Rukk'an and Sujjadan
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Salaam all
salam warner,
With all due respect, what makes you think ATHQAN is chin/beard, What makes you think there is no corelation to the athaqna. what about its plural. .Sorry to jump on this. Athqaan is the plural of thiqn. It does not share the same root as Athaqna (thawq) thal qaaf nuun is the root of athgaan (S thiqn); thal wau qaaf is the root of athaqna (N thawq)
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Dear Ansi
What is BAQARA? From which great translation did you get that?
Also, can you point me to an error free translation?Is PRAYER your definition of SALAT?
There is another thread started by Almarhom on thuma jahima sallu 6931( http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13892.0). I guess that will help.
Will you kindly thank Samia for explaining the plural of thiqn .
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How do i put my chin then on the ground Physically. Sorry its kind of difficult. Or is it metaphorical?
Why on the ground? How about your fingers or back of the hand? Isn't this the normal position when thinking or admiring something? Does the verse mention ground?
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Peace Wakas
You should have remained with your previous understanding. If we have any pre Quranic or even contemporary sources on development of Arabic root words then we will be in a position to get a better understanding on this outside the Quraan. If you analyze in which century these developments took place including the period and the background of the source you quoted then you will realize much of the manipulation has taken place by then. Among this manipulations they were changing or writing lexicons to fit their traditional understanding of the Quraan and creating new roots for words imported from foreign languages to name few. We can not rely 100% on sources 100-200 years after the Quran. The Arabic root system is a good foundation but not an end in itself. For a better understanding of development of Arabic language (including development of lexicons and word meanings) please read the following article.
The Development of Classical Arabic by Kees Versteegh
http//arabworld.nitle.org/texts.php?module_id=1&reading_id=17&print=1Perhaps in future you should consider pointing this out before you make a similar statement, e.g. "my following observation only holds if...(see above)"
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Dear Wakas
Did you read the article on the link provided by me? Can you please bring your refutations against the article since I am not knowledgeable enough to refute it.
Every time some one writes a post here do they have to include the exemption clause "my following observation only holds if " you do not entirely rely on hadeeth and such. The sources you are suggesting are much recent than Hadeeth literature.
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Rokoo/Rakaa , Kharra/Khirru , Sajed/Sujud/sujjadan
Following is an effort to understand some popular but controversial words in the Quraan in light of Hebrew and Aramaic language meanings of similar words and the Semitic roots. Most of the words and the meanings below are used in the OT and NT.
We must remember all 3 above words have physical and non physical aspects. The physical aspect will be useless without the non physical aspect since both aspects are almost inseparable. There is no physical state of submission without a mental state of submission. It is actually the physical manifestation of a mental state. For instance Rakaa is what David did when he realized his mistake and asks for forgiveness from his Lord (3824). Therefore repenting, asking for forgiveness in mind and word/speech is one aspect and of which the physical manifestation is Rakaa.
It may not be possible to find meanings for all the words that we do not clearly understand in the Qurran, in Hebrew or Aramaic since some of the meanings may not be accurate due to corruption over the years in those languages same as the corruption of Arabic word meanings over the years . But all three languages have lot in common including many words they share for the same or similar meaning. Also an important fact is that the language spoken by many of the earlier messengers is either Hebrew or Aramaic (and few other languages with Semitic origins).
While reading the words below I like to remind you of an important aspect of the Quraan which we neglect. It is the fact that to whom the message is addressed to (in which period) and how that person would have understood the message in his or her original language. From what I have noticed almost every time this happens the main words used are similar or same as of Arabic so this would not have confused the Arabic speaking people when the message was revealed.
For instance when Mary was commanded waosjudeewairkaAAee maAAa alrrakiAAeena (probably something very similar in Aramaic which you can see when you read further) in 343 what the words would have meant to her in the language she is familiar with (Aramaic) can be important to our understanding of the Quraan. Though the verse is in Arabic you will notice the important words are shared by all three languages. I do not deny different meanings which have come in due to later corruption but the origin of the word, the likely meanings and the use , the picture it creates can not be ignored.
I will reserve my opinion on the words below until the discussion starts. So please read the words the meanings and picture the image/picture associated with it. One piece of advise is that Knee/kneel is not "rakaa" and kneeling is not the physical manifestation of repentance. Rakaa is from bending/leaning , arch/curve as you can see from below. But when the Quraan says falling in these contexts that means falling down in 2 knees or kneeling.
I have arranged in to 4 broad categories and not in perfect order; Fall, Rakaa, Sujood, Kneel.
Please note this is not a conclusion of a research but additional information on which a research can be based.
The dictionary used is Strongs Hebrew Bible Dictionary. http//www.heraldmag.org/olb/Contents/dictionaries/SHebrew.pdf
Fall
The serial number in Strongs Dictionary, the word in in Hebrew or Armaic, the pronounciation and the corresponding meanings are given below
3766
kara` kaw-rah'
a primitive root; to bend the knee; by implication, to sink, to prostrate--bow (down, self), bring down (low), cast down, couch, fall, feeble, kneeling, sink, smite (stoop) down, subdue, X very.
