Can we finally answer the question of timing of salaat and sawm?

Bigmo

Salaam all

I think verse 2239 might shed some light on the meaning of "wustaa"

2238 Guard strictly the "salawwat" and the "salaat wustaa" and stand to God in obedience
2239 So (then), if you are scared/worried, then on foot (walking/running) or riding.....

The two verses are connected with the which I translated as "So". So if they are afraid or worried, then what not perform salaat OR reduce the quality of it? The verse does not say don't perform it, but says perform it in any state, which will not be the perfect or balanced way, but a lesser quality. I believe , hence, wustaa is about the quality of salaat, not an extra one.

Hmm, I have never actually noticed the verse after it. Interesting.

progod

Peace,

Samia it is socialization. However don't be fooled by the common use of this English word as a gathering with no specific purpose except to chat. Socialization is any gathering of people where they relate to each other, that includes trade among many other situations.

Godbless,
Anwar

Samia

Thanks Anwar for the explanation and for understanding my question peace

Jack

Peace,

Anwar's interpretation makes sense; suppose that's why we're advised to dress nicely for 'the socialization'?

Bigmo

Peace,

Anwar's interpretation makes sense; suppose that's why we're advised to dress nicely for 'the socialization'?

O ye who believe! When the call is proclaimed to prayer on Friday (the Day of Assembly), hasten earnestly to the Remembrance of Allah, and leave off business (and traffic) That is best for you if ye but knew!
And when the Prayer is finished, then may ye disperse through the land, and seek of the Bounty of Allah. and celebrate the Praises of Allah often (and without stint) that ye may prosper.
But when they see some bargain or some amusement, they disperse headlong to it, and leave thee standing. Say "The (blessing) from the Presence of Allah is better than any amusement or bargain! and Allah is the Best to provide (for all needs)."

What is this call? Is this congregation done by the Muslims or the others. Its talking about trade . It seems the call for the congregation is different from the functions of the others.

Is the salat called upon part of the congregation or is the congregation seperate from the salat?

unknownuser

Peace all,

According to my research, the obligatory salaat for muslimeen/mumineen is only two times a day per the Qur'aan salaat of dawn (salaat al-fajr) and salaat of dusk (salaat al-isha).

The time of salaat of dawn is anytime from onset of dawn to before sunrise, and salaat of dusk is from onset of sunset to onset of complete darkness. Please see the following links for further discussion on this topic

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=12200.msg92976#msg92976

http//free-minds.org/articles/quranic/salat2.htm

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=7727.0 (for a detailed discussion on "al-salaat al-wusta&quot

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9110.msg107691#msg107691

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13595.msg115426#msg115426 (onwards until #9)

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=12074.msg114433#msg114433

One can perform "additional salaat" (naafilah) if one likes for extra credit, which is optional

1779 And from the night awake for it additionally (naafilatan) for yourself, perhaps your Lord would grant you to a high rank.

Some comments on the timing of the salaat of the mumineen/muslimeen

TWO EDGES OF THE DAYTIME

11114 And you shall hold the connection/salaat at the two edges (tarafayi) of the daytime, and the near parts (zulafan) of the night. The good deeds take away the bad. This is a reminder to those who remember.

The "zulafan" in 11114 is plural, not singular, meaning "near PARTS of the night".

First 11114 mentions the two edges "TARAFAYI" of the daytime. According to 20130, by the usage of the words "ATRAAF AN-NIHAAR", daytime has 3 or more edges (The word atraaf is plural for three or more edges). Now the question arises that which two edges of the daytime The God is talking about in 11114 ? The God answers that by telling us precisely which two edges of the daytime the ones that are also the near parts of the night, i.e. dawn and dusk.

The qur'aanic daytime is from onset of dawn to onset of complete darkness of the night, and the qur'aanic night is from just after the sunset to just before sunrise. Thus they overlap at dawn and dusk.

Please see the following article for details about qur'aanic daytime and qur'aanic night

http//free-minds.org/articles/science/quranic.htm

One edge of the day which is also the corresponding near part of the night is dawn (dawn is included in the qur'aanic night and is the part of the night near sunrise and is also the first edge of the day). The other edge of the day which is also the corresponding near part of the night is dusk.

