Muhammad Wrote the quran

TheNabi

Peace Ahmed

I will have to agree that some do because I do. I do not think I am ignorant because I do so. I may be enlightened because I do. Apparently you seem to think you have the correct answer so I think I can safely assume you can guide us all to the promised land.

we are talking writing not reading

This is a quote from the link which you will not visit

In al-quran there is a challenge put forth to those who would seek to disavow al-quran's divine inspiration. It is made clear that nobody will be able to produce such a reading however.

"And if you are in doubt as to that which We have revealed to our servant, then produce a chapter like it and call on your helpers besides Allah if you are truthful. But if you do (it) not - and you can never do (it) - then be on you guard against the fire whose fuel is men and stones; it is prepared for the disbelievers. (223-24)

Since no man should be able to produce a writ such as al-quran then there should be no doubt that such a reading is from the divine. Chapter 29 verse 48 seems to make it apparent that the prophet/messenger could read and write because it is declared the Muhammad could not produce a writ such as al-quran by his own means. We already know that no man can do such by their own means because of verses 23-24 of chapter 2.

And thou didst not recite before it any book, nor didst thou transcribe one with thy right hand, for then could the liars have doubted. (294

Thus we are presented with the fact that the prophet/messenger never transcribed or recited such a revelation by his own means for if he did the liars would have a just reason to doubt that al-quran was from God. Since nobody can produce such a revelation (see 223-24) we know that it was not written by Muhammad from his own means, nor did he ever have the means to produce any other scripture."

You need to back up your claim that the word Ummi means as such from the Quran

In the link I posted which you will not visit it states

"Regarding the word 'umme' the following verses will be used to back up my view that it refers to one who has not dealt with divine wisdom and/or decrees.

And when they meet those who believe they say, We believe, and when they are apart with one another they say, Do you talk to them of what Allah has disclosed to you that they may contend with you by this before your Lord? Do you not understand? Do they not know that Allah knows what they keep secret and what they make known? And some of them are illiterate; they know not the Book but only (from) heresay, and they do but conjecture. (276-7

Here we have the 'umme' among those who conceal the truth, keeping it among themselves as if they own it. The last sentence actually makes it clear what 'umme' is referring to; it is those who do not know about the book, they learn of it from ramblings and only guess about it. Thus they are not familiar with the divine precepts."

Joe

zenje

I nominate this - the thread that grew the fastest.

I just wanted to say thanks Tanveer for answering the question. What I found funny was how all your posts were ignored by the person who asked! D

PEACE

siki

Me too yes,, finds , Tanveer's arguments convincing.

siki

honor

Salam All sun

Okay, I hate to kinda drive this subject a little of course, but I read some of what was posted here, and now it makes me have some questions

Question If the prophets companions, wrote down all that he recited over a course of time that it was revealed to him, and then after his death, it was compiled into a book=Quran. Then, how come we do not follow the hadiths? Are they not the same as companions writing down the ways, and examples of the prophet over a period of time, and then after his death, putting them into books? Not that I think its precisely the same, nor do I think we should believe in hadiths,..but it seems confusing to me, the whole issue of the Quran being compiled after the prophets death?? I mean I know the difference in hadiths vs Quran. Quran was inspired directly from God, and hadiths were not. So theres no argument there, but again...the confusion lies, in getting people to understand why we believe in the quran, when it was compiled after the prophets death, such as the hadith. Also, does anyone knows the year (est) that the first compiled Quran came out and also the year(est) the first compiled hadith came out, all after the prophets death?

Any Ideas? Opinions? Answers? Findings?

Honor

siki

Peace Honor

The ahadith were compiled by Persians in Persia (All 10 of them) two centuries after the death of prophet , on hearsay coming through 7th generation, Their Frozen brains could not comprehend , as to why no Arab dared to collect/write such a writing.

The collectors themselves rejected 99% of their initial collection dismissing them as False, at best you can speculate about the rest. That shows inaccuracy of data collected through a certain method.

Even if some of them are authentic , we don't need them , because the only thing they have done or would do is freeze the last system of God, back in time 1400 years ago, where as it is suppose to serve the Mankind for all the times to come.

