punishment of the grave?
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Peace Ahmed,
continue reading to see it's during/after judgement...
4046 In front of the Fire will they be brought, morning and evening And (the sentence will be) on the Day that Judgment will be established "Cast ye the People of Pharaoh into the severest Penalty!"
4047 Behold, they will dispute with each other in the Fire! The weak ones (who followed) will say to those who had been arrogant, "We but followed you Can ye then take (on yourselves) from us some share of the Fire?
4048 Those who had been arrogant will say "We are all in this (Fire)! Truly, Allah has judged between (his) Servants!"
Salam bro
The verse clealy tells us that the fire will be shown to them "Ghdwan Wa Ashian" and that can't be on the JD, however the verse have another clue that it can't be on the JD because the same verse is telling us about another event that is on the JD
47 and 48 are events on the JD, and this is how 46 finfished, it finished with the second event on the JD "Wa Yawm Taqum Al Saa3a"
Salam
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Peace Nun and all,
And this is what I was trying to convey. That there is a significant time period between the resurrection, judgement 'day' and going into heaven or hell.
- He said ?Enter with the multitude of nations before you from humans and Jinn to the Fire!? Every time a nation entered, it cursed its sister nation, until they are all gathered inside it; then the last of them says to the first ?Our Lord, these are the ones who have misguided us, so give them double the retribution of the Fire!? He replied ?Each will receive double, but you do not know.?
- And the first of them said to the last ?You have no preference over us, so taste the retribution for what you earned!?
Even going into hell is not instant. So couldn't the 'fire be exposed day and night' during this time?
peace
Salam bro
and where exactly in the Quran it tells us that on the JD and the days after it we will have "Ghdwan wa Ashaian", you klnow like the salat time per day so based on your understanding the days after the JD includiing the JD must be simialr to our days, i.e. they must have Ghdwan wa Ashaian", is that what you are saying?
Salam
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Salaam AB, all
I agree and even they will say that they lasted an hour of a day, but the verses are not explicit to the period of death, in fact it should also cover the period they lived before they died,
Why "should" it? Are these your additions? There is nothing in the quraan that says their lives are covered by this period. In fact the following verse says the opposite of what you wrongly claim explicitly verse 2259
( 259
I dont get what you are saying really, you are coming to us with two exceptions that constitute 100% as far as I believe,
Constitute 100% of what? Did I say anything that remotely means this? How can exceptions constitute any percentage?
Extremes are not exceptions, they are the top and bottom end of the scale, i.e. you have many in between.
Well, you can say for sure that the verse said not other Al Firon will see that torture in the graves, the verse never denied that others may see it as well, that is why this verse is an indication to the grave torture for all losers.
The above could have been correct IF we only have these two examples. Since we have numerous verses about death and resurrection of CRIMINALS, and NO INDICATION WHATSOEVER of any kind of torture, implicitly or explicitly in their graves, but in fact the opposite, then these verses constitute "the many in between". The verse about Pharon et al's torture in the "grave" will be limited to them.
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Peace Samia,
Please see the explanation I posted above. 4046 is not talking about torture in grave of ANYONE, but of the Azaab of people of Firon morning and evening in Hell. Thus there are NO EXCEPTIONS which prove any torture in the grave, otherwise there will be a contradiction with 3652 as you admitted yourself. In the Qur'aan, exceptions are preceded by "illa"/except.
Per my above posted explanation, 4046 can also be read like this in English
4046 The Fire, which they will be exposed to morning and evening; and the people of Pharaoh enter into the most severe of the retribution on the Day when the Hour is established.
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Hello All
So far they are still in denial, the verse I posted clearly talks about two events for those who claim to understand Arabic, the first event is continues (twice a day) then the same verse told us "WA YAWM TAQUM AL SAA3A", i.e. "AND WHEN THE SAA3A COMES", i.e. "WHEN THE JD COMES", i.e. when a second event starts
Now here is the important clue for them, in the first event the fire was only SHOWN to them twice a day, in the second event, they will ENTER that fire, i.e. the fire SHOWTIME twice a day has stopped on that day when the SAA3A comes
No slam dunks this time i will save it to later time on this thread but hey
IT's SHOWTIME
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Peace Samia,
Please see the explanation I posted above. 4046 is not talking about torture in grave of ANYONE, but of the Azaab of people of Firon morning and evening in Hell. Thus there are NO EXCEPTIONS which prove any torture in the grave, otherwise there will be a contradiction with 3652 as you admitted yourself. In the Qur'aan, exceptions are preceded by "illa"/except.