This can also be explained as follows

1st edge of the day = dawn = one near part of the night (part of night near the sunrise)

last edge of the day = dusk = other near part of the night (part of night near the sunset)

Hence "near PARTS (plural) of the night" in 11114

The "wa" in Arabic is also used to mean "that is" and can separate two phrases/words referring to the same subject. Thus in 11114 it says "two edges of the daytime "wa"/"that is" near parts of the night", referring to the same time period of dawn and dusk.

If the near parts (plural) of the night is taken to be separate from the two edges of the daytime and not referring to the same time period then there will be two logical problems

Which two edges of the daytime ?
How many near parts of the night (with each near part for a separate salaat) ?

#2 can lead to 2,3,4,5........ salaats during the parts of the night close to sunset and 2,3,4,5........ salaats during the parts of the night close to sunrise, leading to unlimited number of salaats at night.

LI DULOOKISH-SHAMSI ILA GHASAQIL-LAYL

1778 You shall uphold the salaat from the sun's "DULOOK", to darkness of the night, and the Qur'aan at dawn; the Qur'aan at dawn is witnessed.

What is "DULOOK" ? This word is mentioned only one time in the Qur'aan. Its root is DLK, which means "to rub or to massage". "Dulook" can also mean "declination" but it does not mean "declination at noon". The sun can only appear to be "rubbing" when it rubs the horizon at sunrise and at sunset, but when it rubs at sunrise, it is not declining but ascending. The context (177 implies the meaning "the rubbing of the sun at sunset" (the context of the verse suggests that it is at sunset and not at sunrise).

When the sun rubs the horizon at sunset, it is also declining at that time, thus both meanings "rubbing" and "declination" fit.

LI DULOOKI AL-SHAMSI can only be interpreted as the sun's rubbing of the horizon and declination at sunset. With the preposition LI, which means (in this case) just after, the very precise interpretation of "li dulooki al-shamsi" would be when the sun starts rubbing the horizon. So if we take this interpretation, then the first part of the verse would be translated as follows

"Uphold the "salaat"/connection from the rubbing/setting of the sun up to darkness of the night" referring to "twilight".

The Qur'aan at dawn is synonymous with the salaat al-fajr; as one of the most important parts of upholding salaat is oration/reading of the Qur'aan.

Therefore this verse also confirms the same two times of upholding salaat as 2458 and thus 2458 is consistent with 1778.

TWO POINTS

Firstly, if "dulook" is interpreted as "declination at noon", then how come the noon salaat is not mentioned in 2458, where salaat al-fajr and salaat al-3isha are mentioned ?

Secondly AND MORE IMPORTANTLY

Even if this verse is wrongly translated as mentioning decline of sun from noon up to the darkness of the night, still Allah is mentioning ONE TIME PERIOD and referring to ONE SALAAT in that time period because it says "uphold the salaat (singular) from the sun's duluk until darkness of the night" in 1778, and not "uphold the SALAWAAT (plural) .............".

How can someone interpret this one salaat in that one time period as two salaats (noon and 3isha), when clearly that time period is mentioned for singular SALAAT in 1778 ? The false "noon" meaning is PURE CONJECTURE based on excess baggage of the sectarian notion of al-islaam based on the fabricated hearsays falsely attributed to Prophet Muhammad. 1778 refers to one salaat during that one time period of "from the sun's duluk to the darkness of the night", which is salaat al-3isha, and to one salaat at dawn signified by the dawn Reading, and thus the correct translation can only be "from the setting of the sun to darkness of the night".

AL-SALAAT AL-WUSTA

Please go through all the occurrences of the word "WST" in the Qur'aan and see what it consistently means in the Qur'aan. Let me help you do that by quoting the relevant part from the following article

http//free-minds.org/articles/quranic/salat2.htm

Middle (Wusta) Salaat.

Wusta- is the word that is used to mean "middle" in 2238. Let us read and see if this fits throughout The Reading.

The God will not call you to account for what is futile in your oaths, but He will call you to account for your deliberate oaths for expiation, feed ten indigent persons, on a scale of the average/best/balanced (AWSAT) for the food of your families; or clothe them; or give a slave his freedom. If that is beyond your means, fast for three days. That is the expiation for the oaths ye have sworn. But keep to your oaths. Thus doth The God make clear to you His signs, that ye may be grateful.

