punishment of the grave?
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i wasnt sure whether to put this here or under sunni/shia religion.... but here it is...
I have never really believed in the punishment of the grave - it is just illogical to me... and i dont believe that there is any mention of it in the quran is there?? i know speculation about the afterlife is pretty useless but this has been on my mind for a while now - and most things i know are so confused with what is quranic and what is superstition! what happens to us according to the quran after we die but before we are raised? isnt it like a sleep so we are unaware? (i cant recall the exact verse but it refers to when some souls are raised and they say we were asleep a day or two?)
Its just that when i told someone i dont believe in this she looked at me like i was insane!!
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Hello
I think there are some verses that may be talking indirectly about it, I have to find that Arabic book in my liberary and find out for you, that does not mean I believe in it, I'm actually not worried about the grave punishment as I;m worried about the JD punishment, unless the grave punishment is part of the JD punishment which something we need to confirm using the Quran, I will get back to you regarding this one, I just need a bit of time
Salam
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Previous discussions
http//free-minds.org80/forum/index.php?topic=8457.0
http//free-minds.org80/forum/index.php?topic=8178.0
http//free-minds.org80/forum/index.php?topic=10403.0
http//free-minds.org80/forum/index.php?topic=11861.0
http//free-minds.org80/forum/index.php?topic=8620.15 -
peace ay,
And certainly We created man of an extract of clay, 2312.
Then We made him a small seed in a firm resting-place, 2313.
Then We made the seed a clot, then We made the clot a lump of flesh, then We made (in) the lump of flesh bones, then We clothed the bones with flesh, then We caused it to grow into another creation, so blessed be Allah, the best of the creators. 2314.
Then after that you will most surely die. 2315.
Then surely on the day of resurrection you shall be raised. 2316.On the day when Allah will raise them up all together, then inform them of what they did Allah has recorded it while they have forgotten it; and Allah is a witness of all things. 58 6.
Of a small seed; He created him, then He made him according to a measure, 8019.
Then (as for) the way-- He has made it easy (for him) 8020.
Then He causes him to die, then assigns to him a grave, 8021.
Then when He pleases, He will raise him to life again. 8022.(Of) the day when they shall come forth, nothing concerning them remains hidden to Allah. To whom belongs the kingdom this day? To Allah, the One, the Subduer (of all). 4016.
This day every soul shall be rewarded for what it has earned; no injustice (shall be done) this day; surely Allah is quick in reckoning. 4017.Does man think that We shall not gather his bones? 75 3.
Yea! We are able to make complete his very fingertips 75 4.
Nay! man desires to give the lie to what is before him. 75 5.
He asks When is the day of resurrection? 75 6.
So when the sight becomes dazed, 75 7.
And the moon becomes dark, 75 8.
And the sun and the moon are brought together, 75 9.
Man shall say on that day Whither to fly to? 7510.
By no means! there shall be no place of refuge! 7511.
With your Lord alone shall on that day be the place of rest. 7512.
Man shall on that day be informed of what he sent before and (what he) put off. 7513.between death and resurrection on the day of judgment there is nothing but bones in the grave.
peace
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peace
will the Day come to us individually after we die
or will the Day come while we're still here on earth?and what about 2399,100
2399 Until death comes to one of them, he says "My Lord, send me back."
23100 "So that I may do good in that which I have left behind." No, it is but a word he is speaking. And there is a barrier to prevent them from going back until the Day they are all resurrected.going back where?
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2259 "Then God caused him to day a hundred years then He resurrected him and asked him How long did you stay? He said I stayed a day or less"
3055 "And on the day of judgement, the criminals will swear they stayed not but an hour..."
3652 "They will say Woe to us! Who has raised us up from our place of sleep? This is what the Most Gracious had promised and the messengers spoke the truth!"
and many other verses. I do not think if someone was being tortured in the grave, he would think that time passed so fast confused
These verses should be the proof that there is no punishment before judgement (Isn't this a principle of justice?). Any other understanding to any "relevant" verse should be based on this principle, i.e no punishment in the grave, no punishment before judgement.
