Kaaba again - destroy idols
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'coz i kiss my m'phone all the time ;D
Astaghfirullahi 3theem.... God forbid...
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The naskh and mansukh is the biggest ploy that Satan has used to confuse us in our Deen.
Especially when used in tafseer of The Quran. As if Allah keeps on changing His mind while the revelation is being descended...
The naskh that Allah refers to in Quran is from one revelation to another (ie eg Innjeel and Quran or Torah and Innjeel)...
But it was hijacked to mean last to be stated, so RasulHamsa what you are looking for is the latest Hadith to refer to the writing of the Prophet traditions... How are you going to find it, in fact one of the Hadith comes reported to Abu Bakar who went to Aisha asking her to burn the Hadith she collected, and that was after Rasul's death... (I believe on Sahih Muslim reported)...
So we have got traditions of The Prophet, then traditions of The Sahaba... and then Traditions of the Tabi'eens, and Tabi'eens tabi'een...
On what authority? and who cares if its authentic or not...
Is The Quran not enough for the Believers?
Woe to Mankind, they always like to pervert the truth with additions that suit their egos... -
Peace Nun,
Clearly 2127 is not talking about primarily a physical structure. How can you raise the foundations FROM the house? Is it an upside-down house?
That's a good question that has been raised before. An answer would require imagination, not memory. What I have imagined is an existing construction whose function is elevated. When I think of elevation, I think of a movement towards my Lord.
To me, the basic materialistic structure is the pyramid. Invert the pyramid you could raise the foundation. The inverted pyramid was the shape of the Canadian pavillion during the 1967 World Exposition held in Montreal, Expo 67 as it was known.
From what I understand, St-Peter's Cathedral in Rome was built on the site of a Roman shrine. Thus presumably that Christian shrine would have been elevated from the foundations of something that existed prior. This is just an example. Could Abraham then have done the same thing? i.e. converting an existing construction or location which had a cultural meaning to where it stood and giving it a new sense?
Noah's work ended up in destruction, couldn't Abraham's work been able to do some recycling? Clearly...
adjwi
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Peace adjwi
you might have a point concerning Qa'abah with the foundation argument.
I personally believe it is a physical place and not a metaphor.
It most certainly has to be cleaned from any idol worship activities, apparent or hidden...
The question is, will Allah condone that a place initially built for idol-worship be recycled for His worship...
I am more inclined to believe that there was an altar to Allah initially, and from The Quran it seems that It was raised by Abraham and Ishmael. The Quran does not seem to say that there was such an altar before then..., but I hope we are open to evidence, one way or another - Free-Minds should not be Closed-Minds
As for Noah's work, respectfully I do not agree that it was destroyed, first there was some who followed him, however small their numbers, and never can the work of a Prophet be destroyed anyway, but the people can be destroyed with their disobedience (albeit not always)... -
Salaam all
2226-27
"And (as) we showed Ibrahim the site of the house that "don't set partners with me" and purify it for the travellers and the residents and those who submit in humility. And proclaim "hajj" to the people ; they will come to you on foot and riding from every distant place.
My question is this
When Ibrahim first invited people to hajj, did he start telling them his story with his two wives and how his first wife was running between two hills searching for water for the young Ismael, and how, while building the house the devil appeared and he had to stone it three times etc...etc.. .And then ordered them to re-enact this story? Calling them from everywhere just to play this part of his life?
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As for Noah's work, respectfully I do not agree that it was destroyed, first there was some who followed him, however small their numbers, and never can the work of a Prophet be destroyed anyway, but the people can be destroyed with their disobedience (albeit not always)...
Noah's work was not destroyed, however at the end it comes to destruction. If you consider the historical time line, Abraham's work ends in construction. At one point conversion must occur, otherwise all you have is destruction throughout history.
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My question is this
When Ibrahim first invited people to hajj, did he start telling them his story with his two wives and how his first wife was running between two hills searching for water for the young Ismael, and how, while building the house the devil appeared and he had to stone it three times etc...etc.. .And then ordered them to re-enact this story? Calling them from everywhere just to play this part of his life?
Peace Samia,
Aren't you reading outside of the Quran? Are those two wives mentionned in the book? If the Quran is not the reference, what is?
adjwi
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Peace Samia,
Aren't you reading outside of the Quran? Are those two wives mentionned in the book? If the Quran is not the reference, what is?
adjwi
Salaam adjwi
In fact my question is to those who believe in this story and find it in their undrstanding of hajj rituals, which they claim are symbolic following into the footsteps of Ibrahim. But if Ibrahim himslef was the first to proclaim hajj according to qur'aan, how did he perform it?
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We do not know for sure anything about Prophet Ibrahim except what quran has told us.
