Kaaba again - destroy idols
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Its always dangerous and cultish when someone uses verses to justify the hypocrisy/unbelief of others......
Are all sunnis/shiahs doomeed or hypocrites tanveer?
ps; what is the difference between 'brick/idol worship' and 'book (quran/clergy/academics.) worship'? -
Peace All
Yes this is a very controversial issue... I think it also has to do with our viewing things and concepts has evolved (maybe not for the better) compared to the Prophet's folks.
For starters there is the influence of Greek Philosophy and Logic (espoused by the West) thanks to the Muslims by the way who preserved it for them...
That being said Scientific Method is a good tool to prove or disprove statements.
Archeology and Anthropology are good ones, and as I said before, if it were allowed, I am extremely curious what the digging in Makkah will show up... They will never allow it though...
What is sure is that Allah commanded the Muslims to pray towards a Qiblah (an analysis says Jerusalem, then Makkah, then Jerusalem), as evidence there are old mosques of the seventh and eighth centuries that are directed towards Jerusalem.
Since there is no clear cut names in The Quran at where the Qiblah is, and that Allah clearly states that to please the Prophet He chose for him a Qiblah that he will be happy with, it might be a matter of choice for the Muslim Community to choose their Qiblah.
Since they chose Makkah, then Makkah it is.
Still there are some rules, and among those clearing it and purifying of idols, which might include removing the black stones and destroying the Cube, the Qiblah is a location, not a building. -
Peace all,
Wow, and here I was thinking people are not paying any attention to the signs from The God ! So alhamdulillah there is still hope !
After posting The God's words over and over again and noticing some people not considering them enough proof, I decided to post the signs on hypocrisy. They were not directed at anyone specifically but meant to serve as a reminder in general and a jolt to reality, and directed at only those people who say they are "muslims" yet refuse to accept The God's signs as proofs.
Some people keep asking for proofs and when the clear proof is given to them directly from The God's words, it is not enough. I wonder why such people keep calling themselves "muslims" brickwall
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Salam Hajir
I actually believe that you are a woman, sorry if you are not, I just found you very kind as most women are (this is from FFI not in here), anyway, yes it is hard in here due to the amount of allegations they spew, however believe me mate it is so easy to slam dunk them if you know the Quran and its language well, most in here dont even talk Arabic and just follow english translation that they feel comfy with, so take the passenger seat and watch for a while, but please step in to drive if you feel you can give me a hand or give other sincere Muslims like Ra-jah, Quraishi, and StillLearnung, (i'm sure there are more but can't recall their names), just keep in mind that they dont use haidth in here, so no hadith evidences should be used, however I agree with you heart and soul that there numerous great teachings and explanations in the hadith, what I have learnt from my internet debate that is going for at least 4 years thatsimply never use the hadith as a source of evidences in debates with Muslims or non Muslims, we can use the hadith if two Muslims just having a discussion and both of them agree about the morals and principals in the hadith as well agree that many of the hadith is corrupt
Tale care
Salam Ahmed, I am your brother in Islam. However I take it as a compliment that you found me a kind person; you should talk to my wife and convince her of this fact angel
There are five pillars to Islam and it's sad that this enemy within has started to tackle Jihad and now Hajj. Then they go out of their way to make sense of Hajj and come up with stupidest explanations that can only satisfy themselves. Here is a verse that fits them well
- When it is said to them "Believe as the others believe" They say "Shall we believe as the fools believe?" Nay, of a surety they are the fools, but they do not know.
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Salaam,
- When it is said to them "Believe as the others believe" They say "Shall we believe as the fools believe?" Nay, of a surety they are the fools, but they do not know.
Beautiful verse, MashaAllah. These people are also
218 Deaf, dumb and blind of Reason! They will not return to begin their journey in the right direction.
Allah has also said about such people
822 The worst of creations in the Sight of Allah are those deaf, those dumb who do not use their intellect
May God give some wisdom to all of us.
