Kaaba again - destroy idols
-
Peace all,
According to the following signs, even when one commits sin out of ignorance, one STILL HAS TO REPENT. Just because it was committed out of ignorance does not mean we will not be accountable for it, and will be forgiven without repentance
417 Repentance is only for those who commit sin out of ignorance and then repent soon after; these will be forgiven by God, God is Knowledgeable, Wise.
654 And if those who believe in Our revelations come to you, then say "Peace be upon you, our Lord has decreed mercy upon Himself, that any of you who commits sin out of ignorance and then repents afterwards and amends, then He is Forgiving, Merciful."
16119 Then your Lord to those who do evil out of ignorance, then they repent after that and they make right, your Lord after that is Forgiving, Merciful.
-
Salaam bro Tanveer
Ah, I always thought only that murderer should be hanged who killed someone intentionally, and a person who unintentionally killed someone shouldn't get the same punishment........but I was wrong...
Also if I want someone to think and be on the right path then I would definitely prefer not to use your method bro, its destructive not constructive at all....
Peace
-
Salaam bro Hamsa,
Killing someone unintentionally is not the same as killing someone intentionally but not knowing it is a sin. Committing sin out of ignorance would be the latter, not the former which would be an accident and not a sin.
Just like some people INTENTIONALLY go visit pagan idols and symbols and INTENTIONALLY indulge in pagan rituals and practices, not knowing it is idolatry. That would be committing sin out of ignorance. They better repent soon for it and amend their actions, otherwise once they die, that sin might never be forgiven by The God.
-
dude, seriously... read the darn inscription!
Sure here is the inscription?
http//www.mnh.si.edu/epigraphy/e_pre-islamic/fig04_sabaean.htm
What do earlier battles with different tribes have to do with Quraish?
NO BATTLE was fought with Quraish; according to Qur?an their plan was foiled (pelted, disease, whatever) and they retreated in defeat?
1061 Lieelafi qurayshin
Perhaps some of you don?t believe there was such a tribe or dialect. LOL
-
just stumbled on this website
http//us.geocities.com/al_hajj/Kaaba.htmlhow much of this info is true? how do they know?
The Kaaba It's Size and History!
The small, cubed building known as the Kaaba may not rival skyscrapers in height or mansions in width, but its impact on history and human beings is unmatched.
The Kaaba is the building towards which Muslims face five times a day, everyday, in prayer. This has been the case since the time of Prophet Muhammad over 1400 years ago.
The Size of the Kaaba
The current height of the Kaaba is 39 feet, 6 inches and total size comes to 627 square feet.
The inside room of the Kaaba is 42.64x29.52 feet. The Kaaba's walls are one 3.28 feet wide. The floor inside is 7.22 feet higher than the place where people perform Tawaf.
The ceiling and roof are two levels made out of wood. They were reconstructed with teak which is capped with stainless steel.
The walls are all made of stone. The stones inside are unpolished, while the ones outside are polished.
This small building has been constructed and reconstructed by Prophets Adam, Ibrahim, Ismail and Muhammad (peace be upon them). No other building has had this honor.
Facts about the Kaaba that many are unaware of.
The other names of the Kaaba
Literally, Kaaba in Arabic means a high place with respect and prestige. The word Kaaba may also be derivative of a word meaning a cube.
Some of these other names include
Bait ul Ateeq-which means, according to one meaning, the earliest and ancient. According to the second meaning, it means independent and liberating. Both meanings could be taken
Bayt ul Haram-the honorable house
The Kaaba has been reconstructed up to 12 times
Scholars and historians say that the Kaaba has been reconstructed between five to twelve times.
The very first construction of the Kaaba was done by Prophet Adam. Allah says in the Quran that this was the first house that was built for humanity to worship Allah.
After this, Prophet Ibrahim and Ismail rebuilt the Kaaba. The measurements of the Kaaba's Ibrahimic foundation are as follows
the eastern wall was 48 feet and 6 inches
the Hateem side wall was 33 feet
the side between the black stone and the Yemeni corner was 30 feet
the Western side was 46.5 feet
Following this, there were several constructions before the Prophet Muhammad's time.
Reconstruction of Kaaba by Quraish
Prophet Muhammad participated in one of its reconstructions before he became a Prophet.
After a flash flood, the Kaaba was damaged and its walls cracked. It needed rebuilding.
This responsibility was divided among the Quraish's four tribes. Prophet Muhammad helped with this reconstruction.
Once the walls were erected, it was time to place the Black Stone, (the Hajar ul Aswad) on the eastern wall of the Kaaba.
