Homosexuality and Islam

nerspi

The word "khamr" includes drugs, and is not limited to alcohol. The meaning of the word "khamr" ( root &#1585 is a "cover" or "veil". So, any substance which casues the mind to be "veiled" or "covered" is called "kahmr", wether it is alcohol, hashish, cocaine, or whatever....

Of course the Quran doesn't say that "KHAMR" is forbidden, because the tone of the verse is one of advice and not strict prohibition.

didn't know about the drugs thing, but i'm glad it says something. even if it's not a direct prohibition but we all know that drugs and alcohol are bad for us. i also think that about homosexuality, but hey that's me.

Angel

What i can?t understand is why Allah makes people gay and then expects them not to react to their emotions ???. These people don?t choose to be like that.

peace

Nurd

What i can?t understand is why Allah makes people gay and then expects them not to react to their emotions ???. These people don?t choose to be like that.

Oddly enough, the problem most people have and that most people believe is the "sinful" part of homosexuality is the sexual part. It's not so much a problem of who you love or were born to love, it's acting on that impulse that gives people problems.. I'm not terribly sure why..

Peace,

jonny_k

Peace "angel",

Peace be upon you.

LOL ;D

I didn?t know that. ;D

JK- Well now you do. )

But it?s quite sexist innit? P

JK- Im a man and i din find it sexist at all.

As for anal sex, MANY heterosexual couples indulge in it too, if Allah wanted to prohibit anal sex why didn?t he say so?

JK- This is a little difficult qs. Apparently GOD didnt want to infer to this specifically and we can sense this subtly from the following verse
... you may have intercourse with them(the women) in the manner designed by GOD. GOD loves the repenters, and He loves those who are clean."
This indicates that anal sex is not correct and your right it doesnt make sense that GOD condemn male hs on one hand and then there should be no problem with having anal sex with ones wife, unless one si to assume that a woman's anus is much cleaner than a man's which does not make any sense.

And there are many gay men that don?t have sex.

JK- Thts why the verses say those men who PRATICE sex with other men isntead of women are condemned. It doesnt say those who have a mere tendency to be so. Those on the other hand may even be more rewarded for depsite having such feelings, which are bound to occur more or less in every human because of the highly volatile nature of the human psyche, they didnt indulge in such activities. GOD Bless!

nerspi

What i cant understand is why Allah makes people gay and then expects them not to react to their emotions ???. These people dont choose to be like that.

peace

i don't know any gay people, i don't know how they become gay but i'm sure Allah doesn't make them gay and then tell Lot to leave town 'cause they will be punished.

how did you come to the conclusion that Allah makes people gay?

Nurd

BOTH male AND female homosexuality are mentioned in the Quran

{And those women who commit lewdness, you shall bring four witnesses over them from amongst you; if they bear witness, then you shall restrict them in the homes until death terminates their lives, or God makes for them a way out.
And the two men who commit it from amongst you, then you shall punish them. If they repent and amend, then leave them alone. God is Redeemer, Merciful.}

I don't think this has anything to do with homosexuality. When I read this, it makes more sense to think of it as Prostitution. Those women who commit lewdness (are prostitutes), you shall bring 4 witnesses over them from amongst you.

And as far as the two men go, though the masculine dual is used here, it doesn't necessarily mean two men, it can mean a man and a woman as any group that contains men is automatically masculine. So this is clarifying that if a man and a woman are caught in the act of being and soliciting the prostitute that they are both to be punished.

Of course that is my own interpretation and any are free to disagree ;D handshake

Nurd

Angel

peace be upon you,

I agree with Nurd.

i don't know any gay people, i don't know how they become gay but i'm sure Allah doesn't make them gay and then tell Lot to leave town 'cause they will be punished.

how did you come to the conclusion that Allah makes people gay?

Trust me people do not choose to be gay.

While I agree that some people just like experimenting with the opposite sex because they?re a bunch of scrubbers (like some of the kids I knew at school) there are some that can?t help it. If someone told you to stop fancying women, could you? No you would not be able to, now that?s what it?s like with these people they can?t stop that.

siddiq_atl

2754- And Lot, when he said to his people "Are you committing lewdness while you can clearly see?"

