who do wrong.
How did the pagans maintain it?
928 O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque. And if ye fear poverty, soon will Allah enrich you, if He wills, out of His bounty, for Allah is All-knowing, All-wise.
How did pagans approach it before?
Every verse alludes to a physical place even of fighting in it; 2217 and 2191.
As tg stated earlier; during sex how are you focused on it 24x7; impossibility!
Some are too hung up on the physics of direction and instead of addressing the contradiction they rewrite the Qur?an.
At Fermi Labs they smash proton/anti-proton beams to generate neutrinos which travel through the earth?s crust from IL to an old salt mine in Minnesota to hit a lead target.
Likewise, as you pray from ?wherever? you are; bowing your head is like the neutrino beam hitting Kaaba through buildings or anything including the earth?s crust.
Also consider the verse below; start anywhere; face direction of Kaaba; don?t turn your head; move forward and you?ll hit Kaaba...
2149 From whencesoever Thou startest forth, turn Thy face in the direction of the sacred Mosque; that is indeed the truth from the Lord. And Allah is not unmindful of what ye do.
Intent is what matters; idolization of rocks is wrong; separate issue which people need to be educated.
Lastly, a hypocrite is recognized by many things including pretending to be a Muslim but refusing to turn toward; fleeing in times of war; not contributing to the cause; etc?
Peace
