punishment of the grave?
-
You are all a confused bunch. Quran has not described many things and that's not the proof that they don't exist. We need the hadith to see the whole picture. Also I think it's very arrogant to refuse to consider what scholars have to say on this matter. You think you know Quran but these people have spent their lives studying it from every aspect. You think you are more intelligent than them? I greatly doubt it.
Hello
Well, you can only defeat those bunch by using the Quran alone
See, how they all got excited trying hard to flaw the torture in the grave?, well to defeat them you need to talk Quran alone exactly as I'm going to do right now
Excuse me all, there is a verse in the Quran that clearly proves that there will be torture between death and the JD, i.e. in the grave, this is the only place we reside in after we die and till the JD
The fire; they shall be brought before it (every) morning and evening and on the day when the hour shall come to pass Make Firon's people enter the severest chastisement.
(46)
-> See, the verse us talking about a bunch of losers, the people of Firon, see what it says "The fire; they shall be brought before it (every) morning and evening", and when the JD comes "and on the day when the hour shall come to pass Make Firon's people enter the severest chastisement."
I.100% E. there is torture in the grave
Refute that (Quran aloners)
http//free-islam.com/extraimages/slamdunk.gif
-
4046
Asad the fire which they had been made to contemplate , morning and evening for on the Day when the Last Hour dawns , "Make Pharaoh's folk enter upon suffering most severe!"QXP The Fire of which they had been warned day and night - for, on the Day when the Hour dawns, it will be said, "Cast Pharaoh's folk into the toughest penalty."
-
4046
Asad the fire which they had been made to contemplate , morning and evening for on the Day when the Last Hour dawns , "Make Pharaoh's folk enter upon suffering most severe!"QXP The Fire of which they had been warned day and night - for, on the Day when the Hour dawns, it will be said, "Cast Pharaoh's folk into the toughest penalty."
????????
-
Exposition of quran by Parwez
- They suffered everlasting chastisement and destruction in this world. Furthermore on the Day of Judgement, a command will be given that they should be severely punished (7133; 2842).
-
Peace AB,
I.100% E. there is torture in the grave
I have some questions;
What makes you think 4046 is about the grave? ??? Are you saying there'll be FIRE in the grave? Do you believe that there will be some time taken between Resurrection Day and getting into hell? Or is it instant?Thanks.
-
Peace AB,I have some questions;
Salam mate
Sure
What makes you think 4046 is about the grave? ???
Because it says Al Nar YURADOON ALAIHA, i.e. the FIRE IS SHOWED TO THEM, like a NIGHTMERE EXACTLY, the verse even told us that it will happen TWICE A DAY "Ghudduwan Wa Ashaian", this can never true while they are alive of course and sure can not be after the JD because the verse clearly said "Wa Yawm Taqum Al Saa3e" i.e. another event and on that that day they will ENETER THE SEREVEST OF AZAB, this indicates that what the verse told us about showing the fire to them twice a day is a lesser AZAB in another event.
Are you saying there'll be FIRE in the grave?
No, what Allah is saying in the verse that those losers will see the fire twice a day, they are dead of course, i.e. asleep, i.e. they will expreice nightmeres twice a day by seeing their eternal destination, that must be an aweful AZAB, dont you reckon?, imagine you are going through a horrible nightmere but you can't wake yourself up to escape from it.
Do you believe that there will be some time taken between Resurrection Day and getting into hell? Or is it instant?
Of course it is instant, it is like we sleet for 10 hours then we wake up, it will feel exactly like it (a second), however during our sleep most of us can expreince horrible nightmeres that can be felt as time based for eternity, surely death and sleep and tighed togther as the Quran told us.
Thanks.
Cheers
-
Exposition of quran by Parwez
- They suffered everlasting chastisement and destruction in this world. Furthermore on the Day of Judgement, a command will be given that they should be severely punished (7133; 2842).
Hello
but that is misleading, the verse never said this lie "They suffered everlasting chastisement and destruction in this world.", in fact the verse said two times a day, like the salat you know
Parwez must be a liar then
Is that your refute, or you blindly following Parwez?
-
Hello
but that is misleading, the verse never said this lie "They suffered everlasting chastisement and destruction in this world.", in fact the verse said two times a day, like the salat you know
Parwez must be a liar then
Is that your refute, or you blindly following Parwez?
You are truely and really a blind person, you cannot see I have presented translations by two other translators as well. I have 20 translations, and I compare all of them.
Your translation
"The fire; they shall be brought before it (every) morning and evening", and when the JD comes "and on the day when the hour shall come to pass Make Firon's people enter the severest chastisement."
