Mohsannat? A new understanding(very imp)
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Dear all
Quran describes different kind of women with various titles, like Nisa, that means women just any woman in the world , it calls certain women as Mominat? they are All believing women. Then there are the women who are followers of previous scriptures and quran calls them so in 5-5, They do not fall in to the category of believing women, however quran allows to marry Mohsinnat out of such women. The next category is Mushrikat, these are the women who are neither believing nor the women of the followers of previous scripture but are off kafiroon,
The next is a category known as Ma malakat emnakum, the women belonging to this sub set of Nisa are your slave women (this I have and am explaining in the other thread)
So for every thing is clear and makes sense but then there is a certain subset of the Nisa which God calls by a term MOHSANAT? Here everything starts to go wrong, what is the precise definition for this subset?
No translator that I have come across , has translated this word in one fix meanings , he changes the translation of this word, depending upon what he thinks and understand in context to a certain meaning of an ayah.Listed are the different meanings, that different translators have alloted to the Arabic expression" MOHSANAT?
Married women, UN married women ,chaste women independent women, free believing women, engaged women. Protected women, self protected women, parent protected women, the women who flee their disbelieving husbands, , and there are many more descriptions.
All these descriptions are not accurate, and some contradict each other, the major contradiction being in 4-24 and 4-25,I shall request the readers to verify what I am going to explain (not with the translators perceived meaning but with the original Arabic text) and is very important as I would reassert that NO TRANSLATOR HAS USED A CONSISTENT UNDERSTSNDING IN ALL THE RELEVENT AYAS WHERE THE WORD MOHSANNAT IS USED Especially in 4-24 and 4-25 where it is 180 degrees opposite,
During my study, I got stuck at this place and reached a conclusion that there was got to be something wrong with everybody?s understanding of this word,
I took up this challenge to resolve the issue, and started digging , I checked every possible translation , yet no joy , I went deep into roots and checked all the possible occurrences of this word in quran the answer was still CONTRADICTION,CONTRADICTION. I tried to satisfy my self with flimsy explanations but then God?s assertion that IN IT YOU WILL NOT FIND ANY CONTRADICTION, THIS IS COMPLETE, PERFECT AND FULLY DETAILED. And hence kept working on
I worked for hours, days, nights, did every possible search for four days and yet I could not find a satisfying answer ANYWHERE
Finally I wrote the relevant verses together(Arabic) and started to ponder over them , after a lot of pondering and brain storming , there was finally a flash in my mind ,and I could comprehend what God meant by this term Mohsanat.
When I put my new understanding in all the ayahs, IT FIT EVERY WHERE perfectly and precisely with ONE CONSISTENT MEANING HAVIHNG NO CONTRADICTION ANY WHERELet's find out how?
;God starts stating the prohibited women from 4-22 and marry not the women whom your fathers married, except which has already passed, this surely is indecent and hateful, and it is an evil way,
Then he goes on listing more out of women( Nisa) who are prohibited and lists 13 more in 4-23,, he pauses and then continues to add another category to this list as MOHSANNAT in next ayah(4-24) with the exception of MA MALAKAT EMNAKUM, (Please read the Arabic here and compare)
This is the place where we have to be very careful and diligent in understanding what God means in these ayahs , Any mistake here(which almost every body has made) of translating it as married women , then right in the next verse a big contradiction is staring at our faceLet?s translate this SUBSET OF NISA ?Mohsannat? as every/any women who do not belong to the prohibited list, is chaste, eligible as HALLAL (permitted), and see what happens, lets see
"HARAM are the women,,,,so and so? (14 different,) and also(forbidden to have a sexual relation) the rest MOHSANNAT(HALLAL) until and unless you seek them in an honest commitment with your money (dowers, Ajoorhinna),some kind of detailed contract for which DOWER IS A NECESSITY
Here God keeps MA MALAKAT AN EXCEPTION, why? And if you ponder over it a little and take them to be your Ma Malkat as female slaves ,they stay Halal for you without fulfilling the above mentioned condition, which is seeking them through a legal bond resulting into paying of dower OJOORIHINNALet me reword it once again if you have not been able to comprehend,
,,,,,such and such women are prohibited(to have sexual contact) and ?.also the Mohsinnats(the allowed ones) with the exception of MME. Until you seek them(allowed ones) in some kind of regulated contract which require their dowers to be paid before establishing intimate , sexual relation ship
MME stay as an exception to this rule (of legal contract and paying dower.)and sexul contact is permittedIn next ayah 4-25 It is further elaborated by an advice that if you cannot afford to get a mohsinnat of the believing category into a wed lock then marry a young female(Fatayat) out of Ma malakat emnakum of believing category with the permission of their Masters(ehlehunna) by properly getting them into wed lock and by paying their dowers and this is better than having illicit sex and falling into evil, if these females become guilty of lewedness , their punishment is half than rest of the Mohsinnat category.
