Muhammad Wrote the quran
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yes?
http//free-islam.com/extraimages/dismissed.gif
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What kind of pointless debate is this???
Nuun, wal qalam-u wa maa yasturuun! Maaa anta bini'mati rabbika bi majnuun!!!
Why mention the inkpot and pen if the prophet could not write? Or is this an interactive dialogue while he wrote these words down on parchment himself?
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What kind of pointless debate is this???
Nuun, wal qalam-u wa maa yasturuun! Maaa anta bini'mati rabbika bi majnuun!!!
Why mention the inkpot and pen if the prophet could not write? Or is this an interactive dialogue while he wrote these words down on parchment himself?
hmmm, did the verse say the prophet wrote the Quran?
No it did not, the verse talks about the angels not Mohammad and not even the Quran that is been written
to be honest it is what you said that was pointless, can you see how pointless it was?
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Ahmad, this seems like an interactive process of revelation... if you don't agree, then you don't agree. It's simple
then tell yourself to agree to disagree and not call a 14 page serious debate as pointless
can you see where you got it wrong again?
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then tell yourself to agree to disagree and not call a 14 page serious debate as pointless
can you see where you got it wrong again?
Did I say the whole 14 page debate was pointless? I am talking about these recent posts... haven't you figured out that people (yourself included) are now agreeing to disagree?
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peace Ahmed,
I guess you are trying to show that I was questioning God in that post. I wasn't. Well, I was, but I was questioning YOUR concept of God.
I don't have a problem with what God says, but I'm asking, what is God actually saying?
If you don't want to discuss this, then fine by me. -
Peace all,
Part of the problem, perhaps, is that we have deviated the topic, the thread and even the section. It would be easier for everyone if these questions were adressed in the critical examination section maybe.
If anyone has further points of discussion, please continue... welcome
peace
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peace Ahmed,
Salam Waleed
I guess you are trying to show that I was questioning God in that post.
of course you are
I wasn't.
you must be confused then, or how aout NOT SURE?
Well, I was,
See, you are not sure
but I was questioning YOUR concept of God.
My concept of God !!., funny
Well, I have no concept of God other than what the God said about Himself in His Quran
Now the God said in His Quran, HE DOES WHAT HE WANTS AND HE CAN"T BE QUESTIONED
so my so called concept of God was 100% based on that, i.e. all the answers to you silly quesions are really one answer, THIS IS WHAT THE GOD WANTS AND THIS IS WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN REGARDLESS WE LIKE IT OR NOT
I don't have a problem with what God says,
hmmm, I told you, you must be confused
but I'm asking, what is God actually saying?
what the God is saying regarding His actions is crystal clear THIS IS WHAT THE GOD WANTS AND THIS IS WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN REGARDLESS WE LIKE IT OR NOT
If you don't want to discuss this, then fine by me.
well, I don't want to waste my time with those who are in doubt and are not sure, I would like to debate the firm believers regarding some issues in the Quran that they believe in, I consider you exactly as a member on FFI and I had enough of your non sense really
Cheers
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"my concept of god is correct and any concepts which deviate from mine are therefore incorrect"
"well i don't know if it's because god says so, but i think in this manner because i interpreted it that way so i said god says so"
questioning what people say about god is not the same as questioning god... and if we didn't question god where would we be anyways? as though god wishes servants to be stoic robots anyways.
at least lobster isn't blindly following conjectures... he is asking questions every step of the way along his path... i wonder if god will approve "someone told me god said so so i accepted it" over "i asked questions every step of the way and did what i felt was best at the time with the knowledge i had"
We already know what this quran is saying. It is only a reminder. God's book is this universe.
(italics mine)
if people are ignoring or misunderstanding or trashing you it's because you are either crazy or on the right track... pick one P
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"my concept of god is correct and any concepts which deviate from mine are therefore incorrect"
"well i don't know if it's because god says so, but i think in this manner because i interpreted it that way so i said god says so"
Right, first of all, Ahmed is using clear verses to answer Phoenix's questions; distorting what he's saying cannot prove what you're implying or defame him, using your little technique (far be it for me to put words into other peoples mouths but I've noticed you have no problem with that) Ahmed is simply saying 'My concept of God is what he clearly states in the Qur'an'.
at least lobster isn't blindly following conjectures...
Are you implying that Ahmed is following conjectures? Because all I've ever seen him using are verses from the Qur'an, is that what value you place on them?
