Muhammad Wrote the quran
-
Peace Ahmed
Salam mate
I will have to agree that some do because I do.
Very strange that you make conjectures facts, not much difference from the Sunni hey.
I do not think I am ignorant because I do so.
well, anyone who believes in conjectures as facts being me or you must be a clear cut ignorant, like the sunni exactly, LOL
I may be enlightened because I do.
Great
Apparently you seem to think you have the correct answer so I think I can safely assume you can guide us all to the promised land.
Are you having a go at sarcasm?. Well you are not doing well in that department,
On the other hand yes my answer is the right one as far as avoiding conjectures is concerned, we don?t know if Mohammad wrote the Quran with his own hands or not, NOTHING IN THE QURAN THAT SUGGEST THAT MOHAMMAD WROTE THE WHOLE QURAN WITH HIS OWN HANDS
I?m still waiting for the verse to conclusively prove so.
This is a quote from the link which you will not visit
Sure, let?s have a look
In al-quran there is a challenge put forth to those who would seek to disavow al-quran's divine inspiration. It is made clear that nobody will be able to produce such a reading however.
Sure
"And if you are in doubt as to that which We have revealed to our servant, then produce a chapter like it and call on your helpers besides Allah if you are truthful. But if you do (it) not - and you can never do (it) - then be on you guard against the fire whose fuel is men and stones; it is prepared for the disbelievers. (223-24)
Sure
- Since no man should be able to produce a writ such as al-quran then there should be no doubt that such a reading is from the divine.
What you are going on about exactly bro?
We are not disputing the divinity of the Quran,
Here is the question again
Where is the verse in the Quran that conclusively tells us that Mohammad wrote the whole Quran with his own hands?
I?m still waiting.
Chapter 29 verse 48 seems to make it apparent that the prophet/messenger could read and write because it is declared the Muhammad could not produce a writ such as al-quran by his own means. We already know that no man can do such by their own means because of verses 23-24 of chapter 2.
2948 never said Mohammad wrote the whole Quran with hs own hands, please be aware that gussing can not be addmisable
And thou didst not recite before it any book, nor didst thou transcribe one with thy right hand, for then could the liars have doubted. (294
That is right, i.e. Mohammad didn?t write the Quran, otherwise ? the liars have doubted.?, SEE
Thus we are presented with the fact that the prophet/messenger never transcribed or recited such a revelation by his own means for if he did the liars would have a just reason to doubt that al-quran was from God. Since nobody can produce such a revelation (see 223-24) we know that it was not written by Muhammad from his own means, nor did he ever have the means to produce any other scripture."
what is going on here?
Here is the Question again, where in 2948 that it says Mohammad wrote the whole Quran with his own hands?
I?m still waiting
In the link I posted which you will not visit it states
sorry, I don?t look ar urls posted by anyone to me, either they put the argument using their own words or I will dismiss it.
"Regarding the word 'umme' the following verses will be used to back up my view that it refers to one who has not dealt with divine wisdom and/or decrees.
And when they meet those who believe they say, We believe, and when they are apart with one another they say, Do you talk to them of what Allah has disclosed to you that they may contend with you by this before your Lord? Do you not understand? Do they not know that Allah knows what they keep secret and what they make known? And some of them are illiterate; they know not the Book but only (from) heresay, and they do but conjecture. (276-7
Here we have the 'umme' among those who conceal the truth, keeping it among themselves as if they own it. The last sentence actually makes it clear what 'umme' is referring to; it is those who do not know about the book, they learn of it from ramblings and only guess about it. Thus they are not familiar with the divine precepts."
Joe
well, I will reply to your Ummi argument later on tonight inshaallah
Salam
-
2948 is proof that the Prophet learned how to write after the start of revelation
2948 You were not reciting any scripture before this (qablihi), nor were you writing one down by your hand. In that case, the doubters would have had reason.