Some may ask a question here that these females are allowed to have a sexual relationship anyway , then why you are being asked to marry them? it is becasue They are Ma malakat emnahum of "SOMEBODY" not yours. and you need his masters permission. in another ayat Ehlehunna , the Masters are being advised that in any such situation it is asked of you to let go of these and The most Merciful would apriciate that. This all makes sense to me . I don?t know weather I have been able to make you understand, or not ? The post has become very lengthy and hence I would not like to continue with the rest of the verses mentioning Mohsinnat. The reader is requested to independently verify by using this expression in rest of the verses and find for himself/herself (I have done so) I assure you that every thing will fall in place, and would make sense ,(mohsinnat, ma malakat emnakum) , but if still there is some confusion ,we can thrash it out in either of the threads.
Wassallam
sikandar -
salaam siki
excellent effort. excellent effort. good that you raised the issue. yes. excellent, but perhaps you may want to consider the following;
a. to each, his own - Allah guides accordingly. insha-Allah. so, different person will have different understanding. say when mr a thinks x is an 22, while according to mr b, x is 75, and according to mr c, x is 3, when you mr siki say, x is simply a sexy woman, how do you suppose we take it? do you suppose we should make a judgement call on Allah, since it is Allah who teaches them, and you too? so, please be careful. to each his own. Allah teaches accordingly. Allah guides accordingly. And Allah misguides accordingly too. please consider to ponder upon it. please.
b. have you ever considered investigating the radical letters of the word 'muhsanat'? is it not from the radicals h-s-n. what do you get? is it not a feminine? please be careful, if we may ask of you. please be careful of Allah. please be careful of Allah. please...
peace
joe -
Peace Siki
Following is my analysis of Mohsanat from an earlier thread.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php topic=12172.msg91855;topicseen#msg91855
Peace All
The word MohSanat/MuhSinin occurs few times in the Quraan (I have listed the verses below) with regard to laws relating to women. This word is used in important law issues related to marriage, slandering and adultery also related punishments. Almost all translators translated this word as chaste, virtuous, free, independent, married etc. The problem is if you use any of these meanings in all verses there were many contradictions. You have to just read through the thread A refutation to Bro Yaseen - Polygamy is allowed in 4 23 to see the amount of confusion these 2 words were causing.
I try to determine below the meaning of this word without contradicting any verse . And most importantly you will notice the simple and intelligent way the Quraan uses this word to communicate its message.
AhSanat Mary is described as AhSanat in 2191 and 6612 to mean committed/dedicated to the temple or Gods service. Mary?s mother committed/devoted her child to the temple in 335 (Muharrar ~ freed from all worldly affairs and specially dedicated to Allah's service). If we take ?protected? as a meaning for AhSanat then it will mean protected by the temple in this context.
2191 Wal lati ahsanat farjaha_ fanafakna_ fiha_ mir ru_hina_ wa ja'alna_ha_ wab naha_ a_yatal lil'a_lamin
6612 Wa maryamab nata imra_nal latu ahsanat farjaha_ fanafahna_ fihi mir ru_hina_ wa sad daqat bikalima_ti rab iha_ wa kutubihi wa ka_nat minal qa_nitin
Mohsanat/Muhsanat means committed or devoted to something or someone. In the following verses it means committed through marriage. And if we use protected, MohSanat should mean protected by (the oath of) marriage.
