Rukk'an and Sujjadan
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Salaam,
Rukku and Sujood both refer to bowing and prostrating, on a literal and symbolic level. In the Quran it is mostly used for to symbolize submission to Allah's Laws. In other verses it really means bowing and prostrating, physically with your body. There is no black and white on this, a lot of people believe they only mean physical bowing or only symbolically submission. But it is both.
Salaat in the Quran refers to following Allah's Laws closely, as 'following closely' is the main meaning of As-Salla. Then you have some verses were As-Salla is used for physical prayer, see 4102-105, but this refers to prayer in gatherings, not in private. Prayer is part of an Islamic community, and must be done collectively. It can be done individually of course, but this is done by people's own decision.
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I have seen your comments and we seem to differ as to that . If you check Surah 12 verse 99-100 ( Surah Yusuf). You will notice that your translation does hold there. So we think the appropriate tanslation is to submit oneself completely. In another verse God said Dhuhullul baba sujjadan (meaning )enter the gates with submission. In true Islam you will notice that God is more metaphorical is his words unlike the nominal islam. So you see .Try to put that meaning gave to all the sujad and sujjadan in the book and you see how it fits in.
After you have digested that we will go ahead with the salat aspect . waiting for your comments -
eehhh Ansi, read my post again, I say the exact same thing as you are saying about sujood.
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I appreciate you humility.You see we have been studying the Holy Book for close to twelve years now and during these years i can assure you we have gone from stage to stage of understading as God has said WALLAZINA JAHADU FI NA LANAHDIYANNAHUM SUBULANA, the methodology we go through in understanding the words is amazing. We understood SALAT,TASBIH,SUJUD ZAKAT etc pretty much the same method you used in analysing a WORD.We gradually had better understanding and would like to share with you some of these meanings to ponder over.
TASBIH=WORK
RUKU,RUKKA'AN=Return or Revert
SUJUD=Submit humbly
QIYAM/QAYYUM= steadfast.as for salat please go to BAQARAH where God said Qalu innalillahi wa inna ilaihi Raji'un , Ulaikal lazina alaihim Salatun min Rabbihim.... and think of closely.
You brother in truth seeking
ansi
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Peace and blessing to all
Brother Ansi, I wanted to know if there is an article or post somewhere where you put forward your ideas as to what Salat is and how is it to be done?
God bless
FJplease go through that ayah and assimilate it very well..Please read that ayah very well and remember God and his angels are doing Salat on us too. Ponder what that means?
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TASBIH=WORK
RUKU,RUKKA'AN=Return or Revert
SUJUD=Submit humbly
QIYAM/QAYYUM= steadfast.Salaam Ansi,
I agree with Tasbeeh referring to work or striving on your quest/mission.
Rukku i'm do not agree with the term revert/return, maybe you should explain your definition a bit more for me to comprehend. For ruku it is context related.
Sujud, yes agree.
Qiyam, agree.As for Salat, its main meaning Dictionary meaning refers to 'following closely/remain attached' and this meaning is explained in several ways. It is also context related, but we can discuss this more over time.
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Ruku'u means to stop in your tracks from what you were believing in and return to what God is instructing.
----Irkai ma'ar Rake'en( Revert /return with those who have returned/reverted)
----Irka e was Sujudee( Return to the path And Submit with humility)
----when Dawud committed an error of judgement in the case of the two liltigants and realised, he Immediately stopped in his tracks and returned back to the path (wa harra rakian )as you mentioned the dictionary meaning do no work in these cases because the Quran itsef is its own dictionary . this is our belief , we may be wrong but try placing that meaning in all the required places and they will fit perfect. you may kindly object as you please.
as for salat we will talk later . Iam delighted God speaks in the Quran to the Intellectuals (Li qaumi yatafakkarun) So Roko'o in the quran is metaphoric and not physical.
take for example when Ibrahim took his family to the valley where no growth of any thing was(GYARA ZI ZARI' IN). Ibrahim wanted his family to want from nobody but from God alone. HE TAUGHT THEM AT AN EARLY. AGE TO DEPEND ON GOD WHERE THERE IS NO ONE TO DEPEND ON. God was refering to His BAYT. God Does not have a house like we mortals, just as we require a house against the Elements, In this case, Gods's House is (NOT TO COMMIT SHIRK AGAINST HIM). If we realise that and protect that house (LA TUSHRIK BILLAH) we have fully understood His Essence.Although this is another topic of its own i we may discuss that later
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Peace Ansi
Thanks for the insightful analysis.
