Rukk'an and Sujjadan
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Peace Wakas,
That is another discussion Wakas, the point I was making, was that the dictionaries contain the human definition of the word, and the Quran eloborates further on that human definition and explains its own definition.
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Peace be with you
Lets look at the root and the meaning of these words from the lexicon.
= Sad-Lam-Waw = prayer, supplication, petition, oration, eulogy, benediction, commendation, blessing, honour, magnifiy, bring forth, follow closely, walk/follow behind closely, to remain attached.
In a horse race when the second horse follows the first one so closely that its head always overlaps the first horse?s body that horse is called AL-MUSSALLI (i.e. the one who follows closely / remains attached). Central portion of the back, portion from where the tail of an animal comes out, the rump. (From Lanes)
LL, V4, p 444, 445 http//www.studyquran.org
The meanings of Sa la wa above misses one important meaning which is obvious in the verse 1181.
11 81
Transliteration Qa_lu_ ya_ lu_tu inna_ rusulu rabbika lay yasilu_ ilaika fa asri bi ahlika bi qit'im minal laili wa la_ yaltafit minkum ahadun illa-mra'atak(a), innahu_ musibuha_ ma_ asa_bahum, inna mau'idahumus subh(u), alaisas subhu bi qarib(in).
Yusuf Ali (The Messengers) said "O Lut! we are Messengers from thy Lord! By no means shall they reach thee! Now travel with thy family while yet a part of the night remains and let not any of you look back but thy wife (will remain behind) to her will happen what happens to the people. Morning is their time appointed is not the morning nigh?"
The verse 1181 most translated ?yasilu? as ?reach? which is the obvious meaning in that verse.
Also the root = Sad-Lam-Waw is used in the following verses with direct meanings as reach , joined/connect and touch .
227, 490, 6136, 1170, 1181, 1321(twice), 1325, 2835, 2851
The example about the horse as Al Mussalli has no basis in the Quran and also in a race when the second horse ?follows the first one so closely that its head always overlaps the first horse?s body? the second horse is "reaching" or "reached" the first horse. Besides it is a race; it is not about following one another. The meaning is reaching not going past or being behind. If any of those happen it will not be Al Mussalli any more.
So I believe ?Salat? can be translated as ?reaching out? which also implies the meaning ?connect/connection?.
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Reaching out/connecting/remain attached/following closely all encompass the same definition from different view points. In 2441 it would still refer to 'staying connected with Allah's Laws'.
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peace warner,
The meanings of Sa la wa above misses one important meaning which is obvious in the verse 1181.
Also the root = Sad-Lam-Waw is used in the following verses with direct meanings as reach , joined/connect and touch .
227, 490, 6136, 1170, 1181, 1321(twice), 1325, 2835, 2851
The above is FALSE.
You are confusing the roots Sawd-Lam-Waw and Waw-Sawd-Lam. I made the same mistake in the past.
See PRL
http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm -
Salaam all
Welcome to the forum ansi. I do appreciate your thoughtful input.
A comment for both you and Arnold
I believe that "salat" can be both private and physical as per verse 2458. The "private" meaning is obvious because of the timing. The physical meaning is because God wont command us to "follow His system" twice a day at prescribed time.
warner wrote
What is the literal meaning (if possible from the Quran) of the following ?fatannahufaistaghfara rabbahu wakharra rakiAAan waanaba?( 3824 )
It means David believed God was testing him (or his faith), so he asked forgiveness, returned to the path and replaced "what he did before with what he believed God wanted him to do".
"anab to replace"
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Peace be on you all
I will try and answer the questions the best way I can but you should forgive my inadequacies as a human.
(3107) Say believe in it or do not believe in it, those who have been endowed with knowledge from the past (ancient books) whenever it is recited to them subject their feelings/taste towards total submission with humility.
The point here is(AZQAN). This word in the Quran is basically FEELING/TASTE. Lets explore where the word is used in the BOOK.(Yunus21), (HUD9),(HUD10),(NAHL112),(ISRA75).In all it occurs in 63 places.
I will still use the Quran as the mega dictionary, because the human dictionary though good has its limitations because its compilation is human .Its flexibility depends on its compilers.
The Quran speaks in classical Arabic.
(17109) ?and their taste/feelings/ are reduced to tears which increases their humility.To further butress my point, I will like to add by saying that God said (THARABA), in so many places in the BOOK, but our human compilers translated it as (BEAT/HIT/STRIKE). But we now know better . God means SEND FORTH/PUT FORTH with this word.
(Kharra/Khirru), meaning too is not physical or rather superficial. It is purely metaphoric as in FALL IN LINE or rather move oneself from a higher position to a lower one. (FURQAN73) -
Peace Wakas
You should have remained with your previous understanding. If we have any pre Quranic or even contemporary sources on development of Arabic root words then we will be in a position to get a better understanding on this outside the Quraan. If you analyze in which century these developments took place including the period and the background of the source you quoted then you will realize much of the manipulation has taken place by then. Among this manipulations they were changing or writing lexicons to fit their traditional understanding of the Quraan and creating new roots for words imported from foreign languages to name few. We can not rely 100% on sources 100-200 years after the Quran. The Arabic root system is a good foundation but not an end in itself. For a better understanding of development of Arabic language (including development of lexicons and word meanings) please read the following article.