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Peace
For me quite the opposite, I think there is a great improvement in this Forum.
First there are not as much of these promises of hell-fire from some who do not agree with others.
Still there is still room for betterment...
So boys and girls, be nice to one another )
What we see sometimes is that there is a misconception about this forum... It is actually meant to reflect what happens in real life, with people of different opinions, interests, creeds, discussing and asking information about God Alone Quran Alone worship.
This enemy within is a laughable tirade from brothers who are frustrated that their views are not accepted.
What is worrying is that step by step this intransigence, thinking that we know it all lead to the kind of violence we see between Muslims and Muslims, Muslims and non-Muslims.
If you are so sure about your views, there is no need for spewing reams after reams of threats.
Also what do you expect, this is a web-site that do not accept the legitimacy of Hadith as being source of Law, and that The Quran is enough as it is...
What is amusing is that in the time it was revealed, the opposite was happening as people were saying The Quran was too long, and asking why the revelation was not just one sentence long, instead of one book long...
Now it seems the Muslims of the 200 years after Mohammed died decided that the Book The Quran was too short and needed many volumes of Hadith to complement it...
What you also notice is that there is an elaborate and lengthy set of excuses to justify why that is. I, for one look at it as a con, like the apologetists in Christianity justify the Trinity...
Allah's Deen is simple, but the Sectarians like to make it obscure and complex, with hundreds of rituals and practices...
The enemy within, here there is not, because this is about worshiping Allah alone using Quran alone
Mohammed is but only a Prophet, several Prophets passed out before him... If he were to be slain or killed, will you turn on your heels to your old ways? -
Peace Nabster,
Still there are some rules, and among those clearing it and purifying of idols, which might include removing the black stones and destroying the Cube, the Qiblah is a location, not a building.
An idol is something that people revere and assign to it some sort of power or make it special as far as our obligation ("deen" goes.
Per 2226, the house is a place where no partners are setup with the god (this is not a specific location).
What makes the location special? Are the rocks, dirt, water or air there somehow special or holy? Idols include special buildings or even special "locations". Focusing on a location never guided anyone. We can only focus on the truth from our Lord.
Peace,
Ayman
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hajirfm - i don't know who you are talkin to, your brother in islam ahmedbahgat is apparently no longer with us
stupidest explanations hey? bshwfk ywm aldyn when god can judge between us - i'm sure he'll be real happy about you chopping verses and applying them willy nilly to whomever you encounter P
enjoy yourself )
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Salam Ahmed, I am your brother in Islam. However I take it as a compliment that you found me a kind person; you should talk to my wife and convince her of this fact angel
There are five pillars to Islam and it's sad that this enemy within has started to tackle Jihad and now Hajj. Then they go out of their way to make sense of Hajj and come up with stupidest explanations that can only satisfy themselves. Here is a verse that fits them well
- When it is said to them "Believe as the others believe" They say "Shall we believe as the fools believe?" Nay, of a surety they are the fools, but they do not know.
Salaam hajirfm
Referring to the verse you are quoting. Who are the "others"? How and in what do they believe according to God (not to you)?
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Per 2226, the house is a place where no partners are setup with the god (this is not a specific location).
What makes the location special? Are the rocks, dirt, water or air there somehow special or holy? Idols include special buildings or even special "locations". Focusing on a location never guided anyone. We can only focus on the truth from our Lord.
Peace Ayman,
Do you agree with Wahhabists turning the place into a giant parking lot?
The destruction of Mecca Saudi hardliners are wiping out their own heritage
http//news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/article304029.ece
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Peace dude,
No I do not agree turning any place of archaeological / anthropological/ historical interest into a parking lot.
In this case the so-called Wahabbists are most certainly concerned about what these remains will show and that their lies be exposed...
It will be a great shame if we are denied a study of those remains...
Medinah I cannot dispute we have records of it with Mohammed implementing an Islamic State.