I.100% E. there is torture in the grave
which word in the verse say "torture in the grave"?????
Are you a liar?......... rotfl
-
Peace AB,
Because it says Al Nar YURADOON ALAIHA, i.e. the FIRE IS SHOWED TO THEM, like a NIGHTMERE EXACTLY...
No, what Allah is saying in the verse that those losers will see the fire twice a day, they are dead of course, i.e. asleep, i.e. they will expreice nightmeres twice a day by seeing their eternal destination, that must be an aweful AZAB, dont you reckon?, imagine you are going through a horrible nightmere but you can't wake yourself up to escape from it.
See, this we can come to an agreement. A dream state, because the soul still exists. handshakeBut this is NOTHING, like what we're told of PUNISHMENT in the grave.
Of course it is instant, it is like we sleet for 10 hours then we wake up, it will feel exactly like it (a second), however during our sleep most of us can expreince horrible nightmeres that can be felt as time based for eternity, surely death and sleep and tighed togther as the Quran told us.
I think you mis-understood me here. What I meant is between The DAY of Resurrection, and the actual stepping into hell... is that instant?
Peace
-
Peace Zen,
What I meant is between The DAY of Resurrection, and the actual stepping into hell... is that instant?
If I understood your question right, let me try to solve this puzzle..... ;D
What possibly could happen,....after they get their morning routine punishment they would be resurrected, and before their evening routine punishment they would be pushed into hell...........did it solve the problem? &
-
-
You are truely and really a blind person, you cannot see I have presented translations by two other translators as well. I have 20 translations, and I compare all of them.
Your translation
which word in the verse say "torture in the grave"?????Are you a liar?......... rotfl
Good and thanks for setting up the base line between us, you can shove your translations, I speak Arabic mister
you are dismissed for life
-
Peace AB, See, this we can come to an agreement. A dream state, because the soul still exists. handshake
Salam mate
sure, I agree with that
But this is NOTHING, like what we're told of PUNISHMENT in the grave.
I donlt look at hearsay, I only look at the Arabic Quran, the verse I posted clearly indicates that there will be somne sort of torture being like a nightmere that the losers will go through between death and the JD, the losers can only reside in the grave during that time unlike the ignorant member who is calling himself Rasool and living his barbie deluded world
I think you mis-understood me here. What I meant is between The DAY of Resurrection, and the actual stepping into hell... is that instant?
No I donlt think that is instant, I reckon it is going to be a very long day but not a 24 hour day as we know it now
Peace
Salam
-
Salaam all
We have a bulk of verses that clearly show that when criminals are resurrected, their first comments are that they were asleep, they spent a day or less, they wonder who woke them up...hardly a case of "torture in the grave".
Then we have the verse of Pharon. Does the quraan contradicts itself? Either we just pick up a verse like that of Pharon to prove there is punishment in the grave, and thus agree that there is contradiction, or we try to understand how both the verses about criminals and this of Pharon should not be contradicting each other.
I will, of course, adopt the second option.
In the other extreme of Pharon, we have these verses
2154 And do not say of those who are killed in the cause of God "They are dead", no, they are living but you perceive not.
The same meaning is repeated in 3169; 3170 further shows us that, although we do not perceive them, they do perceive us "...(they) rejoice for those who have not joined them yet that on them no fear shall come nor shall they grieve"
3626 It was said (to him) Enter Paradise." He said "I wish my people would know...
These are exception. They are told what they are to expect. They still feel for their people on earth, whether foes or friends.
Pharon is an exception on the other extreme. He, too, saw his kingdom destroyed and his slaves, banu Israel, being elevated
285-6 "And We wished to do a favour to those who were oppressed in the land and make them rulers and make them the inheritors; and to establish them in the land and show Pharon, Hamaan and their soldiers what they feared"
Pharon et al would only see what they feared while they are dead, because victory to the children of Israel happened after their death.
This is already a huge torture to Pharon, plus the hellfire that they will be shown day and night.
As I said, these are two extremes, and the quraan detailed them in more than one verse. In other words, these are the exceptions. Not every good soul will be "living by God's side, receiving bounty from Him", nor anyone other than Pharon et al will be shown their future , and actual torture before judgement day.
I say in conclusion, in the grave we do not feel anything other than sleep, and this is according to the bulk of verses in the quraan. In other words, there is neither punishment nor reward in the grave.
The two exceptional cases (of those who were killed in the cause of God and Pharon) are not the rule. They stay as exceptions.
-
Salaam all
We have a bulk of verses that clearly show that when criminals are resurrected, their first comments are that they were asleep, they spent a day or less, they wonder who woke them up...hardly a case of "torture in the grave".