4 24
Wal muhsana_tu minan nisa_'i illa_ ma_ malakat aima_nukum, kita_balla_hi 'alaikum, wa uhilla lakum ma_ wara_'a za_likum an tabtagu_ bi amwa_likum muhisinan gaira musa_fihin(a), famastamta'tum bihi minhunna fa a_tu_hunna uju_rahunna faridah(tan), wa la_ juna_ha 'alaikum fima_ tara_daitum bihi mim ba'dil faridah(ti), innalla_ha ka_na'aliman hakima_(n).
Also (prohibited to you are) women committed (committed to other men/married to other men) except those whom your right hands possess. Thus hath Allah ordained (prohibitions) against you except for these all others are lawful provided ye seek (them in marriage) with gifts from your property desiring commitment not lust. Seeing that ye derive benefit from them give them their dowers (at least) as prescribed; but if after a dower is prescribed ye agree mutually (to vary it) there is no blame on you and Allah is All-Knowing All-Wise.
In this verse minan nisa is used to convey no married woman is allowed either believing or from the people of the book.
4 25
Wa mal lam yastati' minkum taulan ay yankihal muhsana_til mu'mina_ti famimma_ malakat aima_nukum min fataya_tikumul mu'mina_t(i), walla_ a'lamu bi ima_nikum, ba'dukum mim ba'd(in), fankihu_hunna bi izni ahlihinna wa a_tu_hunna uju_rahunna bil ma'ru_fi muhsana_tin gaira musa_fiha_tiw wa la_ muttakhiza_ti akhda_n(in), fa iza_ uhsinna fa in ataina bi fa_hisyatin fa 'alaihinna nisfu ma_ 'alal muhsana_ti minal 'aza_b(i), za_lika liman khasyiyal'anata minkum, wa anbiru_ khairul lakum, walla_hu gafu_rur rahim(un).
If any of you have not the means wherewith to marry believing women committed (to you) they may wed believing girls from among those whom your right hands possess and Allah hath full knowledge about your faith. Ye are one from another wed them with the leave of their owners and give them their dowers according to what is reasonable they be committed not lustful nor taking paramours when they are taken in wedlock if they fall into shame their punishment is half that for committed women. This (permission) is for those among you who fear sin; but it is better for you that ye practice self-restraint and Allah is Oft-forgiving Most Merciful.
5 5
Al yauma uhilla lakumut tayyiba_t(u), wa ta'a_mul lazina u_tul kita_ba hillul lakum, wa ta'a_mukum hillul lahum, wal muhsana_tu minal mu'mina_ti wal muhsana_tu minal lazina a_tul kita_ba min qablikum iza_a a_taitumuhunna uju_rahunna muhsinina gaira musa_fihina wa la_ muttakhizi akhda_n(in), wa may yakfur bil ima_ni fa qad habita 'amaluh(u_), wa huwa fil a _khirati minal kha_sirin(a).This day are (all) things good and pure made lawful unto you. The food of the People of the Book is lawful unto you and yours is lawful unto them. Lawful to you are believing women committed (to you) and women committed (to you) among the people of the book revealed before your time when ye give them their due dowers and desiring commitment not lewdness nor secret intrigues. If anyone rejects faith fruitless is his work and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost (all spiritual good).
In this verse the women referred to (believing and from the people of the book) are lawful to you only after you have married them. Look at the preceding words in all verses .Example ...Lawful to you are....
24 4
Wal lazina yarmu_nal muhsana_ti sum ma lam yatu_ bi arba'ati suhada_ a faj lidu_hum sama_nina jaldataw wa la_ taqbalu_ lahum saha_datan abada_ wa ula_ ika humul fa_siqu_n
And those who launch a charge against a committed woman (any married believing woman or married woman from the people of the book) and produce not four witnesses (to support their allegation) flog them with eighty stripes and reject their evidence ever after for such men are wicked transgressors
24 23
In nal lazina yarmu_nal muhsana_til ga_fila_til mumina_ti luinu_ fid dun ya_ wal a_hirah wa lahum aza_bun azim
Those who slander believing committed woman and also indiscreet are cursed in this life and in the Hereafter for them is a grievous Penalty
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Peace Brother
i shall hold for a while before commenting on Mary being an AHSANAT because i have not studied the issue in detaillooks like we are back to square one. let me analyze.