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2259 "Then God caused him to day a hundred years then He resurrected him and asked him How long did you stay? He said I stayed a day or less"
3055 "And on the day of judgement, the criminals will swear they stayed not but an hour..."
3652 "They will say Woe to us! Who has raised us up from our place of sleep? This is what the Most Gracious had promised and the messengers spoke the truth!"
and many other verses. I do not think if someone was being tortured in the grave, he would think that time passed so fast confused
These verses should be the proof that there is no punishment before judgement (Isn't this a principle of justice?). Any other understanding to any "relevant" verse should be based on this principle, i.e no punishment in the grave, no punishment before judgement.
No punishment before judgement sounds fair but it's not what we see around us in the world. God has punished many criminals and many nations before the judgement day has come and before they have been judged in details. For example the people of Loot and Noah and others were tortured and destroyed before the judgement day and before their book of deeds was shown to them. So your argument doesn't hold much water. God is the judge and He can judge anytime He wants and torture/reward you in anyway He prefers.
The punishment of the grave is true and all credible muslim scholars believe in it.
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No punishment before judgement sounds fair but it's not what we see around us in the world. God has punished many criminals and many nations before the judgement day has come and before they have been judged in details. For example the people of Loot and Noah and others were tortured and destroyed before the judgement day and before their book of deeds was shown to them. So your argument doesn't hold much water. God is the judge and He can judge anytime He wants and torture/reward you in anyway He prefers.
The punishment of the grave is true and all credible muslim scholars believe in it.
How can you conclude from people being punished in this world that there is punishment in the grave? Because "cerdible muslim scholars" believe in it, and you jsut discard all the verses that I posted? And who are those "credible muslim scholars" , if I may ask?
Please tell me why would "criminals" feel that the time they spent in their graves is like ordinary sleep? They did not even seem to be happy to get up from 3652
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How can you conclude from people being punished in this world that there is punishment in the grave? Because "cerdible muslim scholars" believe in it, and you jsut discard all the verses that I posted? And who are those "credible muslim scholars" , if I may ask?
Please tell me why would "criminals" feel that the time they spent in their graves is like ordinary sleep? They did not even seem to be happy to get up from 3652
I was tackling your line of logic. You argued that there shouldn't be any punishment before the judgement day and I gave examples of people who were judged, tortured and killed by God thousands of years ago before any judgement day was in sight.
Imam Ahmad, An-Nawawi and Al-Qurtubi are just three examples of 'credible scholars' who believe in the punishment of the grave.
3652 doesn't contradict the punishment of the grave. Relative to what is to come, the punishment of the grave is light. The nature of the punishment in the grave is not clear to us because nobody has come back to tell us about it. But if we think of death as a greater sleep, then the punishment in the grave is similar to our nightmares.
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I was tackling your line of logic. You argued that there shouldn't be any punishment before the judgement day and I gave examples of people who were judged, tortured and killed by God thousands of years ago before any judgement day was in sight.
That's fine, and I did not disput this. But you then concluded that therefore there is punishment in the grave, and I dispute the invalid logic
Imam Ahmad, An-Nawawi and Al-Qurtubi are just three examples of 'credible scholars' who believe in the punishment of the grave.
Of course I know there are many for and there are also many against. But how do you know that they are credible, and why are those against not so credible?
3652 doesn't contradict the punishment of the grave. Relative to what is to come, .
Is this addition in the verse, or you think the verse should have been like that?
The nature of the punishment in the grave is not clear to us because nobody has come back to tell us about it.
Has anybody come from hell to tell us how the torture is there? Why do you want to hear it from someone? God is not enough? He told us, in details, about hellfire, but nothing about the gave torture?
But if we think of death as a greater sleep, then the punishment in the grave is similar to our nightmares.
Did your "credible scholars" say that it is similar to our nightmares?
