Kaaba again - destroy idols
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Peace Noble, Alen, all,
The footprint idols near the so called Kaaba in Mecca have NOTHING to do with Ibraheem. Please see the following posts for pictures of those filthy and gloomy footprint idols, and the pagan mythology behind them
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13210.msg112329#msg112329
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13210.msg112065#msg112065
According to al-qur'aan, The "maqam" of Ibraheem is supposed to be located IN the "kaaba" (397) and not "near" or "outside" it.
A more pressing question that presents itself "What do footprints in a rock have anything to do with the functions of "7ajj" and the calling of all people?"
Such footprints are not unique or special but are typically what we find for fertility idols. According to pagan mythology, good fortune and flowers spring up in the footprints of the idol. Thus, you find such prints next to the fertility idol's sanctuary. If you look closely at the pagan footprint idols inside the so called "Maqam Ibraheem", you will see the flower motif all the way around them. Such filthy stuff has nothing to do with Abraham or al-qur'aan.
Doesn't "maqam Ibraheem" signify following the example of Abraham and destroying all the pagan idols ? If some really believe that Mecca is the location of the house, shouldn't they be purifying the place from such filthy pagan idols instead of finding excuses for them ? Where in al-qur'aan are we asked to pray behind a place called Maqam Ibraheem containing footprint idols ? What is the difference between praying towards an idol and praying to it ?
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Peace Ayman,
They are all talked about in the same sentence. This would indicate some relationship between them or are you implying that the god speaks haphazardly?
951 By the Fig and the Olive,
952 And the Mount of Sinai,
953 And this City of security,-No, the relationship is analogous to that of olive-tree fueling God?s guiding light?
2435 Allah is the light of the heavens and the earth; a likeness of His light is as a niche in which is a lamp, the lamp is in a glass, (and) the glass is as it were a brightly shining star, lit from a blessed olive-tree, neither eastern nor western, the oil whereof almost gives light though fire touch it not -- light upon light -- Allah guides to His light whom He pleases, and Allah sets forth parables for men, and Allah is Cognizant of all things.
Another possible explanation?
http//www.tolueislam.com/Parwez/expo/expo_095.htmMecca is not a city of security. Everyone on this thread would get arrested, tortured or worse if we were having this public discussion in Mecca.
No doubt majority has been led astray; however, adherence to Qur?an would make it a place of peace and security for people as per verses 901-2, 953, 1435, etc.
You can see that "zar3" involves an act of human cultivation. This doesn't mean that the valley was barren, i.e., without naturally occurring plants.
Clearly 2127 is not talking about primarily a physical structure. How can you raise the foundations FROM the house? Is it an upside-down house?
Please see 9109 to find out about what we should found our buildings on.
2126 And remember Abraham said "My Lord, make this a City of Peace, and feed its people with fruits,-such of them as believe in Allah and the Last Day." He said "(Yea), and such as reject Faith,-for a while will I grant them their pleasure, but will soon drive them to the torment of Fire,- an evil destination (indeed)!"
2127 And remember Abraham and Isma'il raised the foundations of the House (With this prayer) "Our Lord! Accept (this service) from us For Thou art the All-Hearing, the All-knowing.
9109 talks about building a ?spiritual" not ?physical" foundation (different events) and as you have already stated living, cultivating, are in physical city/valley?
1437 "O our Lord! I have made some of my offspring to dwell in a valley without cultivation, by Thy Sacred House; in order, O our Lord, that they may establish regular Prayer
Peace
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Peace Noble, Alen, all,
The footprint idols near the so called Kaaba in Mecca have NOTHING to do with Ibraheem. Please see the following posts for pictures of those filthy and gloomy footprint idols, and the pagan mythology behind them
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13210.msg112329#msg112329
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13210.msg112065#msg112065
According to al-qur'aan, The "maqam" of Ibraheem is supposed to be located IN the "kaaba" (397) and not "near" or "outside" it.
A more pressing question that presents itself "What do footprints in a rock have anything to do with the functions of "7ajj" and the calling of all people?"