The God tells us that for expiation, we are to give average type of food like we would give our own families. We are to give a balanced meal, one that contains some nutrition , but not one that we have to spend our life savings on.

"O ye who believe! Give of the GOOD THINGS which ye have earned, and of the fruits of the earth which We have produced for you, and do not even aim at getting anything which is bad, in order that out of it ye may give away something, when ye yourselves would not receive it except with closed eyes. And know that The God is Free of all wants, and worthy of all praise."

Average can also be seen as middle from the above explanation, so lets dig a little further for clarification.

More clarifications-

There are two other clarifying verses that settle this dispute (Remember disputes are to be settled with the messenger, the ever living messenger , The Reading (459))

" But when they saw the garden they said ' we have surely lost our way indeed we are deprived.' Said "AWSATUHUM" 'Did not I say to you, 'Why not glorify The God?' "

So, using our minds that we are responsible for, would we place "middle" or "most balanced" in this verse? Clearly it was the 'most balanced' man, what would be the ?middle? man? The one who suggested glorifying The God was the most balanced because the righteous are those who maintain the balance of all things in life, they keep the proper perspective of the material world and the spiritual world.

O people, we created you from the same male and female, and rendered you distinct peoples and tribes, that you may recognize one another. The best among you in the sight of The GOD is the most righteous. The GOD is Omniscient, Cognizant.

You see this is how The God teaches us the names as He did for Adam (237) and will do for all of His devotees who turn completely to Him.

The shaytaan (deceiver) has been exposed, but there is more falsehood that needs its brains knocked out by the truth.

"Thus we have made you an "ummatan WASATAN", that you might be witnesses over the nations and the messenger a witness over yourselves;..."

Has The God made the believers a 'middle group' or has He made the believers a BALANCED group? The Most Merciful has not left it up for us to guess. He has clarified it for us.

"Ye are the MOST BALANCED/BEST of people (khayra ummatan) evolved for mankind. Enjoining what is right, forbidding what is wrong, and believe in The God..."

Salaat is a function which will make you a balanced human being, one who has not gotten lost in the material illusion and remembers that He/She is only here for a test.

Know that this worldly life is no more than play and games, and boasting among you, and hoarding of money and children. It is like abundant rain that produces plants and pleases the disbelievers. But then the plants turn into useless hay, and are blown away by the wind. In the Hereafter there is either severe retribution, or forgiveness from GOD and approval. This worldly life is no more than a temporary illusion.

Finally, please ponder my following questions

2238 is not referring to a particular salaat by the name of "middle" salaat but is referring to the "best/balanced" salaat. If it is the "middle" salaat, then

DID ALLAH FORGET TO TELL WHICH SALAAT IS THE FIRST SALAAT ?
HOW DO YOU DETERMINE WHICH ONE IS MIDDLE ?
WHICH SALAAT IS ALLAH REFERRING TO AS MIDDLE ?
DID ALLAH FORGET TO TELL US THAT ?
Why is "salaat of noon" or "salaat of dusk" the middle salaat ? Did Allah say that "fajr" is the FIRST salaat ?
If Allah has not given us a starting point as to which is the first salaat then how can we determine the "middle" salaat ? I can arbitrarily say that "3isha" salaat is the first salat, that would make "fajr" as the "middle" one then, if there are 3 salaats !
If there was indeed a middle salaat then how come The God forgot to mention it in 2458 ?

2458 O you who believe, let those who are committed to you by oath, and those who have not yet attained puberty, request your permission regarding three times before salaat/connection of dawn, and when you put off your attire from the noon time, and after salat/connection of dusk. These are three private times for you. Other than these times, it is not wrong for you or them to intermingle with one another. God thus clarifies the revelations for you. And God is Knowledgeable, Wise.

Why did He not mention "salaat of noon" or "salaat of darkness of night" here ?