As for Makkah, it is far from obvious. If the place was so important why did Mohammad chose instead to live in Madinah. -
TAnveer
So you mean to say from last 1400 years the only MUSLIM AND MUMINS are AYMAN AND DESCIPLES. Strange very strange.
Hi all
Please elaborate, i quite don't get it. He never said that word for word. I mean, talk straight people. Don't go around in circles.
Peace all
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Peace Nabster,
An idol is something that people revere and assign to it some sort of power or make it special as far as our obligation ("deen" goes.
Per 2226, the house is a place where no partners are setup with the god (this is not a specific location).
What makes the location special? Are the rocks, dirt, water or air there somehow special or holy? Idols include special buildings or even special "locations". Focusing on a location never guided anyone. We can only focus on the truth from our Lord.
Peace,
Ayman
You mentioned 2226. How do you understand 'baytee' (My house)? God refers to something as 'My house'. Also how do you understand 171. God describes Masjid Al-aqsa as 'whose precincts We did bless'. Did God bless the rocks, dirt, water or air? Also how do you understand 2012 where Moses is ordered to take off his shoes because he was in the 'sacred' valley Tuwa. What was sacred about Tuwa? The rocks, the dirt, the water or the air? How do you understand 901 and 951-3.
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Is it possible that it was sacred because it
is a place where no partners are setup with the god
?
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Salam
I wonder what will happen to someone who will smash to pieces the footprints of Ibrahim and shatter to bits the black stones claiming they are idols?
What do you think? And what will be the implications for the Hajj and Islam?
This question is being proposed as an exam question in an RE exam in the UK. (RE = Religious Education)Salam.
And who would dare to cause that?
Sometimes i ask myself the same question, what would happen if someone did something really awful like .... well, i don't wanna give ideas, but it would start a war, a world war, an universal war, the war that would be equal to a flood from the beginning.Peace.
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Brother Alan
What are you on about? Of course it was destroyed several times, and we didnt notice any floods...
Come on, do you really believe that what they say are the foot-prints of Abraham are really his foot-prints?, after over maybe 10,000 years? Use your intelligence and common sense here...
Again there is no mention in the Quran that Qiblah has to have a specific structure, or that you must have Ibrahim footprints near it, or that you must cover it with a black cloth or again that you have black stones (supposedly coming from Paradise) you keep in enclosures to be kissed by people, and all the other rituals such as stoning of the devil, circumbulating seven times around it...
The only way we will ever get to the bottom of this is if we are allowed to make archaeological excavations around and in the site. Or maybe they are scared of what we will find (and they are), same as the Israelis are hiding the archeological results of what they have found in the caves of Khumran (Imran, the community of Zakariah Mary mother of Joseph)...
Now for your sake you need to be very careful as your post shows an unhealthy attachment to a place and a building that is as close to idol worship as close can be... -
I don't know about this argument, but the Kaabaa in Mecca is so paganistic that I doubt a neutral observer with full knowledge of Islam (excluding this, of course - within the bounds of neutrality) would EVER think that is a "holy sanctuary".
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Peace Hajirfm,
You mentioned 2226. How do you understand 'baytee' (My house)? God refers to something as 'My house'.
The god's house is any place where no partners are setup with him (see 2226). So my house is more the god's house than the house full of idols in Mecca.
Also how do you understand 171. God describes Masjid Al-aqsa as 'whose precincts We did bless'. Did God bless the rocks, dirt, water or air?
There was no structure called Masjid Al-aqsa in Jerusalem. The place where the present Masjid Al-aqsa is built used to be a garbage dump at the time of the prophet. Long after the death of the prophet, when the Jews and the Muhajirin conquered Jerusalem under king Umar I, they proceded to clean the place up and build a temple there. This is documented in archeological evidence from the era. So even sectarians know that what you call "Masjid Al-aqsa" is certainly not the real "masjid al-aqsa" talked about in the great reading. I am surprised that you don't know this fact. This is so indisputable that many sectarian jurists were forced to acknowledge that this is not a physical earthly location.