Let me break it down further for someone here who might have the comprehension ability of a 5th grader
From 2948
You were not reciting any scripture before this ------> indicates you (the Prophet) recited the whole Qur'aan
SIMILARLY
Nor were you writing one down by your hand ------> indicates you (the Prophet) wrote down the whole Qur'aan with your hand.
you keep bringing up this verse, and you continuously translate it as recite. i provided an alternative interpretation of the evidence. this is not a red herring at all.
if you post an entire verse as evidence then the entire verse is up for being interpreted... unless you just want to look right instead of actually be right... up to you, doctor P
-
You actually preseneted no argument other than emotional gesture
and the relevence is?. why you want to speculate someting that will neber be known?
that is exactly what thye sunni did, right?
again in her hadith, she claimed the prophet wrote Be Ism as Bism, I'm still waiting for the evdinece that the prophet did so, till then it will stay as conjectures like like the conjectures by the sunni
Salam
I wasn't presenting an argument to or for the subject Ahmed sigh. I was asking you to refute people based on logic/reasoning of what they actually said as opposed to "look someone wrote a post, hence it is a story, thus a hadith, therefore bwahaha, caught you red handed, hypocrites". It isn't a refutation if it's irrational is it. Samia was using reasoning as she does in most of her posts, try to refute reasoning using reason? Secondly, regarding what you call speculation...I think it's inference rather than speculation in this case because she has given the evidence in her posts.
-
t l w - 1
t l w - 2
t l w - 3seems to me that this root can also mean follow... has anyone even bothered to investigate or suppose that perhaps it isn't talking about reciting at all, but following instead?
Yes, it means to follow as in consecutive, not as in "to abide with".
-
Peace Aaron,
You are going off-topic
What I meant was that either translation will not change the argument presented in favor of the Prophet writing the Qur'aan with his hand. Try substituting "recite" with "follow" in 2948 everywhere in my relevant posts and you will see that it makes no difference in the argument presented pertaining to this thread. That is why I said that this has no bearing on the present discussion pertinent to this thread.
Maybe you should start a separate thread in the "questions/comments on the Qur'aan" section about the appropriate translation of "tatloo" in 2948, addressed to the Classical Arabic experts, to sort this issue out. !
It appears that Samia has already sorted out this issue. According to her elaboration, the meaning of "follow" as in "consecutive" would make no sense in 2948, showing that it can only mean read/recite in the relevant verse. Where The God wants to indicate "follow" as in "abide with", He uses the words "attabi3u" (650, 1015) or "tabi3a" etc. of the root form "TB3".
I will not make any more comments on this particular issue in this thread.
-
It appears that Samia has already sorted out this issue. According to her elaboration, the meaning of "follow" as in "consecutive" would make no sense in 2948, showing that it can only mean read/recite in the relevant verse. I will not make any more comments on this particular issue in this thread.
Salaam Tanweer
I gave the basic meaning. However, it does relate to reading, too. When you read, don't you recite the words consecutively to make a comrehensible sentence?
-
at the top of this page in the right hand column it says "Hw ytlw flana" and then gives the meaning "He imitates such a one and follows what he does; he follows him in action" - and close again underneath that another derivative is given the meaning "he read, or perused, or recited... or he followed..." and goes on to say "the Kuran or any discourse or piece of language"
-
ahmed
Hello
is there any definitive proof from this quran that it was not written down by the person to whom it was revealed?
No
you keep askin for solid proof that it was... do you have solid proof that it wasn't?
well, it is not like if there is no proof that I didn't go the moon that I must have gone to the moon
silly argument by you
again, we don't know conclusivly if Mohammad wrote the whole Quran with his own hands or not, the onus are on those who claim as such, till then it has to stay nothing but conjectures
-
I wasn't presenting an argument to or for the subject Ahmed sigh.
sorry for the misunderstaning then
I was asking you to refute people based on logic/reasoning of what they actually said as opposed to "look someone wrote a post, hence it is a story, thus a hadith, therefore bwahaha, caught you red handed, hypocrites". It isn't a refutation if it's irrational is it.
well it is a logical argument, the members in here keep bragging about the conjecutres in the Hadith by the sunnis, on the other hand they create their own hadith at the same time, can't you see that?
pretty silly if you ask me
Samia was using reasoning as she does in most of her posts, try to refute reasoning using reason?
she provided no evidnece but conjectyures, she claimed the prophet must have wrote the word Be Ism, as Bism, now I'm still waiting for the evidence that the prophet did so, till then it has to stay conjectures
Secondly, regarding what you call speculation...I think it's inference rather than speculation in this case because she has given the evidence in her posts.
then tell me what it should lead to that the prophet or another human wrote the Quran, we know that the Quran is from God, He Also never said who wrote it down from humans, why you want the Muslims to follow your conjectures that Mohammad wrote the whole Quran with his own hands?
