"Free Will" is just an illusion
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Peace "siki",
Dear Tanveer
you may be right about DISTINGUSISH, but then i have some questionsIf we are made the way we are,
who so ever made us, why did he arrange quantum particles of Mr A as such, that he would make bad choice overall and hence would end up in hell. and opposite for Mr B?
what is the the fault of Mr A?JK- I already gave an example. This is the same as cell A asking why it had to die whilst we on the macro level know that it was because otherwise the spaces between our fingers would notve been created. Its the natural process of evolution. We humans are part of it and there is proably another being at the macro level and then again another and another each sering a purpose for the next. This is also why its mentioned in the Quran that GOD creates everything for a purpose.
why should Mr A be punished for no fault of his , he has imperfectly arranged atoms, which reflects directly on the maker himself,
if that was so ,, why didn't he reject and annihilate those in final quality control check?JK- By the same argument atheists shouldnt punish criminals like murderers etc because they did those because of natural processes in their brains. Yet nobody makes such an argument since 1) a punishment is a corrective measure 2) the brains of the rational thinking people automatically recognizes this.
Do you think that creator is unjust , that he would burn some in hell , for his own fault?(incidentally due to same reason i also have a belief that HELL IS NOT ETERNAL).
JK- As i said punishment is a natural process and even atheists would ounish murderers and other crimes. Also "Justice" is an auto process which is created in the brain due to rational thought. Your very claim of this is natural and if you think about it rationally it would ultimately vanish GW. GOD Bless!
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Peace Sikandar,
The choice made by a particular person is not the result of the way one's quantum particles are arranged but is a free choice made irrespective of the arrangement of the quantum particles. The choice is made by the soul which is a distinct and separate entity from the physical body and no one knows its exact nature.
I think the soul may be outside the confines of the quantum particles or even if it is within the confines, some properties of the quantum particles giving them free choice are still not understood properly. For example as shown by quantum physics, two particles have been proved to communicate instantly even when they are billion light years away at the two opposite edges of the universe, which is a communication faster than speed of light, how does that happen ?
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Dear khizer
Bro ! Tanveer is probably nearer to reality about memory storage,
soul is still an unexplored frontier, can you describe in atoms what windows is ? your p-4 is just a piece of junk , if not loaded with an operating system.
yes your body does aid in working of the soul in this dimension but please first figure out soul in material terms.
About memory ,,,
I think RAM is in the brain, but hard disk could be in another dimension where we connect at night , when we sleep and down load the data.
6-60 He is the One who puts you to death during the night, and knows even the smallest of your actions during the day. He resurrects you every morning, until your life span is fulfilled, then to Him is your ultimate return. He will then inform you of everything you had done
peace
siki -
Peace bro "tanveer",
Peace Sikandar,
The choice made by a particular person is not the result of the way one's quantum particles are arranged but is a free choice made irrespective of the arrangement of the quantum particles. The choice is made by the soul which is a distinct and separate entity from the physical body and no one knows its exact nature.
JK- You keep repeating this whilst theres ZERO EVIDENCE that the soul is made of an essence which is other than quantum particles. But lets say for a moment it is. Ok what then? Then the soul would act in accordance with the position and movement of those particles which it is made of which would still be causal and going its way. Doesnt solve the problem of free will existing.
I think the soul may be outside the confines of the quantum particles or even if it is within the confines, some properties of the quantum particles giving them free choice are still not understood properly. For example as shown by quantum physics, two particles have been proved to communicate instantly even when they are billion light years away at the two opposite edges of the universe, which is a communication faster than speed of light, how does that happen ?
JK- Ive known that quantum particles do communicate and are intelligent by themselves but not over these far distances. Could you provide the article plz? Moreover even if this is true it doesnt mean there is no cause since the quantum wave are a stream of particles upon particles by themselves. its not a magical substance like some people think. The speed may only be for the progression of the normal wave whilst another part may move much faster OR since it can take any dimension warp through a wormhole and go communicate with another quantum particle. Btw this also shows that the wuantum field is the ultimate thing and it is part of nature NOT supernatural. GOD is the Light of the heavens and the earth is proven once more. GOD Bless!
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Peace "siki",
JK- I already gave an example. This is the same as cell A asking why it had to die whilst we on the macro level know that it was because otherwise the spaces between our fingers would notve been created. Its the natural process of evolution. We humans are part of it and there is proably another being at the macro level and then again another and another each sering a purpose for the next. This is also why its mentioned in the Quran that GOD creates everything for a purpose.
