Muhammad Wrote the quran
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I don't get it really? She posted about what she thought, just as you post about what you think. If you have a problem with what she's posted shouldn't you refute it according to what she actually said rather than she posted "x" and just on that basis alone it's a hadith and not worth it? Explain please.
well, it seems you missed out what I wrote
please read again and you will see that I stand for " NO ONE CAN KNOW IF MOHAMMAD KNEW HOW TO WRITE ON NOT"
when you refute that I will look at your other queries in the above comment
Thanks
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Peace Ahmed
did I say that?
I'm referring to this statement of yours where you say, "can you please convince me that what you say is one of those lil conjectures that we may follow" .
one of your main principals to reject the hadith that it is nothing but conjectures by the Sunni
No not at all. I believe there are ahadeeth which can be followed in Sunni literature if it does not deviate from matters of the quran. A conjecture is a lie and I do not think all ahadeeth in their literature is a lie, but how they were derived may be a lie.
can't you see that your fellow Quran Aloners are doing the eact same?
I suppose so. I'm not sure if this is a primary matter or if it even fits in to why someone would not adhere to sunni ahadeeth literature.
then the same goes to the hadith advocates and every human on earth
My sentiments as well.
anyone wants to convince others with anything that is related to islam, must bring their evidences from the Quran if they are truthful, that is the heart and soul of the Quran alone movement, right?
I do not think the goal is to convince anyone. I'll point out the way, you are the one who must get off your butt to follow it through and become familiar with it.
you failed to convince me then you failed to provide comelling evidences from the Quran
Not necessarily. It may simply mean that you reject certain things from the quran. I'm not in the business of convincing anyone of anything.
SHOW ME A VERSE IN THE QURAN THAT TELLS US CONCLUSIVLY THAT MOHAMMAD KNEW HOW TO WRITE
The article I provided the link to shows me convincingly that the bearer of the message was a literate person to some degree. It is my understanding of the matter. If you reject that than I'm not going to try and convince you when you do not want to be convinced.
is it a requirement to believe which human documented the Quran to be 100% Muslim to Allah?
Muslimeen who are not in a condition of faith do not need to believe in the quran or adhere to it's laws in my opinion.
Joe
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well, it seems you missed out what I wrote
please read again and you will see that I stand for " NO ONE CAN KNOW IF MOHAMMAD KNEW HOW TO WRITE ON NOT"
when you refute that I will look at your other queries in the above comment
Thanks
Let's start with a premise that we don't know but we are trying to piece things together and come to what may be more valid given the evidence. If someone writes what they think might have happened, it's best to refute that on what is actually written rather than just the fact that they had the temerity to write it, right? I don't need to refute what you stand for to make this comment btw, it's up to you to address it or not. No matter. Thanks.
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well, it seems you missed out what I wrote
please read again and you will see that I stand for " NO ONE CAN KNOW IF MOHAMMAD KNEW HOW TO WRITE ON NOT"
when you refute that I will look at your other queries in the above comment
Thanks
JK- We can infer from the following Quranic verse tht Muhammad knew how to write
They also said, "Tales from the past that he wrote down; they were dictated to him day and night."
GOD Bless! -
I don't think the actual Arabic verse says that, doesn't it say something along the lines of 'tales of the ancients he dictated'? I.e. that he had wrote down.
I'll get the verse...
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{4}
And those who disbelieve say This is nothing but a lie which he has forged, and other people have helped him at it; so indeed they have done injustice and (uttered) a falsehood.
But the misbelievers say "Naught is this but a lie which he has forged, and others have helped him at it." In truth it is they who have put forward an iniquity and a falsehood.
Those who disbelieve say This is naught but a lie that he hath invented, and other folk have helped him with it, so that they have produced a slander and a lie.{5}
And they say The stories of the ancients-- he has got them written-- so these are read out to him morning and evening.
And they say "Tales of the ancients, which he has caused to be written and they are dictated before him morning and evening."
And they say Fables of the men of old which he hath had written down so that they are dictated to him morn and evening. -
Peace all,
2948 is also proof that the Prophet learned how to write after the start of revelation
2948 You were not reciting any scripture before this (qablihi), nor were you writing one down by your hand. In that case, the doubters would have had reason.