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Peace Ayman -- sorry been away traveling/passing by ruins in NY.
NO MATTER HOW YOU DECIDE TO READ THE PASSAGE, it is clear that the kingdom of the Arabs began in 620-621CE.
...Traditions clearly have the prophet's birth date wrong, which is the starting point for the entire so-called Islamic chronology. I based the more likely date of 552CE on Abraha's inscription but this is not the only evidence. Other researchers have independently reached a similar date based on other evidences. For example, an inscription and a Greek account lead Lawrence Conrad to fix the prophet's birth in 552CE (see http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quest_for_the_Historical_Muhammad and http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Conrad ).
Let?s do math
Age at start of kingdom of Arabs = 621CE - 552CE (supposed birth) = 69
Therefore, clumping events below together, at age 69?"All we have regarding thaggar (Islam) are the notices that 'Muhammad (Mhmt) went down for trade to the lands of Palestine, Arabia and Syrian Phoenicia,' that 'the kingdom of the arbaye (Arabians), those whom we call Tayyaye (Arabs), began when Heraclius, king of the Romans, was in his eleventh year and Khusrau, king of the Persians, was in his thirty-first year' (620-21CE), and that 'the Tayyaye began to carry out raids in the land of Palestine.'" (from Hoyland, Seeing Islam as Other Saw it).
Trading/raiding lasted how long ? to age 80?
By referring to a modern Arabic on-line dictionary, you are only demonstrating your ignorance of the difference between Modern Standard Arabic and Classical Arabic.
From Al-Mohit Classical Arabic dictionary
According to Classical Arabic dictionaries, "feel" means "atrocious and wrong view/opinion". So the passage would be better translated as
- Haven't you seen what your lord did to those with the atrocious and wrong view/opinion?
Explain then how/when al-feel (ل came to mean "the elephant" in Arabic?
Ever play chess Ayman? Persians introduced chess to Arabs which was a bit different back then in that dice were used not skill. Guess what piece was in place of today?s bishop?
The War Elephant!
In Persian ?pil? means elephant.
In Hebrew, a Semitic cousin language of Classical Arabic, ?peel? means elephant.
In Spanish, ?alfil? or bishop in chess comes from Arabic al-feel introduced my Moors.What was used in classical Arabic in place of nonexistent ?p? ? ?f? perhaps?
Who are the people with the atrocious and wrong opinion that used to dwell in the same location where the people of the prophet lived?
They are the people of Lot. They are the only people described in 1182 and 1574 as being punished by being hit with "7ijarat min sijjil" exactly the same term used in 1054.
Being afflicted with same punishment means they are same people?
Their cities were also "turned upside down" in addition to being pelted.
They of course had an "atrocious and wrong view/opinion" and as described in 1051, the people of the prophet can see the destroyed remains of their civilization (2540 and 37137-13.
The ruins of Madyan People (Companions of the Wood) which Prophet Shu'aib was sent were also visible ?on an open highway, plain to see? while traveling/passing by?
1574 And We turned (the cities) upside down, and rained down on them brimstones hard as baked clay.
1575. Behold! in this are Signs for those who by tokens do understand.
1576. And the (cities were) right on the high-road.
1577. Behold! in this is a sign for those who believed.
1578. And the Companions of the Wood were also wrong-doers;
1579. So We exacted retribution from them. They were both on an open highway, plain to see.Elephants are normal in Africa and India. On the other hand, there is zero evidence of elephants being used by the Abassynians in battles in Arabia. Surely, Abraha's inscription would have mentioned such an unusual thing if it occurred. It is not surprising that the inscription doesn't mention elephants. It would have been highly impractical to bring elephants into the desert and carry their weight in water. Moreover, elephants had fallen out of use as battle gear approximately seven centuries earlier. This is for the simple reason that elephants' feet are very sensitive and it is very easy to defeat elephants in battle by placing thorns or any sharp objects in their path. Elephants would have suffered greatly in the scorching sands of the desert without giving an invading army any advantage. Thus, it is practically impossible that Abraha used elephants on his expedition to Arabia and this is confirmed by the complete absence of their mention in the inscription.
That inscription is not Qur?an.
Elephants can survive without water and travel 50 miles/day in the desert.
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=XP16_PYOqGE
The elephant might have been merely a pompous show which by accounts their kings were known to do.
Walter Muller's personal opinion is irrelevant.
Lawrence Conrad's personal opinion is relevant?
Peace
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Salaam Nun de plume
The story of every nation/individual that was afflicted by God's punishment was told in the qur'aan sometimes more than once, detailing their crimes. The punishment afflicted on the "people of the fil" is one of the most horrible ones. What was their story/crime?