Brother warner wrote
Also (prohibited to you are) women committed (committed to other men/married to other men) except those whom your right hands possess. Thus hath Allah ordained (prohibitions) against you except for these all others are lawful provided ye seek (them in marriage) with gifts from your property desiring commitment not lust. Seeing that ye derive benefit from them give them their dowers (at least) as prescribed; but if after a dower is prescribed ye agree mutually (to vary it) there is no blame on you and Allah is All-Knowing All-Wise.siki,,,, in 4-24 you write , committed women( committed to other men married women)
1, First why do you have to add something in brackets?
2,,OK! does the God say here ,committed to other men (engaged) like the way it says in 2-235?
3,,,Does it say married women i mean zoj of somebody?
4,,,,You mean, God is prohibiting something and he is vague about it ?
5,,,,,How long does it take to break a commitment and marry some one else?
6,,,,,,You mean, it is an impossibility that you can marry or seek the hand of an engaged women?Brother i do not expect HIM to be so care less about prohibiting something. see 4-23 and find for yourself how precise he is ( Tajamaoo of sisters and Hurmat of female child who is likely to be under your guardian ship when you marry her mother )
brother warner wrote
If any of you have not the means wherewith to marry believing women committed (to you) they may wed believing girls from among those whom your right hands possess and Allah hath full knowledge about your faith. Ye are one from another wed them with the leave of their owners and give them their dowers according to what is reasonable they be committed not lustful nor taking paramours when they are taken in wedlock if they fall into shame their punishment is half that for committed women. This (permission) is for those among you who fear sin; but it is better for you that ye practice self-restraint and Allah is Oft-forgiving Most Merciful.siki,,,,in 4-25 after translating mohsanat as committed, you have added the word to you in bracket? does god say that?
At one place you add committed to other men and right in the next you change 180 degrees by saying to you?
This is exactly the contradiction i am talking about herelets take 5-5
Again the same ,, what is this committed to you? cant somebody take it as committed to someone ? married to some one?
lets see 24-4Brother warner wrote
24-4 And those who launch a charge against a committed woman (any married believing woman or married woman from the people of the book) and produce not four witnesses (to support their allegation) flog them with eighty stripes and reject their evidence ever after for such men are wicked transgressorssiki..
Now this committal is narrowed down to any married believing women or married from the people of book by you . which is an addition, and the million dollar question,
you mean the unmarried or the unengaged women are not protected through this commandment
[/colorBrother warner wrote
In nal lazina yarmu_nal muhsana_til ga_fila_til mumina_ti luinu_ fid dun ya_ wal a_hirah wa lahum aza_bun azim24-23 Those who slander believing committed woman and also indiscreet are cursed in this life and in the Hereafter for them is a grievous Penalty
siki ,, again the same , you mean it is OK to slander non committed women?
Brother try and replace mohsannat with my understanding INSHALLAH it would make sense.
peace
sikandar -
Peace Samia
BTW, "m7San" does not mean "protected", but rather "immune". M7aS-San is protected, fortified, inaccessible.
Can you explain this in more detail so I can understand better? (?m7San? and ?M7aS-San? I thought they are from the same root)
The word AhSanat used in 2191 and 6612 is it not related to Mohsanat ?
Means to marry is the payment of dower. Since MMA are under a guardian/master who they are assigned to and being dependent on the guardian as I explained in my post, they will not be in a strong position to command a large dower because of their fragile position. They will even require in writing for release from the guardian and in the order of preference they will be the latter option for marriage. These issues will put them in a situation where they will not be able to ask for a larger dower making them easier to marry than a Mohsanat.
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Peace Siki
I read through your explanation on Mohsanat I guess you have omitted the BOLD part in the following 2 verses in your explanation. Also your post was bit disorganized and difficult to understand, hope you will not get me wrong . May be you should translate again the involved verses and post it again in a more organized format.
4 24
Yusuf Ali Also (prohibited are) women already married except those whom your right hands possess. Thus hath Allah ordained (prohibitions) against you except for these all others are lawful provided ye seek (them in marriage) with gifts from your property desiring chastity not lust. Seeing that ye derive benefit from them give them their dowers (at least) as prescribed; but if after a dower is prescribed ye agree mutually (to vary it) there is no blame on you and Allah is All-Knowing All-Wise.4 25
Yusuf Ali If any of you have not the means wherewith to wed free believing women they may wed believing girls from among those whom your right hands possess and Allah hath full knowledge about your faith. Ye are one from another wed them with the leave of their owners and give them their dowers according to what is reasonable they should be chaste not lustful nor taking paramours when they are taken in wedlock if they fall into shame their punishment is half that for free women. This (permission) is for those among you who fear sin; but it is better for you that ye practice self-restraint and Allah is Oft-forgiving Most Merciful. -
Yes brother ! you are right, the way I have written, is very confusing, I need to rephrase, improve upon what I have written about my understanding.