The word "qablihi" in this verse is significant which means "before this revelation came." Thus al-qur'aan has put the record straight that the Prophet could read and write after the start of revelation.
Sectarians may be surprised to find out that the hadeeth collected by their beloved idol Bukhari contains proof that Muhammad could write ! wow
Here is the narration...
Volume 3, Book 49, Number 863
Narrated Al-Bara"When the Prophet intended to perform 'Umra in the month of Dhul-Qada, the people of Mecca did not let him enter Mecca till he settled the matter with them by promising to stay in it for three days only. When the document of treaty was written, the following was mentioned 'These are the terms on which Muhammad, Allah's Apostle agreed (to make peace).' They said, "We will not agree to this, for if we believed that you are Allah's Apostle we would not prevent you, but you are Muhammad bin 'Abdullah." The Prophet said, "I am Allah's Apostle and also Muhammad bin 'Abdullah." Then he said to 'Ali, "Rub off (the words) 'Allah's Apostle' ", but 'Ali said, "No, by Allah, I will never rub off your name." So, Allah's Apostle took the document and wrote, 'This is what Muhammad bin 'Abdullah has agreed upon No arms will be brought into Mecca except in their cases, and nobody from the people of Mecca will be allowed to go with him (i.e. the Prophet ) even if he wished to follow him and he (the Prophet ) will not prevent any of his companions from staying in Mecca if the latter wants to stay.' When the Prophet entered Mecca and the time limit passed, the Meccans went to 'Ali and said, "Tell your Friend (i.e. the Prophet ) to go out, as the period (agreed to) has passed." So, the Prophet went out of Mecca. The daughter of Hamza ran after them (i.e. the Prophet and his companions), calling, "O Uncle! O Uncle!" 'Ali received her and led her by the hand and said to Fatima, "Take your uncle's daughter." Zaid and Ja'far quarrel ed about her. 'Ali said, "I have more right to her as she is my uncle's daughter." Ja'far said, "She is my uncle's daughter, and her aunt is my wife." Zaid said, "She is my brother's daughter." The Prophet judged that she should be given to her aunt, and said that the aunt was like the mother. He then said to 'All, "You are from me and I am from you", and said to Ja'far, "You resemble me both in character and appearance", and said to Zaid, "You are our brother (in faith) and our freed slave.""
The ability of the Prophet to write in the above quoted "hadeeth" is confirmed by 255 and 2948.
In 255, the rejecters' false accusation about the Prophet is that al-qur'aan is just tales of the ancients that he wrote after being dictated to him by other people and that false accusation could have been made only if the Prophet knew how to write.
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Peace Ahmed
Salam mate
I'm referring to this statement of yours where you say, "can you please convince me that what you say is one of those lil conjectures that we may follow" .
well, sort of I waqs seeking advice, it seems you don?t want to provide the advice, that is fine with me
No not at all. I believe there are ahadeeth which can be followed in Sunni literature if it does not deviate from matters of the quran.
It seems you misunderstood my question, I?m not talking what the sunni do, I?m talking about the Quran alone members, do you follow those hadith affirmed by the sunni which does not contradict the Quran or the Arabic language in any way?
A conjecture is a lie
That is not an accurate statement
A conjecture maybe a lie and maybe truthful, do you agree?
and I do not think all ahadeeth in their literature is a lie,
But they stay conjectures even if we found out on the JD that it was not a lie, right?
but how they were derived may be a lie.
Not sure what you mean by that?, if any part of the process is a lie and you can?t know which part then it safe to assume that the whole thing is a lie, do you agree?
I suppose so. I'm not sure if this is a primary matter or if it even fits in to why someone would not adhere to sunni ahadeeth literature.
ok
I do not think the goal is to convince anyone. I'll point out the way, you are the one who must get off your butt to follow it through and become familiar with it.
get off my butt and be familiar with what exactly?
The repititve non sense that many people are associating to the Quran and its language?
Not necessarily. It may simply mean that you reject certain things from the quran.
hmmm, this will make me to accuse you safely of being a liar, provide your evidence if you are truthful?