Let us consider 2238

2238 Maintain the SALAWAAT/connections, and the WUSTA SALAAT/connection; and stand dutiful for God.

Notice The God asking us to maintain SALAWAAT/connectionS (plural), and then immediately adds WUSTA SALAAT. Now if "wusta salaat" means "middle" and it is a separate salaat, then hasn't The God already mentioned ALL SALAATS just before it and wouldn't that include "middle" salaat as well ? Saying SALAWAT/ConnectionS and then saying the name of another salaat would be redundant, won't it ?

Let me give an example. Suppose I tell a medical student

Read your medical books and the internal medicine book.

Am I not being redundant because "medical books" already includes "internal medicine book" ?

Suppose I tell you

Bring your dressES and the red dress.

Isn't the red dress already included in "dressES" and would it not then be redundant to add it after I already said "dressES" ?

The only way it will make sense is if "wusta salaat" is not the name of a separate salaat but is a description of what all our salaats should be like, i.e. the best/balanced salaat, (remember "wa" can mean "that is" and separate a descriptive attribute of a subject from the previously mentioned subject in Arabic) and then this usage will also be consistent with how the words derived from "WST" are used elsewhere in the Qur'aan.

You see, "wusta" meaning "middle" in 2238 does not make any sense, and leads to conjecturing as to which salaat is first and which is "middle" and would also cause a logical redundancy in 2238. It can only mean "best/balanced" salaat, meaning that ALL our salaats should be that way.

The following is quoted from one of the links I gave, in which I raised some logical questions against "wusta" meaning middle in 2238

"In my understanding there is no such thing as the "middle" salaat in al-qur'aan. That is the wrong translation of "al-salaat al-wusta" which means "the best/balanced/moderate salaat" in the context of 2238 and al-qur'aan as a whole. According to 2238 Allah wants us to uphold all our salaats in the best/balanced/moderate manner.

Firstly, which salaat would be the "middle" salaat ? If there are 3 salaats x, y and z then depending on which one is the first or initial salaat would determine the middle salaat. For example if x is the first or initial salaat then y would be the middle salaat, but if y is the first salaat then z would be the middle one, and if z is the first salaat then x would be the middle one.

Allah never leaves something vague as al-qur'aan is clear and detailed. I challenge anyone to give qur'aanic evidence as to which salaat is CLEARLY the first salaat and which salaat is CLEARLY the "middle" salaat according to al-qur'aan. If the middle salaat is so important as to be mentioned separately in 2238 then Allah should have clearly told us which salaat He is talking about as the middle salaat and not leave it unclear and up to guess work.

Secondly, in 2238 when it says protect the salaats in the beginning of the verse, that logically includes ALL salaats and then it is redundant to say AND the middle salaat, if the middle salaat is a separate salaat, because the word salaats in the beginning of the verse automatically includes the middle salaat as well IF THERE IS INDEED A MIDDLE SALAAT. That logically proves that by "al-salaat al-wusta" Allah does not mean a separate middle salaat but is giving a descriptive property of how ALL our salats should be, i.e. the best/balanced/moderate salaat, meaning that all our salaats should be upheld in the best/balanced/moderate manner.

Thirdly, if one studies the usage of all the words derived from the root WST in al-qur'aan one finds that the meaning "middle" does not fit in any of those usages but the meaning best/balanced/moderate fits in those occurrences. Thus in 2238 "wusta" cannot mean middle because of the logical contradiction presented in the second paragraph above, and can only mean "best/balanced/moderate" as per context of that verse and the usage of similar words throughout al-qur'aan.

Please go through the following links again very carefully, with concentration

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=7727.0 (for a detailed discussion on "al-salaat al-wusta&quot

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9110.msg107691#msg107691

One important point to consider is that "salaat of dawn" and "salaat of dusk" are mentioned in al-qur'aan without the AL before the salaat

SALAAT AL-FAJR (245

SALAAT AL-3ISHA (245

meaning "salaat OF dawn" and "salaat OF dusk".

However the wusta salaat is mentioned with the AL before the salaat

AL-SALAAT AL-WUSTA (223

In this phrase, there is "AL" before BOTH "salaat" and "wusta", and in such a construction, "wusta" will be the adjective of "salaat", meaning "wusta salaat" (wusta used as adjective) and not "salaat OF wusta", which is one point in favor of it not being the name/time of a salaat.