Arguments erupted about who would have the honor of putting the Black Stone in its place. A fight was about to break out over the issue, when Abu Umayyah, Makkah's oldest man, proposed that the first man to enter the gate of the mosque the following morning would decide the matter. That man was the Prophet. The Makkans were ecstatic. "This is the trustworthy one (Al-Ameen)," they shouted in a chorus. "This is Muhammad".
He came to them and they asked him to decide on the matter. He agreed.
Prophet Muhammad proposed a solution that all agreed to-putting the Black Stone on a cloak, the elders of each of the clans held on to one edge of the cloak and carried the stone to its place. The Prophet then picked up the stone and placed it on the wall of the Kaaba.
Since the tribe of Quraish did not have sufficient funds, this reconstruction did not include the entire foundation of the Kaaba as built by Prophet Ibrahim. This is the first time the Kaaba acquired the cubical shape it has now unlike the rectangle shape which it had earlier. The portion of the Kaaba left out is called Hateem now.
Construction After the Prophet's Time-Abdullah ibn az-Zubayr
The Syrian army destroyed the Kaaba in Muharram 64 (Hijri date) and before the next Hajj Abdullah ibn az-Zubayr, may Allah be pleased with him, reconstructed the Kaaba from the ground up.
Ibn az-Zubayr wanted to make the Kaaba how the Prophet Muhammad wanted it, on the foundation of the Prophet Ibrahim.
Ibn az-Zubayr said, "I heard Aisha (may Allah be pleased with her) say, 'The Prophet said "If your people had not quite recently abandoned the Ignorance (Unbelief), and if I had sufficient provisions to rebuild it , I would have added five cubits to it from the Hijr. Also, I would make two doors; one for people to enter therein and the other to exit." (Bukhari). Ibn az-Zubayr said, "Today, I can afford to do it and I do not fear the people.
Ibn az-Zubayr built the Kaaba on Prophet Ibrahim's foundation. He put the roof on three pillars with the wood of Aoud (a perfumed wood with aroma which is traditionally burned to get a good smell out of it in Arabia).
In his construction he put two doors, one facing the east the other facing the west, as the Prophet wanted but did not do in his lifetime.
He rebuilt the Kaaba on the Prophet Ibrahim's foundation, which meant that the Hateem area was included. The Hateem is the area adjacent to the Kaaba enclosed by a low semi-circular wall.
Abdullah ibn az-Zubayr also made the following additions and modifications
put a small window close to the roof of the Kaaba to allow for light.
moved the door of the Kaaba to ground level and added a second door to the Kaaba.
added nine cubits to the height of the Kaaba, making it twenty cubits high.
its walls were two cubits wide.
reduced the pillars inside the House to three instead of six as were earlier built by Quraish.
For reconstruction, ibn az-Zubayr put up four pillars around Kaaba and hung cloth over them until the building was completed. People began to do Tawaf around these pillars at all times, so Tawaf of the Kaaba was never abandoned, even during reconstruction.
During Abdul Malik bin Marwan's time
In 74 Hijri (or 693 according to the Gregorian calendar), Al-Hajjaj bin Yusuf al-Thaqafi, the known tyrant of that time, with the approval of Umayyad Khalifa Abdul Malik bin Marwan, demolished what Ibn az-Zubayr had added to it from the older foundation of Prophet Ibrahim, restore its old structure as the Quraish had it.
Some of the changes he made were the following
he rebuilt it in the smaller shape which is found today
took out the Hateem
walled up the western door (whose signs are still visible today) and left the rest as it was
pulled down the wall in the Hateem area.
removed the wooden ladder Ibn az-Zubayr had put inside the Kaaba.
reduced the door's height by five cubits
When Abdul Malik bin Marwan came for Umra and heard the Hadith that it was wish of Prophet for the Kaaba to be constructed the way Abdullah ibn az-Zubayr had built it, he regretted his actions.
Imam Malik's advice to the Khalifa Harun al Rasheed
Abbasi Khalifa Harun al Rasheed wanted to rebuild the Kaaba the way the Prophet Muhammad wanted and the way Abdullah ibn az-Zubayr built it.
But when he consulted Imam Malik, the Imam asked the Khalifa to change his mind because constant demolition and rebuilding is not respectful and would become a toy in the hands of kings. Each one would want to demolish and rebuild the Kaaba.
Based on this advice, Harun al Rasheed did not reconstruct the Kaaba. The structure remained in the same construction for 966 years, with minor repairs here and there.
Reconstruction during Sultan Murad Khan's time
In the year 1039 Hijri, because of heavy rain, flood and hail, two of the Kaaba's walls fell down.
The flood during which this occurred took place on the 19th of Shabaan 1039 Hijri which continued constantly, so the water in the Kaaba became almost close to half of its walls, about 10 feet from the ground level.