2125
Yusuf Ali Remember We made the house a place of assembly for men and a place of safety; and take ye the station of Abraham as a place of prayer; and We covenanted with Abraham and Isma`il that they should sanctify My House for those who compass it round or use it as a retreat or bow or prostrate themselves (therein in prayer).
Wa iz ja'alnal baita masa_batal linna_si wa amna_(n), wattakhizu_ mim maqa_mi ibra_hima musalla_(n), wa 'ahidna_ ila_ ibra_hima wa isma_'ila an tahhira_ baitiya lit ta_'ifina wal 'a_kifina war rukka'is suju_d(i).22 26
Yusuf Ali Behold! We gave the site to Abraham of the (Sacred) House (saying) "Associate not any thing (in worship) with Me; and sanctify My House for those who compass it round or stand up or bow or prostrate themselves (therein in prayer).
Wa iz baw wa'na_ li ibra_hima maka_nal baiti al la_ tusrik bi sai aw wa tah hir baitiya lit ta_ ifina wal qa_ imina war ruk ka'is suju_d17107 Say "Whether ye believe in it or not it is true that those who were given knowledge beforehand when it is recited to them fall down on their faces(chins/beards) in humble prostration"
Qul a_minu_ bihi au la_ tu'minu_, innal lazina u_tul 'ilma min qablihi iza_ yutla_ 'alaihim yakhirru_na lil azqa_ni sujjada_(w),1958 Those were some of the prophets on whom Allah did bestow His Grace, - of the posterity of Adam, and of those who We carried (in the Ark) with Noah, and of the posterity of Abraham and Israel of those whom We guided and chose. Whenever the Signs of (Allah) Most Gracious were rehearsed to them, they would fall down in prostrate adoration and in tears.
Ola-ika allatheena anAAama AllahuAAalayhim mina alnnabiyyeena min thurriyyati adamawamimman hamalna maAAa noohin wamin thurriyyatiibraheema wa-isra-eela wamimmanhadayna waijtabaynaitha tutla AAalayhim ayatu alrrahmanikharroo sujjadan wabukiyyan
Are you of the opinion that there is no physical ruku and sujud? How about the verses above. Some verses say fell/falling in ruku or sujud if I am not mistaken.
What is the literal meaning (if possible from the Quran) of the following ?fatannahufaistaghfara rabbahu wakharra rakiAAan waanaba?( 3824 )
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Brother
Oh come on, we are past Yusuf Ali, or Pithkal by now, we are talking about what God means in the Qur'an. Please read the qur'an very well again and again. All those past translators were sunni or whatever so they based their translation on their past beliefs . Remember we are followers of the Qur'an . Peace be with you and be calm because its meaning will come clear(thumma inna ilaina jam'ahu waqur'anahu). with all due respect the quran is a book that is so intellectual and full of metaphors and allegories. he beautiful thing is that when you finally reach that level of understanding, You wil be finally FREE Check 37 -
Peace be to you . I advice you to be calm and read the quran again calmly.
We are past Yusuf Ali (or any Sunni or sect translators), we are a community that has been freed by the knowledge of the quran . We have dared to think free and really understand the Quran in proper meaning. We have dared to be the RASIHUN that God had mentioned In 37 . We all can be, by continually reading the book and understanding its linguistic(arabic) metaphors and allegories.I wish you all the best in the journey. -
Peace ansi
please go through that ayah and assimilate it very well..Please read that ayah very well and remember God and his angels are doing Salat on us too. Ponder what that means?
First, which ayah is it that you are referring and, secondly, you have to know that my understanding of quran is derived only from translated version in English coz i don't speak the language of quran ARabic.
however, i like your interpretation and please do share some more with us.
Peace,
FJ -
Peace Ansi,
First, welcome to the forum.