YAWM AL-JUM3AH

My understanding of "yawm al-jum3ati" according to al-qur'aan is as follows

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=12991.msg106788#msg106788

The word "yaum" in al-qur'aan refers to a time period and not necessarily a 24 hour day.

In my understanding, there is no such thing as the Friday salaat according to al-qur'aan. There is no basis of a seven day week from al-qur'aan. The proper name of the day Jum'ah was hijacked from the common noun "al-jum'ah" from 629 meaning "the assembly or gathering" and "yaum al-jum'ah" in 629 means "time of the assembly/gathering". Now Allah never leaves anything vague/unclear in al-qur'aan. Which time is the time of the assembly/gathering according to al-qur'aan then ? If we look closely we find that the only time we are called to gather/assemble in this world in al-qur'aan is for hajj

2227 And call out to the people with the hajj, they will come to you walking and on every transport, they will come from every deep enclosure.

In my understanding the "yaum al-jum'ah" in 629 refers to this time when the people are gathered for hajj and 629 refers to the call to the salat at this particular assembly/gathering for hajj and then the command to hasten towards remembring Allah and CEASE ALL SELLING makes total sense.

I would like to quote a relevant excerpt from brother Ayman's article "How did it come to this? (part 1)

"Another interesting common thread that runs through several of those idols is that they all had association with Friday. For example, Ashtoreth is connected to Friday. So is Venus, where the Romans named Friday after her as "dies veneris". The very name Friday is derived from the Norse goddess, Frigga. When the Germanic tribes invaded England they imposed their goddess upon the day meant to honor Venus. The day was called Frigedaeg, which gradually became "Friday". I don't think that it is a coincidence that Friday also became the "holy day" for sectarians who venerate Allat/Aphrodite and her black cube and Black Stone." - Ayman

May The God guide us all to the truth.

progod

Peace,

I don't see the need to look for a specific day or time of gathering/socialization. A time of gathering (yawmul-jumu&at) like al-ibil in 8817 i.e Camels not the (specific) camels or al-malaku in 8922, here meaning angels or (all) the angels and not just 'the (specific) angel' includes every time of jumu&at and jumu&at is any socialization or gathering of people.
So it is not just hajj, although it includes hajj. It is when we are in our houses chatting, talking on the phone, at the mall, in a meeting, at a fair or at any event that has to do with human socialization of some sort.

Idhaa noodia in this context is literally 'whenever/if called, invited or summoned.' So whenever we are invited, called or summoned to prayer, min (which means during or away from) during an event or pulling us away from an event we are to go and pray and leave behind any type of trade as well (as we all know people are overly concerned about money and their livelihood). Prayer is to come first. So honestly we need, when God has called us to pray or when others remind us, to pray and then come back to what we were doing. The intasharoo of 6210 is obviously saying go about the land as you would normally after praying and is a collective commmand for all those who would stop what they are doing to have a word and think on our Lord.

There is no assumed specific gathering being addressed in these passages.

Godbless,
Anwar

unknownuser

Peace brother Anwar,

Thank you for the clarification. You have a point and I need to revise my understanding accordingly. You are right, it is not AL-YAWM Al-JUM3ATI (THE time of gathering/assembly) but YAWM AL-JUM3ATI (time of gathering).

progod

Peace,

AL AL constructions can be collective as well, however al-yawmul-jumu&ati makes no sense grammatically. Yawm is masculine and the second word needs to describe the first. The second word is feminine so that doesn't work. It has to be changed to masculine. You do this by dropping the ta marbootah and adding a y. Like someone who is from makkatu is a makkee, Someone who is from a university (jaami&atun) is a jaami&ee, someone who follows the sunnah (or sunnatun) is a sunni or shiah (or shiatun) shi'ee.

Godbless,
Anwar

unknownuser

Peace Anwar,

Thank you for the Arabic lesson. So if it was referring to a specific day, would it then be "al-yawm al-jum3" or "al-yawm al-jum3ee" ? The second question is that is it grammatically possible for the phrase "yawm al-jum3ati" to refer to a specific day ?

progod

Peace,

In Arabic it is not as clear as that. Definite in Arabic can refer to a definite object, day etc. or it can refer to a collective.
A classical example of this is 8922's use of Al-malaku to mean all angels and not 'the angel' as one of the examples I pointed out before.