The case of Quran is different , Mohammad probably did write it with his own hands on different kind of objects, but it was after his death in khalifa Uthman's time , that it was compiled in a book format in the present order.

i hope this helps

peace

siki

savage_carrot

Well this thread grew overnight like a beanstalk.

there is a fact that can't be ignored, we know for certain that Mohammad didn't know who to write till the Quran revelation, do you agree?

Irrelevant to my comment.

ane the relevence of that exactly?. i mean we are only contributing to conjectures, right?. wasn't that the same the sunni did?

It's thinking about possibilities and not saying that whatever conclusion we infer according to the evidence isn't subject to change with new evidence/information/knowledge as in the case of someone who might call their hadith divine and not changeable. Thus there is a big difference.

what the difference between the Muslims who do not care which human wrote the Quran, and those who believe Mohammad wrote it, and those who believe Mohammad never wrote it?

Relevance of that to my comment?

Oh Please, don't be emotional, try to be logical,

Right.

Samia came up with a story that the prophet write Be Ism as Bism, she never provided any evidence that the prophet did so though, therefore I'm not going to refute her conjectires until she provide her evidences that the prophet did so, sorry

She gave reasoning, not a story that's divine. You should be trying to refute her reasoning if you think otherwise.

well, don't ask others to refute others then, please dont be emotional, try to stay logical

That's just ironic.

Munshi

Salaam Tanveer

Many thanks for your reply, it is really helpful.

Thanks to Ahmed, as his arguements are same as I would be facing from my freind, he has already prepared me in advance.Ahmed , do u have anything mre to say on Tanveer's explanation , please comment

arnoldyasin

Peace,

I want just to mention this, we all agree that the Quran was revealed by God, so when we say 'Muhammed wrote the Quran' means only that he wrote down the Revelation he received, it doesn't mean he made up the Revelation himself. Because I believe some people are confusing the two, if not, then ignore me P. The discussion is

Muhammed received the Revelation and let scribes wrote it down for him, as he himself could not write.
Muhammed could read and write, and also wrote down the Revelation himself, and of course was assisted time by time.

In both cases it still God who send the Revelation.

Samia

Narrated by Samia

God says
278 "among them are ummiyyuun they do not know the scripture but false desires"

This is a direct definition of ummi Not knowing the Scripture. The verse tells about the Jews (who call non-jews ummi or gentile). God is telling them that even among them there are gentiles (those who write things and say they are from God). So it is not about not being a Jew, but about not knowing the scripture nor following it. "illiterate" does not fit here.

375 "Among the people of the scripture are those who, if you entrust them with a big amount of (anything) will readily give it back to you, and those who, if you entrust them with one coin, will not repay it unless you continue asking, that's because they say "we are not to blame as far as the ummiyyuun are concerned", telling lies about God".

illiterate or gentile?

622 It is He who sent among the ummiyyiin a messenger from among themselves, to recite to them His verses, purify them and teach them the scripture (The Book) and wisdom.."

If they were all illiterate, he should first teach them how to read and write...oops, he is one of them, so how can he find help from among them to write down the Revelation?

255

The verb in bold should be read as (uktutibaha) not (iktatabaha) as prevailing. This is why

If it is (iktatabaha), which means he had someone write it, why is it connected in as an implication that it was dictated to him? He should be the one dictating it. You dictate, some one writes = you are making some one write something (taktatatib ) he is (uktutib made to write). Since the other verb is (tumla 3alaihi he is being dictated), then this implies that he is (uktutib the verses uktutibaha). The problem of vocalization is in this verb, not the verb (dictated tumla 3alaihi), and here is why

The verb (tumla 3alaihi) can only be in the passive, because the active form is written differently and without the preposition (3alaihi), unless another word is mentioned (3alaa the writers/the others/ someone whatsoever).

unknownuser

I nominate this - the thread that grew the fastest.

I just wanted to say thanks Tanveer for answering the question. What I found funny was how all your posts were ignored by the person who asked!

PEACE

Salam

Nice one

he is repeating the verse that you agreed it is not conclusive that Moghammad wrote the Quran

I dont waste y time with those who keep repeating their non sensible argument, simply I dismiss them

salam

unknownuser

Salaam Tanveer

Many thanks for your reply, it is really helpful.

Thanks to Ahmed, as his arguements are same as I would be facing from my freind, he has already prepared me in advance.Ahmed , do u have anything mre to say on Tanveer's explanation , please comment

I donlt resply to tanveer I dinmsised him ages ago

how about you repeat the argument in your own words and I will show you that it is nothing but conjectures?