3767
kara` kaw-raw'
from 'kara`' (3766); the leg (from the knee to the ankle) of men or locusts (only in the dual)--leg.
Rakaa/Rokoo
754
'arka' ar-kaw'
(Aramaic) or narkah (Aramaic) {ar-kaw'}; from ''arak' (749); length--lengthening, prolonged.
7390
rak rak
from 'rakak' (7401); tender (literally or figuratively); by implication, weak--faint((-hearted), soft, tender ((-hearted), one), weak.
7391
rok roke
from 'rakak' (7401); softness (figuratively)--tenderness.
7401
rakak raw-kak'
a primitive root; to soften (intransitively or transitively), used figuratively--(be) faint((-hearted)), mollify, (be, make) soft(-er), be tender.
3417
yaraq yaw-rak'
a primitive root; to spit--X but, spit.
3418
yereq yeh'-rek
from 'yaraq' (3417) (in the sense of vacuity of color); properly, pallor, i.e. hence, the yellowish green of young and sickly vegetation; concretely, verdure, i.e. grass or vegetation--grass, green (thing).
7401
rakak raw-kak'
a primitive root; to soften (intransitively or transitively), used figuratively--(be) faint((-hearted)), mollify, (be, make) soft(-er), be tender.
7534
raq rak
from 'raqaq' (7556) in its original sense; emaciated (as if flattened out)--lean((-fleshed)), thin.
7535
raq rak
the same as 'raq' (7534) as a noun; properly, leanness, i.e. (figuratively) limitation; only adverbial, merely, or conjunctional, although--but, even, except, howbeit howsoever, at the least, nevertheless, nothing but, notwithstanding, only, save, so (that), surely, yet (so), in any wise.
7536
roq roke
from 'raqaq' (7556); spittle--spit(-ting, -tle).
7541
raqqah rak-kaw'
feminine of 'raq' (7534); properly, thinness, i.e. the side of the head--temple.
7549
raqiya` raw-kee'-ah
from 'raqa`' (7554); properly, an expanse, i.e. the firmament or (apparently) visible arch of the sky--firmament.
7555
riqqua` rik-koo'-ah
from 'raqa`' (7554); beaten out, i.e. a (metallic) plate--broad.
7556
raqaq raw-kak'
a primitive root; to spit--spit.
7554
raqa` raw-kah'
a primitive root; to pound the earth (as a sign of passion); by analogy to expand (by hammering); by implication, to overlay (with thin sheets of metal)--beat, make broad, spread abroad (forth, over, out, into plates), stamp, stretch.
Knee/Kneel
86
'abrek ab-rake'
probably an Egyptian word meaning kneel--bow the knee.
755
'arkubah ar-koo-baw'
(Aramaic) from an unused root corresponding to 'rakab' (7392) (in the sense of bending the knee); the knee--knee.
7537
raqab raw-kab'
a primitive root; to decay (as by worm-eating)--rot.
7538
raqab raw-kawb'
from 'raqab' (7537); decay (by caries)--rottenness (thing).
7539
riqqabown rik-kaw-bone'
from 'raqab' (753; decay (by caries)--rotten.
7540
raqad raw-kad'
a primitive root; properly, to stamp, i.e. to spring about (wildly or for joy)--dance, jump, leap, skip.
7392
rakab raw-kab'
a primitive root; to ride (on an animal or in a vehicle); causatively, to place upon (for riding or generally), to despatch--bring (on (horse-)back), carry, get (oneself) up, on (horse-)back, put, (cause to, make to) ride (in a chariot, on, -r), set.
1288
barak baw-rak'
a primitive root; to kneel; by implication to bless God (as an act of adoration), and (vice-versa) man (as a benefit); also (by euphemism) to curse (God or the king, as treason)--X abundantly, X altogether, X at all, blaspheme, bless, congratulate, curse, X greatly, X indeed, kneel (down), praise, salute, X still, thank.
1289
brak ber-ak'
(Aramaic) corresponding to 'barak' (128--bless, kneel.
1290
berek beh'-rek
from 'barak' (128; a knee--knee.
1291
berek beh'-rek
(Aramaic) corresponding to 'berek' (1290)--knee.
1295
brekah ber-ay-kaw'
from 'barak' (128; a reservoir (at which camels kneel as a resting-place)--(fish-)pool.
1296
Berekyah beh-rek-yaw'
or Berekyahuw {beh-rek-yaw'-hoo}; from 'berek' (1290) and 'Yahh' (3050); knee (i.e. blessing) of Jah; Berekjah, the name of six Israelites--Berachiah, Berechiah.
Sajada/Sujood
5456
cagad saw-gad'
a primitive root; to prostrate oneself (in homage)--fall down.
5457
cgid seg-eed'
(Aramaic) corresponding to 5456 ; worship
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Peace Ansi
I checked the web site but I only read the preface of his book Mental Bondage . I do not have much free time currently.Is it possible to download the book from the site?
Please share with us if you find anything important from aidid safar.
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Peace all,
The following verses are also evidence of physical "sujood"
2724 "And I found her and her people prostrating to the sun instead of God! And the devil had made their work appear good to them, so he kept them away from the path, for they are not being guided."