Salam Samia
I agree and even they will say that they lasted an hour of a day, but the verses are not explicit to the period of death, in fact it should also cover the period they lived before they died, that is exactly how it feels even when you are awake, for example I?m 42 years old now, those 42 for me lasted like an hour, of course that is only after the time pass, imagine I was asleep all those 42 years then, surely it will feel like an hour or even a second, that does not mean that I have not been through horrible nightmares during my 42 years of sleep
Then we have the verse of Pharon.
It is actually the verse of Al Firon, i.e. the verse is about a bunch pf people NOT JUST FIRON
Does the quraan contradicts itself?
Of course it does not nor I see any contradiction between Al Firon verse and the other verses that it tell us they only lasted an hour of a day, because the hour of a day they felt also covers the time they lived before they died, in fact it fits more if it is about the period they lived and not the period they lasted during death that is because they are asleep during death and had no life to remember other than what they really lived which will look on the resurrection as an hour of a day.
Either we just pick up a verse like that of Pharon to prove there is punishment in the grave, and thus agree that there is contradiction,
The verse is in front of your eyes and you claim to be an Arabic speaker, the verse says Al Firon will be shown the fire twice a day, that can only happen while they are dead in their graves, it can not be when they were alive of course and sure it can't be after the JD because the JD is mentioned as a future event in the same verse, therefore it has to be about the period they are dead and while they are in the grave, seeing the nightmare as simulated in the grave or any other place (during the nightmare) makes no difference because they are physically in the grave.
or we try to understand how both the verses about criminals and this of Pharon should not be contradicting each other.
Again the verse about AL Firon, in fact there is no compelling reason to say Al Firon should include Firon himself, it can be his people without him, do you agree?
I will, of course, adopt the second option.
But you can?t deny that Al Firon will go through torture of seeing hell twice a day while they dead in the grace, this is what the verse says (it does not mention the grave) but a kid with a brain the size of ping pong ball should recognise that the verse can only be talking about the period of being dead and sure in that period we live in the graves or at least this is what Allah ordained on us (i.e. to burry the dead in graves)
In the other extreme of Pharon, we have these verses
2154 And do not say of those who are killed in the cause of God "They are dead", no, they are living but you perceive not.
The same meaning is repeated in 3169; 3170 further shows us that, although we do not perceive them, they do perceive us "...(they) rejoice for those who have not joined them yet that on them no fear shall come nor shall they grieve"
Sorry that is a Tutty Fruity fallacy, you are talking about those who prospered not the bad guys (the losers) who will be tortured in the graves while they are asleep by watching their residence in hell twice a day
3626 It was said (to him) Enter Paradise." He said "I wish my people would know...
These are exception. They are told what they are to expect. They still feel for their people on earth, whether foes or friends.
I dont get what you are saying really, you are coming to us with two exceptions that constitute 100% as far as I believe, i.e. you either win or loose, so the example of Firon people is the clear cut losers and the example you brought in is the clear cut winners.
Pharon is an exception on the other extreme. He, too, saw his kingdom destroyed and his slaves, banu Israel, being elevated
285-6 "And We wished to do a favour to those who were oppressed in the land and make them rulers and make them the inheritors; and to establish them in the land and show Pharon, Hamaan and their soldiers what they feared"
Pharon et al would only see what they feared while they are dead, because victory to the children of Israel happened after their death.
hmmm, so you agree that the verse is about the people of Firon, do you know if Firon is included in them?
This is already a huge torture to Pharon, plus the hellfire that they will be shown day and night.
so do you believe that the people of Firon while they are dead they will see hell twice a day till the day of Judgment in a sort of nightmares or real?
As I said, these are two extremes, and the quraan detailed them in more than one verse. In other words, these are the exceptions.
Extremes are not exceptions, they are the top and bottom end of the scale, i.e. you have many in between.
Not every good soul will be "living by God's side, receiving bounty from Him", nor anyone other than Pharon et al will be shown their future , and actual torture before judgement day.
Well, you can say for sure that the verse said not other Al Firon will see that torture in the graves, the verse never denied that others may see it as well, that is why this verse is an indication to the grave torture for all losers.
I say in conclusion, in the grave we do not feel anything other than sleep,
That is right, and that is how Firon and his people are doing right now, they are asleep but going through dual nightmare everyday and till the day of JD
and this is according to the bulk of verses in the quraan. In other words, there is neither punishment nor reward in the grave.