2755-"You are approaching the men out of lust instead of the women! No, you are an ignorant people!"

2756- But the reply of his people was that they said "Expel the family of Lot from your town, for they are a people who are being pure!"

2757- So We saved him and his family, except for his wife, for We found her to be of those who will remain.

2758- And We rained down a rain upon them. Miserable was the rain of those warned.

2759- Say "Praise be to God, and peace be upon His servants whom He has selected." Is God better, or that which you set up?

The Fading "Gay Gene"
http//www.narth.com/docs/fading.html

The Boston Globe published an article on February 7, 1999 which was reprinted by permission in the April 1999 NARTH Bulletin. It is an important article because it contributes to the growing body of evidence that homosexuality is not simply "genetic."
Serious scientists have long known that a simply "genetic" cause for homosexuality was highly unlikely, but the mass media conveyed the misimpression of genetic causation to the general public. In the Globe article, prominent researchers admit the distinct limitations of the "born that way" theory.

"Gay gene" researcher Dean Hamer comments, "It is the same for every human behavior--environment matters for extroversion, smoking cigarettes, just about anything you can name."

Interestingly, Dr. Hamer--himself a gay man--adds that science remains "just as clueless" as ever about the environmental influences on homosexuality. Dr. Hamer's statement is consistent with a position taken by most gay advocates, who flatly deny the existence of evidence that points to certain family and social influences on homosexuality. (Gay advocates almost invariably either say "I was born that way," or "How I became gay doesn't matter.&quot Only prominent gay writer Andrew Sullivan has publicly given credence to the Freudian model of homosexual development.

palestina

peace all,

i have been wondering about homosexuality for a while now and here are some of my notes i had collected... i agree with angel in that i do not believe it is a choice... why would someone choose to be gay and risk losing their friends, family, become a target for hate crime etc? It is an instinct - they just find the same sex attractive.

The quranic verses regarding Lot
780-82
2752-56
1178-79
26160-167
2174
2928-29; 43
3814

Also
Chapter 50 talks about deniers and mentions the ?brethren of Lot? (5013)
And again in 5333 ?the people of Lot rejected the warners?
And 2245 ?and how many a town have we destroyed while it was doing wrong??
6610 God puts forth examples of those who have rejected, the wife of Noah and the wife of Lot?

So i think Lots people were not only punished for homosexuality but also for doing wrong ie. Includes vice and highway robbery as per 2929, and corruption (2114) and promiscuity..
And moreover for rejecting the truth once it had been presented to them?.

Now these verses are more ambiguous ? as they are not referring to Lots people, but about women and men who commit ?lewdness? which can be anything from sexual promisicuity, fornication, same sex relationships etc?.

415 And those women who commit lewdness, you shall bring four witnesses over them from amongst you; if they bear witness, then you shall restrict them in the homes until death takes them, or God makes for them a way out.
416 And the two men who commit it from amongst you, then you shall punish them. If they repent and amend, then leave them alone. God is Redeemer, Merciful.
417 Repentance is only for those who commit sin out of ignorance and then repent soon after; these will be forgiven by God, God is Knowledgeable, Wise.

I do think the arabic here means 2 men - and not a man and woman since verse 15 deals only with women, it would be a more natural reading that the next is talking about men. But feel free to disagree.

As for homosexuality itself ? it is seen as wrong and a ?transgression? ( or ?a lewdness?) because of 2 things

1 approach the men with desire/lust instead of women when sex primarily is for reproduction ? same sex relationships cannot fulfil this role
1672 And God has made for you mates from amongst yourselves, and He has made from your mates children and grandchildren, and He has provided you from the good provisions. Do they believe in falsehood, while in God?s favour they are denying?

2 the issue also is regarding anal sex/sodomy ? it is not allowed regardless of who is doing it (man+man or woman+man)

I will also add
it is also condemned in the story of Lots people, and so they were punished by wiping out the whole town because everyone/the vast majority there was homosexual it seems? I have never heard of this happening elsewhere or at any other time ? so maybe that is also a bigger issue ? if you cannot control your urges then do it in the privacy of your own home ? husband and wife are not supposed to discuss their sexual activities so neither should others if they are going to swing that way ? leave the matter between them and God as He is the most just judge.