The Development of Classical Arabic by Kees Versteegh
http//arabworld.nitle.org/texts.php?module_id=1&reading_id=17&print=1 -
Peace Samia
Its ironic Ansi wrote on this I wanted to ask the reason you left out ?Kharra? since the other 3 words there is no major problem.
Can Ruku mean kneel since the word has relation to knee?
I am still stuck with chin/beard usage with sujud in verses I quoted above?
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Salaam warner
The word kharra is firstly designaed to sound to murmur, bubble...given to the sound of water when it moves or falls, hence the adjusted meaning of (to fall like water).
raka3a is of the root Re Kaf 3ain; whereas to kneel is (baraka) Baa Re Kaf. It is derived form the word rukba (knee).
You may notice that the root of rukba and baraka are not of simmilar succession RKB and BRK. As I remember a long time ago when I studdied roots of some Arabic words in relation to Hebrew, this was one of the examples of distorted words in Arabic (in Herew burkha knee).
The original meaning of the word raka3a is to submit in humiliation, to yield. Since "kneeling" is the physical manifestation of this, it is borrowed to mean to kneel.
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Peace Ansi
According to you Rakka/ruku means
RUKU,RUKKA'AN=Return or Revert
----Irkai ma'ar Rake'en( Revert /return with those who have returned/reverted)
And according to Samia
The original meaning of the word raka3a is to submit in humiliation, to yield
Why this difference. Her definition of rukaa/ruku is same as your definition of sujud. Maybe these are small differences which we will be able to sort out. Are you still of the opinion that salat is not physical?
Also
According to you sujud means
----Irka e was Sujudee( Return to the path And Submit with humility)
SUJUD=Submit humbly
And
Samia has not submitted her analysis on sujud still. So we can wait for her reply on this.
Also I guess we have difference arising from tghese two words in the verses discussed on sujud and chin/beard. I will wait for Ayman or Samia to quote on this difference.
Thal-Qaf-Nun = to strike on the chin, lean the chin upon (with ala), chin, although its primary meaning is chin it may be rendered as face.
To straighten.
A decrepit/old/weak man.adhqan n.f. (pl. of dhaqn) - 17107, 17109, 368
Lane's Lexicon, Volume 3, page 133, 134
Thal-Waw-Qaf - to taste/experience/try/perceive. One who tastes, cause to taste.
dhaqa vb. (I)
perf. act. 6148, 722, 5915, 645, 659
impf. act. 456, 595, 1694, 388, 3857, 4456, 7824
impv. 3106, 3181, 630, 739, 814, 835, 850, 935, 1052, 2222, 2955, 3214, 3220, 3442, 3537, 3924, 4449, 4634, 5114, 5437, 5439, 5448, 7830
pcple. act. 3185, 2135, 2957, 3731, 3738adhaqa vb. (IV)
perf. act. 1021, 119, 1110, 16112, 1775, 3033, 3036, 3926, 4150, 4248
impf. act. 665, 1070, 229, 2225, 2519, 3041, 3046, 3221, 3412, 4116, 4127, 4150Lane's Lexicon, Volume 3, page 154, 155
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Peace Ansi
(17107) Say believe in it or do not believe in it, those who have been endowed with knowledge from the past (ancient books) whenever it is recited to them subject their feelings/taste towards total submission with humility.
The point here is(AZQAN). This word in the Quran is basically FEELING/TASTE. Lets explore where the word is used in the BOOK.(Yunus21), (HUD9),(HUD10),(NAHL112),(ISRA75).In all it occurs in 63 places.I wasn?t talking about kharra /khirru/fall at the moment. In 17107 adhqan (chin/beard) you have mixed up with the word ?azaqnan? ( Feeling/Taste). The word in 1021 is ?azaqnan? and not azqan.
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Peace Samia
You have dropped few useful clues plus explanations for us to judge and understand but you have steered clear from actually translating. Cant blame you. I understood the meanings individually and they seem right but is it necessary to have kharra/ khirru/fall in the verse to communicate submit in humility.
Also can you expand your explanations to sujud.
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I think the verb kharra also indicates "without hesitation, quickly" just as water does when it runs or falls. Even if there's an obstacle, it does not easily stop it like would happen with other objects; as sooner or later it will leak
And yes warner, I prefer to give meanings. I am better with that than with interpretation.
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Peace Samia
Thanks for the excellent meanings given.
The original meaning of the word raka3a is to submit in humiliation, to yield. Since "kneeling" is the physical manifestation of this, it is borrowed to mean to kneel.
Can we find in the Quraan any support for physical manifestations of rakaa or sujud ?
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salam warner,
With all due respect, what makes you think ATHQAN is chin/beard, What makes you think there is no corelation to the athaqna. what about its plural. And again when you hit the groung physically do you hit with your chin or beard or with your forehead, iam certainly at a loss. Since Abraham started all this, which book did he read to pray (answer me with quote from the Quran). Please check again and find out what does God means in BAQARA when he said (qalu innalil lahi wa in ilaihi raji,un alaihim salawatun min rabihim) contextualy. What again does HE mean when the people of SHUAIB challenged him (is your saalatuka going to stop us from what we have been practicing), Since God and his Angels pray to us , how do they do it, The birds too pray , how do they pray,or rather (inas Salata tanha anil Munkar wal bagi). are these physical?Please answer me from the Quran alone not from any dictionary or Yusuf Ali translation.