Yeh yeh, that is right, it is me who reject the angels, the jinn, Jahannam and Hell as physical entities, what a load of non sense you just spat out
I'm not in the business of convincing anyone of anything.
sure, but we in the business to refute each other arguments, right?
The article I provided the link to shows me convincingly that the bearer of the message was a literate person to some degree.
hmmm, your use of the words ?to some degree? is really shaky
now let?s get to the real Question
DID MOHAMAD WRITE THE QURAN IN FULL WITH HIS OWN HANDS?
Please give me definite answer
- Yes
- No
- We Don?t know
Thanks
It is my understanding of the matter. If you reject that than I'm not going to try and convince you when you do not want to be convinced.
my right then to expose that what you say is nothing but conjectures
Muslimeen who are not in a condition of faith do not need to believe in the quran or adhere to it's laws in my opinion.
Joe
what is that Muslimoon who are not in a condition of faith?
And your conjecture that they don?t need to believe in the Quran or to its laws, is that before ort after the revelation of the Quran?
Thanks
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Peace all,
2948 is also proof that the Prophet learned how to write after the start of revelation
2948 You were not reciting any scripture before this (qablihi), nor were you writing one down by your hand. In that case, the doubters would have had reason.
The word "qablihi" in this verse is significant which means "before this revelation came." Thus al-qur'aan has put the record straight that the Prophet could read and write after the start of revelation.
Sectarians may be surprised to find out that the hadeeth collected by their beloved idol Bukhari contains proof that Muhammad could write ! o wow
Here is the narration...
Volume 3, Book 49, Number 863
Narrated Al-Bara"When the Prophet intended to perform 'Umra in the month of Dhul-Qada, the people of Mecca did not let him enter Mecca till he settled the matter with them by promising to stay in it for three days only. When the document of treaty was written, the following was mentioned 'These are the terms on which Muhammad, Allah's Apostle agreed (to make peace).' They said, "We will not agree to this, for if we believed that you are Allah's Apostle we would not prevent you, but you are Muhammad bin 'Abdullah." The Prophet said, "I am Allah's Apostle and also Muhammad bin 'Abdullah." Then he said to 'Ali, "Rub off (the words) 'Allah's Apostle' ", but 'Ali said, "No, by Allah, I will never rub off your name." So, Allah's Apostle took the document and wrote, 'This is what Muhammad bin 'Abdullah has agreed upon No arms will be brought into Mecca except in their cases, and nobody from the people of Mecca will be allowed to go with him (i.e. the Prophet ) even if he wished to follow him and he (the Prophet ) will not prevent any of his companions from staying in Mecca if the latter wants to stay.' When the Prophet entered Mecca and the time limit passed, the Meccans went to 'Ali and said, "Tell your Friend (i.e. the Prophet ) to go out, as the period (agreed to) has passed." So, the Prophet went out of Mecca. The daughter of Hamza ran after them (i.e. the Prophet and his companions), calling, "O Uncle! O Uncle!" 'Ali received her and led her by the hand and said to Fatima, "Take your uncle's daughter." Zaid and Ja'far quarrel ed about her. 'Ali said, "I have more right to her as she is my uncle's daughter." Ja'far said, "She is my uncle's daughter, and her aunt is my wife." Zaid said, "She is my brother's daughter." The Prophet judged that she should be given to her aunt, and said that the aunt was like the mother. He then said to 'All, "You are from me and I am from you", and said to Ja'far, "You resemble me both in character and appearance", and said to Zaid, "You are our brother (in faith) and our freed slave.""
The ability of the Prophet to write in the above quoted "hadeeth" is confirmed by 255 and 2948.
In 255, the rejecters' false accusation about the Prophet is that al-qur'aan is just tales of the ancients that he wrote after being dictated to him by other people and that false accusation could have been made only if the Prophet knew how to write.
Well well, look's like there may be more information at hand than thought, hadith never ceases to amaze me...