And some argue that homosexuality goes against nature
Animals have been shown to have homosexual sex - however......
1 Animals have instincts but no reason or revelation, thus NO CONTROL. Humans have instincts which could be bad or good, but they have been given reason and revelation also. The reason gives them free-choice to act upon their instincts or not, thus humans have CONTROL and can refrain. The revelation guides the reason.
2 I do not believe that any animal is homosexual ? it might be involved in homosexual sex, but it is not repelled by the opposite sex; and is not only attracted to its own ? like gays claim? so maybe all humans can have an instinct to be attracted to both sexes ? however same sex relations are not recommended because we as humans have the capacity to choose. We cannot take animals as our guide to correct behaviour.

And as for those who claim it is a natural instinct from god and so it is not about ?choice? then what about people have urges to cheat on their partners? Is that ok because it is an instinct? What about those who are into bestiality? They are turned on by animals and find sexual gratification in that.. is that ok too? And those who have incestuous relationships? Is that ok because they are in love and attracted to one another? Or are these all forms of ?transgression? which ultimately harm a society? Where do you draw the line?

and im still figuring things out because its a toughie!

peace all

Rumi

peace be upon you,

I agree with Nurd.

Trust me people do not choose to be gay.

I agree, I think there is no choice involved. Just like it has never been a matter of choice for me to be attracted to women, I just am. There was no conscious, self aware, decision making involved in it. There was no choosing which I sex I fancy more, which I am more attracted to. I had no control, I cannot even try or force it upon myself to be attracted to guys, to be a homosexual. From the gay friends that I have, they tell me that they too have no choice in it, the same way I've illustrated, if what they says is true, than there is no choice for them also. If it was a lie though, homosexuals have some remote choice, this would be the perfect excuse for their transgression, the whole "I can't help myself" has been used for pedophiles, murderers, nasty people to justify their actions. For now though, I'm giving homosexuals the benefit of the doubt, they had no choice.

Whilst it might not be genetic predisposition to homosexuality, the environmental factors playing a bigger role, there still is no choice, even amongst the parents of these gay individuals.

That said, ONLY if there is no choice and if the homosexual relationship is not sexual and lustful in nature, i.e. the men are able to control their nafs, this would arise to a situation where 2 men simply love each other. Are there verses against this???

Rumi

I agree, I think there is no choice involved. Just like it has never been a matter of choice for me to be attracted to women, I just am. There was no conscious, self aware, decision making involved in it. There was no choosing which I sex I fancy more, which I am more attracted to. I had no control, I cannot even try or force it upon myself to be attracted to guys, to be a homosexual. From the gay friends that I have, they tell me that they too have no choice in it, the same way I've illustrated, if what they says is true, than there is no choice for them also. If it was a lie though, homosexuals have some remote choice, this would be the perfect excuse for their transgression, the whole "I can't help myself" has been used for pedophiles, murderers, nasty people to justify their actions. For now, I'm giving homosexuals the benefit of the doubt, they have no choice, though unless you are a homosexual there is no way of knowing for sure about it.

Whilst it might not be genetic predisposition to homosexuality, the environmental factors playing a bigger role, there still is no choice, even amongst the parents of these gay individuals.

That said, ONLY if there is no choice and if the homosexual relationship is not sexual and lustful in nature, i.e. the men are able to control their nafs, this would arise to a situation where 2 men simply love each other. Are there verses against this???

Angel

Peace be upon you,

lol Rumi whats with the double post?

And as for those who claim it is a natural instinct from god and so it is not about ?choice? then what about people have urges to cheat on their partners?

If one wants to cheat on their spouse then there is obviously some problem with the marriage. Such as?

Got married too young/fast and now regrets it
Got bored
Partner is not great in the bedroom (a surprisingly common problem which makes many people want to have an affair)
Put commitment before compatibility
Not enough emotional support from spouse
Spark ran out
Partner is a pervert and wants many sexual partners
Made the wrong choice
Found someone better

1, 4, 8, 9 is partially their own fault, they should have been more wiser when choosing someone who they plan to spend the rest of their live with.

2, 6, then you need ideas to spice things up.

3, more time and practice is required, after all practice makes perfect

5, Need to spend more time with each other, go one more dates too.

7, leave the freak!

