Can we finally answer the question of timing of salaat and sawm?

ignoramus

And whosoever turns away from the remembrance of the Almighty, We appoint a devil to be his constant companion. 4336

(&#1615 is defined "turns away because of his poor eye sight"
( * * { { * * )
Blind at night ( * * )

i think that we have to pray salat al esha right after the total darkness, during the early part of the night ( &nbsp....

-esha is in the darkness ( . .)

al wusta prayer right after the second edge of the day (sunset)
-( )

or ( ) from the dipping of the sun (sunset) till the darkness of the night (esha)

Thou shall hold the contact-method until the dipping of the sun; until the darkness of the night; and the Quran at dawn, the Quran at dawn has been witnessed.1778

al fajr prayer right after the first edge of the day (sunrise).

peace

salam

are you saying salat al wusta lasts between the beginning of sunset until darkness and salat al isha follows immediately, there being no gap in between?

i do not quite get .

salam

ayman

Peace Stefan,

And whosoever turns away from the remembrance of the Almighty, We appoint a devil to be his constant companion. 4336

(&#1615 is defined "turns away because of his poor eye sight"
( * * { { * * )
Blind at night ( * * )
i think that we have to pray salat al esha right after the total darkness, during the early part of the night ( &nbsp....
-esha is in the darkness ( . .)

022.061
YUSUFALI That is because Allah merges night into day, and He merges day into night, and verily it is Allah Who hears and sees (all things).
PICKTHAL That is because Allah maketh the night to pass into the day and maketh the day to pass into the night, and because Allah is Hearer, Seer.
SHAKIR That is because Allah causes the night to enter into the day and causes the day to enter into the night, and because Allah is Hearing, Seeing.
KHALIFA It is a fact that GOD merges the night into the day, and merges the day into the night, and that GOD is Hearer, Seer.

The only way that "night" can be merged into daylight and daylight can be merged into "night" is if "night" starts at sunset and ends after daybreak. So what we call in Arabic "layl" is actually equivalent to what is in English "twilight-night-twilight".

This is why when the god wants to point out the dark part of the "layl", he uses the term "ghasak al-layl" (the dark part of the "twilight-night-twilight", i.e. the middle part that we call in English "night&quot

Persist in the learning connection at the rubbing of the sun (i.e. at sunset) until the dark part of the "twilight-night-twilight" and the intense reading at daybreak, indeed the intense reading at daybreak is witnessed.

al wusta prayer right after the second edge of the day (sunset)
-( )
or ( ) from the dipping of the sun (sunset) till the darkness of the night (esha)

Thou shall hold the contact-method until the dipping of the sun; until the darkness of the night; and the Quran at dawn, the Quran at dawn has been witnessed.1778
al fajr prayer right after the first edge of the day (sunrise).

The translation that you provided is not correct. It doesn't make sense to say "until the dipping of the sun; until the darkness of the night". I think that what you mean is "from the dipping of the sun; until the darkness of the night". As explained above, this is the time in the great reading decribed as "'isha". If you look at all the occurences of the word "wusta" and its derivatives, you will see that it means "balanced". So this is an attribute that we should maintain, not an additional timing.

As a side note, you really ought to translate the word "quran" in 1778. The expression "the Quran at dawn" doesn't make any sense.

Peace,

Ayman

stefan_rosty

salam

are you saying salat al wusta lasts between the beginning of sunset until darkness and salat al isha follows immediately, there being no gap in between?

i do not quite get .

salam

yes exactly, from the moment that you can not see the sun until the moment when you can not see the light.

ignoramus

yes exactly, from the moment that you can not see the sun until the moment when you can not see the light.

salam

why do you think they are two seperate salawat, if the two are continuous?

something is not making sense for me.

salam

stefan_rosty

i think that the period in which ( &#1609occurs,
between sunset and the total darkness of the night, which is a short period, thats why it is mentioned exclusively in

Maintain the prayers and the Mid-prayer, and stand obedient to God.2238

peace

stefan_rosty

salam

why do you think they are two seperate salawat, if the two are continuous?

something is not making sense for me.

salam

they are not continuous, the middle prayers is not in the darkness while el esha is

ignoramus

... If you look at all the occurences of the word "wusta" and its derivatives, you will see that it means "balanced". So this is an attribute that we should maintain, not an additional timing ...

salam

please excuse my ignorance.

is used as a superlative here?

salam

ayman

Peace Ignoramus,

please excuse my ignorance.
is used as a superlative here?

No need to apologize for a very knowledgeable and clarifying question. Indeed, it is a superlative so it would mean "most balanced". Thank you for pointing this out.

Peace,

Ayman

ignoramus

salam

would the forum managers consider merging this thread and "Re Can we finally answer the Salaat question collectively?" < http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=14793.0 > please?

i am suffering from perpetual vertigo skipping from so many related threads with so many informative posts.

thank you!

salam

Allen

Peace Ignoramus,

No need to apologize for a very knowledgeable and clarifying question. Indeed, it is a superlative so it would mean "most balanced". Thank you for pointing this out.