JK- By the same argument atheists shouldnt punish criminals like murderers etc because they did those because of natural processes in their brains. Yet nobody makes such an argument since 1) a punishment is a corrective measure 2) the brains of the rational thinking people automatically recognizes this.
JK- As i said punishment is a natural process and even atheists would ounish murderers and other crimes. Also "Justice" is an auto process which is created in the brain due to rational thought. Your very claim of this is natural and if you think about it rationally it would ultimately vanish GW. GOD Bless!
peace khizer
i feel sorry for myself , because it does not fit in my dumb brain, -
sikandar -
Peace "siki",
Dear khizer
Bro ! Tanveer is probably nearer to reality about memory storage,
soul is still an unexplored frontier, can you describe in atoms what windows is ? your p-4 is just a piece of junk , if not loaded with an operating system.JK- I dont think a soul is much unexplored at all. Neuroscientists have very plausaible explanations of all the feelings, emotions and actions which humans commit. Regarding you windows its not only atoms but magnetic fields in which data is stored meaning magnetic field on the hd eg arranged in such an array that it causes the chips to lead the current onto the screen in such a way that a window shape is formed and all the things associated. Common now this is very basic science. Its all causal. Theres nothing magic there. Same way in the brain its not only hardware but ofcourse the electrictiy which passes thrugh it which results int eh movement together with the neural system and these two operate simulataneosly and causally. No magic. The path followed by the electric current is determined by natural law. It is not supernatural by any means.
yes your body does aid in working of the soul in this dimension but please first figure out soul in material terms.
About memory ,,,
I think RAM is in the brain, but hard disk could be in another dimension where we connect at night , when we sleep and down load the data.JK- My dear bro that is superstition. Your imagining something for which theres ZERO evidence both from sciecen and the Quran which due to its math code is highly probable of being correct. So all thts left is speculation of the highest order. Moreover this is highly unlikely since ive told you that if that were true then even those who have had a seriously damaged brain should not loose their memory but they do. many times with information never returning.
6-60 He is the One who puts you to death during the night, and knows even the smallest of your actions during the day. He resurrects you every morning, until your life span is fulfilled, then to Him is your ultimate return. He will then inform you of everything you had done
peace
sikiJK- This all most plaasubly refers to the natural proccesses of the brain and sicne GOD is controlling everything this automatically becomes part of it. GOD Bless!
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Viktor Frankl in his book ?Man?s Search for Meaning? describes Nazi death camps where all the familiar goals in life are snatched away and what remains is ?the last of human freedoms? ? the ability to ?choose one?s attitude in a given set of circumstances.?
Is choice our "attitude? (the start of all action) toward God?s will ? is that the test?
Universe was not created as infinite subatomic dominos set in motion with big bang.
23115 "Did ye then think that We had created you in jest, and that ye would not be brought back to Us (for account)?"
No contradiction, God transcends time-space with all events past, present, and future known in a single moment whereas "relative" to our experience it?s eternity.
People may also transcend time-space to recall future events as in deja-vu dreams or in near death experiences when their whole lives flash in an instant moment; both cited by numerous individuals...
Time and D?j? vu dreams
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13232.msg110315#msg110315A similar flash phenomenon may happen on Judgment Day?
1713 And We have attached to every person's neck his deeds, and We bring forth for him a record on the Day of Resurrection which he will find on display.
1714 Read your record! It is enough for you that you are aware of yourself today.
Peace
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Peace "Nun de Plune",
Regarding "Dejavu" please see
http//www.randi.org/encyclopedia/deja%20vu.html
http//www.yuksel.org/e/paranormal/#Several
Regarding NDEs please see
http//www.skepdic.com/nde.html
http//www.skeptic.com/reading_room/debates/afterlife.html(serach for the keyword "near death" to get to the real issue)
To put it simple NDEs are experiences which take place whilst the person is just regaining conscious and certain parts of the brain are activated but its not fully operational yet and is still detached from the body like in a dream. GOD Bless! -
Peace "Nun de Plune",
Regarding "Dejavu" please see
http//www.randi.org/encyclopedia/deja%20vu.htmld?j? vu A psychological phenomenon in which the subject experiences a situation that he or she feels strongly has been experienced before. It is believed that a unique combination of sensory inputs (hearing an unusually worded phrase along with perceiving a distinctive odor, for example) may bring about recall of a previous similar or identical combination, thus creating the illusion that the entire experience has been previously encountered.