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Let's start with a premise that we don't know
there is a fact that can't be ignored, we know for certain that Mohammad didn't know who to write till the Quran revelation, do you agree?
but we are trying to piece things together and come to what may be more valid given the evidence.
ane the relevence of that exactly?. i mean we are only contributing to conjectures, right?. wasn't that the same the sunni did?
what the difference between the Muslims who do not care which human wrote the Quran, and those who believe Mohammad wrote it, and those who believe Mohammad never wrote it?
If someone writes what they think might have happened, it's best to refute that on what is actually written rather than just the fact that they had the temerity to write it, right?
Oh Please, don't be emotional, try to be logical,
Samia came up with a story that the prophet write Be Ism as Bism, she never provided any evidence that the prophet did so though, therefore I'm not going to refute her conjectires until she provide her evidences that the prophet did so, sorry
I don't need to refute what you stand for to make this comment btw, it's up to you to address it or not. No matter. Thanks.
well, don't ask others to refute others then, please dont be emotional, try to stay logical
salam
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Well well, look's like there may be more information at hand than thought, hadith never ceases to amaze me...
Salam bro
lol, since when mate we use the hadith as evidences?
are we double faced and not aware of it or somthin?
yeh yeh, like R K who used the hadith to dismiss 2 verses from the Quran
mate anyone who uses hadith as evidences is a double faced clear cut hypocrite
Salam
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JK- We can infer from the following Quranic verse tht Muhammad knew how to write
They also said, "Tales from the past that he wrote down; they were dictated to him day and night."
GOD Bless!Salam
what a silly argument that is, well read again
it says "THEY SAY" who are they?
it is the kafiroon who said that, as they said other lies in the previous verse, i.e. verse 4 and 5 are total lies said by the kafiroon
did Allah said Mohammad write the Quran?
No He didn't
good on you that you believed the lying kafiroon
Salam
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lol, since when mate we use the hadith as evidences?
Hadith may be innacurate, but you can nevertheless find out some things from it.
How do you think historians go about their business? All historical reports just like hadith are subject to bias and innacuracies, it is the job of the historian to do their best with the information at hand.
mate anyone who uses hadith as evidences is a double faced clear cut hypocrite
What I said was
Well well, look's like there may be more information at hand than thought, hadith never ceases to amaze me...
I didn't imply it as an evidence, if you read 15 posts up you'll understand what I mean.
However I am confused, don't you use hadith as a source of how you pray and other religious things?
Hadith is contextual whether people like that or not, simply because it's a source of historical information, everything from its flawed science to its use of sanads can be anaylsed.
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Peace Ahmad
When I say "literate to some degree" I mean so in the sense that all people have a different degree of literal ability. No one is excatly alike. So the bearer of glad tidings may have been quite versed or not or anything in between or to one of the 2 extremes. That is what I mean by literate to some degree. I cannot measure his, your, or mine own literacy, but I'm sure each of us on this here forum are literate to some degree, each moreso or less than another.
When something has some degree of falsehood to it I do not think it is totally false as a whole. Since you're talking about the ahadeeth let's say the process is a lie (in how it was derived) or that it is fundamentally flawed. If it mentions that there is a hereafter, a future that is following my present condition I will be inclined to agree because I believe there is such a future. Now if I am correct in my belief, which coincides with the teaching of the ahadeeth than it shows me that the ahadeeth is not totally a literature of conjecture though it may boast of much conjecture.
You can expose my belief to be a conjecture, and it is true, it is a guess, but it is no wild guess in my opinion. With the evidence I've been able to piece together I would not think my conjecture is far from the truth of the matter. I'm sorry for using the word conjecture to mean lie, it should be a different word, but conjecture is more in line with guessing or having that miniscule evidence of which you are accusing me. As I said, I do not think I am making a wild guest when I say the bearer of glad tidings had some degree of literacy.
I say that muslimeen do not need to follow the laws of the quran because not all muslimeen are mumin.
Joe
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Hadith may be innacurate, but you can nevertheless find out some things from it.
That is not the point, we are not discussing history, we are discussing what is sanctioned by Allah in His Quran, do you agree?
How do you think historians go about their business? All historical reports just like hadith are subject to bias and innacuracies, it is the job of the historian to do their best with the information at hand.