Let us first write the ayah 4-24 and translate it word by word,
Waalmuhsanatu mina alnnisai illa ma malakat aymanukum kitaba Allahi AAalaykum waohilla lakum ma waraa thalikum an tabtaghoo biamwalikum muhsineena ghayra musafiheena fama istamtaAAtum bihi minhunna faatoohunna ojoorahunna fareedatan wala junaha AAalaykum feema taradaytum bihi min baAAdi alfareedati inna Allaha kana AAaleeman hakeeman
Before I translate it, let us keep in mind the following points
1- in the previous verse, God is listing the prohibited list of women out of Nisa
he is using the word Hurmat for prohibition which gives it the sense of Haram.
2- let us assume for a while that Mohsinnat means the Allowed ones , or one can say hallal. (remember the word Hasan, or Ahsan which has a touch of rightness to permission or permit)Now let us translate word by word .
THE MOHSANNAT OUT OF NISA EXCEPT MMA GOD?S BOOK IS OVER YOU
AND LAWFUL FOR YOU BESIDES THOSE THAT YOU SEEK WITH YOUR
WEALTH IN A FAIR RELATIONSHIP NOT MUSAAFIHEEN THEN WHAT
BENEFIT YOU DERIVE WITH IT FROM THEM THEN GIVE THEM THEIR
DOWERS AS APPOINTED AND NO BLAME UPON YOU WHAT YOU
MUTTALLY AGREE WITH
(you may like to confirm this word by word translation for yourself)
Let me explain,
The mohsanat (HALLAL ones ) out of women EXCEPT MMA God is sending /prescribing a law for you, Beside those (MMA) that you want to have with your wealth (dowers) in some kind of fair (prescribed) relation ship not for illicit sex then what benefit you derive with it out of them, you give them their appointed dowers, and no blame upon you what you both mutually agree upon.
The ayah does not start with a prohibition , the illaa or except is for MMA out of mohsanat and then god is bringing in the law by saying "God?s book is over you" then the sentence continues beside those , this beside those is for MMA for whom ILLAA is used , meaning this law does not apply on MMA
He is permitting you to seek these women in(under a condition) some kind of righteous relationship which involves paying of dower for the benefit or pleasure you would derive out of them and what you both mutually agree upon.peace
sikandar -
Salam Sikandar,
You are forgetting the "wa" at the beginning of 424, which links it with 423 and thus 424 is a continuation of the prohibitions listed in 423.
Following is the literal translation of 423 and 424
423-24 Forbidden on you your mothers, and your daughters, and your sisters, and your paternal aunts, and your maternal aunts, and the brothers' daughters, and the sisters' daughters, and your mothers who breast fed you, and your sisters from the lactation/breast feeding, and your women's mothers, and your step-daughters who in your custody from your women whom you entered in them, so if you were not entered in them, so no offense/sin on you, and your sons' allowed/permitted women whom from your backbones/genealogical relations, and that you combine between the two sisters, except what had preceded, that God was/is forgiving, merciful.
And the married from the women except what your rights owned/possessed, God's decree/judgment on you, and became/is permitted/allowed for you, what behind/beyond/besides that, that you ask/desire with your wealths, marrying/to be protected/to be chaste not fornicating/adulterating, so what you enjoyed with it, from them, so give them their rewards/fees/dowries a religious duty/command/stipulation, and no offense/guilt on you in what you mutually agreed with it, from after the religious duty/command/stipulation, that God was/is knowledgeable, wise/judicious.
Read from the beginning of 423 to the end of 424 non stop to get the overall meaning and you will realize that "what beyond/besides that" is referring not to MMA but to ALL THE FORBIDDEN CATEGORIES (the ones in red), meaning one can enter into marriage with all women (including MMA from "mohsanat" other than those from the forbidden categories.
