Not a Muslim?
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Salam Phoenix1,
Yeah, it was. D
And to asnwer back to your comments, I can only say I've never been one to run away from a thing. Maybe that's good or bad, I don't know but that's what it means to me.
I don't get it. Why don't you start by answering my question.
peaceBecause your question answers itself
But do you agree that there are people who may not call themselves muslim, but ARE?
How can someone be something when they do not wish to identify themselves with that certain (some)thing? If someone does not call themselves a muslim, then apparently they, themselves, claim not to be muslims. So how could anyone agree that they are? I would agree that there are plently of righteous people, yes. If that's what you mean.
Phoenix, you appear to in the understanding that one is a Muslim only during the moment when she/he is doing the right thing. Here as you stated
See, we are not perfect. And we are not consistent. Sometimes we do good, sometimes we do bad. We make mistakes. And no matter how much we try, we let ourselves dwell on negative thoughts and emotions. And sometimes we let ourselves lose control of our emotions. We make mistakes, we suffer the consequences, but then we can always come back on track, and enter islam once again.
There is no one on this earth who is a muslim ALL the time in his life. We are bound to lose our way, even for a short while.I respectfully disagree with you on this in regards to the notions being Muslim or not. Allah knows humans are base creatures and yet He is oft Forgiving and Merciful. What you appear to be talking about are temptations, limited free will etc... You can be a Muslim and still make mistakes Phoenix1. A mistake does not make you stop being Muslim. This is why in a reply to Jankern i said, 'Perhaps you're being too hard on yourself or others and possibly both.'
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It's sad to see that good, God fearing people prefer to distance themselves from this beautiful system that God has accepted as a system for us. What hope that it will ever win back its good reputation? And who will correct the misunderstanding of people? It is not the majority of muslims who are crazy. Many wise non-muslims do not generalize and give the silent majority its due respect .
And lilyfleur You blame muslims for not having founded that beautiful charity. Why don't you found it? God gave you much more gifts than millions of other muslims, and I am sure you can.
We will never be good believers if we do not stop measuring our reputation on the scale of the bad deeds committed by others.
However, I agree that those who accepted the message of Muhammad are a small part of the greater muslim community.
Peace Samia,
It's not that I don't believe, or that I want to distance myself from the system. It's just that it's hard to call myself a Muslim, when the majority of Muslims are practicing the faith in such a different way than I am. But yes, you're right, if I don't call myself Muslim, people won't see what the word really means. Perhaps it's just that I don't know what I am because I don't follow hadith, etc..
And as for founding a charity, I'll certainly try. I tried to get involved with a local multi-faith org last year that helps homeless people, but wasn't sure where to turn since they said they had already contacted someone at the local mosque who refused to help (whole churches and synagogues were involved).
Anyway, I'm sorry if I offended anyone. I know the Qur'an is the word of God. I just don't know where that leaves me in so far as what I call myself. It's just that as important as community is, I can't fit into the one called Muslim. So I guess that what I may fit into is one where people believe in doing good works. Cause there seem to be as many people out there who are doing a lot of good who don't categorize themselves and may not even believe in God (or don't know that they do anyway ).
Love and peace,
lilyfleur -
Salaam lilyfleur
I am sorry if you were offended by anything I wrote. But certainly I did not label you, or understood you to be unbeliever. On the contrary, I started my message by this
It's sad to see that good, God fearing people prefer to distance themselves from this beautiful system that God has accepted as a system for us
We are all surrounded by this sombre image of muslims and/or islam, which I do not think is void of a lot of bias. Don't we, ourselves, feel sorry for the state of muslims and muslim countries? We do not have to distance ourselves, though, but by our behaviour people will distance us form any negative opinion they hold for our affiliation, that if they do not requestion their negative view of islam and muslims altogether.
That's what I wanted to say.
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Salam.
At the Regent's Mosque in London, a woman has asked me 3 times if i am a Muslim when i asked for help, when i asked for a place to stay and a job.