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peace
2140 "Do you claim that Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and their descendants were
Jews' orChristians'?" Say "Do you know more than God does? And who could be more wicked than he who suppresses a testimony given to him by God? Yet God is not unmindful of what you do.This verse clearly says that the people who call themselves "Jews" and "Christians" are not the decendents of Abraham. What does this mean?
26197 Is it not evidence enough for them that learned men from among the children of Israel have recognized this ?
So, the children of isreal (whoever they are_ recognize God's true revelations. But they aren't the Jews? hmm...
675 And thus We gave Abraham insight into mighty dominion over the heavens and the earth - and to the end that he might become one of those who are inwardly sure.
673 And
He it is who has created the heavens and the earth in accordance with truth- and whenever He says, "Be," His word comes true; and His will be the dominion on the Day when the trumpet is blown. He knows all that is beyond the reach of a created being's perception, as well as all that can be witnessed by a creature's senses or mind for He alone is truly wise, all-aware.
In 673, it says that God created the universe in accordance to the TRUTH. And how did Abraham find the truth, how was he inspired? Not by a book, but by studying the heavens and the earth. In the verses after 675, Abraham is looking at the sky (the stars, moon, sun), he makes guesses, but then finds out he is wrong (a few times), but it is the universe he is studying. Not a book.
4163 BEHOLD, We have inspired thee just as We inspired Noah and all the prophets after him - as We inspired Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and their descendants, including Jesus and Job, and Jonah, and Aaron, and Solomon; and as We vouchsafed unto David a book of divine wisdom;
What is the book of divine wisdom? Well, did Abraham get inspired by a book like the quran? No. So it can't be a book. It is the heavens and the earth.
And guess what, look at 4162, which talks about knowledgeble people.4162 But as for those from among them who are deeply rooted in knowledge, and the believers who believe in that which has been bestowed upon thee from on high as well as that which was bestowed from on high before thee, and those who are constant in prayer, and spend in charity, and all who believe in God and the Last Day - these it is unto whom We shall grant a mighty reward.
It is the people who are deeply rooted in knowledge that God has inspired just like the prophets before him.
I posted 26197, well here's 26190-196
26190 In this , behold, there is a message , even though most of them will not believe .
I think the word "ayah" is translated as "story" here, can someone make sure for me?
26191 But, verily, thy Sustainer - He alone - is almighty, a dispenser of grace!
26192 Now, behold, this has indeed been bestowed from on high by the Sustainer of all the worlds 26193 trustworthy divine inspiration has alighted with it from on highIt keeps saying that truth and inspiration comes from "on high." What is "on high?" Is it the sky? I doubt it. I've never seen anything useful fall from the sky. I think it's talking about a higher mental state.
Again, it's not a book.26194 upon thy heart, so that thou mayest be among those who preach
26195 in the clear Arabic tongue.Ayman has argued that "arabic" is not a proper noun there, but just a word for "clear."
So it's a clear language.
the quran is hardly clear language.26196 And, verily, this is indeed found in the ancient books of divine wisdom .
So, the essence of this revelation can be found in ancient books of divine wisdom?
The fact is that the quran gives us "truths we already possess." We already know what is in it. And it is a message as old as mankind itself. It's been written down in books like the quran a million times before. The message is the same.2101 And when there has come unto them an apostle from God, confirming the truth already in their possession, some of those who were granted revelation aforetime cast the divine writ behind their backs as though unaware ,
4153 In time We shall make them fully understand Our messages in the utmost horizons and within them?selves, so that it will become clear unto them that this is indeed the truth. is it not enough that thy Sustainer is witness unto everything?
Once again, people will understand the message in the utmost horizons of the universe and within ourselves. Not in a book.
2164 Verily, in the creation of the heavens and of the earth, and the succession of night and day and in the ships that speed through the sea with what is useful to man and in the waters which God sends down from the sky, giving life thereby to the earth after it had, been lifeless, and causing all manner of living creatures to multiply thereon and in the change of the winds, and the clouds that run their appointed courses between sky and earth there are messages indeed for people who use their reason.
yet again, messages for people in the sky and earth. No book is mentioned.
3190 Verily, in the creation of the heavens and the earth, and in the succession of night and day, there are indeed messages for all who are endowed with insight,
3191 who remember God when they stand, and when they sit, and when they lie down to sleep, and reflect on the creation of the heavens and the earth "O our Sustainer! Thou hast not created this without meaning and purpose. Limitless art Thou in Thy glory! Keep us safe, then, from suffering through fire!