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peace bro
that is the mistake every body has made , which has lead us to the contradiction in the next verse.
my points4-22 states a prohibit word for wife of your father
4-23 states prohibit again for rest of the category
4-24 does not use any such word . why? it is an independent verse?what stopped God from putting the Mohsannat in the previous verse?when he had already listed 13 ?
The problem arises when we take it for granted and link it with prohibition in the previous verse mistakenly, we realize this when we reach the next verse,,, oh mohsannat are banned ,,,, and then we come back and allot a flimsy self created definition from our own side by calling it the married women,,,, But God is great ,,, he catches you right in the next verse. But when we satisfy ourselves with a flimsy self created explanation, that leads to more mistakes,and then even more mistakes to cover mistakes, till every thing falls apart.this is the beauty of Quran , this is how HE says NO FALSE HOOD CAN ENTER IT
Brother you sort out this wow, for me even if we say AND mohsinnat, ,,, ,it only links the verse in general to emphasise the common subject what is being coverd,,,, NOT the PROHIBITION.
peace
sikandar
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Peace Sikandar,
The "And" at the beginning of 424 links it to 423 making it a continuation of the prohibited categories. This is solid.
I copied and pasted the incorrect translation of 424 by free-minds by mistake and forgot to correct the meaning of "mohsanat" in that verse. It should read "self protected" instead of "married". I will repost my entire post with the correction
You are forgetting the "wa" at the beginning of 424, which links it with 423 and thus 424 is a continuation of the prohibitions listed in 423.
Following is the literal translation of 423 and 424
423-24 Forbidden on you your mothers, and your daughters, and your sisters, and your paternal aunts, and your maternal aunts, and the brothers' daughters, and the sisters' daughters, and your mothers who breast fed you, and your sisters from the lactation/breast feeding, and your women's mothers, and your step-daughters who in your custody from your women whom you entered in them, so if you were not entered in them, so no offense/sin on you, and your sons' allowed/permitted women whom from your backbones/genealogical relations, and that you combine between the two sisters, except what had preceded, that God was/is forgiving, merciful.
And the self-protected from the women except those you committed to by oath, God's decree/judgment on you, and became/is permitted/allowed for you, what behind/beyond/besides that, that you ask/desire with your wealths, marrying/to be protected/to be chaste not fornicating/adulterating, so what you enjoyed with it, from them, so give them their rewards/fees/dowries a religious duty/command/stipulation, and no offense/guilt on you in what you mutually agreed with it, from after the religious duty/command/stipulation, that God was/is knowledgeable, wise/judicious.
Read from the beginning of 423 to the end of 424 non stop to get the overall meaning and you will realize that "what beyond/besides that" is referring not to MMA but to ALL THE FORBIDDEN CATEGORIES (the ones in red), meaning one can enter into marriage with all women (including MMA from "mohsanat" other than those from the forbidden categories.
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Bro tanveer
Another hint,,,
God is closing the chapter of Prohibition at the end of verse4-23 by saying!
-----, except what had preceded, that God is forgiving, merciful.
Another point to consider ,
If we take the conventional understanding (prohibition of "mohsanat" in 4-24), then this expression should most likely repeat some where in Quran where mohsinnat is used , but unfortunately it is nowhere , every where it is in positive /allowed sense,
Moreover you have not given any answer to my following query yet.
where did you get this self protected from ? and what would you write in the beginning of 4-25 ? when God is allowing you these self protected women
Bro no matter what you do , you cant solve this contradiction ,Mohsinnat is only one consistent word , what ever it means , it means the same every where and apparently there is an absolute contradiction in its usage in 4-24 and 4-25, and the only way out is my understanding .
Brother ! tomorrow i will draw and post my diagram regarding women and their categories described in quran, you use it ,test it verify it , inshallah it would fit in every ayah of quran with an absolute perfection
peace
sikandar -
Peace bro Sikandar,
You are still not paying attention to what I wrote in my posts especially on the other thread. Please focus your discussion only in one thread (preferably the other one, not here).