On Thursday the 20th of Shabaan 1039 Hijri, the eastern and western walls fell down.
When flood receded on Friday the 21st of Shabaan, the cleanup started.
Again, a curtain, the way Abdullah ibn az-Zubayr established on 4 pillars, was put up, and the reconstruction started on the 26th of Ramadan. The rest of the walls except for the one near the Black Stone, were demolished.
By the 2nd of Dhul Hijjah 1040 the construction was taking place under the guidance of Sultan Murad Khan, the Ottoman Khalifa. From the point of the Black stone and below, the current construction is the same as that done by Abdullah ibn az-Zubayr.
The construction which was done under the auspices of Murad Khan was exactly the one done at the time of Abdul Malik ibn Marwan which is the way the Quraysh had built it before Prophethood.
On Rajab 28 1377, One historian counted the total stones of the Kaaba and they were 1,614. These stones are of different shapes. But the stones which are inside the outer wall which is visible are not counted in there.
Reconstruction of the Kaaba In 1996
A major reconstruction of the Kaaba took place between May 1996 and October 1996.
This was after a period of about 400 years (since Sultan Murad Khan's time).
During this reconstruction the only original thing left from the Kaaba are the stones. All other material has been replaced including the ceiling and the roof and its wood.
What is inside the Kaaba?
The president of the Islamic Society of North America (ISNA) had the opportunity to go inside the Kaaba in 1998. He describes the following features
there are two pillars inside (others report 3 pillars)
there is a table on the side to put items like perfume
there are two lantern-type lamps hanging from the ceiling
the space can accommodate about 50 people
there are no electric lights inside
the walls and floors are of marble
there are no windows inside
there is only one door
the upper inside walls of the Kaaba were covered with some kind of curtain with the Kalima written on it
Based on information from ICNA's Web site.
-
Peace
Let us not stray here from the thread.
Pointers- Why are there other cubes that look like Kaaba?,
- Were they also dedicated to The God, then got corrupted by idol pagan worship?,
- Who built them and when? after or before Abraham time?
- Who carved the footprints of Abraham near KSA Kaaba (don't insult my intelligence by saying it is his real footprints)
- The black stones, who brought them? are black stones in other cubes same as the KSA Kaaba?
- In the West we have witch worships, where evil worshipers will process fully naked around a tree, or a stone, invoking witches to help them with problems, this is also done as a ritual of rebirth at the end of December, I read a Hadith where it said the Arabs used to circumbulate around the Kaaba naked, the Mohammed asked them to put a white cloth instead... How about the other cubic structures, why were they not destroyed... Is it OK to worship the Sun, and Allat and Mannat and Al-Uzzah?, since they were left standing? or did some of the Arabs still felt keen of their Idols and scared to destroy them despite The Quranic revelations?
- In this age of Science, why KSA Government will not allow archaeological and forensic studies to confirm what is written in hadiths?
I think #7 is the one I am really after as it will help get a much better picture of the activities of the Arabs in that area, and therefore the validity or lack therefore of the current interpretations of the Quranic (and Biblical) verses...
-
Short term memory I guess.
Please refer to a dozen earlier posts on the Quraish throughout verious threads on this forum then...What is it that AB says? Yeah ....
DISMISSED
lol
Sure here is the inscription?
http//www.mnh.si.edu/epigraphy/e_pre-islamic/fig04_sabaean.htm
What do earlier battles with different tribes have to do with Quraish?
NO BATTLE was fought with Quraish; according to Qur?an their plan was foiled (pelted, disease, whatever) and they retreated in defeat?
1061 Lieelafi qurayshin
Perhaps some of you don?t believe there was such a tribe or dialect. LOL
-
Peace Nun,
You agree it happened; when/where according to your timeline ? to Yathrib?
They emigrated but certainly not from what was at the time non-existent Mecca. The people from Yathrib were at a certain battle as per 3313. This doesn't mean that the prophet emigrated there.
Use anyone?s timeline for Jerusalem you like; Jews, Christians?
http//www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=jerusalem+timeline&btnG=Google+Search
614 Persian conquest of Jerusalem.
628 Emperor Heraculis recaptures the city.
638 Six years after the Mohammed's death, Caliph Omar captures Jerusalem; Jews readmitted
Whole point was that Islam sprang no where near there else they would have to contend with Persians and Byzantines which was not the case.I don't know why you are obsessed with Jerusalem. Jerusalem wasn't the town that the prophet emigrated from.
They exported ivory, trained baby elephants and like showing off in elephant chariots to visiting emissaries, and their coins with wheat around King's head was their symbol which fits Qur?an?
