"Free Will" is just an illusion
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Peace "almarh0m",
Peace
So GOD= The Sum Total of The Universe+what's in IT and Outside of It ? Is it fair to Conclude that, Based on this we can say that GOD IS The Only REALITY and all The Rests are Illusions ?
Cheers
JK- Depends on how you define illusion. Id rather say wer all part of GOD and well all ultimately return to Him. GOD Bless!
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Peace "yfn123",
Peace,
Please elaborate on "part of GOD" thing.
Anwar Azim
JK. I wonder whts their to elaborate. Everyting that exists is part of GOD on a finite level i.e. the sun, moon, stars, we, planets etc are all part of GOD since they were all created by Him and through His essence which according to the Quran is Light i.e. em waves i.e. quantum particles which are also still spread in their essential form all over the universe. Wheres the prob? GOD Bless!
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Some parts of GOD really have very evil intentions...
Anwar Azim
Peace "yfn123",
JK. I wonder whts their to elaborate. Everyting that exists is part of GOD on a finite level i.e. the sun, moon, stars, we, planets etc are all part of GOD since they were all created by Him and through His essence which according to the Quran is Light i.e. em waves i.e. quantum particles which are also still spread in their essential form all over the universe. Wheres the prob? GOD Bless!
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Peace "yfn123",
Some parts of GOD really have very evil intentions...
Anwar Azim
JK- Evil is a part of causality. It happens but ultimately it will disappear. Thats why i dont believe hell is eternal in an absolute sense either. It is a process one passes through and then one is revived. So yes since we all issued from GOD's essence, were created by Him and many of us are evil this means that parts of GOD are evil in that way but that is not GOD since the combination of all to infinity is still good since that is what outweighs the evil. GOD Bless!
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Peace "almarh0m",
Peace JK
Shall I search for the Root of the Word Illusion as well then define It ? Come on Bro you know what is Real and what is an Illusion . )
Cheers
almarh0mJK- I know that they are relative. In ones dream the now real world maybe considered as illusion whilst the dream is real, and here its the other way around. Scientifically speaking this real consistently observable world is termed as the real world. GOD Bless!
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Peace bro Khizar,
Peace bro "tanveer",
JK- Ok this MAYBE the case IF AND ONLY IF the neural network is connected to a finite quantum network in a paralell universe which would then be the soul. But this is 1) Only a hypothesis which has yet to be proven 2) Even if true is ultimately causal no matter whether it tends to infinity or not.
JK- As i said this remains to be proven. But it is also possible that the neural network is the driver/soul and at the moment i think that is more likely because just look at our memories. They are not stored in some energy field in another universe but in the neural network right here in this universe. GOD could have allowed the memories to be stored in another universe if our soul were there but this is not the case. hus if one suffers brain damage all or part our memories may be lost. GOD Bless!
We should keep our minds open to the possibility that the hypothesis mentioned by me is possible. Also, the soul in addition to being an entity distinct from the body, could be formed of something other than the "quantum particles", which has not yet been discovered. Thus none of our memories will be lost even if the brain gets damaged because they will be stored in the "soul".
The God uses many allegories in al-qur'aan, for example God's hands are not like our hands. Similarly, when He says "light" of the heavens and earth, it is not the light that we know of, but He used a word closest to what the reality is, in our limited language and limited brain capacity to understand. By "light" He could have meant some other "stuff" which we cannot even comprehend, and which has nothing to do with any "quantum particles".
I think we should not keep pursuing allegories per 37, because it can also mislead us, especially when we do not have the perfect knowledge of everything. All we are doing is speculating when we are trying to figure out those allegories.
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We should keep our minds open to the possibility that the hypothesis mentioned by me is possible. Also, the soul in addition to being an entity distinct from the body, could be formed of something other than the "quantum particles", which has not yet been discovered. Thus none of our memories will be lost even if the brain gets damaged because they will be stored in the "soul".
Peace Tanveer,
There is already a scientific explanation for this, it is called the Quantum Field. This is where all happenings in the Universe will leave a resonance. Please read the article
Article Scientific Explanation Afterlife
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Peace bro "tanveer",
Peace bro Khizar,
We should keep our minds open to the possibility that the hypothesis mentioned by me is possible. Also, the soul in addition to being an entity distinct from the body, could be formed of something other than the "quantum particles", which has not yet been discovered. Thus none of our memories will be lost even if the brain gets damaged because they will be stored in the "soul".
JK- The problem is if this is the case why do our memories get lost int eh first place? Why when we hae a car accident or serious brain damage we can suffer from a permanent memory loss never to return? Why is it that people when certain parts of their brain are damaged are unable to distinguish between right and wrong? Wldnt make sense if there were a soul somewhere else which had memories unless we speculate that all sorage here is shifted to the other network in another dimnsion which is restricted as soon as certain areas of the brain are hurt but that would make the world sort of a virtual reality which doesnt make sense because there is already complexity down to the infinitesimal meaning every particle causing another. There is no magic and the last particles are the auatum particles and GOD says Himself Hes the LIGHT of the heavens and the earth. Thus this is not a virtua reality since the very quantum particles are right here unless the Quran is wrong and superstition is right.
