Adultery
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Dear warner
we have to keep the following points in mind ;
If you go through all the relevent verses, you will find , that Zina or Zani qualifies with the word 4 witnesses only, and when somebody has been established as a Zani , he/she should be whipped publically and only be married to a similar category, or with a non believer.
In rest of the verses , the word accusation is used ,and this accusation could be any thing short of 4 witnesses for any kind of illegal sex , Quran does not use the word accusation for Zina, because any such act would qualify to be "Zina", only when there are 4 witnesses and then it would be no more an accusation.
Even in the verses of spouse, "accusation" is used , not Zina, and God does not say that "if they cant bring four witnesses" but says 'without any witness except their own', and when the truth is established after sworn testimonies, the accused is not labeled as Zani , and no where it is commanded that she/he should be whipped 100 lashes, or be given punishment for Zina. It is been probably left to court /husband/family to take any appropriate actionNote in 24-4 the women is still a "Mohsinnat" till she is proved as a Zani by 4 witnesses.
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peace
siki
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Peace Siki
I didn?t quite get you in certain parts of your post.
Do you think athaab in 248 is referring to a different punishment other than the athaab mentioned in 242.
The verses which use the word zina does not mention 4 witnesses either but we are expected to understand from the other verses it is so.
Bringing the accusation is same in both verses. And in 244 is given the requirement of 4 witnesses.
244 Wal lazina yarmu_nal muhsana_
246 Wal lazina yarmu_na azwa_jahum
There is a difference between a spouse accusing the other and a third party accusing a man or a woman.
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Peace Siki
You must give credit to the eloquent and precise language of the Quran to convey the exact meaning of the verse without being too wordy.
Let me try with an example
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There were no other witnesses to the theft other than Siki.
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Siki can not produce any other witness to the theft because he is the only witness.
Which is better?
Which is correct?Obviously Siki can not produce other witnesses since Siki is the only witness.
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Peace Phoenix
Quraan doe not mention public sex.
phoenix 1
I agree with warner here, we have been careless in using this word public sex. Zina is not public sex, but an unauthorized sexual act , which while being committed is witnessed by 4 people. If a husband and wife are witnessed by 4 people , i don't think they would qualify for 100 lashes.
peace
siki -
Dear warner
Adhaab' is general word for punishment , it could be any punishment . It could be 100 lashes as per 24-2 or even a confinement as per 4-15, when the proper charge of inter course cannot be proved and hence the women in 4-15 do not qualify as Zani. but is proved beyond doubt as lewd, and need restraining. When ever the accusation (sexual act) is proved by 4 witnesses, then it is most definitely the couple which has been witnessed, so see the next verse , 4-16 which calls them "Zanee".
I agree, there are still holes in our understanding, and we need to plug them, we are inching forward and Inshall ah we shall be able to reach a better understanding.
peace
siki -
Peace Siki
You must give credit to the eloquent and precise language of the Quran to convey the exact meaning of the verse without being too wordy.
Let me try with an example
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There were no other witnesses to the theft other than Siki.
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Siki can not produce any other witness to the theft because he is the only witness.
Which is better?
Which is correct?Obviously Siki can not produce other witnesses since Siki is the only witness.
Applying the same sworn testimonies formula for a sole witness ,other than your own spouse, why not ?
peace
siki
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Peace Siki
Does 415 or 16 say Athaab.
In the context of the verses in Chapter 24 from 241 to 26 you can understand it is connected to a single subject, albeit broad. And 241 to 10 are on the same subject and these are legal verses. Isn?t it common sense the athaab in 248 is connected to 242?
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Peace warner
I mean if there is a sole witness other than spouse, and he can solemnly affirm , then why doesn't that qualify her/him to be a zani ? why this exception? so i think swearing of spouse , does not make her/him Zani, and hence can not be given the punishment prescribed for "Zaneeis"
peace
siki
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Peace bro "phoenix",
Sex in front of 4 or more people IS public sex. How is it any different?