Is that ok because it is an instinct?

No because you are hurting/betraying your partner while you are doing that. Gay people wont be betraying any person.

What about those who are into bestiality?

Poor animals!

They are turned on by animals and find sexual gratification in that.. is that ok too?

No because they are violating animal rights (assuming animals have rights?)

And those who have incestuous relationships?

they will end up having deformed kids.

Or are these all forms of ?transgression? which ultimately harm a society?

I?m sorry but I can?t see homosexuality being a problem.

Where do you draw the line?

But I honestly can?t see why homosexuality is a problem, as long as they don?t have anal sex (as many gay men don?t) then they are no harm to society.

peace

palestina

peace angel,

i tend to agree with you - these were just some thoughts i came up with and arguments i heard when i asked about homsexuality....

I also do not believe it is a choice to make - it would be like telling me to suddenly have to find women sexually attractive because the "norm" of a society is lesbianism so i shouldnt be straight... it is just what comes naturally to a person. That is why im finding it hard to grasp in light of the quran.

But then Lots people were punished - and one of the factors for the punishment was the homosexual sex. I think however in this case (like i said in my earlier post) was that it became so widespread that it wasnt that people had no choice - but they wanted to live that lifestyle - and to force others participate too (the visitors who came to the town).... that is why it is condemned here - it became a fahisha/illegal sex/lust issue rather than the homosexual aspect....

And therefore maybe verses 415-16 are indeed referring to prositutes and illegal sex respectively because it makes sense to restrict a prostitute in her home till she repents....

Another point
780 And Lot, he said to his people Do you commit lewdness such as none of those of the worlds had done before?
781 You come to men with desire instead of women; you are a transgressing people.
782 The only response of his people was Drive them out of your town; they are a people who wish to be pure!

There were no homosexuals before Lots people?
The response of the people was "they are a people who wish to be pure" so is homosexuality impure?
Coming to men with desire instead of women.... so it was gay issue and not a lesbian issue? The verse doesnt say you come to the same gender with lust - but you come to men instead of women....

26165 Do you approach the males of the worlds?
27166 And you leave what your Lord has created for you of mates? You are an intrusive people!

Maybe the issue was that there were so many women left without partners because homosexuality in Lots town was so widespread?

I dont know - like i say im still working my way through this one!

Samia

But I honestly can?t see why homosexuality is a problem, as long as they don?t have anal sex (as many gay men don?t) then they are no harm to society.|

I think nobody sees any problem, then

unknownuser

Salam,

Obedience to Allah is not questioning his instructions or deciding that because you can not see the harm in one of his instructions that you can dismiss it and form your own path.

Following the straight path and being a submitter is submitting to Allah even if you don't always understand.

Salam,
Arnab

Angel

If Allah is all wise then I?m sure he won?t mind me questioning his laws .

salaam
peace

palestina

I think the bigger issue with homosexuality is the long term effects on a society also - eg. gay parenting etc?

But then in a society like the one we live in - with many kids not growing up in a stable family environment, who are we to judge - isnt it better to have two loving daddies and no mummy (or vice versa), than only one loving parent?

Nurd

I think the bigger issue with homosexuality is the long term effects on a society also - eg. gay parenting etc?

But then in a society like the one we live in - with many kids not growing up in a stable family environment, who are we to judge - isnt it better to have two loving daddies and no mummy (or vice versa), than only one loving parent?

Or no loving parents at all.. Better to have gay parents than go without or live in an abusive household. Besides children of gay parents are rarely gay themselves. So we know it's not a socially passed on thing in that aspect.

Rumi

Peace be upon you,

lol Rumi whats with the double post?

Salams,

Sorry Angel, I'm new at this. Just starting to explore the forum. I think this is the second time I've accidentally done a double post. My apologies dear.

Peace.

palestina

Or no loving parents at all.. Better to have gay parents than go without or live in an abusive household. Besides children of gay parents are rarely gay themselves. So we know it's not a socially passed on thing in that aspect.

Yes but I meant that kids learn different things from their relationships with their parents - there is a harmony with having a mum and a dad... eg. kids with a good relationship with their father learn empathy at a younger age to those who are not so close or who have no father.

But then thats off topic because its not only a gay parent issue, but just the way society and families are now.....