In Classical Arabic some nouns have collectives that are different than the regular noun. For instance al-Arabee for 'the Arab man/thing/language' and Al-Arabu for Arabs in general. There are other words that have a specific word for the collective, but most will just use the definite singular or plural. If we take the word dog as an example, in order to say 'Dogs' in general you either say al-kalbu (literally 'the dog&#039 or al-kilaabu (literally 'the dogs&#039.

So if you are looking for a way to say 'the gathering day' exclusively like we do in English to mean a specific gathering day and nothing else, that does not exist in most cases in Arabic. When you say 'the gathering day' in Arabic you can be talking about a specific gathering day OR gathering days in general. Do you understand what I mean?

So in a summary

Al-yawmu Al-jum&ati/Al-jum&atu = GRAMMATICALLY WRONG.

Al-yawmu Al-jum&eeyu/Al-jum&ee= GRAMMATICALLY CORRECT. However this can refer to a specific gathering day or all gathering days.

yawmul-jum&ati= is based on the meaning of al-jum&atu because literally this construction is 'The gathering's day'. Since al-jumu&ati can mean the gathering or all gathering, yawmul-jum&ati can also refer to a specific day or all days/times of gathering.

So, is there a way to refer to a specific gathering exclusively without POSSIBLY (even if not probably) referring to the general, collective concept of that gathering? No. It can be either or, and the context is what dictates the understanding.

Since the understanding 'times of gathering' can include all times of gathering, including Hajj, why limit the more universal message of going to pray when called to pray despite social gatherings only to Hajj? It is obvious that this also includes Hajj. It is also obvious that human beings have and also will participate in more social gatherings than just the Hajj, and that our commemoration and remembrance of God through prayer when he tells us to pray is always important despite any social gathering in which we may find ourselves, Hajj or whatever else.

Godbless,
Anwar

Wakas

Thanks for that Anwar. It is a shame that the theoretical possibilites of the Arabic are rarely, if ever, commented upon in translations. This is only one of the many reasons why I dislike translations. Almost all are of an outdated approach... as they are more concerned with making new chains, rather than breaking them.

In any case, would you care to clarify the grammar of 597 for us on either of the following threads
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9837.0
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=15673

unknownuser

Peace Anwar,

Thank you for the comprehensive reply; it helps a lot. Looking forward to your grammatical understanding of 597 in the appropriate thread, as inquired by Wakas. May God bless you for your efforts.

Ashraf

( ) "prayers" indicates that they are more than two

( ) "The Middle" indicates that they must be an odd number

peace

As God never run out of words, He will definitely put the word "As-Solatain" ! , if there is only two prayer time..agree with you Stefan. The only thing still curious to me is that prayer time No. 2 and No. 3 according to your deduction, are quite closed to each other, which might be cumbersome..feedbacks welcome..

Ashraf

isha starts from sunset. When it ends varies between scholars, but they agree on when it starts. I would say it ends with darkness (ghasaqul lail).

Peace All,

Have you ever consider the following sentence shall refers to ONLY ONE subject matter respectively

?Dulu kis shams ila ghasaqil lail? (sun?s decline till the darkness of the night) - One range of time
?Faghsilu?.wa aidiyakum ila al-marafiq? (Wash your hand till your elbows) - Hand washing range
?Famsahu?.wa arjulakum ila al-ka?bain? (Wipe your feet till your ankles) - Feet wiping range

Again my question to Stefan...Is that normal to break item No. 1 into 2 subject matter, since you are refering to 2 prayer time in this particular sentence ? Is there any instances of usage in similarity in other verses to support your conclusion...but I certainly agree that total prayer timing shall not be 2 (It was not "Solatain" (2), instead it was "Salawat" (plural)

Kind regards,
Ashraf

Samia

Peace All,

Have you ever consider the following sentence shall refers to ONLY ONE subject matter respectively

?Dulu kis shams ila ghasaqil lail? (sun?s decline till the darkness of the night) - One range of time
?Faghsilu?.wa aidiyakum ila al-marafiq? (Wash your hand till your elbows) - Hand washing range
?Famsahu?.wa arjulakum ila al-ka?bain? (Wipe your feet till your ankles) - Feet wiping range