4137 And from among His signs are the night and the day, and the sun and the moon. Do not prostrate to the sun, nor the moon; you shall prostrate to God who created them, if it is truly Him you serve.
How can one mentally submit to or obey the sun and the moon ?
4829 Mohammed is the messenger of God, and those who are with him are severe against the rejecters, but merciful between themselves. You see them kneeling and prostrating, they seek God's blessings and approval.
Being able to "see" implies physical ruku and sujood. How can one "see" a mental humility and submission ?
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Peace all,
Why on the ground? How about your fingers or back of the hand? Isn't this the normal position when thinking or admiring something? Does the verse mention ground?
I agree that the verses 17107 and 17109 do not imply touching the ground with one's chin as the words used translate to "fall TO their chins" (LIL ATHQAAN), and not "fall UPON their chins" (3LA AL-ATHQAN). This, however, can still be interpreted as a physical sujood in which one lowers the chin to the ground without touching it, or flexing one's neck thereby lowering one's chin until it touches the upper chest.
This physical sujood also implies a mental submission to or hearing and obeying the verses in addition to the physical sujood, otherwise the physical sujood to the chins will not really be a sujood without the accompanying mental submission.
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for you tanveer
? How can the ritual prayer of the Prophet console people or make them happy? (9103)
? When you are in sudden disaster or facing sudden death, how can the two strangers who are to be witnesses (and who may not know anything about the Arab religion) perform the ritual prayer before swearing to God that they will be truthful? (5106)
? How did all the people of a town and those living in the surrounding areas preserve their ritual prayer (wa hum alaa Solaa-tihim haafizuun) as soon as they heard the message of the Qur?an (692)? It may have included non-believers, Christians or Jews.
? Why is it that yuSollu means ritual prayer in 4102 but in 3356 it means honour and support?
? Likewise, how does the word yuSollee in 339 turn into ritual prayer while in 3343 it is said to mean honour?
? Solluu in 3356 and Sollee in 9103 have come to mean honour and supplication. In 75 31 and in 9610 the word Solaa is said to mean ritual prayer. Why is that?
? How do the birds in the sky and everything between the heavens and the earth (including frogs, termites and trees, for example) perform their ritual prayer? (2441)
? How could the ritual prayer (Solaa-tuka) of Shuaib in 1187 have changed the economic system of the people?
? Why are the same Solaa-waatee in 2238 (?guard your ?Solaa-waatee?) and 9 99 (the Messenger?s Solaa-waatee) understood differently?
? Why are the same words Solaa-waatun in 2157 (ulaa ika alaihim Solaa-waatun) and 2240 (wa Solaa-waatun, wa masaa-jidu) stated with different meanings?
? Is there anyone performing the ?ritual prayer? by controversial talk and rebellion (Solaa-tuhum 'indal baiti mukaan wa tashdiyyan) anywhere in the world? If so, where and how? (835)
? How did the word muSollan (singular) evolve to mean location or place for performing ritual prayer in 2125 when the same word muSollin (plural) is understood as the people who perform the ritual prayer in 1074?peace
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Peace ansi,
The topic of this thread is "Rukk'an and Sujjadan" or maybe you forgot that already ? Early onset Alzheimer's perhaps ? P
The lack of your response to my posts above is extremely obvious.
I never claimed that the words in al-qur'aan derived from the root "SLW" mean "ritual prayer". Please quote me where I have made such a claim. Perhaps you are confusing me with someone else ? I have said in other posts elsewhere that "the timed salaat/connection of the mumineen/muslimeen" is a daily ritual, but never claimed that it was a ritual PRAYER.
The daily ritual understanding was only in reference to the timed salaat/connection of the mumineen/muslimeen and not to other occurrences of various forms of this word in other contexts. Even if the timed salaat of the muslimeen/mumineen involves only reading/reciting (with comprehension) verses from al-qur'aan at specific times of the day, it still makes it a "ritual" but not a "ritual PRAYER".
If you would like to discuss the meanings of the various forms of the root "SLW" you can start a separate thread. I will not respond to any "SLW" related questions from you any further in this thread.
Peace
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Dear Ansi
Ansi How did the word muSollan (singular) evolve to mean location or place for performing ritual prayer in 2125 when the same word muSollin (plural) is understood as the people who perform the ritual prayer in 1074?
I have been having the same issue and added to that "Al Mussalii" in Lanes meaning the one who follows closely (for this meaning there is no quranic support). I am losing friends by asking these questions.
I glanced through the part on ruku sujud on the article you suggested. I notice "fall/fell" missing from the relevant verses.
What is the difference between sujud and sujjadan.
Ceratainly some uses of Sujud means obedience in the Quran but how do you enter a gate obediently ?
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? How did the word muSollan (singular) evolve to mean location or place for performing ritual prayer in 2125 when the same word muSollin (plural) is understood as the people who perform the ritual prayer in 1074?
Has it? "masla" is the noun of place, not "musall'n, which is the singular of musalleen/uun"
Ceratainly some uses of Sujud means obedience in the Quran but how do you enter a gate obediently ?
In fact the question should be How do you enter a gate prostrating? confused