What are you talking about? None of that nonsense about elephants is in the inscriptions or the coin. Are these your own fairy tales?
read the above paragraph as separate events?
- 'Muhammad (Mhmt) went down for trade to the lands of Palestine, Arabia and Syrian Phoenicia.
- that 'the kingdom of the arbaye (Arabians), those whom we call Tayyaye (Arabs), began when Heraclius, king of the Romans, was in his eleventh year and Khusrau, king of the Persians, was in his thirty-first year' (620-21CE),
- and that 'the Tayyaye began to carry out raids in the land of Palestine.'"
Else according to your logic, 'Muhammad (Mhmt) went down for trade to the lands of Palestine, Arabia and Syrian Phoenicia while raiding them at the same time?
You can ignore the most important turning event in the text and read it as you like. The fact is that no matter how you read it, the year 620-621CE is when the kingdom of the Arab began. At that time according to traditions they were refugees escaping persecution. Saying that they were a kingdom at the time is like saying that the Palestinians were a kingdom in 1948 when they emigrated from Palestine to escape persecution.
No, I?d think they were Albanian?
Feja e Shqiptarit eshte Shqiptaria ? The Albanian's faith is Albanianism!
Most idolize nationality and believe they originated from pure white Aryan rocks and the Albanian language (Illyrian) is so old that Adam spoke it. LOLThat's the same nonsense that people who take Mecca as their focal point believe. They also believe that their sins will be wiped out by kissing a white rock from heaven that turned black from absorbing sins. They also believe that Arabic is eternal and that Adam and all the prophets spoke Arabic. They even have Jahiliya poetry attributed to Adam in the eulogy of his murdered son!!!!
I agree, people should not worship other than God and couldn?t care if it was a pebble that marks the spot ? it is a place of unity, a focal point.
What good does it do to be united superficially with people who are only united on nonsense and on serving and adoring stones? It is just a show off with no real substance.
Inscriptions were about victory; why would Abraha mention or commemorate a pelting defeat?
It is the Sassanids and not the Arabs that defeated the Abassynians.
Sure here is the inscription?
http//www.mnh.si.edu/epigraphy/e_pre-islamic/fig04_sabaean.htm
What do earlier battles with different tribes have to do with Quraish?Abraha had only ONE expedition into Arabia, even traditionalists agree on this. They claim that his whole objective of invading Arabia was to destroy the so-called Kaaba in so-called Mecca. This one expedition into Arabia is well documented in the inscription. The route that Abraha takes according to the inscription goes to the northeast of the present location of Mecca and completely ignores it as if it wasn't there. The inscription even mentions towns such as Halban that when compared to supposedly all-important Mecca would have been insignificant. The inscription says that Abraha returned victorious. You again come here over a millenium later and from the comfort of your armchair you casually make such absurd claims as "earlier battles" without bringing a shred of evidence, not even useless hearsay from tradition!!!
NO BATTLE was fought with Quraish; according to Qur?an their plan was foiled (pelted, disease, whatever) and they retreated in defeat?
1061 Lieelafi qurayshin
Perhaps some of you don?t believe there was such a tribe or dialect. LOLYes, there was no tribe named Quraish. There is as much evidence of the existence of such tribe as there is of little green men from Mars, a big ZERO. There are many inscriptions in Arabia that mention family lineage and tribes and NONE mention this supposedly most famous Quraish. It is not the name of a tribe. It actually has a meaning that fits in the context of the passage. Please see the meaning of the word "quraish" in Classical Arabic dictionaries. While you are at it, check the meaning of "fil" in Chapter 105 (which also fits in the context and it is not elephant).
Also, this whole idea of a Quraish dialect is hilarious. A non-existent dialect of a non-existent tribe. It is like saying "Perhaps some of you don?t believe there was Martians or a Martian dialect. LOL". It is not surprising that the epigraphic record shows two main dialects in Arabia. In Northern Arabia, they show a Nabataean influenced dialect. In Central and Southern Arabia, they show a Sabaic influenced dialect. The great reading's "dialect" is of the Northern type.
Peace,
Ayman
-
Short term memory I guess.
Please refer to a dozen earlier posts on the Quraish throughout verious threads on this forum then...What is it that AB says? Yeah ....
DISMISSED
lol
Max memory lose I guess.
I?ve never posted in nor read such a thread.
Please summarize your point instead of being ostentatious.
-
Peace Ayman,
I don't know why you are obsessed with Jerusalem. Jerusalem wasn't the town that the prophet emigrated from.
Right, as my earlier response that 1437 does not refer to valley near Jerusalem.
You can ignore the most important turning event in the text and read it as you like. The fact is that no matter how you read it, the year 620-621CE is when the kingdom of the Arab began.