Again my question to Stefan...Is that normal to break item No. 1 into 2 subject matter, since you are refering to 2 prayer time in this particular sentence ? Is there any instances of usage in similarity in other verses to support your conclusion...but I certainly agree that total prayer timing shall not be 2 (It was not "Solatain" (2), instead it was "Salawat" (plural)

Salaam Ashraf

Very good analysis for "ila"...but you still can't see it two times for salaat!
I think you imagine God talking about our salaats per day, not about ALL of them in our lifetime.
Kind regards,
Ashraf

Ashraf

I think you imagine God talking about our salaats per day, not about ALL of them in our lifetime.

Ok noted...let me digest it for a while...by the way, is there any similar instances ?

jonny_k

Peace "tanveer",
I noticed a problem with your claim of redundancy in "..assalawaat WA assalaatul wusata..." where the latter cannot be a part of the former. However this is not a valid claim since the Quran often uses redundancy to make an issue look more important/significant. Eg is the famous phrase "kitaab WAL hikmah" where clearly the latter is part of the former. Or "atee ullah WA arrasool" again only clarifies that GOD is to be obeyed through the Words which He sends THROUGH his messenger. The phrase couldve just been "atee ullah" but GOD wanted to clarify it further since Hes communicating through a messenger. So this argument needs to be dropped otherwise the sectarians could use it against us at some stage. GOD Bless!

stefan_rosty

Peace everyone,

Please read the following

Ya ayyuha allatheena amanooliyasta/thinkumu allatheena malakat aymanukumwaallatheena lam yablughoo alhuluma minkumthalatha marratin min qabli salatialfajri waheena tadaAAoona thiyabakum mina alththaheeratiwamin baAAdi salati alAAisha-i thalathuAAawratin lakum laysa AAalaykum wala AAalayhim junahunbaAAdahunna tawwafoona AAalaykum baAAdukumAAala baAAdin kathalika yubayyinu Allahulakumu al-ayati waAllahu AAaleemun hakeemun

Literal You, you those who believed, those who your rights (hands) owned/possessed (i.e. care-givers under contract), and those who did not reach the puberty/sexual maturity from you should ask for your permission three times, from before the dawn's prayers, and when you put your clothes/garments (on) from the noon/midday, and from after the evening/first darkness prayers, three shameful genital parts (protective times are) for you, an offense/sin is not on you, and nor on them after them (the three times) circling/walking around on you, some of you to some, as/like that God clarifies/shows/explains for you the verses/evidences , and God (is) knowledgeable, wise/judicious. 2458

The Chronological Order of Revelation 102

Sura Name An-Nur

Number of Verses 64

Location of Revelation Medina

Traditional Order 24

This verse clearly identifies two prayer times, mentioned for the first time by name al fajr (the sunrise) and al aishaa (the night), the 2-Salat group has taken it to mean that there are no other prayer times. However, in its context, this verse is merely organizing the day for believers and has chosen the fajr (sunrise) and aishaa (night) as the start and end points of the working day. The fact that no other times were mentioned (aside from noon whereby the believers change their clothes) does not mean that there are no other times for prayer.

Ya ayyuha allatheena amanooitha noodiya lilssalati min yawmialjumuAAati faisAAaw ila thikri Allahiwatharoo albayAAa thalikum khayrun lakum in kuntumtaAAlamoona
Fa-itha qudiyati alssalatufaintashiroo fee al-ardi waibtaghoo min fadliAllahi waothkuroo Allaha katheeranlaAAallakum tuflihoona

Literal You, you those who believed, if (it) was called to the prayers from the Friday's/gathering's day/time, so hasten/move quickly to God's reminder/mention, and leave the selling/trading, that (is) best for you, if you were knowing
So if the prayers were accomplished/ended , so spread/spread out in the Earth/land , and ask/wish/desire from God's grace/favour/blessing, and mention/remember/praise/ glorify God much, maybe/perhaps you succeed/win.. 629-10

The Chronological Order of Revelation 110

Sura Name Al-Jumua

Number of Verses 11

Location of Revelation Medina

Traditional Order 62

This verse orders believers to come to prayer upon the calling of Prophet Mohamed on the day of gathering, falsely taken to mean on Friday as observed by most of the Islamic world . If indeed there are only two times for prayer, fajr (sunst) and aishaa (night), and as clearly stated in the above verse that people shall work only after fajr (sunrise ) and before aishaa (night), then how then does this verse order Muslims to abandon work and come to prayer?

