Kaaba again - destroy idols
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Salam
I wonder what will happen to someone who will smash to pieces the footprints of Ibrahim and shatter to bits the black stones claiming they are idols?
What do you think? And what will be the implications for the Hajj and Islam?
This question is being proposed as an exam question in an RE exam in the UK. (RE = Religious Education) -
What will happen to them is exactly what was supposed to have happened to Ibraheem when he smashed the idols put on fire (whatever that means). Hpefully God will order this "fire" to be cool and safe pr, so nothing will happen to them!!
What on earth does the ka'ba has to do with idols?
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Ibrahim "physically destroys idols / physical statue" to prove a point..
Not a meaningless rant or a show of force.
The problems of idol worshipping actually lies on the "human head" (perception) and heart (feeling), not the physical idol or statue per se..Salam
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Peace Jafar,
Ibrahim "physically destroys idols / physical statue" to prove a point..
Not a meaningless rant or a show of force.
The problems of idol worshipping actually lies on the "human head" (perception) and heart (feeling), not the physical idol or statue per se..You are right. This is why if Ibrahim came today and destroys the black cube, the black stone, the footprint and the rock in the dome of the rock, he will experience the same reaction from sectarians as he experienced from his people. Indeed, their hearts are alike. They both imagine that those useless inert stones are somehow special.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Jafar,
You are right. This is why if Ibrahim came today and destroys the black cube, the black stone, the footprint and the rock in the dome of the rock, he will experience the same reaction from sectarians as he experienced from his people. Indeed, their hearts are alike. They both imagine that those useless inert stones are somehow special.
Peace,
Ayman
Salam,
Ibrahim built ka'bah as a place of worship. He wouldn't destroy what he built. If prophet feared that his people will worship the blackstone, he wouldn't think twice about destroying it. It's a non-issue.
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Peace Hajirfm,
Ibrahim built ka'bah as a place of worship. He wouldn't destroy what he built.
No Ibrahim didn't build it. The object named Kaabah that you see was built by the Saudis in 1996. This is a fact.
If prophet feared that his people will worship the blackstone, he wouldn't think twice about destroying it. It's a non-issue.
The fact is that the so called Black Stone is indeed destroyed. The name Black Stone is actually a misnomer. It is actually several small stones and fragments glued together with a reddish epoxy and tied with a silver strap.
Please learn first about such pagan objects before defending them in public.
Peace,
Ayman
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Salam,
Ibrahim built ka'bah as a place of worship. He wouldn't destroy what he built. If prophet feared that his people will worship the blackstone, he wouldn't think twice about destroying it. It's a non-issue.
Welcome to the forum hajirfm, I have a feeing that you are hajirffi, please correct me if I'm wrong
Llet me tell you something about this place, firstly you will be classified as a clear cut sunni and an idol worshipper, secondly Al Masjid Al Haram is not a mosque rather a status in your mind, Isa had a bilogical father, Noah didnt live 950 years, Moses didn't struck the sea to split it, Shahr (month) means (Full Moon), hell does not exist, paradise does not exist, and whatever is the opposite to the Quran you will read it right here, so be prepared for a fight that is more vicious than fighting on ffi, this is because those in here are calling themselves Muslims and Quran believers
Welcome to FM again
Take care
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Peace
Apart from the seriousness of the subjects discussed, I find this forum pretty entertaining.
Idols are not necessarily physical objects but are also constructs of the mind.
When I follow blindly a scholar, I idolize him/her. If I love a pop star and copycat her/him, I idolize that person.
It is my belief that we go back to the source of Islam, and there are two things available A book The Quran, and Ourselves.
Every night we get reprogrammed by Allah to follow guidance, and every morning our habits and conditioning get bootstrapped and take over.
It takes incredible discipline to erase one's personal history and follow the guidance.
I am not an advocate of Hadeeth, but I know a bit as I studied them, one Hadith comes to mind
"Islam came strange and will again become strange, Glad tidings to the strangers..." - reported to Mohammed (pbuh).
This is beyond what is customary, and transcends it...
We have the Guidance in ourselves but we choose (freedom of choice) not to follow Allah's call most of the time.
How can we conceive and even accept that Allah is completely different from us, yet made us?...
We want tangible things, stones, father figures, gadgets because we cling to Earth.
We like to follow Scholars because we are lazy and do not want to know for ourselves what the Truth is...
To go back to FM, there are different views, and some of them are incorrect...
I got into debates with a few here about those "interpretations".
Emotions tend to run high because of what is at stake. What is sad is that usually it is not Salvation that we worry about, but being right no matter what.
This is why we will keep on being on the fence, never achieving anything... The state of the Islamic Community, deeply entrenched in the middle and even dark ages...
God bless
Noble -
Good post noble, I tend to agree. Good to see you back. Peace.
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No Ibrahim didn't build it. The object named Kaabah that you see was built by the Saudis in 1996. This is a fact.
This is by no means a fact, if the Saudis built it in 1996 how do you explain this?
http//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/24/Kaba.jpg
This picture was taken in 1880
If you're referring to it's reconstruction then you're being very misleading, the reconstruction even used the same stones, which isn't a surprise, or are you going to make a conspiracy theory stating that devil stones imported from Cuba were specifically used.