Ruku'u means to stop in your tracks from what you were believing in and return to what God is instructing.
----Irkai ma'ar Rake'en( Revert /return with those who have returned/reverted)
----Irka e was Sujudee( Return to the path And Submit with humility)
----when Dawud committed an error of judgement in the case of the two liltigants and realised, he Immediately stopped in his tracks and returned back to the path (wa harra rakian )Thank you for providing this excellent understanding and shedding light on those terms.
as you mentioned the dictionary meaning do no work in these cases because the Quran itsef is its own dictionary . this is our belief , we may be wrong but try placing that meaning in all the required places and they will fit perfect. you may kindly object as you please.
Dictionaries are tools that must be used intelligently. The extensive use of idioms in the great reading makes dictionaries by themselves useless to understanding its message. For example, if you try to understand the word "light" in my above sentence using the dictionary, you will get the meaning that I am thanking you for holding a lamp.
Iam delighted God speaks in the Quran to the Intellectuals (Li qaumi yatafakkarun) So Roko'o in the quran is metaphoric and not physical.
Yes, intellectuals are not superficial people who only care about the superficial physical aspect of things. Even non-intellectuals regularly use idioms and use words to convey deep meanings that go beyond the mere superficial physical aspect. So when someone says "the court issued a verdict", he doesn't mean that the physical wall and ceilings issued a verdict but the court system issued a verdict.
According to the dictionary, "sirat" literally means a "path". Yet no one with a grain of logic would take it as a physical path. If so, then why do people think that the god is primaraly concerned with a superficial "physical position" when talking about "ruku" and "sujud"?
From my experience, the more people are lost, the more they are concerned about superficial things. The most lost Sunnis even think that "al-sirat al-mostaqim" is a physical high wire hanging over hell that we have to physically cross by performing a high-wire circus act on it. This is the way of thinking of superficial people who are only concerned about the superficial in this world and are unaware of the ending.
The extensive use of idioms in the great reading provides guidance to those who are forethoughtful not for those who can look up a word in a dictionary.
I look forward to your continued excellent contribution to this forum.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace ansi,
Welcome. I am very pleased to hear your translations. For sometime now I have felt at peace with the belief that with all the confusion on the proper way to pray, that very many had it wrong. Although I do not read/speak Arabic, nor consider myself an intellectual, I do believe that God gave me the ability to discern between right and wrong. As for prayer, for a long time now I have held to the understanding of it being more metaphoric than physical. Although obviously there are times when we will all, inshallah, throw outselves to the ground to give thanks, ask for forgiveness, or beg for mercy.
I think that sometimes a person can OVER analyze the words. If we feel God with our hearts, read His words with our hearts, and absorb with our souls we can come to understand Him without the belief that "with all due respect the quran is a book that is so intellectual and full of metaphors and allegories. he beautiful thing is that when you finally reach that level of understanding, You wil be finally FREE Check 37" I believe that our understanding of God is as much about heart as it is about intellect and that the Qur'an is meant to be understood on several levels. I pray that with every new day I will move closer to knowing It on all of them.
Peace and love,
lilyfleur -
Peace be upon you All
I would like to express my gratitude to Ansi for his participation and Contribution to this forum . I and several brothers of the God alone / Quran only movement in my home Town have been Studying The Quran from various methods and Perspectives since 1994 . While it is very important to know the Literal Meanings of each Verse, the Real Meanings and our Understanding of the Verses will only come later and as you said, The Quran is its own dictionary , so our understanding of the Quran Need not be Uniform . The Literal Meanings and The Root method is Fine , but it is not the Be All and End All . I am aware that Dictionary defines Words but it was us the Human Beings who Give Meanings to Words in the First place.
If you Read the Views of some of the Founders of the so called Quran Alone Movement belief that All the Islamic Practices began with Ibrahim etc is just pure Misconstruction of the Quran and it appears that 4213 eluded them , also the beliefs that it was Ibrahim who named Us muslims when in fact it was Him ( Allah ) who did so from before ......in 2278 . Perhaps because the younger Brothers and Sisters here found It too easy with all the available Tools? So we have too many Overnight Experts with superficial understanding . I honestly admire their enthusiasm and eagerness to share their Knowledge and their helpfulness , but I think We should all take time in Studying the Quran and not Rushing ourselves to conclusions and To understand and fit Words according to context of the Verses instead of giving all possible meanings of a Word , I feel it is best to pick One that we are Certain with and we believe in . Otherwise , it would just lead to Confusion.