This entails that there must be a third time for prayer (salat al wusta) that falls at the time of work, which will logically entail that Muslims should abandon their work and come to prayer. When then is this third time for prayer? Some have suggested that it is in the daytime as this is when people work. However, the previous verse clearly suggests that work will go on until aishaa (night) and so towards sunset, work will still be operating.

Another proof that this prayer does not have to fall in daytime is that even before any mention of this communal call for prayer, God has spoken of those who are not distracted from prayer by work (2437)

Rijalun la tulheehim tijaratunwala bayAAun AAan thikri Allahi wa-iqamialssalati wa-eeta-i alzzakatiyakhafoona yawman tataqallabu feehi alquloobu waal-absaru

Literal Men commercial trade and nor selling/trading does not distract/divert them from mentioning/remembering God, and keeping up the prayers and giving/bringing the charity/purification , they fear a day/time the hearts/minds and the eye sight/knowledge turns around in it. 2437

The Chronological Order of Revelation 102

Sura Name An-Nur

Number of Verses 64

Location of Revelation Medina

Traditional Order 24

This verse speaks of how generally, some people, not even work will distract them from their praying duties. Interestingly, the prayer times mentioned till now do not fall at the times of work, yet what is intended is that work might consume some people and distract them from their duties towards God.

Peace peace

stefan_rosty

Peace all,

According to my research, the obligatory salaat for muslimeen/mumineen is only two times a day per the Qur'aan salaat of dawn (salaat al-fajr) and salaat of dusk (salaat al-isha).

The time of salaat of dawn is anytime from onset of dawn to before sunrise, and salaat of dusk is from onset of sunset to onset of complete darkness. Please see the following links for further discussion on this topic

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=12200.msg92976#msg92976

http//free-minds.org/articles/quranic/salat2.htm

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=7727.0 (for a detailed discussion on "al-salaat al-wusta&quot

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9110.msg107691#msg107691

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13595.msg115426#msg115426 (onwards until #9)

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=12074.msg114433#msg114433

One can perform "additional salaat" (naafilah) if one likes for extra credit, which is optional

1779 And from the night awake for it additionally (naafilatan) for yourself, perhaps your Lord would grant you to a high rank.

Some comments on the timing of the salaat of the mumineen/muslimeen

TWO EDGES OF THE DAYTIME

11114 And you shall hold the connection/salaat at the two edges (tarafayi) of the daytime, and the near parts (zulafan) of the night. The good deeds take away the bad. This is a reminder to those who remember.

The "zulafan" in 11114 is plural, not singular, meaning "near PARTS of the night".

ZLF * plural * ZoLaF * ZaLFat

The word (&#1577 "AL ZULFA" was used to describe the early hours of the darkness ( ), and the edge of the day is before the darkness.

http//ar.wiktionary.org/

Waaqimi alssalata tarafayialnnahari wazulafan mina allayli inna alhasanatiyuthhibna alssayyi-ati thalika thikralilththakireena

Literal And keep up the prayers to (the) ends/edges (of) the daytime and (to) parts from the night ; that the goodnesses wipe off/eliminate the sins/crimes, that (is) a remembrance/reminder to the praising/glorifying. 11114

The Chronological Order of Revelation 52

Sura Name Hud

Number of Verses 123

Location of Revelation Mecca

Traditional Order 11

This verse clearly outlines three prayer times the two ends of the daytime and the beginning of the night. The word "tarafay " or edges indicates that there are two times and then the "and " indicates that there is a third prayer time. This I find contradicts the two-time prayer theory because it clearly states that there is a third time for prayer, as indicated by the "and ". Their claim is the the later edge of the night is the one approaching the night. But then what is the "and " doing in that phrase? Logically, linguistically speaking, the "and " suggests that there is another prayer time aside from the two edges of the daytime.