Such footprints are not unique or special but are typically what we find for fertility idols. According to pagan mythology, good fortune and flowers spring up in the footprints of the idol. Thus, you find such prints next to the fertility idol's sanctuary. If you look closely at the pagan footprint idols inside the so called "Maqam Ibraheem", you will see the flower motif all the way around them. Such filthy stuff has nothing to do with Abraham or al-qur'aan.
Doesn't "maqam Ibraheem" signify following the example of Abraham and destroying all the pagan idols ? If some really believe that Mecca is the location of the house, shouldn't they be purifying the place from such filthy pagan idols instead of finding excuses for them ? Where in al-qur'aan are we asked to pray behind a place called Maqam Ibraheem containing footprint idols ? What is the difference between praying towards an idol and praying to it ?Salam.
Trust me, brother Tanveer, i agree with you 100%.
Peace.
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Peace
I can appreciate why there is the saying "Patient as a Prophet", and also why Allah told Mohammed's followers (and rejectors) were they going to make his life as hard as Moses? (when the Children of Israel kept on harassing him with questions and stupid comments).
Oki Nun de Plume (nice nick btw)
Allah is the only one who allows himself to swear by his Creation (we are not allowed as it is idolatry)-
Despite that people still do, some will swear by their children, their possessions, some idols etc... All the objects they swear by are important to them, and convey a sense of importance to the recipient, so that the recipient believes them.
Fig trees and Olives were and still are an important part of the livelihood of Mediterranean countries and countries climate allows that these grow (such as Palestine and the vicinity of Jerusalem), but not Makkah. Allah swears by the Fig tree and the olive to people who appreciate the importance of those two plants, how best to appreciate if your livelihood depends on them? He is most definitely addressing an audience who lives in the vicinity of PALESTINE and not Makkah...
same with using Olive Oil to convey the likeness of the light of Allah...
kappich
have a nice day -
Peace
I can appreciate why there is the saying "Patient as a Prophet", and also why Allah told Mohammed's followers (and rejectors) were they going to make his life as hard as Moses? (when the Children of Israel kept on harassing him with questions and stupid comments).
Oki Nun de Plume (nice nick btw)
Allah is the only one who allows himself to swear by his Creation (we are not allowed as it is idolatry)-
Despite that people still do, some will swear by their children, their possessions, some idols etc... All the objects they swear by are important to them, and convey a sense of importance to the recipient, so that the recipient believes them.
Fig trees and Olives were and still are an important part of the livelihood of Mediterranean countries and countries climate allows that these grow (such as Palestine and the vicinity of Jerusalem), but not Makkah. Allah swears by the Fig tree and the olive to people who appreciate the importance of those two plants, how best to appreciate if your livelihood depends on them? He is most definitely addressing an audience who lives in the vicinity of PALESTINE and not Makkah...
same with using Olive Oil to convey the likeness of the light of Allah...
kappich
have a nice dayBeautiful understanding peace
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Peace theNabster,
Thanks on the "Nom de Plume" compliment...
Fig trees and Olives were and still are an important part of the livelihood of Mediterranean countries and countries climate allows that these grow (such as Palestine and the vicinity of Jerusalem), but not Makkah. Allah swears by the Fig tree and the olive to people who appreciate the importance of those two plants, how best to appreciate if your livelihood depends on them? He is most definitely addressing an audience who lives in the vicinity of PALESTINE and not Makkah...
952 And the Mount of Sinai,
2320 Also a tree springing out of MOUNT SINAI, which produces oil, and relish for those who use it for food.
Where is MOUNT SINAI ? vicinity of PALESTINE?
http//www.pacinst.com/route/route.jpg
same with using Olive Oil to convey the likeness of the light of Allah...
Right, analogy is about ?same message? of light/guidance not about same vicinity.
kappich
have a nice daySi piccolo; actually spent a year as a refugee in Rome when little.
Ciao
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Jews were also living with prophet Mohammed and they knew about the Mount of Sinai that is why god used that otherwise mount everest would be more fitting, had god used mount everest we could have presented it as a miracle because it is the highest peak of the world. Alhamdulillah
http//www.sjm.com/assets/successstories/sstories_meyer_illustration_northfaceme.gif
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Peace brother Hamsa,
This is a tough question to which there is no standard answer. What I have found from my experience is that there are two kinds of people.