Since this is a strange experience, it is often enthusiastically brought up as an example of a probable psi phenomenon, which it is not.
Peace jonny_k,
The above is INCORRECT ? I have described dreams to relatives in detail and remembered them because they were too odd; then a few weeks later (in my case) events happened EXACTLY as dreamed as stated below...
Time and D?j? vu dreams
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13232.msg110315#msg110315Here?s another one of many?
Dreamed seeing a parent of a kid on this youth soccer team I was coaching says to me Hey Nun watch! Then reaches in his pocket and shows me a band-less wristwatch.
Was thinking that was a ?dumb? dream until a week later at a tournament we were messing around shooting penalty kicks then same guy in the dream picks up the soccer ball and says to me ? Hey Nun watch!
He then reached in his pocket and showed me a band-less wristwatch! o
Jokingly he was saying watch me shoot this penalty kick?lol
http//www.jptimepieces.com/catalog/pics/lon10528.jpg
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Peace "Nun de Plume",
Lets say this was true. Ok if it was then it only means that GOD had planned it to happen so from the beginning so the particles were setup in a way at big bang that youll have a certain drem with a certain phrase and one week later youll see someone speak that exact phrase. Well yes i too saw a girl in train(in real life) who had apelike feautres and on her bag were written three things, two of which were semi covered so as to be made unreadable by the bags own strap whilst the word i could read was "Lucy" which was exactly where the strap didnt reach. These are amazing phenomena too great to be coincidences and i believe they aint but they all occur causally. There is no magic involved and most importantly it had nothing to do with revealing the future. So what you are saying is not something supernatural. But id still say that since the above is not related to any significant event in whcih GOD wants to make something clear to you i doubt whther it be true. Did you write the phrase down after you dreamt it. Maybe you said something similar in your dream whilst YOU THINK thts what youve said. Thts exactly the point of dejavus. If this future telling were really singificant and possible James Randi would have already given away his 1 Million dollar prize. GOD Bless! -
Dear tanveer
Thanks for referring me to the thread, but brother i could not find an answer there(i guess i am more like Zen's friend)
rather i found verses which do indicate the opposite(i thought there was none)If you are wounded, then know that the other group is also wounded; and such are the situations, We rotate them between the people, so that God will know those who believe, and so He may take martyrs from you. God does not like the wicked.
This issue is more like , FOLLOW THE MESSENGER ISSUE, which most of the people misunderstood, and created the hadith and sunnah, ( now try telling these Sunni guys). it was only after some hard work on the verses that we could understand and differentiate between "FOLLOWING THE MESSENGER OR MOHAMMAD"
let me say , that i have an EMPIRICAL GUT FEELING" ;D
" MOST LIKELY he knows or can predict 99.9999--infinnity but ,for that fraction, Almighty wants to be pleasantly surprised."
( how about you,and me being one of the volunteers to work on the correct understanding of the relevent verses)
peace
sikiJust kicking it up,,,, Any inputs from the wise ones?
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Peace "siki";
I beleive i <already answered tht it doesnt make sense tht GOD be surprised for even a fration as theres not even the slightest indication in any verse that GOD leaves a little gap in His knowledge deliberately to be surprised and even if tht were the case it wld still not violate causality as although now GOD wouldnt Himself know it, which is ridiculous for me to accept, yet the particles are moving their way so its still not real free will. Its just like GOD randomizing the process relative to Himself. This is just like i create a robot fit and create a neural program in whcih the robot can pick up random events and randomly "choose" his path. Yet it all depends on the course of the particles ultimately so again although now the robot has his own "will" its not free in an absolute sense. I hope you got it this time. GOD Bless! -
Peace "Nun de Plume",
Lets say this was true. Ok if it was then it only means that GOD had planned it to happen so from the beginning so the particles were setup in a way at big bang that youll have a certain drem with a certain phrase and one week later youll see someone speak that exact phrase.Peace jonny_k,
Not necessarily ? only God comprehends and knows how things really are.
There is no magic involved and most importantly it had nothing to do with revealing the future.
Magic is a term for things we don't understand; once we know then it's not magic anymore.
Had everything to do with revealing future for it happened as dreamed ? place, people, color, objects, sounds, and exact words spoken.
