"Free Will" is just an illusion
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Peace,
There used to be a time when i thought free will was real. However if it were it would violate causality which would be nonsense. Now it doesnt matter how complex and comlicated it may become and even if we say that the soul is not part of the brain but some finite quantum network in another dimension which is in inturn part of another finite network and so on, still it would be causally ongoing, hence making it determinable for the Infinite Being i.e. GOD and if anything is determinable, it aint real free will. The very term "free will" only exists since other people dont yet have the means to determine what one would do as there are so many possibilities and so many factors. And as for now theres no proof our soul is part of a quantum network which our brain connects to, only that the soul is formed by the neural connections themselves. Hence real free will doesnt and caannot exist either ways. GOD Bless! -
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Brother ! khizer salam,,,
There sure is a free will....if there was none, why we should be penalised or rewarded for making certain choices?JK- Neuroscientist have found out that when a person commits crimes, no matter what, it is already determined by his lymbic system in the brain. Yet the same neurologists would never argue with a judge that such a person should not be put to prison. The reason, "alround causality". In the same way as the neuronic system caused the person to commit a crime, the neuronic system of the judge caused him to judge the criminal and so it goes because the system has learned scientifically that the punishment would better the other with high probability or better society as a whole which in return causes good to him.
i have been thinking about this paradox for quite some time . May be i shall try and explain it some day.
peace
siki
JK- Well ive explained quite a bit above and if you have something to add, your most welcome. GOD Bless!
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Science is good .. but there is plenty of science out there, waiting to be discovered.
So ,,that person you are talking about, would always commit crimes?
Or do you think that he can stop to commit crimes?
Now you would say that when he does not commit a crime , his limbic system has changed/evolved.
Who has changed his limbic system ?Bro !if you can understand this, you have solved the puzzle. this is what this game is all about, that is why we are here. developing the ability to change the inherited (pre programmed for survival) limbic system would determin our position on the GRID.
We all do change the limbic system in our life time, but end up changing it negatively to satisfy the animistic instinct,but when we make an effort to change it in accordance with the divine instructions/will, we may become useful to the creator ,and hence might get another positive lease .
peace
sikandar -
Salam.
Brother, of course we have free will and there are number of movies that prove that. Let me give you an example.
I wake up and get up. I go to the kitchen where i eat my breakfast. I finish it and return to the bedroom where i turn on the computer and write this message. Then i take the hammer and smash the computer to pieces. Then i go outside and walk to Baghdad on foot.
See?
See proofs?
I began all sentences with the word I. I do this, i do that and so on, proving that i decided to do something or not do. God doesn't need me awake or asleep. God doesn't need anything. God doesn't need me at the computer. God did not tell me to smash the computer or to buy the hammer.So, the question now is, who or what told me or informed me or forced me or suggested that i should eat, that i should write on my pc or that i should walk to Baghdad when i can skip breakfast, not write and just take a plane to Maldives and stand on the sun until i get some tan.
See my point?
I think that free will exists, i believe that i have free will and i have seen even bigger proofs of free will. I often wonder why didn't The God Almighty allow me to enter the States? Then i get the answer But if i was to enter USA, God would have to cut the free will of that officer who exercised his own free will. The officer arrested me and therefore i couldn't enter the country.
The only way i could now enter USA, if The Exalted Almighty God, The Most Powerful removes the free will of every police officer, HomeLand Security officer, politician and other person who has the authority to arrest me.
I make many decisions during one day, one single 24-hour long day. Since we know that The God Most Powerful doesn't need me, i can do whatever i want, right? Whatever I want. I can decide to stay in bed until i was 75 years old. God could make me come out of the bed with a flood, fire, earthquake, hunger, stench, war, disease or just like this"Be Gone!" and i would disappear.
God can do anything, right?
Right.
See, God gave me free will to talk. If God so wanted, He could've made me stop talking. God truly can do anything and everything HE wants.Peace.
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PEace All
check out the movie bro Tay provided for us on this link
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13517.0
it might answer some of these questions. plus its amazing
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Peace bro "siki",
Science is good .. but there is plenty of science out there, waiting to be discovered.
JK- I agree theres plenty to be discovered USING science.
So ,,that person you are talking about, would always commit crimes?