You ignore simple logic ? how can someone trade and raid in Palestine at same time?
"All we have regarding thaggar (Islam) are the notices that 'Muhammad (Mhmt) went down for trade to the lands of Palestine, Arabia and Syrian Phoenicia,' that 'the kingdom of the arbaye (Arabians), those whom we call Tayyaye (Arabs), began when Heraclius, king of the Romans, was in his eleventh year and Khusrau, king of the Persians, was in his thirty-first year' (620-21CE), and that 'the Tayyaye began to carry out raids in the land of Palestine.'" (from Hoyland, Seeing Islam as Other Saw it).
A simple timeline same as that echoed by Elias of Nisibis...
http//www.srr.axbridge.org.uk/chron_tab6.html#end6
622 on 16th Tammuz (16th July AD 622) = 1 AH
According to Elias of Nisibis, this day is the beginning of the first year of the kingdom of the Arabs, that is to say the first year of the Hadj according to the Julian, (not the present Gregorian) calendar. This date AH 1, is used as year 1 for dates given in the Islamic era, (AH)?24th June AD 624 = 3 AH
According to Elias of Nisibis, , the third year of the Islamic era began on 24th day of the month Haziran in the year AG 935. This reference has been used to calculate the beginning of the Arabian calendar on 16th July AD 622, see above.References
, p. xii 'Acta Martyrium et Sanctorum Syriace' volume 2, Paul Bedjan. Publ. Leipzig, Harrassowitz 1891. In particular, a Syriac chronicle found there and edited from Syriac texts by Elias of Nisibis and Gregory Bar Hebraeus.
, p. 58 ?Histoires d?Ahoudemmeh et de Marouta, m?tropolitains Jacobites de Tagrit et de l?orient..? Nau, F. in Patrologia Orientalis, tome III, fascicule 1, No. 11, published Brepols, Belgium 1982. Also published by the BNF and available on-line. http//gallica.bnf.fr/ark/12148/bpt6k9066b
-
Peace Ayman,
While you are at it, check the meaning of "fil" in Chapter 105 (which also fits in the context and it is not elephant).
http//www.islamawakened.com/Quran/105
1051 Alam tara kayfa faAAala rabbuka bi-as-habi alfeeli
How do YOU say Elephant??
http//www.himandus.net/elephanteria/library/language/how_say_eleph.htmlHowever you say it or spell it - olifant - fel - - piugh - elefante - slon - domrey - - elephant - elevant - elefantti - norsu - elefant - ?l?phant - eilifint - ailbhean - elefantas - - helfond - hathi - tus - f?ll - gajah - erebanti - fil - kokiri - - elephanten - barrus - elephantus - zilonus - elef?nt - arewhana - pil - tembo - ndovo - haathi - peel - it's an ELEPHANT.
What are you talking about? None of that nonsense about elephants is in the inscriptions or the coin. Are these your own fairy tales?
Aksum An African Civilisation of Late Antiquity by Dr. Stuart Munro-Hay.
http//users.vnet.net/alight/aksum/mhak3.htmlThere is only one eye-witness description of an Aksumite king, that of Kaleb Ella Atsbeha as related by one of Justinian's ambassadors, whose words are preserved by the historian John Malalas (ed. Migne 1860 670). The report ? for what it is worth; some commentators see it as a more or less imaginary description (Schneider 1984 162) ? shows the kind of pomp with which these ancient rulers supported their position, and details a barbaric magnificence and ostentation. Kaleb appeared in a high car, decorated with golden wreaths, supported on a wheeled platform drawn by four elephants.
A number of different animals are attested from the Aksumite period in Ethiopia. Inscriptions and literary references to Aksum mention cattle, sheep, camels, and elephants. The latter were apparently not usually trained by the Ethiopians, according to Kosmas (Wolska-Conus 1973 354; see Pankhurst 1974 219-220). When the king wanted some for show he had young ones taken to be brought up in captivity. Elephant tusks, adds Kosmas, were sent by ship to India, Persia, Himyar and the Roman empire.
Outline of the History of Ancient Southern Arabia by Walter W. Muller
http//www.yemenweb.com/info/_disc/0000002c.htmTowards the end of his reign, Abreha launched yet another military campaign against the North which has been preserved in the memory of the Arabs because of the elephants accompanying it. Abreha failed to take Mecca as he had intended and the operation had to be abandoned and the operation had to be abandoned.
Sure sound like the people of the elephant to me, which their symbol?
1055 FajaAAalahum kaAAasfin ma/koolin
http//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0f/Kaleb1.jpg
What good does it do to be united superficially with people who are only united on nonsense??