So what you are saying is not something supernatural. But id still say that since the above is not related to any significant event in whcih GOD wants to make something clear to you i doubt whther it be true.
It was supernatural and significant to me along with other signs like big bang and billions of varieties of life.
Did you write the phrase down after you dreamt it. Maybe you said something similar in your dream whilst YOU THINK thts what youve said.
Reread prior posts and links; we were all laughing after it happened because it was odd. lol
It?s a common phenomenon ? here are two replies on same subject from another forum?
Last night I had a wierd dream the Illinois Fighting Ilini lost by a three pointer to Ohio State by a white guy to break their undeafted season.... and it did happen! I told my cousins during the game and they said "Yea okay man, their winning by like 10." Man, I'm starting to believe in this time stuff...
finally, I'm not alone....
I tend to have the kind of dreams described above, a lot. It kind of freaks me out now and then, but recently I've come to think it's great. A few years ago in junior high was when I first realized it.The night before the first day of class I had a dream of a tall, white man with brown hair pacing back and forth in class, with his hands clasped behind his back, wearing a dark suit, white shirt and tie. I made nothing of it and thought it was just another dream. The next morning, I walk down the hall to class and sure enough there he is, same description as I stated above. I just stopped dead in my tracks. Turned out he was hired a month before as the new history teacher. A complete stranger.
Another dream was of this one dark-haired woman standing in my living room. I couldn't help thinking what a pretty dress she has on, it was pink & cream floral. Later that month my cousin from California drops by with his new fiance, whom I never knew about, and it's her, dressed exactly like in my dream.
How is it possible that we can dream of people we have never seen or events that have not happened yet? I've always been fascinated by this and when I tell someone I've had this dream, they don't take me seriously. I finally decided to start keeping a journal of some of my dreams with the date it occurred and as many details as possible. Only a few things have happened, like some conversations I've had word for word, which make me stop mid-sentence when I realize it or some random meeting with people I've never known before and some other stuff.
Is this a high power at work or sheer coincidence? Are they two different things? How random can it all possibly be and why does it happen? So many questions, so many interpretations...
very interesting reading, thank you.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_Experiment_with_Time
?Dunne's theory, elaborated from years of experiments into precognitive dreams and induced precognitive states, is that in reality all Time is eternally present ie that past, present and future are all happening at the same time. Human consciousness, however, experiences this simultaneity in linear form. Dunne posits that in the dreaming state this way of interpreting Time ceases to be as concrete as when we are awake. Thus we are capable of having what we call precognitive dreams as consciousness finds itself free to roam across past, present and future. From this Dunne posited that we existed on two levels ourselves, both inside and outside Time, thus suggesting the notion of Immortality contained in his later books 'The New Immortality' and 'Nothing Dies'.
The idea that Time (and, by extension, humanity) exists both simultaneously and linearly is a difficult one to grasp. One analogy is that of a book. At any given moment the entirety of a book exists in itself but at any given moment we can only read one page at a time, the other pages, while existing simultaneously with the one we are reading, remaining outside our consciousness. If we could somehow read every page of the book at once, or be able to experience the book in its entirety in a single moment then we would be closer to a real experience of it. Similarly in our lives we are conscious of only one moment in Time, the present, rather than our past, present and future together. The past is remembered but not physically experienced, the future remains unknown.
To achieve the simultaneous awareness of past, present and future would mean a complete reevaluation of the nature of our existence in terms of consciousness, Time and physical reality, something which Dunne argues is the logical conclusion of his work.?
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Dear khizer.
we both are refuting common understanding of an ayat each from quran, you are challenging , that there is no free will , where as God says in quran that there is, a free choice , i assert that God or his system can not predict 100%. and supposedly it is going against the common under standing of a Koranic verse which says that God knows every thing.i have been delibrating this robot model , for a couple of decades but still the paradox does not get solved.