We are not talking about rewards, we are talking about punishment in the grave, and clearly the verse of Al Firon does not explicitly state that this can only happen to Al Firon
The two exceptional cases (of those who were killed in the cause of God and Pharon) are not the rule. They stay as exceptions.
There is nothing in the Quran that said these two cases are exceptions.
-
...the verse says Al Firon will be shown the fire twice a day, that can only happen while they are dead in their graves, it can not be when they were alive of course and sure it can't be after the JD because the JD is mentioned as a future event in the same verse,...
Peace Ahmed,
continue reading to see it's during/after judgement...
4046 In front of the Fire will they be brought, morning and evening And (the sentence will be) on the Day that Judgment will be established "Cast ye the People of Pharaoh into the severest Penalty!"
4047 Behold, they will dispute with each other in the Fire! The weak ones (who followed) will say to those who had been arrogant, "We but followed you Can ye then take (on yourselves) from us some share of the Fire?
4048 Those who had been arrogant will say "We are all in this (Fire)! Truly, Allah has judged between (his) Servants!"
-
Peace Nun and all,
And this is what I was trying to convey. That there is a significant time period between the resurrection, judgement 'day' and going into heaven or hell.
- He said ?Enter with the multitude of nations before you from humans and Jinn to the Fire!? Every time a nation entered, it cursed its sister nation, until they are all gathered inside it; then the last of them says to the first ?Our Lord, these are the ones who have misguided us, so give them double the retribution of the Fire!? He replied ?Each will receive double, but you do not know.?
- And the first of them said to the last ?You have no preference over us, so taste the retribution for what you earned!?
Even going into hell is not instant. So couldn't the 'fire be exposed day and night' during this time?
peace
-
Peace bro Zein,
I think you have it wrong because of the following sign
3055 And the Day the Hour is established, the criminals will swear that they have remained only for an hour! Thus they were deluded.
This sign shows us clearly that the Day the Hour is established (referred to in 4046) is the Last Day (Day of Judgment) just after the earthly life, and not the day when the criminals will be actually put in fire.
Everywhere in the Qur'aan, where "the Hour" is mentioned, it refers to the Last Day.
The important thing to be noticed is that in 3055, the criminals will feel like their life on earth lasted only an hour. How come they did not remember being exposed to the fire morning and evening before the Last Day, if exposing them to the fire morning and evening was in fact before the Last Day ?
This proves that 4046 could not have been talking about exposing them to the fire morning and evening BEFORE the Day of Judgement.
If we read the sign before 4046 and see the context, it becomes clear that "exposing them to the fire morning and evening" is not before the Last Day, but refers to their actual punishment in the fire AFTER the Last Day.
4045 So God protected him from the evil of what they schemed, while the people of Pharaoh have incurred the worst retribution
4046 The Fire, which they will be exposed to morning and evening; and on the Day when the Hour is established "Admit the people of Pharaoh into the most severe of the retribution."As we know that the verse markers and the verse numbers are completely arbitrary and man-made and were invented just for ease of reference, so we cannot use them to decide when one sign ends and when the other starts.
If we take AB's interpretation as the correct one, in which he puts a full stop "." after end of 4045 and makes the whole 4046 one continuous sentence without any breaks, that creates contradiction in the Qur'aan, for example with 3652. It also does not make much sense, because it forces the reader to take a break after "when the Hour is established" and before "Admit the people.......", in which case one would ask when the people of Firon will be admitted into the Azaab. If the answer is "on the Day when the Hour is established", then that part of 4046 cannot be a continuation of "they will be exposed to morning and evening", but will be a separate idea.
However, if we put a colon "" after end of 4045, and put a semi colon ";" after "morning and evening" in 4046, then the contradiction is resolved and it makes perfect sense.
The relevant signs will then read like this
So God protected him from the evil of what they schemed, while the people of Pharaoh have incurred the worst retribution the Fire, which they will be exposed to morning and evening;
And on the Day when the Hour is established "Admit the people of Pharaoh into the most severe of the retribution.
It would mean that the people of Firon will incur the worst retribution which is the fire which they will be exposed to morning and evening.
The subsequent part of the verse 4046 is not a continuation but talks about a separate subject of the people of Firon being admitted into the most severe Azaab on the Day of the Hour. This most severe Azaab on the Day of the Hour will be THE SAME as the worst Azaab of exposing them to the fire morning and evening, which is apparent from the similar phrasing being used in the two signs of "the worst retribution", and "the most severe of the retribution".
Hence, the "morning and evening" being mentioned is not BEFORE the Day of the Hour, but is part of the previous verse, and refers to the criminals' being exposed to the fire morning and evening in the Hell.
Sister Samia, what do you think of the above ?