Per my above posted explanation, 4046 can also be read like this
4046 The Fire, which they will be exposed to morning and evening; and admit the people of Pharaoh into the most severe of the retribution on the Day when the Hour is established.
Salaam Tanweer, all
I think you and brother zenje speak of two different things. I will leave brother zenje to comment, least I am wrong.
As for Pharon's torture, I find that verse 4046 could mean one or the other, but we have verse 285-6 which shows that they will see their defeat and the destruction of their kingdom, and victory of bani Israel. This is already a kind of torture. I was trying to compare this with the case of those who were killed in the cause of God, and that they stay "awake" and watch what's going on. Neither party is asleep, but the good ones were said to be "alive", a positive meaning. The contrast with these two extreme cases is with the criminals, and of course the dead in general, who will think that they were asleep and have no connection with this world.
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Peace all,
According to Lane's Lexicon
Ayn-Ra-Dad = to take place, happen, offer, present, show, propound, set before, give a hint, come against, propose, expose, review (troops), view, prepare. aruDa - to be broad, widened. arDun - goods, width. irDun - honour. urDatun -
Thus "yu3radoon" can also mean offered, presented.
Thus a better translation of 4045-46 would be
So God protected him from the evil of what they schemed, while the people of Pharaoh have incurred the worst retribution The Fire, which they will be offered/presented to morning and evening;
And the people of Pharaoh enter into the most severe of the retribution on the Day when the Hour is established.
Offered to the fire is same as entering the fire.
Sis Samia, I know that bro Zenje and me are talking about 2 different things. Can you comment on my explanation and the translation above, if that can be a valid translation ?
This will eliminate the contradiction with 3652 without making any torture in grave an exception. 4046 talks about the Azaab of people of Firon morning and evening in Hell which will happen on the Day of Judgment.
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rotfl rotfl
Well all,
Whatever you want to translate Yuradoon , makes no difference nor it is a refute to my argument, however I consider it a Tom and Jerry refute which has to be dismissed, because whatever the word mean,i.e show, present, make them see it, give it, play a movie, play a dvd, i really care less, it is obvious that this is a first and continues event that happened twice a day before the second even which is the Saa3a, i.e. the JD, i,e, whatever was going on to them was only happening in the bloody grave
As I said Quran aloners, refute that but not Tom and Jerry refutes please
Salam
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Peace all,
As everyone can see, there is no arabic word "qabl"/before in 4046, nor any word meaning "grave".
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peace all,
*On the day when Allah will raise them all together and iinform them of what they did. Allah hath kept account of it while they forgot it. And Allah is Witness over all things. 586
*On the day when every soul will find itself confronted with all that it hath done of good and all that it hath done of evil (every soul) will long that there might be a mighty apace of distance between it and that (evil). Allah biddeth you beware of Him. And Allah is full of pity for (His) bondmen.330
*Every soul will taste of death. And ye will be paid on the Day of Resurrection only that which ye have fairly earned. Whoso is removed from the Fire and is made to enter Paradise, he indeed is triumphant. The life of this world is but comfort of illusion.3185
330 clearly says that ONLY on the JUDGMENT DAY will EVERY SOUL FIND itself CONFRONTED WITH ALL that it hath done.
Every soul means every soul and that doesn?t exclude FIRON or his people.
Judgment after the punishment is?illogical??.it may go well with the lords of GUANTANAMO BAY prison?..but doesn?t seem to go well at all when it comes to the Lord of the day of judgment and the universe.
peace
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Peace bro Nadeem,
Thank you for the relevant signs. One of the signs given by you above contains something that was not highlighted but also proves the same point.