There is the kind that instinctively feels that there is something not quite right with kissing a stone and revering an inert object. Those people recognize the truth when they see it. We just have to approach them in the right way and not force the issue.
The other kind are people who no matter what happens, will find an excuse for idolizing something. Those are the people who as you say "the cube (and not the god) is the nucleus of their beliefs". You can't help them and nobody can.
In my experience, I have found that a good initiation of conversation in those matters is when people criticize other religions such as Christianity for having pagan influences or criticise people who are blindly following others. The natural question is how about us? We can make similar criticism about the black stone, the cube, etc.
What you will also find out very quickly is that you now know about the stone cube, the so-called Black Stone, etc. more than any of the people who idolize such things. So you have the high ground.
I hope this helps.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace brother Ayman,
Thanks for your reply and I find myself in agreement with you.
peace
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Peace
Re Mount Sinai
You might find this article interesting Mount Sinai is much closer to Palestine than you may think, and is not in the Arabian Peninsula, but much further north
Thoughts on Jebel al-Lawz and the Location of Mt. Sinai
http//bibleprobe.com/jabel%20al%20Lawz.htm
The method used to determine this are correlation of days of travel vs. distances -
Peace
I can appreciate why there is the saying "Patient as a Prophet", and also why Allah told Mohammed's followers (and rejectors) were they going to make his life as hard as Moses? (when the Children of Israel kept on harassing him with questions and stupid comments).
Oki Nun de Plume (nice nick btw)
Allah is the only one who allows himself to swear by his Creation (we are not allowed as it is idolatry)-
Despite that people still do, some will swear by their children, their possessions, some idols etc... All the objects they swear by are important to them, and convey a sense of importance to the recipient, so that the recipient believes them.
Fig trees and Olives were and still are an important part of the livelihood of Mediterranean countries and countries climate allows that these grow (such as Palestine and the vicinity of Jerusalem), but not Makkah. Allah swears by the Fig tree and the olive to people who appreciate the importance of those two plants, how best to appreciate if your livelihood depends on them? He is most definitely addressing an audience who lives in the vicinity of PALESTINE and not Makkah...
same with using Olive Oil to convey the likeness of the light of Allah...
kappich
have a nice day14.37. "O our Lord! I have made some of my offspring to dwell in a valley without cultivation, by Thy Sacred House; in order, O our Lord, that they may establish regular Prayer so fill the hearts of some among men with love towards them, and feed them with fruits so that they may give thanks.
It sounds like Makka to me. hmm
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Peace theNabster,
Thanks on the "Nom de Plume" compliment...
952 And the Mount of Sinai,
2320 Also a tree springing out of MOUNT SINAI, which produces oil, and relish for those who use it for food.
Where is MOUNT SINAI ? vicinity of PALESTINE?
http//www.pacinst.com/route/route.jpg
Didn't you realize that you are showing us a map of North West of the Arabian Peninsula? Mecca is south of the peninsula. Gulf of Aqaba is nowhere in SA.
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14.37. "O our Lord! I have made some of my offspring to dwell in a valley without cultivation, by Thy Sacred House; in order, O our Lord, that they may establish regular Prayer so fill the hearts of some among men with love towards them, and feed them with fruits so that they may give thanks.
It sounds like Makka to me. hmm
Peace
It might also be referring to Kidron Valley (Qidron Valley) by Jerusalem... -
Didn't you realize that you are showing us a map of North West of the Arabian Peninsula? Mecca is south of the peninsula. Gulf of Aqaba is nowhere in SA.
I realize everything about which I post!
The whole point is my initial reply to Ayman that Surah 951-3 relationship is NOT about same location/vicinity?
951 By the Fig and the Olive,
952 And the Mount of Sinai,
953 And this City of security,-It is about ?same message? (2435) light/guidance.
Peace
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Peace
It might also be referring to Kidron Valley (Qidron Valley) by Jerusalem...Timeline Jerusalem?
614 Conquered by Persians
629 Recaptured by ByzantinesTimeline Islam?
610 Start revelation of Qur?an
622 Hijra -- migration to Medina
624 Battle of Badr
627 Battle of the Trench
628 Treaty of Hudaybiyyah
630 Conquest of Mecca
End revelation
638 Caliph Omar enters JerusalemEarly Islam if near Jerusalem (609 ? 632 AD) would have to contend with the likes of Persians and Byzantines which clearly was not the case nor mentioned in history.