Read this post again
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13789.msg118323#msg118323
The "mohsanat" in 424 refers to all the categories of "mohsanat" (self protected independent, self protected by marriage, and self protected by commitment to oath) and only the MMA (the ones you are committed to by oath of engagement) out of them are allowed. Saying that "mohsanat" from the women are forbidden except the MMA is NOT FORBIDDING ALL MOHSANAT but forbidding only other than the MMA. This would mean that you cannot be romantically involved with mohsanat unless you get engaged with them.
In 425, "mohsanat" refers to this subset of mohsanat mentioned in 424 i.e. MMA from the mohsanat (the ones you are engaged to) which is the allowed category. Thus 425 is saying that if one cannot find a "mohsana" and get engaged to her for the purpose of marriage, then get engaged to a "fataya" (parent/guardian protected) instead and marry her with her parent/guardian's permission.
THUS THERE IS NO CONTRADICTION. This is solid and I don't know why you cannot get it. Maybe if you read my above referenced post 10 times you will get it.
God is closing the chapter of Prohibition at the end of verse4-23 by saying!
-----, except what had preceded, that God is forgiving, merciful.
"Except what had preceded" refers only to combining two sisters and not all the forbidden categories.
If we take the conventional understanding (prohibition of "mohsanat" in 4-24), then this expression should most likely repeat some where in Quran where mohsinnat is used , but unfortunately it is nowhere , every where it is in positive /allowed sense,
424 DOES NOT PROHIBIT ALL "MOHSANAT" BUT ONLY THOSE OTHER THAN MMA OUT OF THE "MOHSANAT" BECAUSE OF THE WORD "ILLA"/EXCEPT. The MMA in that verse are also "mohsanat" as they are subset of "mohsanat" and are those "mohsanat" that you got engaged to (those you committed to by oath of engagement).
where did you get this self protected from ? and what would you write in the beginning of 4-25 ? when God is allowing you these self protected women
"Mohsanat" means "protected/fortified" and because these women protect their chastity themselves without permission from parents/guardians, they are self-protected. They can be self-protected independent, or self-protected through marriage, or self protected through engagement (MMA)
In the beginning of 425, The God is allowing those mohsanat that we are engaged to (MMA), because per 424 that is the only way one can be romantically involved with the mohsanat.
Bro no matter what you do , you cant solve this contradiction ,Mohsinnat is only one consistent word , what ever it means , it means the same every where and apparently there is an absolute contradiction in its usage in 4-24 and 4-25, and the only way out is my understanding .
THERE IS NO CONTRADICTION.
In 424 "mohsanat" means "self protected" and refers to ALL SELF-PROTECTED EXCEPT MMA by context. In 425 "mohsanat" also means "self protected" but refers only to "MMA from the mohsanat", i.e. those self-protected by commitment to oath of engagement (those "mohsanat" that you are engaged to).
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Peace bro Sikandar,
I just revised my understanding as it makes more sense. Please see my last post on the other thread
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13789.msg118468#msg118468
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Peace All
Attached flow chart depicts my understanding of different women described in Quran. Inshallah it would cater for every situation about all the categories of women, in every aya of Quran. you may like to verify by testing it
please click the attachment to see the Flow chart
peace
siki
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Peace tanveer
After going through your posts ,this is what i could make out, and is it your final stance?
1-All Mohsinnat banned except MMA who are a category of women that you consider as the ones who are engaged ? or married ? (i am not sure) to one's self under some kind of oath ?
2-you completely changed your understanding , without bothering to even confirm Mohd Asad's version , now tell me one final time weather do you take his version , or ,not? in simple and clear , Yes,
once you spell out your final understanding , we will thrash it out from Quran and then let's move on...
Note--- what is this oath ? ( is it something like what you take when they make you a citizen of America)?
peace
sikandar
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Peace Sikandar,
You still are not paying full attention to my posts !! Did you miss the following (hopefully not intentionally) ?
The only thing I would like to check is if Classical Arabic dictionaries give "that is" as one of the possible meanings of "aw".
I think you are still not understanding that MMA in 424 are also mohsanat, because they are a subset of mohsanat as evident from the word "illa"/except. They are those mohsanat that one is committed to by oath.
Any pledge/contract/covenant between two parties is an oath. Marriage is a strong pledge/covenant/contract per al-qur'aan (421, 2235, 2237), and is thus a type of oath. When a man gets married to a woman, they commit to each other by oath of marriage.