If you want to know what "al-masjid al-aqsa" means then you need to look in a Classical Arabic dictionary. You will see that the word "aqsa" means "utmost" or "farthest". The word "masjid" is of the form "mf3il" like "marji3" (source) for "ruju3" (return). We know that "sujud" in the great reading primarily means "obedience" so "masjid" is something to be obeyed or an institution of obedience. Putting those two words together we get "the utmost institution of obedience".
Also how do you understand 2012 where Moses is ordered to take off his shoes because he was in the 'sacred' valley Tuwa. What was sacred about Tuwa? The rocks, the dirt, the water or the air?
Just look up the word "tuwa" in the dictionary if you don't know what it means. You will see that it means "folded in"/"within" (see 21104 and 3967). So 2012 talks about Moses taking off his shoes because he is in the sacred valley within. Of course he doesn't need to walk to any place, it is within him where he will receive the god's message.
How do you understand 901 and 951-3.
Passages 901 and 951-3 actually completely destroy the sectarian mythology about Mecca.
Firstly, 901 doesn't tell us the name of the town where the prophet lived. It simply says "this town". The god could have easily said "Mecca" or "Jerusalem" or "Petra" or any other town that people imagine. It is amazing that for those who think, there is as much a message for us in what the god didn't say in 901 as what he said. Had the particular town been important then the god would have said its name but instead he used the generic "this town". So certainly the god is conveying to us that the town or the location where the prophet lived is not important and it doesn't matter for us.
Secondly, the god in 951-3 speaks of a town that is in the vicinity of "tin" (figs) and "zaytoon" (olives). Certainly, such crops cannot be found anywhere near Mecca but are prevelant in northern Arabia. So you really need to read passages carefully before you use them to defend the pagan center of Mecca because in reality all of the great reading undermines your arguments.
Peace,
Ayman
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Passages 901 and 951-3 actually completely destroy the sectarian mythology about Mecca.
Firstly, 901 doesn't tell us the name of the town where the prophet lived. It simply says "this town". The god could have easily said "Mecca" or "Jerusalem" or "Petra" or any other town that people imagine. It is amazing that for those who think, there is as much a message for us in what the god didn't say in 901 as what he said. Had the particular town been important then the god would have said its name but instead he used the generic "this town". So certainly the god is conveying to us that the town or the location where the prophet lived is not important and it doesn't matter for us.
Secondly, the god in 951-3 speaks of a town that is in the vicinity of "tin" (figs) and "zaytoon" (olives). Certainly, such crops cannot be found anywhere near Mecca but are prevelant in northern Arabia. So you really need to read passages carefully before you use them to defend the pagan center of Mecca because in reality all of the great reading undermines your arguments.
Peace Ayman,
Not sure how you read that Surah 95 is about figs, olives, and Mt. Sinai being in vicinity of the city where the Sacred House is located?
La oqsimu bihatha albaladi
901 I do call to witness this City;-Waanta hillun bihatha albaladi
902 And thou art a freeman of this City;-Wahatha albaladi alameeni
953 And this City of security,-Waith qala ibraheemu rabbi ijAAal hatha albalada aminan waojnubnee wabaniyya an naAAbuda alasnama
1435 Remember Abraham said "O my Lord! make this city one of peace and security and preserve me and my sons from worshipping idols.Rabbana innee askantu min thurriyyatee biwadin ghayri thee zarAAin AAinda baytika almuharrami rabbana liyuqeemoo alssalata faijAAal afidatan mina alnnasi tahwee ilayhim waorzuqhum mina alththamarati laAAallahum yashkuroona
1437 "O our Lord! I have made some of my offspring to dwell in a valley without cultivation, by Thy Sacred House; in order, O our Lord, that they may establish regular Prayer so fill the hearts of some among men with love towards them, and feed them with fruits so that they may give thanks.
Also see verses 2126-127 mentioning the same city and house (physical structure) being built.