Salam

unknownuser

Peace,

I want just to mention this, we all agree that the Quran was revealed by God, so when we say 'Muhammed wrote the Quran' means only that he wrote down the Revelation he received, it doesn't mean he made up the Revelation himself. Because I believe some people are confusing the two, if not, then ignore me P. The discussion is

Muhammed received the Revelation and let scribes wrote it down for him, as he himself could not write.
Muhammed could read and write, and also wrote down the Revelation himself, and of course was assisted time by time.

In both cases it still God who send the Revelation.

More conjectures?

unknownuser

Well this thread grew overnight like a beanstalk.
Irrelevant to my comment.

You actually preseneted no argument other than emotional gesture

It's thinking about possibilities and not saying that whatever conclusion we infer according to the evidence isn't subject to change with new evidence/information/knowledge as in the case of someone who might call their hadith divine and not changeable. Thus there is a big difference.

and the relevence is?. why you want to speculate someting that will neber be known?

that is exactly what thye sunni did, right?

Relevance of that to my comment?
Right.
She gave reasoning, not a story that's divine. You should be trying to refute her reasoning if you think otherwise.
That's just ironic.

again in her hadith, she claimed the prophet wrote Be Ism as Bism, I'm still waiting for the evdinece that the prophet did so, till then it will stay as conjectures like like the conjectures by the sunni

Salam

unknownuser

Peace all,

but it was after his death in khalifa Uthman's time, that it was compiled in a book format in the present order.

The above is incorrect. The Qur'aan was in a book form (written AND compiled in book form) during the time of the Prophet. Please re-read the article I referenced earlier for proofs from al-qur'aan. Sister Honor's post indicates that she also has not read the referenced article which corrects some of her misunderstandings

http//free-minds.org/books/wadud_05.htm

The ahadith were compiled by Persians in Persia (All 10 of them) two centuries after the death of prophet , on hearsay coming through 7th generation, Their Frozen brains could not comprehend , as to why no Arab dared to collect/write such a writing.

Yes, but the first ahadeeth were written about 80-100 years after the death of the Prophet, and then compiled in book form about 200 years after his death.

Thus there is a huge difference

The Qur'aan was written AND compiled in book form during the life of the Prophet.

The unverifiable hearsays claimed to be ahadeeth of the Prophet were first written down 80-100 years after his death and started being compiled in book form about 200 years after his death. No ahadeeth were written down during the Prophet's life and during the time of the four caliphs. Ibn Shihab al-Zuhri, is among those who first transcribed ahadeeth at the behest of Umayyad caliph Umar II (d.720). Please see the following

http//free-minds.org/articles/hadith/hadithhistory.htm

http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_Shihab_al-Zuhri

unknownuser

Hello all

Let me start by refuting the non sense by some ignorant Muslims that Mohammad wr0te the Quran with his own hands according to 255

We need to have a look at 254-5 together

4 And those who disbelieve say This is nothing but a lie which he has forged, and other people have helped him at it; so indeed they have done injustice and (uttered) a falsehood.

5- And they say The stories of the ancients-- he has got them written-- so these are read out to him morning and evening.?

(4)
(5)

-> When Mohammad came up with the Quran the kafiroon disbelieved him then they started a propaganda war to discredit Mohammad, one of the things they claimed is as follow as seen in 254 ? And those who disbelieve say This is nothing but a lie which he has forged, and other people have helped him at it?, they also claimed the following in 255 ? And they say The stories of the ancients-- he has got them written-- so these are read out to him morning and evening.?

Now the same ignorant Muslims who rejected the claim by the Kuffar in 254 that ? This is nothing but a lie which he has forged, and other people have helped him at it? accepted the other claim by the Kuffar that ? he has got them written?, can you see how Shakir translated it, ? he has got them written?, that is exactly what the word ??, ?Iktatbaha?, i.e. ?made someone else to write it?, if it was him who wrote it then the word must be ?Katabaha? not Ikitatabaha?

Regardless of what Iktatabaha means, this is a lie by the kuffar as the other lie they said in the previous verse i.e. the following two claims by the Kuffar are nothing but ies

254 ? And those who disbelieve say This is nothing but a lie which he has forged, and other people have helped him at it?
255 ? And they say The stories of the ancients-- he has got them written-- so these are read out to him morning and evening.?