Of course and I love readinig about history, but again we are talking about what is sanctioned in the Quran, that is the whole thing, in here, on FI, or on FFI, now some are conjecturing that the prophet wrote the Quran, some are conjecruring that the prophet didn't write the Quran, and others don't conjecture and just don't know,
which one you go for?
What I said was
I didn't imply it as an evidence, if you read 15 posts up you'll understand what I mean.
actually I was not implying that you use it as evidence, i was only implying that Tanveer ised it as evidence
However I am confused, don't you use hadith as a source of how you pray and other religious things?
well, I actually never read any hadith to teach me salat, I learnt ikt from my parents, then I found it logical and does not follow the Quran, so I follow it, however I really wish that I can pray more than 5 times a day, It id a dream for me to be able to do it 100 times a day and 10 Rakkaa on each one, will I be punished by God you reckon for doing so?
Hadith is contextual whether people like that or not, simply because it's a source of historical information, everything from its flawed science to its use of sanads can be anaylsed.
will you use to confirm what is snactioned by Allah in His Quran?
remember the hadith did not snaction the Salat, the Salat was sanctioned by Allah in the Quran, the hadith only explained it, and it is wrong to call it salat hadith, it was actually a sunnah inherited from the prophet until it reached my parents, i.e I don't need hadith for it
Salam
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which one you go for?
Read about 17 posts back and you'll see.
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Peace all,
Looks like one of the posters here has difficulty understanding what is being used as evidence and what is being used to expose the sectarian's hypocrisy.
The quoted hadeeth was supposed to expose the sectarians' hypocrisy and the contradictory nature of the sectarian ahadeeth and not to be used as "evidence". The evidence from al-qur'aan is enough proof of the Prophet's ability to write after the start of revelation, and if a sectarian hadeeth contains something that is confirmed by al-qur'aan, then only that part of the sectarian hadeeth can be taken as the truth.
Looks like one of the posters here also has difficulty understanding the following
In 255, the rejecters' false accusation about the Prophet is that al-qur'aan is just tales of the ancients that he wrote after being dictated to him by other people and that false accusation could have been made only if the Prophet knew how to write.
In other words, no one would have been able to make that false accustaion if the Prophet NEVER knew how to write !
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Peace Ahmad
When I say "literate to some degree" I mean so in the sense that all people have a different degree of literal ability. No one is excatly alike. So the bearer of glad tidings may have been quite versed or not or anything in between or to one of the 2 extremes. That is what I mean by literate to some degree. I cannot measure his, your, or mine own literacy, but I'm sure each of us on this here forum are literate to some degree, each moreso or less than another.
When something has some degree of falsehood to it I do not think it is totally false as a whole. Since you're talking about the ahadeeth let's say the process is a lie (in how it was derived) or that it is fundamentally flawed. If it mentions that there is a hereafter, a future that is following my present condition I will be inclined to agree because I believe there is such a future. Now if I am correct in my belief, which coincides with the teaching of the ahadeeth than it shows me that the ahadeeth is not totally a literature of conjecture though it may boast of much conjecture.
You can expose my belief to be a conjecture, and it is true, it is a guess, but it is no wild guess in my opinion. With the evidence I've been able to piece together I would not think my conjecture is far from the truth of the matter. I'm sorry for using the word conjecture to mean lie, it should be a different word, but conjecture is more in line with guessing or having that miniscule evidence of which you are accusing me. As I said, I do not think I am making a wild guest when I say the bearer of glad tidings had some degree of literacy.
I say that muslimeen do not need to follow the laws of the quran because not all muslimeen are mumin.
Joe
Salm mate
just a quick comment to make it berief,
we have to cut it short in here, because you are trying to back up a flawed statement with another flawed one, while we discussed that many times on FM and I provided zillions of Quran evidneces that the Muslim is the highest level of belief, i.e. every Muslim is a believer but not every believer is a Muslim
i.e. we reached a dead end and we must stop
Salam
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Read about 17 posts back and you'll see.
I know, I have read it, but my comment was not really directed at you, it was smartly put down directed at another member that i donlt want to discuss matters with him
do you get it?