Looking forward to more Quality Inputs form My Honourable Brothers and Sisters in this Forum .Wassalamu' ala manittaba'al hudaa
almarh0m
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salaam,
I quite appreciate your comments and have deep respect for your understanding.It is because of what God saw in your hearts that he allowed your guidance so, we praise his benevolence.
Remember God had been saying in the BOOK continually, The message of the past has been the current. Nothing changes (the basic fundamentals) except the dynamics(if God says like the things you can ride it may be a horse 500 years ago but 1000years after ,an aeroplane ).The message of the past prophets has always been the one repeated again and again. If there was no consistency certainly there would have been confusion. -
Dear Brothers
The reason most of us are in this board is to learn and follow what the Quran instructs us since we believe it is the revelation of Allah. Even when we try to follow only the Quran still we run in to differences due to a variety of reasons. One such is different interpretations arising from literal and metaphorical aspects of a term or verse. But there can not be two Islams or two understandings of the Quran and I don?t want to be left out of the right one. The Quraan is its own dictionary as we all agree and more so to someone like me who has no Arabic background. The brothers (also the sister Samia) have been very helpful in explaining the complexities of Arabic which I do not understand most of the time.
Ruku and sujud
I seek your assistance on this. As Arnold Yasin explained ruku and sujud have both the
literal ((physical) and metaphorical meaning. The metaphorical meaning Ansi explained lucidly. But also we get the undertones that there is no physical aspects to ruku and sujud.Although I tried really hard I can not come up with symbolic explanations to the following verses connected to ruku and sujud. Please assist me in understanding them metaphorically.
Fall down to chin/beard in sujud or fall down to chin/beard 17107 and 17109
Fall in sujud 1958, 3215
Fall rakiAAan 3824Salat
Some of the brothers posted that Salat means ?follow? in relation to the second horse which is following the first one closely in a race. This interpretation is not from the Quraan and it is false to say this meaning is derived from Tasreef/cross reference unless someone meant cross reference from Lanes. I guess the word salat is repeated in the Quran about 80 times. If Quraan is the best dictionary what will be the meaning of Salat from the Quran and not from Lanes. -
Salat
Some of the brothers posted that Salat means ?follow? in relation to the second horse which is following the first one closely in a race. This interpretation is not from the Quraan and it is false to say this meaning is derived from Tasreef/cross reference unless someone meant cross reference from Lanes. I guess the word salat is repeated in the Quran about 80 times. If Quraan is the best dictionary what will be the meaning of Salat from the Quran and not from Lanes.The Quran is its own dictionary when it comes to defining what to follow, but you cannot dismiss dictionary meanings as nonsense. We all use dictionaries to know words in the Quran, only the key is that we must the Quran as the creator of the definition of the words.
How do you know the meanings of simple things as 'they said', did you get this from the Quran itself or from dictionaries? People mix up 2 distinct things, which is that the dictionaries can define a word and its background, but the definition of the word given in the dictionary is not immediately the defintion of the word in the Quran.
For example zakat's dictionary meaning is 'to grow'. In the Quran Zakat is always linked to economical matters, and thus the Quran creates the new definition of the word, where Zakat means 'an economic system that makes people develop/grow'.
The dictionary gives the definition of how people used the word, the Quran gives the definition on how God uses the word, that is the difference.
Salat means mainly 'to follow/remain attached' in the Dictionary, in the Quran it is used for 'following the Divine Laws' as used in 2441 with animals following their instincts. This is the difference between the dictionary meaning which gives the human definition, and the Quran that explains the Divine definition.
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peace Arnold, all,
In the Quran Zakat is always linked to economical matters, and thus the Quran creates the new definition of the word, where Zakat means 'an economic system that makes people develop/grow'.
I think the above is an exaggeration, see 7156, 1881, 1913.