-
I nominate this - the thread that grew the fastest.
I just wanted to say thanks Tanveer for answering the question. What I found funny was how all your posts were ignored by the person who asked!
PEACE
Hello
what I also found funny that you didn't reply to my question to your allegation in page one
so insteadd of accusing others of acting funny because they didn't not reply to others I urge you to look in the mirror
Thank you
-
silly argument by you
it was a question, not an argument. get your mind right, son
again, we don't know conclusivly if Mohammad wrote the whole Quran with his own hands or not, the onus are on those who claim as such, till then it has to stay nothing but conjectures
they believe one way and post what they consider evidence, and if you believe the opposite then you should post what you consider evidence. if you don't care either way who wrote it down, then that's fine too.
-
Hows about we have a 1 on 1 with this?
It'll be much better if one participant can make a claim with their evidences and the one with the opposing view can make their refutation/counter claim with theirs in a structured manner.
-
Hello Joe
Let me now reply to your view regarding the word Ummi
"Regarding the word 'umme' the following verses will be used to back up my view that it refers to one who has not dealt with divine wisdom and/or decrees.
Firstly your comment above is very vague, you said ? it refers to one who has not dealt with divine wisdom and/or decrees.?,
What that means exactly?
Did they receive a scripture or not? Without waiting for your answer I will state to you all possibilities and show you that it still makes no sense under all
Possibly you mean any of the followings
- They never received a scripture before, i.e. they have not dealt with divine wisdom and/or decrees
- They received scriptures but they ignored it and never pondered upon it, i.e. they have not dealt with divine wisdom and/or decrees
That is the only two possibilities as far as believe that should be the cause for your statement, that they have not dealt with divine wisdom and/or decrees
Let?s now look at the verses where the Ummi and its plural appeared and see which one of the possibilities above fit (it can?t be both)
Let me first say that The word Ummia means illiteracy, it is very common in the Arab world, there is even a common expression used in these countries called Mahw Al Ummia, i.e. eliminating illiteracy, it is a program to educate those who do not read nor write
On the other hand, if we talk logically then we have 3 other possibilities in addition to those who don?t read nor write
- Those who read but not write
- Those who write but not read
- Those who do both
Possibility 1 is valid because there are many who can read but can?t write, I know a lot myself in different languages
Possibility no 2 is illogical because there is no way that someone who can write Arabic words while can?t read it at the same time. We are not talking drawing in here.
We have to eliminate possibility 3 because if you read and write then you are not Ummi any more
Therefore the word Ummi applies to the followings
- Those who don?t read nor write
- Those who read but don?t write
I.e. any one who belongs to any of the above MUST BE UMMI
The Quran clearly referred to the prophet as an Ummi in two locations (I think), let me bring them all so we leave nothing without pondering on, I brought in the most common translations
157
YUSUFALI "Those who follow the messenger, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures),- in the law and the Gospel;- for he commands them what is just and forbids them what is evil; he allows them as lawful what is good (and pure) and prohibits them from what is bad (and impure); He releases them from their heavy burdens and from the yokes that are upon them. So it is those who believe in him, honour him, help him, and follow the light which is sent down with him,- it is they who will prosper."PICKTHAL Those who follow the messenger, the Prophet who can neither read nor write, whom they will find described in the Torah and the Gospel (which are) with them. He will enjoin on them that which is right and forbid them that which is wrong. He will make lawful for them all good things and prohibit for them only the foul; and he will relieve them of their burden and the fetters that they used to wear. Then those who believe in him, and honour him, and help him, and follow the light which is sent down with him they are the successful.
SHAKIR Those who follow the Messenger-Prophet, the Ummi, whom they find written down with them in the Taurat and the Injeel (who) enjoins them good and forbids them evil, and makes lawful to them the good things and makes unlawful to them impure things, and removes from them their burden and the shackles which were upon them; so (as for) those who believe in him and honor him and help him, and follow the light which has been sent down with him, these it is that are the successful.