Later, two wahabi "muslims" made me say the Fatihah just to make sure i am really a Muslim and one even thought that i was a spy, wired to inflitraste mosque with some hidden agenda.
They do not take me for a Muslim because my name is Alen. Maybe if my name was ..... Mohammed or Adam, maybe they would like me.Who cares, right?
I know where i stand.Peace.
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Peace Mehdi,
How can someone be something when they do not wish to identify themselves with that certain (some)thing? If someone does not call themselves a muslim, then apparently they, themselves, claim not to be muslims. So how could anyone agree that they are? I would agree that there are plently of righteous people, yes. If that's what you mean.
Yes, there are righteous people. And the point I was trying to make was that the arabic word "muslim" isn't significant. What's significant is it's meaning. The concept the word symbolizes is what's important. "God" and "Allah" are two different ways of expressing the same concept. Words have different meanings and connotations for different people. I know people who like to describe themselves as "athiests" simply because they don't believe in "God," who to them means a super human in outer space looking down on us from heaven who controls everything. To you, and me, that word might mean something completely different, so we are believers in God.
Language can be tricky, we can't put too much importance in it. And even beyond language, there is the fact that people can do things differently, take an entirely different path, and end up in the same place. I've seen it happen on the forum when two members have analyzed a verse from two completely different angles and came up with pretty much the same interpretation.
So, I think we need to know what the word "muslim" actually means. I think that it is independent of the Quran, since Ibrahim was muslim. I agree with Ayman and Idolfree that it means "peaceful."
So, I can say that I TRY to be a peaceful person. I WANT to be a peaceful person. Or I AM a peaceful person.
The thing is, (and this is the 'law of attaction' at work here I guess) calling ourselves muslim (whatever the word means to you) means that we are putting ourselves, and imagining ourselves as being our ideal self. Which is a good thing. So, calling ourselves that is not a problem, when we are talking to ourselves.
When someone asks me, "what do you believe?" I will tell them what I believe.
But believing has nothing to do with "muslim." People with totally different beliefs can be peaceful. that's why the believers have a different word to describe them "mumin."
But, again, this is not about what other people may think about my beliefs, but what the word "muslim" actually means and what calling ourselves "muslim," actually amounts to.
Calling ourselves "muslim" or "peaceful" to others is like saying "I'm smart, and I'm better than you are." It sounds arrogant. And stupid. So it is not meant as a title. I think the Quran is a very personal book. It's guidance is meant for the individual, not the masses. I don't see it as a constitution for a perfect community, but as a personal guidebook to a better you, which may result in a better community. So it does not concern itself with what we call ourselves, or how we describe our beliefs to others. That's quite unimportant. But how we describe ourselves to ourselves is important. We can call ourselves muslim if that helps us (does the quran say we are supposed to?)I respectfully disagree with you on this in regards to the notions being Muslim or not. Allah knows humans are base creatures and yet He is oft Forgiving and Merciful. What you appear to be talking about are temptations, limited free will etc... You can be a Muslim and still make mistakes Phoenix1. A mistake does not make you stop being Muslim. This is why in a reply to Jankern i said, 'Perhaps you're being too hard on yourself or others and possibly both.'
If a short child grows up to be a tall adult, would you still call him "shorty?" No.
Would you call an angry person, a calm and peaceful person? No. As you can see quite clearly, if we get into what others think of us, it creates a problem within the quran. Your actions speak louder than words. People will judge you by your actions, not by what you prefer to call yourself. So calling ourself something, and adopting an official title, is useless. Again, it's what you think about and to yourself that really counts. Not what you SAY about yourself to other people.
You are right that one or two mistakes does not mean that you change as a person. But just as a short person can grow taller, you can go from being good to being bad. From being grateful to ungrateful.