The God uses many allegories in al-qur'aan, for example God's hands are not like our hands. Similarly, when He says "light" of the heavens and earth, it is not the light that we know of, but He used a word closest to what the reality is, in our limited language and limited brain capacity to understand. By "light" He could have meant some other "stuff" which we cannot even comprehend, and which has nothing to do with any "quantum particles".
JK- Bro here it is in accordance with science. Why turn that which goes with reasonable science into an alegory in order to beleive in superstition whch doesnt make any sense at all?
I think we should not keep pursuing allegories per 37, because it can also mislead us, especially when we do not have the perfect knowledge of everything. All we are doing is speculating when we are trying to figure out those allegories.
JK- 37 means IMO that we shopuldnt pursue what we do not understand. I believe ive understood it when GOD said Hes the Light of the heavens and the earth just as 2130 has now been understood. The same 37 applied for people who didnt understand 2130 before. Doesnt mean that since we now understand it, we shouldnt say that its so. GOD Bless!
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Peace bro Sikandar,
the real question is, or should be weather God truly knows (100%)what a soul is likely to do? if god knows (for sure) what a soul would do, why has he allowed us to go through this exercise? i think we need to carry out some work on those verses where God is making such assertions .
God is All Knowing and He does truly know what a soul will do. He allows us to go through this exercise not for His sake but to distinguish ourselves and prove ourselves to our fellow creation and get evidence for the sake of fellow creation so that on the Last Day the fellow creation will not consider someone's reward/punishment to be unfair. Please see the following link for an excellent explanation by Wakas
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=7368.msg6913#msg6913
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Peace bro Khizar,
JK- The problem is if this is the case why do our memories get lost int eh first place? Why when we hae a car accident or serious brain damage we can suffer from a permanent memory loss never to return? Why is it that people when certain parts of their brain are damaged are unable to distinguish between right and wrong? Wldnt make sense if there were a soul somewhere else which had memories unless we speculate that all sorage here is shifted to the other network in another dimnsion which is restricted as soon as certain areas of the brain are hurt but that would make the world sort of a virtual reality which doesnt make sense because there is already complexity down to the infinitesimal meaning every particle causing another. There is no magic and the last particles are the auatum particles and GOD says Himself Hes the LIGHT of the heavens and the earth. Thus this is not a virtua reality since the very quantum particles are right here unless the Quran is wrong and superstition is right.
No memories are actually lost. All memories are stored in the soul which is a distinct entity from the neurons or the quantum particles; the access to certain memories (for example from our previous life in the garden when we all witnessed The God - 7172) is restricted only in this life for the purpose of the test or if the neurons get damaged, and this access will be given again in the life hereafter when we will remember everything once again. This does not make this life a virtual reality.
JK- Bro here it is in accordance with science. Why turn that which goes with reasonable science into an alegory in order to beleive in superstition whch doesnt make any sense at all?
I am not turning science into allegory but saying that science still has not discovered many laws of nature and thus lot of phenomenon are still unknown. We do not have perfect knowledge of everything as your assertions seem to be implying. What if the quantum particles only explain the matter and energy components of the universe and there could be another as yet undiscovered component in addition to matter and energy ? Why be adamant that matter and energy is all there is ?
I believe ive understood it when GOD said Hes the Light of the heavens and the earth just as 2130 has now been understood. The same 37 applied for people who didnt understand 2130 before. Doesnt mean that since we now understand it, we shouldnt say that its so.
Your understanding is apparently creating a contradiction with the existence of free choice which is already proven through qur'aanic teachings; the only logical conclusion will be that your understanding is faulty, because free choice does exist. At the time of discovery of the Newtonian laws people thought that they had understood everything about certain things and they were later proven wrong with the discovery of relativity and quantum mechanics. One can never say with absolute certainty that one has perfectly understood something like the nature of The God or the nature of the soul. It is plausible that we might never understand certain phenomenon until the life hereafter.
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Peace bro "tanveer",
Peace bro Khizar,
No memories are actually lost. All memories are stored in the soul which is a distinct entity from the neurons or the quantum particles; the access to certain memories (for example from our previous life in the garden when we all witnessed The God - 7172) is restricted only in this life for the purpose of the test or if the neurons get damaged, and this access will be given again in the life hereafter when we will remember everything once again. This does not make this life a virtual reality.
JK- Bro im sorry to say but this is superstition. The soul existing of some other hypotheitical substance does not make sense. It could be quantum particles, that i accept as bro Arnold has mentioned but even that lacks scientific evidence till today. The memories have not been observed to be stored somewhere else apart from the neural network and if one day we would find such a thing then the most likely would be that theyd be saved in the quntum field like bro Arnold says, IMO.