158
YUSUFALI Say O men! I am sent unto you all, as the Messenger of Allah, to Whom belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth there is no god but He it is He That giveth both life and death. So believe in Allah and His Messenger, the Unlettered Prophet, who believeth in Allah and His words follow him that (so) ye may be guided.PICKTHAL Say (O Muhammad) O mankind! Lo! I am the messenger of Allah to you all - (the messenger of) Him unto Whom belongeth the Sovereignty of the heavens and the earth. There is no Allah save Him. He quickeneth and He giveth death. So believe in Allah and His messenger, the Prophet who can neither read nor write, who believeth in Allah and in His Words, and follow him that haply ye may be led aright.
SHAKIR Say O people! surely I am the Messenger of Allah to you all, of Him Whose is the kingdom of the heavens and the earth there is no god but He; He brings to life and causes to die therefore believe in Allah and His messenger, the Ummi Prophet who believes in Allah and His words, and follow him so that you may walk in the right way.
(157)
(15-> As you can see above the word ??, appeared in both verses, regardless of what the verses say let?s see how all translators did
YUSUFALI translated as ?the Unlettered?
PICKTHAL translated as ?who can neither read nor write?
SHAKIR was not translated and was kept as ?the Ummi?I would say all three are accurate, because the Quran told us clearly that the prophet never wrote nor read a book before in 2948 as I explained earlier.
We can safely say that Mohammad DID?T READ NOR WRITE at least up to the Quran revelation, i.e. the word Ummi applies to him, remember that it applies to the following
- Those who don?t read nor write (Mohammad belongs to this group 294
- Those who read but don?t write
And that is why I said all 3 translators are accurate because if you don?t know how to read nor write as we were told that Mohammad was alike, then you are any of the followings and according to each translator
YUSUFALI ?the Unlettered?
PICKTHAL ?who can neither read nor write?
SHAKIR ?the Ummi? under the Arabic language of course, because Shakir did not translate it at all, I guess he was not sure what it means.Now to claim that Mohammad wrote the whole Quran with his own hands before he died is unfounded and is nothing but conjectures because to prove so you need to refer to the history about Mohammad, the Quran never told us that he did so we only left with the history, the history on the other hand never told us that Mohammad wrote the whole Quran with his own hands, this is an obvious clear cut lie that some ignorant try to inject it through the minds of na?ve Muslims, deliberately or not I don?t care, this won?t stop me from showing that they are saying nothing but conjectures, I?m sure it has to serve something they have in mind but I?m also sure that it will serve a low desire. Allah clearly told us that Mohammad did not know how to read nor write, you along with others claim that 2948 stated that HE DIDN?T WRITE PREVIOUS SCRIPTURES BEFORE BUT KNEW HOW TO WRITE, total non sense, let me say why again, because if the BOOK mentioned was without the Al, i.e. THE then it is called Nakirah, i.e. UNKNOWN. i.e. ANY BOOK that you can think of, here it is again ? ?, ?Min Kitab?, NOT ?Min AL Kitab?, therefore Allah clearly means Mohammad never wrote or read any book before. (any book you can think of including scriptures - UNKNOWN)
Let?s now assume that all the above is wrong and the word Ummi means that Mohammad ?has not dealt with divine wisdom and/or decrees.?, obviously according to that then we have to eliminate one of the possibilities, let me bring them again
- Mohammad never received a scripture before, i.e. he has not dealt with divine wisdom and/or decrees
- Mohammad received scriptures but he ignored it and never pondered upon it, i.e. he has not dealt with divine wisdom and/or decrees
Sure we have to eliminate possibility 2 because Mohammad never received a scripture before the Quran, right?
Therefore under your view the word Ummi should mean one who has not received a scripture before.
Let?s see if that meaning fit in other verses
We have the following verse describing the Jews
YUSUFALI And there are among them illiterates, who know not the Book, but (see therein their own) desires, and they do nothing but conjecture.
PICKTHAL Among them are unlettered folk who know the Scripture not except from hearsay. They but guess.
SHAKIR And there are among them illiterates who know not the Book but only lies, and they do but conjecture.