However, some ignorant Muslims picked and chose 255 ?The lie by the Kuffar? as a conclusive evidnece that Mohammad wrote the whole Quran with his own hands

Let me ask those ignorant Muslims, if they take the claim by the Kuffar in 255 as truthful, why the hell they don?t tale the other claim by the kuffar in 254 as truthful?

Whoever claim this non sense about 255 has been exposed

Salam

AaRoN

It is said that Ibn Shibab had an extraordinary memory - he memorized the Qur?an before he was seven in only eight days, and he was eighteen years old when he began to do ijtihad. There was nothing he would forget after having learned it ?I have betrayed nothing which Allah put in my heart as a trust?, he used to say.

in eight days before he was seven hey? sounds like myth to me

am i supposed to take anything relating to this person seriously?

this is evidence of when ahadith began to be compiled? come on

shall we replace one garbage history with another? i hope not.

unknownuser

Let me now reply to 2948

And you did not recite before it any book, nor did you transcribe one with your right hand, for then could those who say untrue things have doubted.

(4

Clearly it says ? ?, ? And you did not recite before it any book,?, i.e. Mohammad never read a book before, then it says ? ?, ? nor did you transcribe one with your right hand?, some ignorant Muslims deceive others by severely manipulating 2948 and lie saying, Mohammad knew how to write, obviously this means that Mohammad also knew how to read, they also lie and say the he even wrote the Quran with his own hands before he died, this is an obvious clear cut lie that they only cooked to serve their low desires, Allah clearly told us that Mohammad did not know how to read nor write up to the Quran revelation then we were NOT told that the revelation that he learnt how to write then write the Quran, the ignorant on the other hand say but 2948 stated that HE DIDN?T WRITE PREVIOUS SCRIPTURES BEFORE, total non sense because if the BOOK was mentioned without the ?Al? i.e. ?THE? then it is called Nakirah, i.e. UNKNOWN. i.e. ANY BOOK that you can think of, here it is again ? ?, ?Min Kitab?, NOT ?Min AL Kitab?, therefore Allah clearly means Mohammad never wrote or read any book before the Quran revelation. (any book you can think of including scriptures - UNKNOWN), Allah never told us that after the revelation Mohammad learnt how to write and write the whole Quran with his own hands, whoever claim that is a clear cut liar because Allah never said so

Salam

unknownuser

Peace all,

2947 And similarly, We have sent down to you the Book (al-kitaab). Thus, those whom We have given the Scripture will believe in it. Also, some of your people will believe in it. The only ones who mock Our revelations are the rejecters.
2948 You were not reciting any book before this, nor were you writing one down by your hand. In that case, the doubters would have had reason.

It is obvious here tht 2947 is referring to the Qur'aan by "the Book"/al-kitaab, and thus "before this"/qablihi in 2948 means "before this Book (the Qur'aan)". 2948, therefore, means that the Prophet never wrote a book by his hand before the Qur'aan, which clearly indicates that the Prophet wrote this book (the Qur'aan) with his hand.

If I make a statement about any of you in reference to a certain book that "you never wrote a book with your hand before this book", it can only mean that you wrote this book with your hand. Even a 5th grader can comprehend that, unlike someone here who probably needs a brain transplant !

As far as 255 is concerned, Samia had the foresight to anticipate the above post about 255, and she had already posted its refutation in an earlier post (see Samia's last post above) !

AaRoN

t l w - 1
t l w - 2
t l w - 3

seems to me that this root can also mean follow... has anyone even bothered to investigate or suppose that perhaps it isn't talking about reciting at all, but following instead?

perhaps it is saying to the addressee that said addressee never followed prior to this

so perhaps verse chopping is totally out of order since it has other possible meanings than what everyone is trying to make it say

so much for definitive proof... not like anyone can prove anything to anyone else anyways... if someone doesn't want to believe, they simply won't )

enjoy

unknownuser

Peace all,

The above is a red herring and has no bearing on the current discussion. The relevant word in 2948 is "takhuttuhu" from the root "kha-tay-tay". The discussion is about writing the Qur'aan, not "TLW" of the Qur'aan.

If I tell you "you have never written a book before this book", it can only mean that you have written this book.