Wouldn't you like to be wakened up from a nightmare? It seems that our criminals in 3652 were not so happy to be wakened from their nightmare, and did not even mention a "terrible" sleep. -
That's fine, and I did not disput this. But you then concluded that therefore there is punishment in the grave, and I dispute the invalid logic
Of course I know there are many for and there are also many against. But how do you know that they are credible, and why are those against not so credible?
Is this addition in the verse, or you think the verse should have been like that?
Has anybody come from hell to tell us how the torture is there? Why do you want to hear it from someone? God is not enough? He told us, in details, about hellfire, but nothing about the gave torture?
Did your "credible scholars" say that it is similar to our nightmares?
Wouldn't you like to be wakened up from a nightmare? It seems that our criminals in 3652 were not so happy to be wakened from their nightmare, and did not even mention a "terrible" sleep.This issue is not controversial among scholars at all. You make it sound like some people are for it and some are against it. It's not so. The credibility of even one of those I listed is much greater than the credibility of all of those who reject it combined. Why don't you list a few of those who reject the punishment of grave.
Read this verse
- But how (will it be) when the angels take their souls at death, and smite their faces and their backs?
So the punishment starts right there after the criminals die. Your main argument is that how could someone be punished before he is judged but here we have an example of criminals being beaten by angels when they have just died and their bodies are still warm.
Why do you think there is no punishment in the grave anyways? What's your proof?
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Read this verse
- But how (will it be) when the angels take their souls at death, and smite their faces and their backs?
So the punishment starts right there after the criminals die. Your main argument is that how could someone be punished before he is judged but here we have an example of criminals being beaten by angels when they have just died and their bodies are still warm.
Why do you think there is no punishment in the grave anyways? What's your proof?
Read this verse to complete the rest of the event
Walaw tara ith yatawaffa allatheena kafaroo almalaikatu yadriboona wujoohahum waadbarahum wathooqoo AAathaba alhareeqi
850 If thou couldst see, when the angels take the souls of the Unbelievers (at death), (How) they smite their faces and their backs, (saying) "Taste the penalty of the blazing Fire-They spend ?0? time in the grave for their next moment is resurrection/judgment.
Be careful of translations trying to fit Qur?an according to tradition.
Peace
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This issue is not controversial among scholars at all.
And does that make it right? Scholars also agree that Muhammad did say all these hadiths. Should I agree with them?
Why don't you list a few of those who reject the punishment of grave.
Why should I ? You think I care about who supports my idea and who does not? I only care about the Truth from the quraan. Number of people who share with me or their qualifications is irrelevant.
Read this verse
- But how (will it be) when the angels take their souls at death, and smite their faces and their backs?
And this is your proof of punishment in the grave? This is the moment of death. In the grave they have already passed this stage. If you have a clear verse about punishment in the grave, I am ready to accept it.
You are the one saying the punishment starts right there. But God gives examples of wrong doers who think they were just sleeping or that they have spent a day or less. Does not really look like the punishment was continuous.Why do you think there is no punishment in the grave anyways? What's your proof?
How do you want me to prove a negative statement? The burden is on you, not me.
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peace all,
3055 "And on the day of judgement, the criminals will swear they stayed not but an hour..."
and many other verses. I do not think if someone was being tortured in the grave, he would think that time passed so fast confused
Right. )
Imam Ahmad, An-Nawawi and Al-Qurtubi are just three examples of 'credible scholars' who believe in the punishment of the grave.
.do we believe in credible scholars or the verses of Quran? and what is their logic to believe in the punishment of the grave?
3652 doesn't contradict the punishment of the grave. Relative to what is to come, the punishment of the grave is light. The nature of the punishment in the grave is not clear to us because nobody has come back to tell us about it. But if we think of death as a greater sleep, then the punishment in the grave is similar to our nightmares.
All that remains in the grave is bones and if bones can dream I will agree with you
peace
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There is no mention of "punishment of the grave" in the quran. Not every dead body gets the physical grave. That is why at one place quran says And when the graves are laid open 824
And on the other place like in 3652 clearly mention sleeping places, wherever some one is resting, either grave, air, water etc....