(7
-> The above verse is compelling evidence against those ignorant who say Ummieen /Ummioon means those who didn?t received a scripture, 278 is talking about the JEWS, indeed the whole context for tens of verses before it is all about the Jews and as you can see Allah described SOME OF THEM as illiterates ? ?, ?Wa Minhum Ummioon La Yalamoon Al Kitab?, i.e. ? Among them are unlettered folk who know not the Book?, obviously the Jews received the Book called Al Torah, this means, the ignorant logic that Ummioon means those who didn?t receive the Book is nothing but a lie, can you also see that Al which means THE preceded the word Kitab, i.e. THE BOOK, i.e. not any book rather their book ?THE SCRIPTURE?, ?THE TORAH?
Therefore all translators are accurate in translating the Plural of Ummi as illiterates, I wonder though why Shakir didn?t keep it as Ummioon as he did before in 7157-158, sounds he was a bit confused.
-> Now we have a contradiction under your understanding brother Joe, because we concluded that Ummi means those who has not received a book, while 278 is telling describing those who received a book as Ummioon, right?
Let me bring the two possibilities again and see if we can eliminate a possibility
- They never received a scripture before, i.e. They have not dealt with divine wisdom and/or decrees
- They received scriptures but they ignored it and never pondered upon it, i.e. they has not dealt with divine wisdom and/or decrees
Remember, we eliminated possibility 2 before, now it is about time to eliminate possibility 1 according to 278
i.e. we are left with no possibilities, see, no sense as I told you earlier
Let me continue with you Joe and see how your understanding that was vague from the first place fits more verses
YUSUFALI So if they dispute with thee, say "I have submitted My whole self to Allah and so have those who follow me. And say to the People of the Book and to those who are unlearned Do ye (also) submit yourselves? If they do, they are in right guidance, but if they turn back, Thy duty is to convey the Message; and in Allah's sight are (all) His servants.
PICKTHAL And if they argue with thee, (O Muhammad), say I have surrendered my purpose to Allah and (so have) those who follow me. And say unto those who have received the Scripture and those who read not Have ye (too) surrendered? If they surrender, then truly they are rightly guided, and if they turn away, then it is thy duty only to convey the message (unto them). Allah is Seer of (His) bondmen.
SHAKIR But if they dispute with you, say I have submitted myself entirely to Allah and (so) every one who follows me; and say to those who have been given the Book and the unlearned people Do you submit yourselves? So if they submit then indeed they follow the right way; and if they turn back, then upon you is only the delivery of the message and Allah sees the servants.
(20)
-> In the above example we read a clear order from Allah to Mohammad ? ?, ?Wa Qul Li Alazina Uotu Al Kitab Wa Al Ummieen A Aslamtum?, i.e. ?and say to those who have been given the Book and the unlearned people Do you submit yourselves??, i.e. all translators are accurate in translating the word Ummieen, but I still wonder why Pichthal is not consistent?, see, he first translated it as ?who can neither read nor write? in 7157-158 then he used the word ? unlettered? in 278 then in here he translated it as ?read not?, very confusing by him, I agree that all may be equal in meaning, but the Arabic word was the same in all three locations you expect the same English word I reckon.
I still have to say, you will see many ignorant who will lie and say oh yeh, here is our compelling evidence that Ummieen means those who didn?t receive a scripture, they lie and say, look at the above verse, Allah said to Mohammad , say to those who received the book and to the Ummieen, i.e. the Ummieen is the opposite of those who received the book, i.e. the Ummieen means those who didn?t receive the book
What a fallacy, I can?t believe it man. So you reckon if I say to the Americans and the British to piss off Iraq, would that mean the British are the opposite of the Americans?, bloody crap bro, what load of non sense is that?
Remember that we have seen the Jews been described as Ummioon in 278, and they received The book, right?
Quraish people were mostly Ummioon, i.e. most of them didn?t k now how to read nor write or at least they knew how to read but not write, the prophet though was uniquely flagged by Allah in the Quran as one of those Ummioon who didn?t know how to read not write as 2948 told us, indeed the Jews used to refer to Quarish as Ummioon, i.e. those who mostly are illiterate, let?s have a clear example
YUSUFALI Among the People of the Book are some who, if entrusted with a hoard of gold, will (readily) pay it back; others, who, if entrusted with a single silver coin, will not repay it unless thou constantly stoodest demanding, because, they say, there is no call on us (to keep faith) with these ignorant (Pagans). but they tell a lie against Allah, and (well) they know it.