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Peace Nun,
Let?s do math
Age at start of kingdom of Arabs = 621CE - 552CE (supposed birth) = 69
Therefore, clumping events below together, at age 69?
"All we have regarding thaggar (Islam) are the notices that 'Muhammad (Mhmt) went down for trade to the lands of Palestine, Arabia and Syrian Phoenicia,' that 'the kingdom of the arbaye (Arabians), those whom we call Tayyaye (Arabs), began when Heraclius, king of the Romans, was in his eleventh year and Khusrau, king of the Persians, was in his thirty-first year' (620-21CE), and that 'the Tayyaye began to carry out raids in the land of Palestine.'" (from Hoyland, Seeing Islam as Other Saw it).
Trading/raiding lasted how long ? to age 80?Actually, from the manuscripts of travellers to Arabia, the average age of death of an Arab male was about 40 back then. Even with all the advancements in medicine, today the average male mortality age in Arab countries is in the low 60s.
So the prophet was probably already dead by 620-21CE. Of course, he must have traded before 620CE.
I see that you are still evading addressing the fact that the Arabs had a kingdom in 620-21, at least ten years before traditionalists contend.
Explain then how/when al-feel (ل came to mean "the elephant" in Arabic?
Ever play chess Ayman? Persians introduced chess to Arabs which was a bit different back then in that dice were used not skill. Guess what piece was in place of today?s bishop?
The War Elephant!
In Persian ?pil? means elephant.
In Hebrew, a Semitic cousin language of Classical Arabic, ?peel? means elephant.
In Spanish, ?alfil? or bishop in chess comes from Arabic al-feel introduced my Moors.
What was used in classical Arabic in place of nonexistent ?p? ? ?f? perhaps?The meaning I gave was copied and pasted from Classical Arabic dictionary (It was Al-Mo7it). The meaning also fits perfectly in the context of the passage. Why do you think that the dictionary is wrong? The only real reason for you is that it doesn't match with what Ibn Hisham and Tabari fed you.
Being afflicted with same punishment means they are same people?
Their cities were also "turned upside down" in addition to being pelted.
The ruins of Madyan People (Companions of the Wood) which Prophet Shu'aib was sent were also visible ?on an open highway, plain to see? while traveling/passing by?
1574 And We turned (the cities) upside down, and rained down on them brimstones hard as baked clay.
1575. Behold! in this are Signs for those who by tokens do understand.
1576. And the (cities were) right on the high-road.
1577. Behold! in this is a sign for those who believed.
1578. And the Companions of the Wood were also wrong-doers;
1579. So We exacted retribution from them. They were both on an open highway, plain to see.If it was you or I writing a book then perhaps there may be some inconsistency or haphazard use of certain terms. On the other hand, every word in the great reading should not be taken lightly. I don't think that it is a coincidence that the god uses the SAME EXACT term in Chapter 105 for the people of Lot. No one else other than the people of Lot was punished with "7ijarat min sijjil".
That inscription is not Qur?an.
Ibn Hisham and Tabari fairy tales are not Quran either and yet you have absolute faith in them. Why?
At least the inscription is physical evidence that can be verified. Also, the inscription was written long before the prophet's time and Islamic history so I am sure that Abraha didn't conspire to rewrite the history of a yet to be invented religion. On the other hand, you have absolute faith in some fairy tales by a couple of later days storytellers.
Elephants can survive without water and travel 50 miles/day in the desert.
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=XP16_PYOqGE
The elephant might have been merely a pompous show which by accounts their kings were known to do.Yeah right!! yeah This is why we can normally see elephants wandering the desert. You always come up with absurd excuses when the simplest explanation is usually the most correct.
Had the elephants been a show then surely going through such effort would have deserved a mention in the inscription. Again, the simplest explanation is the most likely to be correct. The inscription doesn't mention elephants for the simple reason that there were no elephants.
Again, I have seen the pattern of your arguments before. It is just one excuse after the other. After you saw that elephants had stopped being used as battle gear a few centuries earlier and seeing the practical impossibility of using them in battle in the desert, you just keep digging yourself a deeper hole with more excuses. All this for what? So that you can feel at ease revering a stone cube and a town in Saudi and go about doing some mindless pagan rituals thinking that your sins will be forgiven. Again, you are free to believe and do as you will and you have my best wishes. But don't claim that you are doing it based on anything in the great reading. As is clear from your arguments, you are ultimately basing your beliefs on absolute faith in Ibn Hisham and Tabari.
Lawrence Conrad's personal opinion is relevant?
He based it on physical archeological evidence not on the antics of Ibn Hisham and Tabari like Mr. Muller.
You don't seem to know the difference between verifiable physical evidence and hearsay.
Peace,
Ayman