586 On the day when Allah will raise them all together and inform them of what they did. Allah hath kept account of it while they forgot it. And Allah is Witness over all things.
If they were being punished in the grave before they were raised, the punishment must not have hurt at all, BECAUSE THEY FORGOT IT !! P
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Peace bro Nadeem,
Thank you for the relevant signs. One of the signs given by you above contains something that was not highlighted but also proves the same point.
586 On the day when Allah will raise them all together and inform them of what they did. Allah hath kept account of it while they forgot it. And Allah is Witness over all things.
If they were being punished in the grave before they were raised, the punishment must not have hurt at all, BECAUSE THEY FORGOT IT !!
Thank you tanveer bhai for highlighting it...Good job
peace
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Peace all,
According to Lane's Lexicon
Ayn-Ra-Dad = to take place, happen, offer, present, show, propound, set before, give a hint, come against, propose, expose, review (troops), view, prepare. aruDa - to be broad, widened. arDun - goods, width. irDun - honour. urDatun -
Thus "yu3radoon" can also mean offered, presented.
Thus a better translation of 4045-46 would be
So God protected him from the evil of what they schemed, while the people of Pharaoh have incurred the worst retribution The Fire, which they will be offered/presented to morning and evening;
And the people of Pharaoh enter into the most severe of the retribution on the Day when the Hour is established.
Offered to the fire is same as entering the fire.
Sis Samia, I know that bro Zenje and me are talking about 2 different things. Can you comment on my explanation and the translation above, if that can be a valid translation ?
This will eliminate the contradiction with 3652 without making any torture in grave an exception. 4046 talks about the Azaab of people of Firon morning and evening in Hell which will happen on the Day of Judgment.
Salaam Tanweer, all
I find the translation corretc. I think not only you and Zenje, but maybe me on one side and the others on the other side who are talking of different things!!
For me, torture is not that they were grilled in hell/fire, but that they know what they are getting. They did not believe that before, and live with peaceful mind. But not anymore since they die. Now the SEE the fire. This is what is expressed by "bad/worst torture". Then when they actually are sent to be grilled (on JD), this is what is called (the utmost/most severe torture). It is psychological torture, doubled by what they see of the distruction of their kingdom and the elevation of their enemies. I believe that this is an exception. God gave us three examples of what happens afterpeople die- Those who were killed in the cause of God
- Pharon, Hamaan and their soldiers (not their people, as AB put it).
- All others, including good and bad people
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- Pharon, Hamaan and their soldiers (not their people, as AB put it).
Hello Samia
Do you really speak Arabic?
The words in the verse are AL FIRON, i.e. the people of Firon
Who are you kiddin exacly? not me of course
Please stop misleading others because they think that you speak Arabic
Salam
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Peace AB,
Salam bro
and where exactly in the Quran it tells us that on the JD and the days after it we will have "Ghdwan wa Ashaian", you klnow like the salat time per day so based on your understanding the days after the JD includiing the JD must be simialr to our days, i.e. they must have Ghdwan wa Ashaian", is that what you are saying?
No. I am not assuming that the 'day' then is the same as now. Far from it. I think we both agree that there is a significant amount of 'time' between day of resurrection and day of heaven/hell. You said that these are two separate events. And I tend to agree. But then you use that argument to validate that this is in the grave. Just as you say it's not on JD (which, again, I agree), I say it's not in the grave for the same reason. So tell me why you think it's NOT before JD but after resurrection. Or do you believe that JD and Resurrection are the same day?
Peace Samia,
For me, torture is not that they were grilled in hell/fire, but that they know what they are getting. They did not believe that before, and live with peaceful mind. But not anymore since they die. Now the SEE the fire.
Just to clarify, when is this?... in the graves?
Thanks -
Peace AB,
Salam mate
No. I am not assuming that the 'day' then is the same as now.
Exactly becase the day we have now is based on the rotation of the earth around its axis infront of the sun, but on the JD all that is going to be replaced as you know, therefore Ghdwan WA Ashaian MUST BE IN THIS LIFE
Far from it. I think we both agree that there is a significant amount of 'time' between day of resurrection and day of heaven/hell.