PICKTHAL Among the People of the Scripture there is he who, if thou trust him with a weight of treasure, will return it to thee. And among them there is he who, if thou trust him with a piece of gold, will not return it to thee unless thou keep standing over him. That is because they say We have no duty to the Gentiles. They speak a lie concerning Allah knowingly.
SHAKIR And among the followers of the Book there are some such that if you entrust one (of them) with a heap of wealth, he shall pay it back to you; and among them there are some such that if you entrust one (of them) with a dinar he shall not pay it back to you except so long as you remain firm in demanding it; this is because they say There is not upon us in the matter of the unlearned people any way (to reproach); and they tell a lie against Allah while they know.
(75)
-> See above, the verse is about a trust between Quraish and the Jews or I should say Ahl Al Kitab in general, some of the Jews dishonoured some trusts and said ?There is not upon us in the matter of the unlearned people any way (to reproach)? , only Shakir got it right this time, both Yusuf Ali and Pikhthal contradicted themselves really bad, see how they translated the same word as ? ignorant? and ? Gentiles?, respectively, they are very confused mate and their translations can never be trusted.
And finally bro, let me bring this compelling example
2
YUSUFALI It is He Who has sent amongst the Unlettered a messenger from among themselves, to rehearse to them His Signs, to sanctify them, and to instruct them in Scripture and Wisdom,- although they had been, before, in manifest error;-PICKTHAL He it is Who hath sent among the unlettered ones a messenger of their own, to recite unto them His revelations and to make them grow, and to teach them the Scripture and wisdom, though heretofore they were indeed in error manifest,
SHAKIR He it is Who raised among the inhabitants of Mecca an Messenger from among themselves, who recites to them His communications and purifies them, and teaches them the Book and the Wisdom, although they were before certainly in clear error,
3
SHAKIR And others from among them who have not yet joined them; and He is the Mighty, the Wise.(2)
(3)-> The two verses above are very important, because I believe it is only concerning the Ummieen who lack literacy regardless if they only lack writing or lack both writing and reading, at the end of the day they lack literacy , one of the duties of the prophet was to explain to those who lack literacy Al Kitab and Al Hikmah, before that, they really were in clear error, and as a mercy from Allah, He deployed Mohammad for them to teach them what they can?t understand on their own even if they know how to read. I can assure you bro there are many non Arabic speaking Muslims who read the Quran in Arabic and they don?t understand a word, they have just been taught how to recite it, you will find many of those in Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran, and India, those must be called Ummioon of course, you can see that Yusuf Ali and Pikhthal translated it right while Shakir tried to be a bit smart and said ? the inhabitants of Mecca?, i.e. Quraish, and the history tells us that most of Quraishis were illiterates, on the other hand Shakir also contradicted himself.
And when they meet those who believe they say, We believe, and when they are apart with one another they say, Do you talk to them of what Allah has disclosed to you that they may contend with you by this before your Lord? Do you not understand? Do they not know that Allah knows what they keep secret and what they make known? And some of them are illiterate; they know not the Book but only (from) heresay, and they do but conjecture. (276-7
I explained 276 above bro
Here we have the 'umme' among those who conceal the truth, keeping it among themselves as if they own it.
That is a totally new meaning for the Ummi, now I have to say we have to agree to disagree, just let the public make up their minds
The last sentence actually makes it clear what 'umme' is referring to; it is those who do not know about the book, they learn of it from ramblings and only guess about it. Thus they are not familiar with the divine precepts."