JK- Not necessarily.
Or do you think that he can stop to commit crimes?
JK- Ofcourse this is possible.
Now you would say that when he does not commit a crime , his limbic system has changed/evolved.
Who has changed his limbic system ?JK- Yes indeed the system can be adjusted though if a person has the intense tendency for crimes it is all the more diffcult and all the more improbable that the system will change. Who will change it? The particles on the micro level which are making it up which are finally associated with the quantum network and hence GOD. The point is it all works causally and it doesnt matter whether this may extend to infinity.
Bro !if you can understand this, you have solved the puzzle. this is what this game is all about, that is why we are here. developing the ability to change the inherited (pre programmed for survival) limbic system would determin our position on the GRID.
JK- Yep the lymic system can change itself on the mirco level and that is what we term as "we can change ourselves" on the macro level. However this often requires the aid of other people like psychiatrists or other professional therapists who i believe GOD appointed them all in their place.
We all do change the limbic system in our life time, but end up changing it negatively to satisfy the animistic instinct,but when we make an effort to change it in accordance with the divine instructions/will, we may become useful to the creator ,and hence might get another positive lease .
peace
sikandarJK- Absolutely if the lymbic system on the micro level, hance we on the macro level, agrees with GOD's laws everything is fine. Exactly my point. GOD Bless!
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Peace "Alen",
Salam.
Brother, of course we have free will and there are number of movies that prove that. Let me give you an example.
I wake up and get up. I go to the kitchen where i eat my breakfast. I finish it and return to the bedroom where i turn on the computer and write this message. Then i take the hammer and smash the computer to pieces. Then i go outside and walk to Baghdad on foot.
See?
See proofs?
I began all sentences with the word I. I do this, i do that and so on, proving that i decided to do something or not do. God doesn't need me awake or asleep. God doesn't need anything. God doesn't need me at the computer. God did not tell me to smash the computer or to buy the hammer.So, the question now is, who or what told me or informed me or forced me or suggested that i should eat, that i should write on my pc or that i should walk to Baghdad when i can skip breakfast, not write and just take a plane to Maldives and stand on the sun until i get some tan.
See my point?
JK- I see your point but the problem is you did all this because of your lymbic system where the micro particles came into a certain point due to an infinite number of causal rleations between the quantum particles. I agree GOD didnt want you to do everything but He knew that you would. How is it logically possible that GOD knows what your gonna do, without there being a causal relation? He knows it all because He an calculate which particle on the quantum level is gonna go where and the actions you carry out on the maccro level are a result of the combination of those. The micro particles starting from infinity ultimately "Go their way" and GOD allows it. This is what we mean when we talk about destiny.
I think that free will exists, i believe that i have free will and i have seen even bigger proofs of free will. I often wonder why didn't The God Almighty allow me to enter the States? Then i get the answer But if i was to enter USA, God would have to cut the free will of that officer who exercised his own free will. The officer arrested me and therefore i couldn't enter the country.
JK- As i said GOD is not cutting or intervening into the particles. They are running freely but theyr running their way. I also believe that this is the case with all neural networks, the more complex, the more chaotic the outcomes but yet causal and determinable.
The only way i could now enter USA, if The Exalted Almighty God, The Most Powerful removes the free will of every police officer, HomeLand Security officer, politician and other person who has the authority to arrest me.
JK- The officer's are stopping you because that is where the particles of their lymbic system are going. GOD is not intervening but allowing it and the particles are taking only those paths which are within GOD's defined laws of nature. It is your destiny until now that you shoudnt enter the US. In other words GOD doesnt want to lead you there right now but you might be there sometime in the future.
I make many decisions during one day, one single 24-hour long day. Since we know that The God Most Powerful doesn't need me, i can do whatever i want, right? Whatever I want. I can decide to stay in bed until i was 75 years old. God could make me come out of the bed with a flood, fire, earthquake, hunger, stench, war, disease or just like this"Be Gone!" and i would disappear.
God can do anything, right?
Right.
See, God gave me free will to talk. If God so wanted, He could've made me stop talking. God truly can do anything and everything HE wants.Peace.