I am not turning science into allegory but saying that science still has not discovered many laws of nature and thus lot of phenomenon are still unknown. We do not have perfect knowledge of everything as your assertions seem to be implying. What if the quantum particles only explain the matter and energy components of the universe and there could be another as yet undiscovered component in addition to matter and energy ? Why be adamant that matter and energy is all there is ?
JK- What if? maybe etc are all not scientific arguments. We have to work with what we have and the astonishing thing is what we know alread i.e. quantum particles i.e. light is what GOD says Hes the Light of the heavens and the earth. So why speculate on another essence when this ones already confirmed by the Quran? Why interpret that verse as an allegory which is the most likely to be compatible with science? It doesnt make any sense to me.
Your understanding is apparently creating a contradiction with the existence of free choice which is already proven through qur'aanic teachings; the only logical conclusion will be that your understanding is faulty, because free choice does exist. At the time of discovery of the Newtonian laws people thought that they had understood everything about certain things and they were later proven wrong with the discovery of relativity and quantum mechanics. One can never say with absolute certainty that one has perfectly understood something like the nature of The God or the nature of the soul. It is plausible that we might never understand certain phenomenon until the life hereafter.
JK- First of all the soul should be a finite part so one can ultimately undertsnad that. As for understanding GOD compeltely, no itll never be possible but that doesnt mean one cannot know the essence of GOD which Hes already mentioned in the Quran.
Now for free choice. Free choice exists relative to us i.e. we think that we have free will. That is correct and thats why i said it is an illusion. However relative to GOD we dont have any free will as you yourself showed in your above post saying that GOD knows eveything a soul would do. How can GOD logically get to know what a soul would do? By calculating which path the combined particles making up the soul would take in the course of time. But this means that the path is already tending into a certain direction and it has to if it's not to violate causality. Also ive been thinking that evil is only a rlelative thing and it must be of GOD's plan to serve a greater purpose. Think of a cell which needs to commit suicide in order for their to be spaces between your fingers. Maybe we are just beings of another giant being which in turn is that of another and so on. In this way everything has a purpose and we have to pass through certain processes. True absolute evil can only be if GOD somewhow shot out particles at random without any calculation and without Himself knowing the course(if you know the path of particles it aint random anymore), which goes against the statement in the Quran which says that Hes made everything for a purpose and caculated it all. GOD Bless! -
Peace bro Sikandar,
God is All Knowing and He does truly know what a soul will do. He allows us to go through this exercise not for His sake but to distinguish ourselves and prove ourselves to our fellow creation and get evidence for the sake of fellow creation so that on the Last Day the fellow creation will not consider someone's reward/punishment to be unfair. Please see the following link for an excellent explanation by Wakas
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=7368.msg6913#msg6913
Dear tanveer
Thanks for referring me to the thread, but brother i could not find an answer there(i guess i am more like Zen's friend)
rather i found verses which do indicate the opposite(i thought there was none)If you are wounded, then know that the other group is also wounded; and such are the situations, We rotate them between the people, so that God will know those who believe, and so He may take martyrs from you. God does not like the wicked.
This issue is more like , FOLLOW THE MESSENGER ISSUE, which most of the people misunderstood, and created the hadith and sunnah, ( now try telling these Sunni guys). it was only after some hard work on the verses that we could understand and differentiate between "FOLLOWING THE MESSENGER OR MOHAMMAD"
let me say , that i have an EMPIRICAL GUT FEELING" ;D
" MOST LIKELY he knows or can predict 99.9999--infinnity but ,for that fraction, Almighty wants to be pleasantly surprised."
( how about you,and me being one of the volunteers to work on the correct understanding of the relevent verses)
peace
siki -
Peace Sikandar,
The translation you quoted is a mistranslation. It is not "know" in that verse and other similar verses but "distinguish"
3140 If you are wounded, then know that the other group is also wounded. And such are the days, We alternate them between the people, so that God will DISTINGUISH those who believe, and so He may make witnesses from among you; and God does not like the wicked.
Distinguish implies distinguishing among fellow creation for their sake, to prove to others and to bring evidence for fellow creation's sake whether one deserves one's recompense on the Last Day or not, and not because Allah does not know. Your gut feeling is wrong bro ! (see 2181, 126, 1670)
The God further clarifies that it can only be "distinguish" in that verse by saying "so He may make witnesses from among you", thus giving the reason for "distinguishing".
This has already been discussed on this forum in the past. You can use the search function for the relevant posts by typing "distinguish" and "God".
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Dear Tanveer
you may be right about DISTINGUSISH, but then i have some questionsIf we are made the way we are,
who so ever made us, why did he arrange quantum particles of Mr A as such, that he would make bad choice overall and hence would end up in hell. and opposite for Mr B?
what is the the fault of Mr A?
why should Mr A be punished for no fault of his , he has imperfectly arranged atoms, which reflects directly on the maker himself,
if that was so ,, why didn't he reject and annihilate those in final quality control check?
Do you think that creator is unjust , that he would burn some in hell , for his own fault?(incidentally due to same reason i also have a belief that HELL IS NOT ETERNAL).peace
sikandar