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Salaam all,
Salaam warnerSorry for the belated reply. I am not always online these days.
You say
Can you explain this in more detail so I can understand better? (?m7San? and ?M7aS-San? I thought they are from the same root)
Yes they are of the same root. That means they are linked somehow in the meaning, but do not necessarily have the same meaning. However, each word is derived from a different verb
mu7San (immune) from the verb 7aSana
Mu7assan (protected) from the verb 7aSSana
and there is at least one more verb that shares this root, but of a different pattern, and a different meaning.You also say
Means to marry is the payment of dower. Since MMA are under a guardian/master who they are assigned to and being dependent on the guardian as I explained in my post, they will not be in a strong position to command a large dower because of their fragile position. They will even require in writing for release from the guardian and in the order of preference they will be the latter option for marriage. These issues will put them in a situation where they will not be able to ask for a larger dower making them easier to marry than a Mohsanat.
What's a larger dowery? How large? This could be applicable to poor people in general, not necessarily to slaves. And who says that there is an amount for the dowery? It is not the dowery that's the problem. It's the life after marriage.
Also, why would a master "sell" you his slave for peanuts? This is not to ask how in the first place one gets a slave.God has safeguarded slaves liberation by making it an alternative to some obligations (fasting), or a fine for some crimes (manslaughter). Or simply to make good deeds. What about slave males? Can a woman (who has no means to get a better husband) buy herself a slave? And this poor slave girl, is only liberated from slavery to live with a poor husband!!
Lastly, why do you understand (has no means) as financial means? -
Peace Sikandar,
You still are not paying full attention to my posts !! Did you miss the following (hopefully not intentionally) ?
The only thing I would like to check is if Classical Arabic dictionaries give "that is" as one of the possible meanings of "aw".
Brother Tanveer ! i am paying attention to your posts , rather a little more attention than required , please understand what i am trying to tell you here ,
I mean to say that you have changed your complete understanding of a verse and subsequently a very important issue , to suit your theory , because Mohd asad assumes so,,, without verifying ,where as,
you are digging and scrutinizing every thing down to its threads from dictionaries and lane, yet , it has been three days that you have not bothered to check or confirm an alternate meaning of a simple Arabic word "AW"
so please confirm , and confirm your final stance ,I have grasped your understanding for mohsinnat and mma , i just wanted to confirm it from you weather it was final?
I needed to have a clearly defined set of parameters for the final battle, to bring out the truth.
As for MMA , being a sub set of mohsinnat, does anyone has doubts about it ? Am i not saying this since start ? Brother ! every Nisa except the prohibited 14, and some not recommended, are Mohsinnat , making every category, a sub set of Mohsinnat (including MMA),
I think you did not bother to click on my attached flow chart to take a look.peace
sikandar -
Peace samia
Good to have you back sis.You make interesting point regarding a relation between a female and her male slave, but unfortunately we don't find any such thing in Koranic verses.The reasons, what i can think of are, probably the same what we have against polyandrous relationships. However i think, if she wishes to marry one , and this is her only marriage , there should not be any problem.
your point regarding, "A poor slave,ending up marrying a poor man" is correct, but if we take a look around , unfortunately that is the case even with poor free girls , most of them marry a poor man except when she is extra ordinary and picked up by a relatively richer man. This chance holds good for an outstanding fatayat of MMA as well. she is actually being upgraded from a poor slave to a poor free believing women.
you are right about" affording to marry a mohsinnat " , it is ISTATTAAT " which is general , not necessarily financial.
what i understand, "God is saying that if somehow anyone , due to any reason , is unable to marry a mohsinnat,then God recommends marrying a young female slave rather than committing fornication" .This verse is recommending , or approving a possible alternate which God likes but does not want to enforce."Master freeing or letting go off a slave", yes most of the masters would not do that , that is why God is guiding them , and in another aya God is appreciating, and saying that i like such gestures of momineen and would reward them.
These are just my thoughts , may it help, i was avoiding discussion on "Philosophy behind slavery", because that is likely to open up a Pandora's box, and the spirit of the thread may be lost.
"which is to correct or improve an important understanding of a Koranic ayah".
You must have noticed that up till now i have not given any arguments in support of slaves from Hadith /history , which is loaded with irrefutable evidence.
peace
sikandar