Yes, we make mistakes, but the problem with most Muslims is that they say "so what if I did something bad? I'm still a Muslim, I'm still guaranteed heaven or whatever." The word "muslim" becomes a meaningless label that has nothing to do with behavior anymore. It's like the example of the Aqalmands I gave who no matter what they did, thought that they would still succeed.
So when we do something bad, we need to realize that at that point in time, we did do something wrong, we were not muslim. If we had died at that point, we would not have died as muslim as the Quran commands us to. We need to know that it wasn't very muslim of us, and we need to be muslim all the time.
If we could call ourselves muslim and that's it, the quran would never tell us that we shouldn't die except muslim. -
Salaam lilyfleur
I am sorry if you were offended by anything I wrote. But certainly I did not label you, or understood you to be unbeliever. On the contrary, I started my message by this
We are all surrounded by this sombre image of muslims and/or islam, which I do not think is void of a lot of bias. Don't we, ourselves, feel sorry for the state of muslims and muslim countries? We do not have to distance ourselves, though, but by our behaviour people will distance us form any negative opinion they hold for our affiliation, that if they do not requestion their negative view of islam and muslims altogether.
That's what I wanted to say.
Salaam Sister Samia,
No, you didn't offend me at all. I enjoy reading your posts. You are very intelligent and you have a great sense of humor. Take good care of yourself.
Love and peace,
lil -
Salam Phoenix1,
First of all I wanna say I appreciate you sharing your thoughts and views. Also, I like to direct your attention to a thread started days before this one where I said, "Well, meaning others are always busy labeling you, me, him and her. Why not just let them worry about that and we just be Muslims, if we need a label at all." http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13848.0
I do understand where you are coming from, yet I can't stress more the importance of practicality within this issue.
Language is important. We use the medium of language as a form of communication more than any other medium of communication. The word of God came in the form of words! The english language is a utilitarian language. In the english dictionary the word Muslim equates to "an adherent of Islam." To be an adherent of Islam is not saying "I'm smart, and I'm better than you are." This is where you and perhaps others are putting in your own ideas of meanings into it. Once again this is where language and practicality step in and why we have dictionaries to help define words for us in question.
We should not have to sugarcoat things just because someone is an atheist. If we say "Allah" and someone is offended, it is their own thoughts which offend them. To change who we are because the world views Muslims as this and that, aught not concern us. To be an example of what it means to be Muslim what aught to concerns us. And individualy, if we feel we cannot say we are Muslim at every single moment, than that aught to really concern us most! We aught to be patient, and preserve in constancy in who we are instead of running to please others.
If we could call ourselves muslim and that's it, the quran would never tell us that we shouldn't die except muslim.
Allah also says in the Quran that don't think you wont be tested! 2155
peace
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Peace Mehdi,
It seems that you look at this issue as if by not saying the word 'muslim' people are running away or trying to hide who they are. They are scared to side with those who call themselves muslims, because of the views that other people have towards this term. Unfortunately, I don't think this is the case. I actually find it harmful to be using labels to describe oneself. Yes language is an important means of communication, but if it is creating differentiation between people then something needs to be changed. Why not call yourself human when someone asks what you are? It's the same deal with nationality. You might argue that it's fine to tell someone which country you're from. However, I'd argue that this isn't helping humanity one bit, look at all the wars that are started over labels. If people from my country were murdering people from your country, and I told you where I was from then you would necessarily identify me with the murderers. Your view of me would change based on this label. Americans are killed by being identified as American, Palestinians are killed by Israeli's for being labeled as Palestinian. I understand that it's natural for us to want to differentiate ourselves from others, but is this truly helping anyone.You can say that in terms of calling yourself a Muslim you are not trying to differentiate yourself from other people, rather you are identifying with a group of people who you feel share the same values as yourself. This is wishful thinking, because as soon as you feel the need to identify with one group of people you are telling others that you are different from them. Is it anyone's business what your values are? Even if you believe it is, do you completely identify with muslims, or do you practice some of the teachings and not others?