I?m sitting next to our 90 year-old grandmother who did Hajj; she is sick and near death, hardly knows any Qur?an except a few verses which she memorized and recites before sleeping. My great-great grandfather was an Imam in the ancient city of Shkoder/Scutari (nice place with numerous Mosques and Churches near each other) thus our family was persecuted by the former Communist/Atheist regime for being believers; a 16 year-old uncle was imprisoned 25 years in hard labor camp, when I last visited an aunt told me how she too was imprisoned 5 years and had to endure sleeping on a cold jail floor with only a blanket for comfort ? so yeah, I?m united with them and countless millions across the world who believe in God and doing good.
Peace
-
Peace
Let us not stray here from the thread.
Pointers- Why are there other cubes that look like Kaaba?,
Maybe other people and other towns tried to copy the success story of Ka'bah. The pagans worshipped idols and kept them at Ka'bah and that brought a lot of business for the meccans. Maybe others wanted a share and they tried but as we know unsuccessfully.
- Were they also dedicated to The God, then got corrupted by idol pagan worship?,
I just answered this one. Read^^^
- Who built them and when? after or before Abraham time?
You sound like you know something about archaeology and carbon dating. Why can't you figure it out? If you prove that any of them predated Abrahams' time, then I consider taking you seriously.
- Who carved the footprints of Abraham near KSA Kaaba (don't insult my intelligence by saying it is his real footprints)
I don't know. Do you think the wahhabis did it? What is your theory?
- The black stones, who brought them? are black stones in other cubes same as the KSA Kaaba?
The black stone existed at the time of prophet and he respected and even kissed it. What is its origin? We are all from god and we all return to him. Why is that such a central issue for you man?
- In the West we have witch worships, where evil worshipers will process fully naked around a tree, or a stone, invoking witches to help them with problems, this is also done as a ritual of rebirth at the end of December, I read a Hadith where it said the Arabs used to circumbulate around the Kaaba naked, the Mohammed asked them to put a white cloth instead... How about the other cubic structures, why were they not destroyed... Is it OK to worship the Sun, and Allat and Mannat and Al-Uzzah?, since they were left standing? or did some of the Arabs still felt keen of their Idols and scared to destroy them despite The Quranic revelations?
All of the idols in Ka'bah were destroyed by prophet himself. There was no manat or laat or uzza left. I don't kow what you are talking about. Other curbic structures were never important. Probably they had already lost any significance (if they had any) by that time and were in ruins. The muslims didn't destroy the egyptian artifacts either.
- In this age of Science, why KSA Government will not allow archaeological and forensic studies to confirm what is written in hadiths?
What forensic studies you are going to perform? What do you think the possible outcome of such studies would be. If you are firm in your beliefs, then you wouldn't need forensic evidence. Do you believe in what you are saying on this forum or you are just conjecturing. So do you think that what the hadith says is false and on what authority you make such claims?
-
Salam WR WB
hajirfm
paly,
if i had had the funding i will gather a team to do an extensive archaeological survey of the Prophet's alleged whereabouts and associated areas in the Hijaz, can you provide for such a grant? ;D
i am a trained scientist, and i believe science is a powerful tool to validate or debunk statements and beliefs...
you seem to think that Allah will be upset that i ask for such a study, on the contrary it will increase me in faith either way, good scientists are open to validated facts not word of mouth statements or semantic language variations...
Hadith have a lot of inconsistencies and scientifically will therefore be considered unreliable as source of information...
The Quran stands its ground pretty well no thanks to any of us, and it is that Book I firmly believe will stand against any form of scientific scrutiny as it has so far, in fact Allah challenges us to do so!
Dude stop beating around the bush, we are experiencing our dark ages as the Europeans did with the Inquisition, lucky we are so powerless, we would have turned the planet into a raging inferno...
Ayman makes very good points as far as Makka and residual pagan traditions in Arabia are concerned, though I do not agree with many other of his Quranic interpretations...
and btw why do you think Allah bothered to still refer to the Arab deities Allat, Mannat and Al-Uzzah in The Quran if they were going to stop being relevant after The Prophet establishes Islam? The Quran being The Book for all Mankind, and for all remaining times?
Cool day, and keep on smiling -
Peace Nun,
Right, as my earlier response that 1437 does not refer to valley near Jerusalem.
Good, so stop resorting to fallacies. Since you know that Jerusalem is irrelevant and I never proposed that Jerusalem had any significance then you were in fact building a convenient straw man.
You ignore simple logic ? how can someone trade and raid in Palestine at same time?