4132 And unto God belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is on earth; and none is as worthy of trust as God.
No one is as trust worthy as God. NO ONE. Including Muhammad or whoever wrote the Quran.
So, do we go to the quran, or do we go straight to God and his creation?5120 God's is the dominion over the heavens and the earth and all that they contain; and He has the power to will anything.
The point I'm trying to make is that the universe, and all the knowledge in it, is the source of this book we call the Quran. We don't use the Quran to verify everything, but we use the universe to verify books, including the Quran.
God did not write a book. That's not how God inspired Abraham.
God wrote this world. And Abraham studied this world. So did Muhammad. And that brings us the Quran.
Muhammad did write the quran, or maybe he delivered his message orally. It doesn't matter. What's important is that it was his message.
BTW, I'm not arguing that the quran is wrong. It can be 100% true. And every bit of truth it contains is divine.
I don't want to take this to the "critical examination" section because I'm not criticizing what the quran is saying, I'm just saying that it doesn't say what some think it says.
also read my earlier post on page 10.and keep in mind that my interpretation of the above verses may differ from yours. even though most of the verses are pretty clear and straighforward. I apologize for any glaring mistake I may have made.
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Peace
The following verses say Abraham recieved a book
87 18 And this is in the Books of the earliest (Revelations)
87 19 The Books of Abraham and Moses.3 84 Say "We believe in Allah and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham Isma`il Isaac Jacob and the Tribes and in (Books) given to Moses Jesus and the Prophets from their Lord; we make no distinction between one and another among them and to Allah do we bow our will (in Islam)."
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Right, first of all, Ahmed is using clear verses to answer Phoenix's questions; distorting what he's saying cannot prove what you're implying or defame him, using your little technique (far be it for me to put words into other peoples mouths but I've noticed you have no problem with that) Ahmed is simply saying 'My concept of God is what he clearly states in the Qur'an'.
ahmed who? you act as though it is solely directed at ahmed... it's directed at anyone with this line of thinking... if that includes ahmed it's not my fault, it's ahmed's. i don't control the way people think
i like that word "clearly"... pretty interesting that it's so clear yet everyone is still arguing about it... so which parts exactly are clear? do you really know? do you have the whole thing locked down? if it clearly says one thing to ahmed and clearly says another thing to me, which of us is correct?
Are you implying that Ahmed is following conjectures? Because all I've ever seen him using are verses from the Qur'an, is that what value you place on them?
firstly i was talking about lobster... that he does not blindly accept a conjecture without questioning what he is told. simple. nothing to do with ahmed in particular... it has to do with questioning what we are taught... see?
as for ahmed, what i think you should say instead is that all you have ever seen him use are his interpretations of verses of the quran... and often not even his own interpretations... now what value do you place on him?
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peace,
thank you, Aaron
Going back to Warner's point,
this is what I wrote in my last post.26196 And, verily, this is indeed found in the ancient books of divine wisdom .
So, the essence of this revelation can be found in ancient books of divine wisdom?
The fact is that the quran gives us "truths we already possess." We already know what is in it. And it is a message as old as mankind itself. It's been written down in books like the quran a million times before. The message is the same.The truth is there is old books, written down by "prophets" just like muhammad.
You can look at it two ways. One way is that God sent down special books with special knowledge (but for some reason didn't preserve them until the quran), and that's what these books were.
Or we can look at it in the light of the rest of the verses I posted, and know that the "special knowledge" is already there around us in this world, and it can be described in human words.
I believe if Moses and Abraham had books, they wrote them, not God. -
peace
This verse clearly says that the people who call themselves "Jews" and "Christians" are not the decendents of Abraham. What does this mean?So, the children of isreal (whoever they are_ recognize God's true revelations. But they aren't the Jews? hmm...Salam Lobster,
Sweetie, you clearly have not read the ayat appropriately. 2140 Or do ye say that Abraham, Isma'il Isaac, Jacob and the Tribes were Jews or Christians? Say Do ye know better than Allah. Ah! who is more unjust than those who conceal the testimony they have from Allah. but Allah is not unmindful of what ye do!
This ayat is speaking of Abraham, Ismail, Issac, and Jacob and tribes, not being Jews and Christians at the time, meaning they were not born as jews or christians,nor did they worship or follow a doctrine as jews or christians. This does not mean that any descendants of them will not call themselves jews or christians, as many people convert, and obviously over centuries, it is likely that some of the descendants will be christians or jews. But this verse is again, not talking about decendants, it is talking about them.
Honor