Peace
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Peace Bro Nun de Plume,
If the Arabs were so "good" at recording their history and complementing it with clear cut archaeological/anthropological evidence, why did they have to use hearsay and a strange system of hadith collection after over 200 years of the death of the Prophet about the lives of the Prophet and his companions to build up that whole time-line you listed...
It seems to me you are making a huge leap of faith by believing what they so cunningly fed you... ;D
You see having them trying to convince me to pray to idol symbols has shattered pretty much any credibility they have in my book...
The only thing left for me and many people on this site to rely on is The Quran...
And it is verey significant and prophetic that Allah in The Quran bothered to describe the Arab deities, as they are still live and well!!!
Comprende amigo? -
Peace brother theNabster,
Peace Bro Nun de Plume,
If the Arabs were so "good" at recording their history and complementing it with clear cut archaeological/anthropological evidence, why did they have to use hearsay and a strange system of hadith collection after over 200 years of the death of the Prophet about the lives of the Prophet and his companions to build up that whole time-line you listed...All history is according to someone?s biased hadith. Discard all Arab history then show us according to Jewish, Roman, or whoever's history/hearsay/hadith that Islam was near Jerusalem before 638 AD?
Islam didn?t spring overnight and was clearly revealed in a ?CITY? by ?Thy Sacred House? ?
1435 Remember Abraham said "O my Lord! make this CITY one of peace and security and preserve me and my sons from worshipping idols.
1436 "O my Lord! they have indeed led astray many among mankind; He then who follows my (ways) is of me, and he that disobeys me,- but Thou art indeed Oft- forgiving, Most Merciful.
1437 "O our Lord! I have made some of my offspring to dwell in a valley without cultivation, by Thy Sacred House; in order, O our Lord, that they may establish regular Prayer so fill the hearts of some among men with love towards them, and feed them with fruits so that they may give thanks.
It seems to me you are making a huge leap of faith by believing what they so cunningly fed you... ;D
No, I read for historical perspective to get a sense of location/time then triangulate with Qur?an and other sources using common sense to avoid making illogical conjectures such as below
Figs and olives don?t grow near Mecca therefore ?City? is not Mecca.
Neglecting meaning of verse and with same logic it would also be on Mt. Sinai.Black stone has oval shaped silver band holding it together therefore it?s a vagina.
Yeah, to some sexually frustrated minds so is China?s Olympic Stadium? Dhttp//www.fayerwayer.com/2006/06/Estadio_Olimpico_Chino.jpg
Someone?s footprints are being idolized by some people therefore Mecca is null.
This reminds me of visiting Istanbul and seeing the big shoe size. lolhttp//www.usna.edu/Users/humss/bwheeler/images/footistanbul.jpg
The only thing left for me and many people on this site to rely on is The Quran...
Cool, then read Qur?an and use your ?free mind? to reason.
And it is verey significant and prophetic that Allah in The Quran bothered to describe the Arab deities, as they are still live and well!!!
Idols come in many forms money, ego, intellect, family, nationalism, all sorts of ?isms? and ideologies.
Comprende amigo?
E kuptoj mire faleminderit - I understand good thank you!
Mirupafshim ? Goodbye!
Today?s lesson in Albanian? ;D
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Peace Bro Nun de Plume,
If the Arabs were so "good" at recording their history and complementing it with clear cut archaeological/anthropological evidence, why did they have to use hearsay and a strange system of hadith collection after over 200 years of the death of the Prophet about the lives of the Prophet and his companions to build up that whole time-line you listed...
It seems to me you are making a huge leap of faith by believing what they so cunningly fed you... ;D
You see having them trying to convince me to pray to idol symbols has shattered pretty much any credibility they have in my book...
The only thing left for me and many people on this site to rely on is The Quran...
And it is verey significant and prophetic that Allah in The Quran bothered to describe the Arab deities, as they are still live and well!!!
Comprende amigo?So you are sayinh Muslims claim the ka'ba is a god? What on earth does visting and encircling the ka'ba has to do with worshiping idols? The planets rotate around the sun, so what?