JK- As i said GOD doesnt intervene like that. If your lymbic system is currently in a condition which excites you to talk, walk, get out of bed, etc youll do those things. GOD Bless!
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Peace sister "BOOST",
PEace All
check out the movie bro Tay provided for us on this link
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13517.0
it might answer some of these questions. plus its amazing
JK- Ive seen that movie and it doesnt talk about real free will. Yes positive thinking enables one to do and accomplish alot but ultimately whether youll think positively or not is determined by the postions and locations of quantum particles which build up your system. Thts my point. GOD Bless!
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Peace "phoenix",
peace JK,
can you explain what you said in the original post in simpler terms?
I know you are saying that free will doesn't really exist, but I don't understand why.JK- Ultimately whatever you think or do is determined by the postions and locations of quantum particles which build up your system. Thts my point. In order for freewill to be real we have to have entire nondeterminable RANDOM particles meaing whos direction can never be determined because they move themslves magically. But this violates causality and doesnt make any sense. There is no real random event because at the micro level one particle has mbeen moving the other since ever and it is going on. We talk about random because relative to us something may not be determinable since we lack the means to do so currently. Eg flipping a coin. Ofcourse head or tails depends on the amount of forces applied, in which direction, environmental particle pressure and many other but causal factors. If we could calculate all of them wed know exactly whether the coin would land on heads or tails. GOD Bless!
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Peace "phoenix",
peace JK, I don't see how that violates free-will.
JK- "Freewill" is just a term like "random". Neither of the two exist in a true sense. They are terms used because something might yet be indeterminable from our perspective. Thts my point. GOD Bless!
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Peace all,
I think we should use the word free-choice instead of free-will. There is no free-will but there is a free-choice. Big difference. Think about it ! I can make a choice based on my free-choice and then the action is manifested through God's will (action potential, nerve impulses, muscle contraction etc.), but I always have the choice of making that initial choice ! God can always give me a stroke or get me in an accident and prevent that free-choice from getting manifested.
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Peace "phoenix",
let's use an example,
I am standing at a fork in the road. One path leads to a normal village, and the other to Narnia.
You are saying that I don't have a choice? can't I CHOOSE to go to Narnia and live with talking animals?JK- Man you didnt understand. Ofcourse you can "choose" in an illsuionary sense. But the very "you" your talking about is actually the neural network which made this decision because the currents made by chemical reactions were in a particular location/energy level etc at that time which is what formed your thought in the first place and then made the choice which you say is yours. Got it? GOD Bless!
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Peace bro "tanveer",
Peace all,
I think we should use the word free-choice instead of free-will. There is no free-will but there is a free-choice. Big difference. Think about it ! I can make a choice based on my free-choice and then the action is manifested through God's will (action potential, nerve impulses, muscle contraction etc.), but I always have the choice of making that initial choice ! God can always give me a stroke or get me in an accident and prevent that free-choice from getting manifested.
JK- I guess thts the same thing. Your thoughts also occur because of the neural and/or quantum reactions going on in your body which last but not least are causal and hence a higher intelligence could tell in advance the choice you were to make. GOD who is the Ultimate intelligence therefore knows in advance what choice wer gonna make. Even today neuro scientists can tell what choices people are gonna make in the lab with a certain probability. They maybe right only like 60%-70% because of the many factors associated with choice but the conclusion is that the choices we make are all causally related and theres no magic behind it. GOD Bless!
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Peace bro Khizar,
JK- I guess thts the same thing. Your thoughts also occur because of the neural and/or quantum reactions going on in your body which last but not least are causal and hence a higher intelligence could tell in advance the choice you were to make. GOD who is the Ultimate intelligence therefore knows in advance what choice wer gonna make. Even today neuro scientists can tell what choices people are gonna make in the lab with a certain probability. They maybe right only like 60%-70% because of the many factors associated with choice but the conclusion is that the choices we make are all causally related and theres no magic behind it. GOD Bless!
I don't think that the choice is initiated by the brain neurons. I think that the choice is made by the soul which is a distinct entity made of some kind of energy and is separate from the physical body. A crude analogy is that of a car being driven by a driver the soul is the driver, the brain is the steering wheel and the body is the rest of the car. The God knows what we are going to do because He has no time restraints and can see the past, present and future at the same time.