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This is by no means a fact, if the Saudis built it in 1996 how do you explain this?
http//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/24/Kaba.jpg
This picture was taken in 1880
If you're referring to it's reconstruction then you're being very misleading, the reconstruction even used the same stones, which isn't a surprise, or are you going to make a conspiracy theory stating that devil stones imported from Cuba were specifically used.
bravo bravo bravo
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the reconstruction even used the same stones
But why the same stones?
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Peace
Of course there was a Kaaba in Maccah before 1996 (actually my mother went for Hajj three times in the late 70's and early 80's).
And my point is that it doesn't matter, even if there was one million Kaaba or none... What is important and vital is the foundation of your faith ('aakida in Arabic)...
If there is no foundation, it does not matter how much we pray or act, it will be just for us, and most probably in vain...
We need to have the courage to examine what we are doing and investigate if it is sound or not, and my complaint is with this system of Islamic Scholarship and Fatwas, it will not happen. Scholars were just students in Religious Schools who were brainwashed with a story and interpretation of The Quran. That does not mean they got it right.
As for the photograph you presented as proof it is unacceptable, as these exhibits can be so easily forged, but as I said, for me, I have no issue about Kaaba existence as built by Arabs in the area.
I have more faith in Archaeological findings though...
What is at stake is the legitimacy of the Kaaba as described by Scholars' interpretations and guidelines for rites of pilgrimage to Muslims...
And even beyond that other aspects of the faith...
What I accept is that The Quran have it all, so let us use it, as Allah instructs us.
Salam
Noble -
Peace Al-Quraishi,
This is by no means a fact, if the Saudis built it in 1996 how do you explain this? This picture was taken in 1880
It is a clear indisputable fact that the present building named Kaaba was not built by Ibrahim. The building that you see today in Mecca is not even the same building as the picture. The building in the picture was torn down and then the Saudis built the current building in 1996. After completing the building they told people this structure that we just finished building now is your Kaaba.
If you're referring to it's reconstruction then you're being very misleading, the reconstruction even used the same stones, which isn't a surprise, or are you going to make a conspiracy theory stating that devil stones imported from Cuba were specifically used.
What difference does it make if it is the "same stones"? Do you think that those stones are special? Don't you think that stones wear down and get destroyed and have to be replaced? Do you think that those stones are somehow eternal? Maybe like many sectarians, you have some kind of fetish for stones http//img261.imageshack.us/img261/1374/stonehugji3.gif. There is no other explanation for an intelligent person like you having his logic clouded and disputing such clear facts.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Noble,
Of course there was a Kaaba in Maccah before 1996 (actually my mother went for Hajj three times in the late 70's and early 80's).
If you take the word "kaaba" as the name of a specifc object then that object after 1996 is certainly no the same one prior to 1996. The only way that "kaaba" can be the same is if you take "kaaba" as a concept and not the proper name of a specific object. But in this case, you must translate it because unlike the meaningless label of an object, a concept has a meaning.
And my point is that it doesn't matter, even if there was one million Kaaba or none... What is important and vital is the foundation of your faith ('aakida in Arabic)...
If there is no foundation, it does not matter how much we pray or act, it will be just for us, and most probably in vain...
We need to have the courage to examine what we are doing and investigate if it is sound or not, and my complaint is with this system of Islamic Scholarship and Fatwas, it will not happen. Scholars were just students in Religious Schools who were brainwashed with a story and interpretation of The Quran. That does not mean they got it right.
As for the photograph you presented as proof it is unacceptable, as these exhibits can be so easily forged, but as I said, for me, I have no issue about Kaaba existence as built by Arabs in the area.
I have more faith in Archaeological findings though...
What is at stake is the legitimacy of the Kaaba as described by Scholars' interpretations and guidelines for rites of pilgrimage to Muslims...
And even beyond that other aspects of the faith...
What I accept is that The Quran have it all, so let us use it, as Allah instructs us.Of course so-called Islamic Scholars don't want us to know the meaning of the concept "kaaba" so that, as you say, we examine what we are doing and investigate if it is sound or not. Hence, none of the people here defending pagan stone idols know its meaning and hence they are unable to translate it. You will also find that people defending such inert pagan stone symbols are the most ignorant about them.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Ayman,
yes the divination of physical objects is a cardinal issue isn't it.
so is the divination of concepts too...
and attachments, oh those attachments, the secret weapons of the Ego...
may Allah open our hearts for more understanding, knowledge and wisdom...
God bless
Noble -
Ka'bah has a specefic definition it's a cube-shaped building that is located in Makkah. Yes the building has been rebuilt several times and other stones may have been used in its reconstruction. That's not the issue. If you renovate your house, it's still your house and we are not going to refer to it as anything else. I don't know any muslims who worship the stones. We are also not worshiping the Quran when we are reading the book or handling the book with respect and care (for example we don't any other book above the Quran in our homes). We are also not worshiping our parents' hands when we kiss their hands.
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Ka'bah has a specefic definition it's a cube-shaped building that is located in Makkah. Yes the building has been rebuilt several times and other stones may have been used in its reconstruction. That's not the issue. If you renovate your house, it's still your house and we are not going to refer to it as anything else. I don't know any muslims who worship the stones. We are also not worshiping the Quran when we are reading the book or handling the book with respect and care (for example we don't any other book above the Quran in our homes). We are also not worshiping our parents' hands when we kiss their hands.
You correctly defined it. What's its significance? What is so important about a cube-shaped building in Makkah? Do you equate its importance to you with that of your own home, your parents and the book that guides you? If yes, how?