Joe
well, The jews described Quraish as Ummioon and that is after Quraish received the Quran, I really don?t understand why you are mnaking it too hard to understand, the religion of Islam is simple and easy bro. what you are saying is nothing but puzzles and vague views that comply with only non sense
the word Ummin is Unlattered, and it means any of the followings
- one who does not know how to read nor write
- one who knows how to read but not write
Salam
-
it was a question, not an argument. get your mind right, son
back to silly name calling again?
so you called me Ahmed Bigot and I have forgiven you, now you are calling me son, would that be a complemet and my lack of english made me think that it is mocking?
sorry for calling it a silly argument, you are right it was a silly question
see, I have been to Mars because there is no evidence that I didn't go to Mars, hahahahaha
they believe one way and post what they consider evidence, and if you believe the opposite then you should post what you consider evidence. if you don't care either way who wrote it down, then that's fine too.
well, I responded the most on this thread, please get your mind right dad
-
Peace AB, Peace..
he is repeating the verse that you agreed it is not conclusive that Moghammad wrote the Quran
Hello
what I also found funny that you didn't reply to my question to your allegation in page one
so insteadd of accusing others of acting funny because they didn't not reply to others I urge you to look in the mirror
First of all I just wanted to say, I wrote some points on page 1 yesterday and when I came back to this thread late last night, it was 5 pages long. If you missed that in my post then here it is. Secondly, I pointed out that whatever I would have replied, Tanveer said it, hence the gratitude sent in his direction. But you seemed to have missed that also. Yet, you didn't reply to his point, even after he repeated it. You kept replying others, so I know you saw it, whether you read it or not, I cannot say.Finally I saw this morning that you have replied to the verse I was pointing out. But instead of explaining your point of view, you just kept calling everyone who believes that the verse indirectly says muhammad wrote quran is a "liar" and is just basing these assumptions on their "low desires". AB, how do you expect to discuss and debate with someone when you do this? Yet you cry foul out loud when others do the same to you? Perhaps you're looking for a verse that says - muhammad wrote the quran - in that case we agree there is none.
It is simple, you don't believe muhammad wrote quran by his hand, I do. That one verse (294 to me is clear cut, to you it's not. I cannot push you or force you to see something you don't want to see. So we can leave it at that. In the end, does it really matter? I mean, think about it. Do the two parties believe that quran is muhammad's concoction? No. Do we both believe quran is God's words. Yes. So how about sitting on that common ground and discuss like human beings, like muslims. handshake
Peace
-
Peace AB, Peace.
Salam Zenje
.First of all I just wanted to say, I wrote some points on page 1 yesterday and when I came back to this thread late last night, it was 5 pages long. If you missed that in my post then here it is.
ok
Secondly, I pointed out that whatever I would have replied, Tanveer said it, hence the gratitude sent in his direction. But you seemed to have missed that also. Yet, you didn't reply to his point, even after he repeated it. You kept replying others, so I know you saw it, whether you read it or not, I cannot say.
as I said I do'lt reply to him because we crossed before and I decided that I will never reply to his arguments due to the fact that I believe that he maniplulates the Arabic language due to his lack of knowledge in it, if the truth hurts then I'm sorry, this won't stop me from saying it, he just expresses his views, I will express mine and the public decide.
Finally I saw this morning that you have replied to the verse I was pointing out. But instead of explaining your point of view, you just kept calling everyone who believes that the verse indirectly says muhammad wrote quran is a "liar" and is just basing these assumptions on their "low desires".
well, I'm sorry again if the truth hurts, this is indeed how those who alleged that Mohammad wrote the Quran been described in the 254, you are just been touchy that's all, I still insist that anyone being you, my mother, my blood brother or anyone who claims that Mohammad wrote the whole the whole Quran with his own hands accoridng to 2948 is a liar, sorry again
Brother Zenje, we are not talking assumption in here, we need a verse that tells us what you claim
AB, how do you expect to discuss and debate with someone when you do this?
as I said bro, I will say the same to my father if he claims such unfounded claim and insist on it by lying about 2948 which says the opposite to the alleged claim
Yet you cry foul out loud when others do the same to you?
This is actually a lie, firstly I never cry, those who will cross the line with me I cross the line with them Tanveer did in the Muslim/Mumin thread and I replied back while the mods were watching and having fun I guess, I never go and cry to the mods on any board, on the other hand I know many in here and other boards who cried hard to the mods about me.
Perhaps you're looking for a verse that says - muhammad wrote the quran - in that case we agree there is none.
See, then what you guys claim is nothing but guessing and has to be classified as conjectires, sorry
It is simple, you don't believe muhammad wrote quran by his hand, I do.
fine, be my guest and I have no problem with that, but please don't say that the Quran said so because you agreed that there is no such verse that claims as such.