"All we have regarding thaggar (Islam) are the notices that 'Muhammad (Mhmt) went down for trade to the lands of Palestine, Arabia and Syrian Phoenicia,' that 'the kingdom of the arbaye (Arabians), those whom we call Tayyaye (Arabs), began when Heraclius, king of the Romans, was in his eleventh year and Khusrau, king of the Persians, was in his thirty-first year' (620-21CE), and that 'the Tayyaye began to carry out raids in the land of Palestine.'" (from Hoyland, Seeing Islam as Other Saw it).
A simple timeline same as that echoed by Elias of Nisibis...
http//www.srr.axbridge.org.uk/chron_tab6.html#end6I didn't ignore anything. I addressed all your points. It is you who deliberately ignores to address the points that you have no answer for and you know it and everyone here can go back and read my posts and see which points you couldn't answer. NO MATTER HOW YOU DECIDE TO READ THE PASSAGE, it is clear that the kingdom of the Arabs began in 620-621CE. This is at least ten years before the traditional dating. At that time according to traditions, they were still refugees escaping persecution.
You ignore to address my points because you know very well that this is not just one anomaly but we are seeing an overwhelming pattern of misdating in traditions that pushes narrator age backward and event date forward so that they can overlap. Traditions clearly have the prophet's birth date wrong, which is the starting point for the entire so-called Islamic chronology. I based the more likely date of 552CE on Abraha's inscription but this is not the only evidence. Other researchers have independently reached a similar date based on other evidences. For example, an inscription and a Greek account lead Lawrence Conrad to fix the prophet's birth in 552CE (see http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quest_for_the_Historical_Muhammad and http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Conrad ).
http//www.islamawakened.com/Quran/105
1051 Alam tara kayfa faAAala rabbuka bi-as-habi alfeeli
How do YOU say Elephant??
http//www.himandus.net/elephanteria/library/language/how_say_eleph.html
However you say it or spell it - olifant - fel - - piugh - elefante - slon - domrey - - elephant - elevant - elefantti - norsu - elefant - ?l?phant - eilifint - ailbhean - elefantas - - helfond - hathi - tus - f?ll - gajah - erebanti - fil - kokiri - - elephanten - barrus - elephantus - zilonus - elef?nt - arewhana - pil - tembo - ndovo - haathi - peel - it's an ELEPHANT.By referring to a modern Arabic on-line dictionary, you are only demonstrating your ignorance of the difference between Modern Standard Arabic and Classical Arabic.
From Al-Mohit Classical Arabic dictionary
According to Classical Arabic dictionaries, "feel" means "atrocious and wrong view/opinion". So the passage would be better translated as
- Haven't you seen what your lord did to those with the atrocious and wrong view/opinion?
Who are the people with the atrocious and wrong opinion that used to dwell in the same location where the people of the prophet lived?
They are the people of Lot. They are the only people described in 1182 and 1574 as being punished by being hit with "7ijarat min sijjil" exactly the same term used in 1054. They of course had an "atrocious and wrong view/opinion" and as described in 1051, the people of the prophet can see the destroyed remains of their civilization (2540 and 37137-13.
Aksum An African Civilisation of Late Antiquity by Dr. Stuart Munro-Hay.
http//users.vnet.net/alight/aksum/mhak3.htmlElephants are normal in Africa and India. On the other hand, there is zero evidence of elephants being used by the Abassynians in battles in Arabia. Surely, Abraha's inscription would have mentioned such an unusual thing if it occurred. It is not surprising that the inscription doesn't mention elephants. It would have been highly impractical to bring elephants into the desert and carry their weight in water. Moreover, elephants had fallen out of use as battle gear approximately seven centuries earlier. This is for the simple reason that elephants' feet are very sensitive and it is very easy to defeat elephants in battle by placing thorns or any sharp objects in their path. Elephants would have suffered greatly in the scorching sands of the desert without giving an invading army any advantage. Thus, it is practically impossible that Abraha used elephants on his expedition to Arabia and this is confirmed by the complete absence of their mention in the inscription.
Outline of the History of Ancient Southern Arabia by Walter W. Muller
http//www.yemenweb.com/info/_disc/0000002c.htmWalter Muller's personal opinion is irrelevant. Where did he get this opinion? The ONLY and ultimate source for all such opinions is Ibn Hisham and Tabari.
Sure sound like the people of the elephant to me, which their symbol?