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Salam,
One could also say that it is wishful thinking that if we as a race of humans would remove indentifying labels would fix anything. It's more simple and I believe you are reading too much into it. Words are used to identify things. If you would please read my post above you notice my comment about labels.
Is it anyone's business what your values are?
Since you asked, apparently yes, you are making it so.
Even if you believe it is, do you completely identify with muslims, or do you practice some of the teachings and not others?
I do adhere to Islam, the rest as we see on this board and humanity in general is too wide to use the word "completely". It is as if you are trying to bottle the word Muslim, hence the original reason for this thread. It is a running away from identifying with those "bad" people etc. that caused this thread to be. It could be a solution of some, simply not a solution for me. Once again by definition a Muslim is an adherent of Islam, then I'm Muslim.
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I'm a Muslim.
Perhaps only to those who are ignorant of Islam and what it is to be a Muslim.
The sames chances as those who see Islam as non-positive, non-peaceful starting to lift the veil of their ignorance on what Islam is.
! Stop watching TV and be the change you want to see in the world.
Frankly, that comment is insulting.
Peace M_Mehdi,
Please accept my apology for insulting you. I should have worded that much differently. I am at a place now where it seems that MOST Muslims follow hadith. It also seems that MOST Muslims believe the Quran says it's ok to beat your wife, and to cut off people's hands when they are caught stealing. To me, that is crazy. If I am wrong, and I pray that I am, and MOST Muslims do not believe those things or follow hadith (which in and of themselves, many times, seem to me very irrational) , then I am way off. Would you say that if you polled every person in the world who call themselves Muslim and asked them if a) they follow hadith b) they believe the Quran condones beating your wife and c) it is ok to cut off the hands of a thief, that the majority would say YES to all three questions? My guess would obviously be that they would say yes. Please tell me I'm wrong, I want to be wrong. And as for watching TV, I rarely do, I don't even have cable and usually get my news from NPR which tends to be more unbiased in general or from independent internet sources that aren't bought off by big corporations.
Additionally, to say that I meant that just because a "Muslim prays 5 times per day, reads the Quran, and gives charity is crazy" is not at all what I said, or even meant for that matter. Can you tell me that you have honestly never felt outnumbered by the majority of people calling themselves Muslim who are not of the Quran only mindset and therefore felt as though you aren't really a "Muslim", in the context of what mainstream global society perceives as such?
I'm not afraid of what people think of me. I've always stood up for what I believe in whether the majority of people agreed with me or not. That isn't what this is about. I couldn't be happier that I've found the Quran and that I know that it is the word of God. And frankly, whether another single soul agrees with me or not, I don't care. I've just recently found it hard to put this label of "Muslim" on myself when I don't fit into what MOST think of when they hear the word. Perhaps it's a matter of me misunderstanding the true Arabic meaning of the word. I don't know, I just know I didn't mean to hurt anyone here.
I must admit that I felt sad the day I posted this thread and wish now that I would have just kept to the PM another FM'r responded to me with that was understanding and supportive. All I meant to do was reach out for moral support. It wasn't in anyway my intention to insult anyone. I'm sorry.
LOve and PeAce,
lilyfleur -
Well, it does not matter through what medium you help people and children in particular. There is nothing wrong with participating in a Christian organization. Maybe one day when Lilyfleur already knows all the ropes of running such a charity organization she would found one herself.
By the way, speaking of missionary works, at least they are there to really help even though they also have another religiously motivated intention. It is absolutely way better than not helping at all.
If you are looking for a Muslim charity organization I think LIFE is a good one.
http//www.lifeusa.org/site/PageServerPeace,
Peace Brother Jankren,
Thanks for the link. I will definitely look into it. I really appreciate it.
Peace and love,
lf -
Salam lilyfleur,
Please sis, trust you me, if "I" was insulted I'd be sure to let you know.
So please no need to apologies to me or any individual for that matter.Can you tell me that you have honestly never felt outnumbered by the majority of people calling themselves Muslim who are not of the Quran only mindset and therefore felt as though you aren't really a "Muslim", in the context of what mainstream global society perceives as such?