Yep but ther is no Ghudwan Wa Ashaian, do you agree on that? or at least do you agree that Ghdwan Wa Ashaian are two differnt times in our earth day?
You said that these are two separate events. And I tend to agree.
Great, but it seem you are putting both events after the JD starts while the verse says the contrary, it is clear as light that the first event is before the Saa3a, this is obvious from the words "WA YAWM TAQUM AL SAA3A"
But then you use that argument to validate that this is in the grave.
Of course it has to be because of the following reasons
- this continues event must be before the JD because the words "Wa Yawm Taqum Al Saa3a"
- this continues event happens twice a day at two specific times "Gudwan wa Ashaian" and that has to be in this life
- this continues event can't be while they are alove therefor it has to be during their time in the grave
no question about it
Just as you say it's not on JD (which, again, I agree),
well the verse is talking about the Saa3a not really a day, i.e. the hour on an earth day when the JD starts
I say it's not in the grave for the same reason.
but if you agree that it is before the JD starts, then how come they see the fire twice a day while they are alive?
So tell me why you think it's NOT before JD but after resurrection. Or do you believe that JD and Resurrection are the same day?
Because the first event was stopped AT THE HOUR WHEN THE JD STARTS, "WA YAWM TAQUM AL SAA3A"
i.e. the day mentioned "Yawm" is our earthy days and in an hour on that earth day the JD will start and our earthy days will stop
Salam
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- Pharon, Hamaan and their soldiers (not their people, as AB put it).
Salaam Samia, all
I agree with you sis, Al Firon doesn't mean his people/nation. According to Quran AL only means people who follow Firon. The woman of Firon wasn't among his AL. And also when Nuh said to God about his son that his son was among his Al, the God said NO he wasn't.
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Peace all,
The first part of 4046 is separate from the second part and both parts talk about the same event. The first part is a continuation of 4045.
So God protected him from the evil of what they schemed, while the people of Pharaoh have incurred the worst retribution The Fire, which they will be offered/presented to morning and evening;
And the people of Pharaoh enter into the most severe of the retribution on the Day when the Hour is established.
The first part talks about the Azaab being in morning and evening. The second part talks about the same Azaab starting on the Last Day.
No one knows what the Day of Judgment will be like, so how can one say there will be no morning and evening thereafter ? Morning and evening here could also be metaphorical, or could be idiomatic for "all the time" or "the whole day".
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Hello All
Sounds like some suffer from a very low IQ
The people of Firon does not mean his family alone, ironically they contradicted themselves and said Al Firon are the ones who followed him
hahahaha
i.e. Al Firon = the people of Firon but does not have to be his family, i.e. the ones around him who bloody followed him and that is what I'm saying
I never identified a person within that people unlike others who did
They are still in denial, sounds like the grave punishment scares them so they want it to be not true
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Peace all,
1315 And to God prostrate all who are in the heavens and the Earth, willingly and unwillingly, as do their shadows in the morning and the evening.
The shadows do not disappear at noon or afternoon. Here "morning and evening" imply the whole daytime.
1961 The gardens of Eden, which the Almighty had promised His servants in the unseen. His promise must come to pass.
1962 They will not hear in it any nonsense, only peace. And they will have their provision in it morning and evening.Here morning and evening is clearly used for Heaven. Similarly, there could be morning and evening in Hell too.
These two examples from al-qur'aan destroy someone's "morning and evening" theory being only in the earthly life, and signifying only two times a day.
Notice the similar phrases used in 4045-46 and 1961-62 for Hell and Heaven
4045-46 So God protected him from the evil of what they schemed, while the people of Pharaoh have incurred the worst retribution The Fire, which they will be offered/presented to morning and evening; And the people of Pharaoh enter into the most severe of the retribution on the Day when the Hour is established.
1961-62 The gardens of Eden, which the Almighty had promised His servants in the unseen. His promise must come to pass. They will not hear in it any nonsense, only peace. And they will have their provision in it morning and evening.