1.if you as a creator is sure about certain robots who are not going to come up to required standard .you would annihilate them and pick up only the good ones,
2. what is the fault of faulty robots ? their bad design reflects upon the maker itself, why should they be punished ? and that also forever?
i think hell is not a punishment, or forever, it probably is a condition or environment which is mandatory to repair/evolve the substandard design(although the conditions or parameters there , are tougher than the first stage(where we are now)god says there is free will-- - he can predict 100%, who need the second cycle (hell) __yet wastes his and individuals time by letting him try .,,, does not make sense ???
there is no free will--- he knows who are good or bad _he has made the bad ones yet punishes those forever who are bad ,,,, whose fault is it any way ,did i asked to be created and that also as a bad one?---- ??? very strange
god says there is free will--if there is----then logically he can not predict with 100% accuracy >D ---we make bad choices ___hence fail to come up to the required standard--- deserve /need a tougher cycle to come up to the required level
last statement feels closer to logic and sense isn't it ?
the only thing we have to do is work upon the understanding of the verse which says that he can predict 100%
peace
siki -
Dear Nun de plume
Your dreams and their understanding by you is a gift from God. you must develop this ability and make some good use of it .when you are connected to the main frame at night and are down loading the info (what you did, thought , planned ,concieved, conspired during the day), the system can forecast a probable event , as it has input coming in from all over(other brains).Occassionally by Gods permission, a controller(Malika) encrypts this info, and up loads the probable/predicted event /info back into your processor during the REM phase of sleep. it is all up to you how do you decipher it(just my thought).
6-60 He is the One who puts you to death during the night, and knows even the smallest of your actions during the day. He resurrects you every morning, until your life span is fulfilled, then to Him is your ultimate return. He will then inform you of everything you had done
peace
siki -
Peace Sikandar, all,
god says there is free will-- - he can predict 100%, who need the second cycle (hell) __yet wastes his and individuals time by letting him try .,,, does not make sense
there is no free will--- he knows who are good or bad _he has made the bad ones yet punishes those forever who are bad ,,,, whose fault is it any way ,did i asked to be created and that also as a bad one?---- very strange
god says there is free will--if there is----then logically he can not predict with 100% accuracy ---we make bad choices ___hence fail to come up to the required standard--- deserve /need a tougher cycle to come up to the required level
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_Experiment_with_Time
?Dunne's theory, elaborated from years of experiments into precognitive dreams and induced precognitive states, is that in reality all Time is eternally present ie that past, present and future are all happening at the same time. Human consciousness, however, experiences this simultaneity in linear form. Dunne posits that in the dreaming state this way of interpreting Time ceases to be as concrete as when we are awake. Thus we are capable of having what we call precognitive dreams as consciousness finds itself free to roam across past, present and future. From this Dunne posited that we existed on two levels ourselves, both inside and outside Time, thus suggesting the notion of Immortality contained in his later books 'The New Immortality' and 'Nothing Dies'.
The idea that Time (and, by extension, humanity) exists both simultaneously and linearly is a difficult one to grasp. One analogy is that of a book. At any given moment the entirety of a book exists in itself but at any given moment we can only read one page at a time, the other pages, while existing simultaneously with the one we are reading, remaining outside our consciousness. If we could somehow read every page of the book at once, or be able to experience the book in its entirety in a single moment then we would be closer to a real experience of it. Similarly in our lives we are conscious of only one moment in Time, the present, rather than our past, present and future together. The past is remembered but not physically experienced, the future remains unknown.
To achieve the simultaneous awareness of past, present and future would mean a complete reevaluation of the nature of our existence in terms of consciousness, Time and physical reality, something which Dunne argues is the logical conclusion of his work.?
The God can see the past, present and future AT THE SAME TIME. That is how He knows with 100 % accuracy without forcing any of our choices.
He does not waste His and individuals time by letting him try; He is gathering evidence and distinguishing one from the other for the sake of the individual's fellow creation so that the fellow creation cannot say that the individual's recompense was unfair
3140 If you are wounded, then know that the other group is also wounded. And such are the days, We alternate them between the people, so that God will DISTINGUISH those who believe, and so He may make witnesses from among you; and God does not like the wicked.
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Peace "Nun de Plume",
But if what you claim be really true then dont you think James Randi whos investigating exactly these kinna phenomena for years would have found someone already? Supernatural and real magic are things which one can never understand how they happen. This has never been the case otherwise the 1 million dollar prize would most likely not be there anymore. GOD Bless! -
Peace "siki",
As i said even if GOD wld not know every choice wed make, the choice we make occurs because particles came into a certain position because ccertain other particles pushed them in acertain position who were again pushed by other one etc to infinity. This is called causality. The particles dont just change their direction without any force acting on it, thts my pt. So even if GOD doesnt know certain things wed do it doesnt mean we have real free will which is logically non existent. Now as for hell i agree with you and bro Edip has written an article on this tht hell aint eternal according to the Quran. You may have read tht before. GOD Bless!