Yes, I have and not only from "Muslims who are not of the Quran only mindset" but also from Muslims who are, and even those who do not claim to be Muslims though they don't care to be called Muslims and those who are not and don't even like Muslims etc. Yet, that doesn't change that I am a Muslim.
I'm not afraid of what people think of me. I've always stood up for what I believe in whether the majority of people agreed with me or not. That isn't what this is about. I couldn't be happier that I've found the Quran and that I know that it is the word of God. And frankly, whether another single soul agrees with me or not, I don't care. I've just recently found it hard to put this label of "Muslim" on myself when I don't fit into what MOST think of when they hear the word.
Lily, if you are not afraid of what people think of you, then why are you so worried about what "MOST" think when the "hear the word" Muslim?
Perhaps it's a matter of me misunderstanding the true Arabic meaning of the word. I don't know, I just know I didn't mean to hurt anyone here.
Perhaps just starting with the English definition is a good start. And again, don't you go worrying, I don't think you hurt any one.
I must admit that I felt sad the day I posted this thread and wish now that I would have just kept to the PM another FM'r responded to me with that was understanding and supportive. All I meant to do was reach out for moral support. It wasn't in anyway my intention to insult anyone. I'm sorry.
Hey happens to everyone and that's a beautiful thing. Just please make sure you understand too that moral support isn't always in forms of happy, happy, joy, joy understanding and smiles. Moral support, sometimes comes through firmness aswell. jedi
Much love and peace be upon you sis. peace
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Peace Mehdi, thank you for spending your time discussing this with me.
Language is important. We use the medium of language as a form of communication more than any other medium of communication. The word of God came in the form of words! The english language is a utilitarian language. In the english dictionary the word Muslim equates to "an adherent of Islam." To be an adherent of Islam is not saying "I'm smart, and I'm better than you are." This is where you and perhaps others are putting in your own ideas of meanings into it. Once again this is where language and practicality step in and why we have dictionaries to help define words for us in question.
The issue with me, I'll remind you, is not how a person describes their beliefs to others, but how the word muslim is actually used and whether it works as a title or not.
Language is important, but people speak different languages. And even when they speak the same language, every word may have a different connotation to it. To me, the word "fat" doesn't mean much, but to someone else it might be offensive. And there are words like "god" which have a vague dictionary definition and everyone has their own meaning of the word. What I'm saying is, just because I could use a different word, or a different language to describe what amounts to the same thing as you are saying. Not everyone follows the dictionary definition, and even dictionaries sometimes have varying definitions. So, I would say that we should be careful in labelling others, or in actually believing those labels. An athiest might actually understand the concept of a higher power better than some believers in god. It's just that the athiest doesn't see it quite the same way. If we observe their actions, we might not be able to tell which is which. This is not always the case, of course, but it happens.
The word "Muslim" in an english dictionary will always have the definition that english speakers use. Muslim, to most people, is a proper noun, a title for the followers of Islam (another title). What the word actually means in arabic doesn't matter to them. To me, however, it matters.
Meaningless titles anyone can adopt. People can say things they don't really believe. So although taking people's word for something may be convenient at times, it's not the best way to go, and that's not how must people judge others. And that's not how God judges you either. It is your inner thoughts, which manifest into actions, that matter.So, "muslim" is a description of a state of being. It is a person who has acquired the state of islam. One can go in and out of that state. But we must always strive to be in it. That is why the quran commands us not to die except as muslim. That is how the word muslim is used, I believe.
And I have explained above why it doesn't work as a title. And as Peace pointed out, it actually creates disunity. When you create a group, you seperate it from the rest. And seperation breeds conflict.
One may call oneself "muslim" and may not be muslim at all. That's a fact.