3652
They shall say O woe to us! who has raised us up from our sleeping-place? This is what the Beneficent Allah promised and the messengers told the truth.Nowhere quran says sleeping-places/graves are the torture cells for the dead body.
Salam
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There is no mention of "punishment of the grave" in the quran. Not every dead body gets the physical grave. That is why at one place quran says And when the graves are laid open 824
And on the other place like in 3652 clearly mention sleeping places, wherever some one is resting, either grave, air, water etc....
3652
They shall say O woe to us! who has raised us up from our sleeping-place? This is what the Beneficent Allah promised and the messengers told the truth.Nowhere quran says sleeping-places/graves are the torture cells for the dead body.
Salam
Right bro )
And also what about those dead who ain't buried?
The Parsis traditionally leave corpses exposed on towers for vultures and other carrion-eating birds.
The Hindus burn their dead and then sprinkle their ashes in Ganges.
Parsis and Hindus have learned to by pass this punishment in the grave ;D
peace
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Peace,
and many other verses. I do not think if someone was being tortured in the grave, he would think that time passed so fast confused
Exactly. Considering the punishment is supposed to be so severe, I doubt someone would ask, who woke us up from our 'resting places'. )- The Day the horn is blown, and We gather the criminals on that Day white eyed.
- They whisper amongst themselves ?You have only been away for a period of ten.?
- We are fully aware of what they say, for the best in knowledge amongst them will say ?No, you have only been away for a day.?
These verses should be the proof that there is no punishment before judgement (Isn't this a principle of justice?). Any other understanding to any "relevant" verse should be based on this principle, i.e no punishment in the grave, no punishment before judgement.
No punishment before judgement sounds fair but it's not what we see around us in the world. God has punished many criminals and many nations before the judgement day has come and before they have been judged in details. For example the people of Loot and Noah and others were tortured and destroyed before the judgement day and before their book of deeds was shown to them.
- So God made them taste the humiliation in this worldly life, but the retribution in the Hereafter is far greater, if only they knew.
285 Do you believe in some of the Scripture and disbelieve in some? The punishment for those amongst you who do so is humiliation in this worldly life, and on the Day of Resurrection they will be returned to the most severe retribution. God is not unaware of what you all do.
Then after that, you will die.
Then you will be resurrected on the Day of Resurrection.Nothing else in between? hmm
There is not one place in the quran that mentions the subject of 'life (good or bad) in the grave'. Oh, unless if the quran is not complete, or something? )
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peace all,
Those who believe in this punishment say that as soon as a person is buried, the angels come and investigation/punishment starts.
These verses negate their claims
And those who do not hope for Our meeting, say Why have not angels been sent down upon us, or (why) do we not see our Lord? Now certainly they are too proud of themselves and have revolted in great revolt. 2521.
On the day when they shall see the angels, there shall be no joy on that day for the guilty, and they shall say It is a forbidden thing totally prohibited. 2522.
And We will proceed to what they have done of deeds, so We shall render them as scattered floating dust. 2523.
The dwellers of the garden shall on that day be in a better abiding-place and a better resting-place. 2524.
And on the day when the heaven shall burst asunder with the clouds, and the angels shall be sent down descending (in ranks). 2525.
The kingdom on that day shall rightly belong to the Beneficent Allah, and a hard day shall it be for the unbelievers. 2526.
And that day is the day of judgment.
peace
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You are all a confused bunch. Quran has not described many things and that's not the proof that they don't exist. We need the hadith to see the whole picture. Also I think it's very arrogant to refuse to consider what scholars have to say on this matter. You think you know Quran but these people have spent their lives studying it from every aspect. You think you are more intelligent than them? I greatly doubt it.
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You are all a confused bunch. Quran has not described many things and that's not the proof that they don't exist. We need the hadith to see the whole picture. Also I think it's very arrogant to refuse to consider what scholars have to say on this matter. You think you know Quran but these people have spent their lives studying it from every aspect. You think you are more intelligent than them? I greatly doubt it.
Thanks for clarification. ............... rotfl