That one verse (294 to me is clear cut, to you it's not.
again the verse never said that Mohammad wrote the whole Quran with his own hands, in fact it denies that, firstly it says that Mohammad never wrote a book (any book) before then it added that if he does (i.e. wrote any book including the Quran) then the Kuffar would have doubted him, I.E. 2948 DENIES THAT MOHAMMAD WROTE THE QURAN WITH HIS OWN HANDS
I cannot push you or force you to see something you don't want to see.
Likewise
So we can leave it at that.
sure
In the end, does it really matter? I mean, think about it.
That is a question I asked SC, of course it does not matter for me, and surely it is not important to know, however when I meet others who say that 2948 claimed that Mohammad wrote the whole Quran with his own hands I have to interfer because 2948 DENIES THAT MOHAMMAD WROTE ANY BOOK INCLUDING THE QURAN WITH HIS OWN HANDS, yet you and others claim that he wrote the WHOLE QURAN with his hands accroding to 2948
Do the two parties believe that quran is muhammad's concoction? No. Do we both believe quran is God's words. Yes. So how about sitting on that common ground and discuss like human beings, like muslims. handshake
Peace
Sure, sorry if I upset you with ny brutal honesty
Salam
-
Ahmed, if Mo didn't write it, who did?
I'm sorry I have to dismiss you because you are following the footsteps of the Kafirs on faithfreedom web site and clalled Mohammad Mo
you are dismissed
-
Peace AB,
as I said I do'lt reply to him because we crossed before and I decided that I will never reply to his arguments...
I did not know that. Also I haven't been following the muslim/mumin thread you talked about. Now I know your feeling on this issue, lets move on. )well, I'm sorry again if the truth hurts, this is indeed how those who alleged that Mohammad wrote the Quran been described in the 254, you are just been touchy that's all, I still insist that anyone being you, my mother, my blood brother or anyone who claims that Mohammad wrote the whole the whole Quran with his own hands accoridng to 2948 is a liar, sorry again
This is wrong IMO. I think you know what a "liar" is. You don't know this of me. This is my understanding of the verse, hey maybe if you could explain it without those terms I might even come to a better understanding.Lie = A false statement deliberately presented as being true; a falsehood. Something meant to deceive or give a wrong impression.
Liar = A person who lies.Perhaps you're looking for a different word, but I take that word very seriously if someone accuses me of such. It's not about hurting my feeling, so saying the 'truth hurts', doesn't mean anything. Infact, if anything, THAT is a lie.
Quote from zenje on Today at 034647 AM
Yet you cry foul out loud when others do the same to you?This is actually a lie, firstly I never cry, those who will cross the line with me I cross the line with them Tanveer did in the Muslim/Mumin thread and I replied back while the mods were watching and having fun I guess, I never go and cry to the mods on any board, on the other hand I know many in here and other boards who cried hard to the mods about me.
I take it you don't understand that phrase - to cry foul. So no need to call me a liar and jump to conclusions. This is the statement, on this same thread, that I was talking about...Yep let's turn the subject to defame Ahmed, lol, I knew it it it will happen...
That's crying foul. I'm sure you've watched a soccer game (especially Italy in world cup), when they get tackled and the lie down on the ground showing their in lots of pain, when truly they're not. And not 2 minutes before he did tha same thing to another player. Yes, thats you crying foul. It doesn't mean you have actual tears, or that you went crying to the mods.Back to the issue at hand...
again the verse never said that Mohammad wrote the whole Quran with his own hands, in fact it denies that, firstly it says that Mohammad never wrote a book (any book) before then it added that if he does (i.e. wrote any book including the Quran) then the Kuffar would have doubted him, I.E. 2948 DENIES THAT MOHAMMAD WROTE THE QURAN WITH HIS OWN HANDS
How? Again, I can understand why you think the verse doesn't confirm it, but how does the verse DENY it? ???- You were not reciting any scripture before this, nor were you writing one down by your hand. In that case, the doubters would have had reason.
Here's my understanding - He could neither recite/read or write before this. Now (at that time) he can.
Let me understand your position first - (1) could Muhammad READ? After the revelation that is (I think before is clear). (2) Was quran written during his lifetime? Yes or no answer will suffice.
Thanks. peace