So how do you know who really is muslim? You IGNORE the labels and the titles and what they call themselves, and you look at their actions and their behavior. If titles are their to be ignored, then why have them in the first place?We should not have to sugarcoat things just because someone is an atheist. If we say "Allah" and someone is offended, it is their own thoughts which offend them. To change who we are because the world views Muslims as this and that, aught not concern us. To be an example of what it means to be Muslim what aught to concerns us. And individualy, if we feel we cannot say we are Muslim at every single moment, than that aught to really concern us most! We aught to be patient, and preserve in constancy in who we are instead of running to please others.
Agree. And if you thought that I said we should sugarcoat things, I didn't. As I pointed out, muslim has nothing to do with beliefs. It is a state in which you make yourself available to the truth. And the word for those who believe in the truth is "mumin." So if there should be a label at all, it should be mumin and not muslim. Not that I'm saying that should be our title (who is "us" anyway). When it comes to telling others what you believe, or what you are, then tell them, in whatever way you want or can. I don't care. That is a pointless thing to discuss. Because people will always describe themselves in the way they want to describe themselves. You can't change that.
But I do have a problem with people accepting "muslim" as some meaningless label, and then wonder why God doesn't help them. We need to know what it is. We need to understand it, and live it, not just say that we are. -
Salam Phoenix1,
Peace Mehdi, thank you for spending your time discussing this with me.
Likewise! handshake
Language is important, but people speak different languages. And even when they speak the same language, every word may have a different connotation to it. To me, the word "fat" doesn't mean much, but to someone else it might be offensive. And there are words like "god" which have a vague dictionary definition and everyone has their own meaning of the word. What I'm saying is, just because I could use a different word, or a different language to describe what amounts to the same thing as you are saying. Not everyone follows the dictionary definition, and even dictionaries sometimes have varying definitions.
Yes, people speak different languages, however when they learn a new language they aught to strive to learn it correctly. If we were to truely think as you are saying here, then language appears to be a very useless form of communication. But language isn't useless, it's actually very effective if used correctly. I'm glad you brought up the word fat, if you look up the word fat you will see many different uses for it. You notice that it covers being overweight to being wealthy. Muslim however, does not. At least not yet.
So, I would say that we should be careful in labelling others, or in actually believing those labels.
I couldn't agree more. But the issue here seems that others are not liking me labeling myself a Muslim. As you said in so many words that you find it being arrogant.
An athiest might actually understand the concept of a higher power better than some believers in god. It's just that the athiest doesn't see it quite the same way. If we observe their actions, we might not be able to tell which is which.
I understand what you are saying and agree. The person you are describing here is one of the righteous, but not a Believer, Mu'min, or a Muslim, as per 285
The word "Muslim" in an english dictionary will always have the definition that english speakers use.
Not always, just not yet.
Muslim, to most people, is a proper noun, a title for the followers of Islam (another title). What the word actually means in arabic doesn't matter to them. To me, however, it matters.
If it matters to you, then I humbly suggest brother Pheonix that you be in the state of Islam and therefore be a Muslim. Be the example of what the word means to you.
And as Peace pointed out, it actually creates disunity. When you create a group, you seperate it from the rest. And seperation breeds conflict.
This thought process also may lead to the sugarcoating and therefore compromising what is right with wrong. I understand this form of wishful thinking that if all titles, labels, etc etc. were to be removed we as humans would become more united, but this thought process simply does not make sense. If we were to remove all of those things, then perhaps the size of your noise in comparison to anothers may become the issue. Seperation does not breed conflict, intollerance does.
Allah seperates the Believers from the Unbelievers. The Mu'min from the hypocrite. Yes, there is a seperation between right and wrong, good and bad. There is nothing wrong with that. Unity aught to be in righteousness and the righteous do not care if the other is Christian, Jew, Muslim etc. and yet they respect that fact that there are Christians, Jew, Muslims etc.
So how do you know who really is muslim?
Why would I care who "really is muslim?" Why do you care? Once again, what I see here on this thread, is that others are not liking me calling myself a Muslim. It seems, brother, that you keep going in and out of internal and external. You say that Islam and Muslim are state of internal being yet you externalize and want to judge others.