JK- 1) the Quran doesnt say that there have to be four simultaneous eye witnesses. One could be having sexual relations and witnessed firt by one, then a second, third and then fourth witness separetly and later they may all testify. So its not necessarily public. 2) four witnesses does NOT necessary mean direct eye witnesses of the event but could also be applied to indepenedent witnesses of DNA tests and/or other facts which solidly indicate that the event took place. GOD Bless!
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Peace
Why does Allah want 4 witnesses?
Otherwise they are liers in the eyes of God .
What if there are 3 witnesses who are telling the truth and they can?t find a fourth witness? 244 expects us to whip them 80 times??
It is a serious charge, so serious that God's curse is on the lier even if the guilty party does get off .
Are the lashes suppose to be severe or symbolic?
I'm not sure. I think they are to be held literally at first until further evidence clearly suggests otherwise. In any case God suggests you not let pity keep you fro your duty in the matter .
P.S. I also believe if you read further on in the following verses that you will see that the mumin are in a position where they are not adulters or adulteresses and thus do not have sexual relations in such ways and given the benefit of a doubt by their family, that is the community of believers . Other conditions are spoken of in these passages such as people seeking to incite such evil charges.
Joe
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Cheers Joe.
24/13 Only if they produced four witnesses (you may believe them). If they fail to produce the witnesses, then they are, according to GOD, liars. - Khalifa translation
I can?t believe how absurd this is, if me X and Y saw Z committing adultery ~ and we grassed Z ~ but we can?t find a fourth witness ~ and Z?s spouse refused to believe us, then me X and Y get 80 lashes (!!) and Z is let off scott free?? I can?t even begin to think how irrational/unjust this is.
Adultery is a private matter, exposing the problem only gives people something to gossip about; and those nasty people that take pleasure from other people?s pain would just love something like that.
And exactly which puppet is gonna whip me, X and Y for telling the truth &?
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Considering the wisdom of the Quran I find the above out of touch hypno, and certainly not something an all wise creator would command ???.
Would it be better to take the above metaphorically and not a literal commandment? tempt A metaphor reflecting the utter seriousness of the sin? tempt Or is that interpretation way too heretical or silly for some of you? >D
peace
peace -
Peace Be Upon You All
This is a very thought provoking thread, thank you sis Angel
I wonder if any of you have questioned why we hit each other violently in such an inhumane manner as getting whipped because someone disrupted the moral fabric of society.
I believe in keeping chaste because it is better for our souls and prevents any additional impure programs entering into our minds. It is what is prescribed for us and there is alot of wisdom in leading a chaste life.
My problem is similar to sis Angel in that it is seemingly barbaric to be wipping people for a sin committed. I would think entering into some therapuetic coaching to re-program the person back to a healthy state, perhaps some type of confinement, or obligation to do community work for a set period of time would serve the guilty couple better ...
People seem to be really hung up on the beauty of 4 witnesses to ensure that innocent people don't get wipped and I didn't see any discussion on why we're wipping people to begin with ...
As questioned by sis Angel in another thread, and I think very cleverly, how many of you would be able to actually carry this law out? How many of you would really be capable of wipping someone regardless of your stance on the crime was. To me adultery is a very grave wrong but I have a problem with the desensitization that occurs when we physically whip someone and justifying it as OK to physically harm another.
I know alot of egyptians and i know that the overwhelming majority of them would say that this is a very uncivilized and barbaric rule that should be substituted for something similar in severity but dissimilar in that nobody gets physically assaulted by another. In egypt the laws for adultery is jail time; although the laws are flawed in other ways. But the point is that perhaps we need to revisit the point of the commandment in a broader sense.
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Peace sis "angel",
- The verse if for the protection of chaste women and that one dare not blame them without solid evidene. 2) "shuhadaa" does not necessarily mean four EYE witnesses but can refer to four independent lines of inquiry all suggesting/giving evidence tht the accused is guilty and in that sense each proof acts as a witness itself. GOD Bless!
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Peace Boost, Angel, all,
Sometimes I get frustrated that people are not careful with The God's words and assume something on their own and then write entire posts based on that assumption whereas it is nowhere to be found in The God's words.
Where does it mention about severity of lashes ? brickwall
If the severity is not mentioned, would that not be indicative of the public shaming aspect of the punishment ? !
This has already been discussed here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13165.0