1055 FajaAAalahum kaAAasfin ma/koolinAgain, there is no elephant on the coin. The wheat stalks symbolized abundance and wealth and thus it was featured prominently on the coins of many ancient (and modern) people. The use of wheat stalks on coins was ubiquitous in the ancient world. There are literally thousands of examples of such wheat stalk symbols on ancient coins (you can even buy your own on eBay). For example, see the following ancient coins with similar wheat stalk symbols
http//www.ubiquity-design.com/rcj2/html/romanlife.html
http//rg.ancients.info/lion/Mazaios_stater_o.jpg
http//i9.ebayimg.com/03/i/000/a2/06/cd6f_1_b.JPGI?m sitting next to our 90 year-old grandmother who did Hajj; she is sick and near death, hardly knows any Qur?an except a few verses which she memorized and recites before sleeping. My great-great grandfather was an Imam in the ancient city of Shkoder/Scutari (nice place with numerous Mosques and Churches near each other) thus our family was persecuted by the former Communist/Atheist regime for being believers; a 16 year-old uncle was imprisoned 25 years in hard labor camp, when I last visited an aunt told me how she too was imprisoned 5 years and had to endure sleeping on a cold jail floor with only a blanket for comfort ? so yeah, I?m united with them and countless millions across the world who believe in God and doing good.
My grand parents believed in Kaaba and that doing the so-called Hajj wipes your sin and all this nonsense too. Unfortunately, they already died before I could advise them otherwise. I wish I knew then what I know now. There are many Christians, Buddhists and all sorts of religious people who believe in the god and are doing good and were persecuted too. If you care about your family beyond this worldly existence, then you should follow the example of Luqman in 3113. The first advice he gave to his family is to not setup partners with the god. This includes a special stone cube. The truth of not setting partners with the god is what should unite you not some imagined focal point in so-called Mecca (which you don't truly/really face anyway).
Peace on who followed the guidance,
Ayman
-
Peace Hajirfm,
The black stone existed at the time of prophet and he respected and even kissed it. What is its origin? We are all from god and we all return to him. Why is that such a central issue for you man?
This is such a central issue because setting up partners with the god in any shape or form is a central issue in the great reading and in our entire existence. It is the only unforgivable sin. This is how central it is. You want people to forget about this issue and not worry and be happy idolizing a stone!!!!???
So according to your fallacious thinking, it is also OK to kiss and revere the cross because like everything it is also "from the god and will return to him".
No. Not everything is from the god. Falsehood is not from the god. The material of the black stones and the crosses is from the god but the false idea about revering such inert objects is not from the god. It is from people like you. The god destroys your falsehood with truth/reality.
Peace,
Ayman
-
Dude stop beating around the bush, we are experiencing our dark ages as the Europeans did with the Inquisition, lucky we are so powerless, we would have turned the planet into a raging inferno...
Ayman makes very good points as far as Makka and residual pagan traditions in Arabia are concerned, though I do not agree with many other of his Quranic interpretations...
Totally Agree
and btw why do you think Allah bothered to still refer to the Arab deities Allat, Mannat and Al-Uzzah in The Quran if they were going to stop being relevant after The Prophet establishes Islam? The Quran being The Book for all Mankind, and for all remaining times?
Good Argument.
peace
siki
-
Peace Hajirfm,
This is such a central issue because setting up partners with the god in any shape or form is a central issue in the great reading and in our entire existence. It is the only unforgivable sin. This is how central it is. You want people to forget about this issue and not worry and be happy idolizing a stone!!!!???
So according to your fallacious thinking, it is also OK to kiss and revere the cross because like everything it is also "from the god and will return to him".
No. Not everything is from the god. Falsehood is not from the god. The material of the black stones and the crosses is from the god but the false idea about revering such inert objects is not from the god. It is from people like you. The god destroys your falsehood with truth/reality.
Peace,
Ayman
I think you are over reacting. I don't think muslims wake up everyday thinking about the blackstone. "Oh what a nice day. I wonder how is the blackstone doing. How am I going to please the blackstone? I should get and pray 2 rak'ah for the blackstone. I hope the blackstone is happy with me. I can't wait to go to hajj and please the blackstone and kiss it."
It's not like that. It's just a stone. Get over it. Are you going to wage a jihad against microphones in mosques too? Well they are there in every mosque and it looks like people are praying to it. Why have muslims erected idols like microphones in their mosques? If you start focusing on this you may actually start convincing yourself that people are worshipping the microphone. This is a disease my friend that you have. Do you actually think about the blackstone when you meet muslims? If yes, then you are obsessed with this blackstone and it's ruining your life. So it is you who is thinking about blackstone constantly and can't get it off your mind. We on the other hand don't even remember it except once in our lifetimes if we are lucky to go to hajj and if we get a chance we may kiss the stone. It's a non-issue.
-
I don't see the revelance of the microphone with the subject. The microphone isn't a centre were people turn to to pray. It's just that in big mosques the imam can be heard.
I don't see the revelance of the microphone with the subject.
Microphones are comon object. They are not suposed to be holy like the place of mecca.
So what, the stone is more considered than the microphone.