Brother, I truely believe that there are something that require much though and analysis and scrutiny and others that need a more pragmatic outlook. This issue is one of the latter than the former. peace
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peace,
um...LilyFluer didn't actually get the point I was trying to make. Or at least I didn't get that from the post.
Haroon said that "WE" are guaranteed victory. If "WE" are the believers, then who is "WE?"Is it the people who call themselves muslim? can't be because anyone can call themselves muslim.
Is it the people who follow the quran? well, who's version of the quran? who's interpretation and translation? with or without the cod-19? And anyone can claim to follow the quran without actually doing it, like sunnis for example. can't be that one either.
Salaam
Maybe I'm not understanding you correctly but you mentioned whos VERSION or TRANSLATION of the Quran. Just wanted to point out there's only ONE QURAN apart from the Harsh and Warsh versions the message is the same and when it comes to translation God Almighty has covered that issue. God explains some verses are metaphorical and some verses literal and the literal are the law giving verses and they are the essence of the Book so we can't use TRANSLATION as an excuse. Sorry to have a dig and but ive read quite a few posts where people mention the interpretation or translation being an issue but when it comes to following law verses they got no excuse because they're presented very clearly in the Quran.
My 2 cents about muslim label i do believe it to be a descriptive term. But if someone does say they are a muslim(submitter) then whats the issue??If someone says to me there peaceful in let's say urdu then my instinct notion would be to see if that is the case with the actions of that person.
PEACE
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peace Mehdi,
I understand what you are saying and agree. The person you are describing here is one of the righteous, but not a Believer, Mu'min, or a Muslim, as per 285
My example can be used for a righteous person or a muslim or mumin person.
If it matters to you, then I humbly suggest brother Pheonix that you be in the state of Islam and therefore be a Muslim. Be the example of what the word means to you.
I try my best.
This thought process also may lead to the sugarcoating and therefore compromising what is right with wrong. I understand this form of wishful thinking that if all titles, labels, etc etc. were to be removed we as humans would become more united, but this thought process simply does not make sense. If we were to remove all of those things, then perhaps the size of your noise in comparison to anothers may become the issue. Seperation does not breed conflict, intollerance does.
What I mean is, seperation based on labels is not a good thing. Labels are superficial. We seperate people according to the deeds they do, according to the way they act, not by what they call themselves. That was my point, and I'm sure you agree.
Why would I care who "really is muslim?" Why do you care? Once again, what I see here on this thread, is that others are not liking me calling myself a Muslim. It seems, brother, that you keep going in and out of internal and external. You say that Islam and Muslim are state of internal being yet you externalize and want to judge others.
Well, the thing is, you are saying that it is meant for external use. That we are to call ourselves muslims so that others will know our position. I am saying that it doesn't work. I am saying that it is meant for us as individuals.
I said it doesn't work because we don't judge others by their names, but by their actions.
Anyway, I think I've explained my position as much as I could, so until I find a better way to put my thoughts into words, I'll leave it at that.
I believe we are NOT part of a group. We are individuals. Seperate from everyone else. We must live together, but our guidance is individual. You may disagree, and you don't even have to be respectful about it.Brother, I truely believe that there are something that require much though and analysis and scrutiny and others that need a more pragmatic outlook. This issue is one of the latter than the former.
Practicality in what? in telling others who we are? How can that ever be impractical?
I said that labels are not what actually describe you. It is your thoughts and actions. That's how we should judge people, not by their labels. So why would the quran give us a label, if we are supposed to ignore them?
Anyone can call themselves "smart," but only the people who act smart are the smart ones. In the same way, everyone can call themselves "muslim," but again it comes down to what you do, not what you say. So that renders your label useless.
It is more practical to ignore labels than to believe them and use them.
But I guess arguing about this is futile if we don't agree on what the word "muslim" actually means.