Peace,

Ayman

English - Arabic
balanced adjective keeping or showing a balance
, , ,

balanced noun steadiness of mind; sanity
, ,

amount (of money) still owed after some payment has been made; remainder of something after part has already been used , taken , etc
,

even distribution of weight or amount; equivalence between two opposites; difference between two columns of an account , money received and money spent
,

instrument used for weighing , with a central pivot , a beam and two scales or pans
, ,

balanced verb put or be in a state of balance; compare the value of something with that of another; give equal importance to different parts of something
, , ( )

http//dictionary.sakhr.com/idrisidic_2MM.asp?Lang=E-A&Sub=balanced

Arabic - English

place in the center(of)

place in the center(of) , choose or appoint as mediator , ask to act as intermediary

,
surroundings , milieu , medium , ecology , environment
,
mediocre , average , run-of-the-mill , moderate , average , temperate , commonplace , normal , center , ordinary , general

flank , waist
,
ratio , average , averaging , on the average
,
center

be in the middle(of) , be in the center(of)

,
middle , center

http//dictionary.sakhr.com/idrisidic_2MM.asp?Lang=E-A&Sub=%e6%d3%d8

stefan_rosty

wusta is middle

stefan_rosty

( * * ) tawseet to make a thing in the middle ( )

peace peace

stefan_rosty

it is balanced because it is in the middle, but the the middle prayer is between the fajr prayer and the esha

in the middle

ignoramus

salam

what is the purpose/meaning of the wa between al salawati and al salatilwusta in 2238
( ) if wusta here is (most) balanced/middle/best?

salam

Bigmo

Peace all.

Bigmo, wonderful attachment.

In reading the posts and threads along these pages I see a very common trend. Individuals who do not follow the scriptures, reinterpreting scriptural commands, to observe rituals from scripture. Its a never ending chase, bceause without implementing all of the scriptures, we can not know how to implement the rituals we have.
Muslims very frequently look to their own devices (personal interpretation, hadiyth) instead of following what the Qur'aan says. Yes, Muslims who seek to answer "the salat question" will continue endlessly to search for it in the light of Qur'aan or invent their own rituals. The reality is THE QUR'AAN NOWHERE EXPLAINS THE SALAAT RITUAL, BECAUSE IT NOWHERE EXPLAINS THE SALAAT RITUAL!
We have allowed the adversary Shaytaan to separate us from the Umm Ul Kitaab, the mother book, by postulating that all of the torahs in the world and all the gospels in the world are tampered with. Most Muslims don't even know that Al Injiyl is not the four gospels that we have today. Matthew (written 65 a.d), Mark (written 41 a.d.), Luke (written 58 a.d.), and John (written 98 a.d.) were all atleast ten years after Rabboni Yashua bar Miriam/Issa ibn Maryam "died" and therefore could not be the Injiyl which is documented according to the Qur'aan. No the true remnants that we have from Al Injiyl are the Quelle document (commonly known as the Gospel of Q).
Allah Subhanuhu Wa Ta'Alla commands the prophet Mustafa Muhammad Al Amin to (Qura 1094)

Fa'in Kunta F Shakkin Mimm 'Anzaln 'Ilayka Fs'ali Al-Ladhna Yaqra'na Al-Kitba Min Qablika

"So if you are questioning as to what we sent down to you, then ask those WHO READ THE SCRIPTURE FROM BEFORE YOU.."

The Qur'aan is the Bayyinah wa Furqaan that clears up the misinterpretation of the scriptures. It is through the light of Al Quraan that we are better to (for example) understand "documentary hypothesis". The claims that the Jews corrupted the Torah is not accurate. A sounder historical analyzation of the facts would demonstrate the Jews had multiple Torahs (one for the Kingdom of Israel ("E" text)/one for the Nation of Judea ("J" text)/The true torah kept sacred by the Mus***e priests in Shiloh ("P" text)/and the reformist Torah written by Hilkiah under Hezekiah).
We have the true torah of Moses and Aaron, called the P text(revealed from 1512-1473 bce), the Zubuwr (book of Psalms revealed 1037 bce), the Injiyl (the Q gospel revealed 30 ad to Jesus at the age of 36), and the Quraan (revealed between 610-631 ad).
It is throught the light of the scriptures that we come to truly understand exactly what 'millatul ibrahim' is. We come to understand that the covenant of prophecy was given to the seed of Abraham after the flood through the promise made to him from Allah ta'Ala (Genesis 68-9;121-3, 7; 1314-18; 154, 5, 13-18; 171-8; 1817-19; 2215-18; Qur 2124-140; Qur 570). We come to see that with the exit of Isa ibn Maryam/Yashua bar Maryam Al Masih/Ha Meshiakh was the covenant of prophecy passed to Muhammad (John 1426, Deut 18, John 120) and the gate opened to the gentiles (Qur 381; Isa 426,11) through the new Covenant (al Islaam).
We also come to the understanding that three time daily prayer was instituted as a supplement to the three daily servcies of the mosaic tabernacle/temple of solomon(Mincha, Maariv, Shakharit) psalms 557; dan 610. That the attitude of prayer ordinarily was standing (1 Sam. 1 26; Neh. 9 2, 4; Matt. 6 5; Luke 18 11, 13); also kneeling (1 Kgs. 8 54; Dan. 6 10; Ezra 9 5); or prostrate (Josh. 7 6; Neh. 8 6). Jesus himself also kept this attitude, often he knelt (Luke 22 41), fell on his face (Matt. 26 39), fell on the ground (Mark 14 35). It is noteworthy that Stephen (Acts 7 60), Peter (Acts 9 40), Paul (Acts 20 36; Acts 21 5), and the Christians generally (Acts 21 5) knelt to pray. That the orginal prayer structure was free-form, merely just the honest prayers of the petitioner. Later Isa/Yashua/Jesus codified the structure of prayer (Luke 111-3). Unfortunately due to the later gentile perversion of the terminology for Allah ta'Ala (Abba, Ab, Pater), the Quran redefined the prayer structure (Qur 1988-92; 1123) to rid the service established by Abraham (Genesis 17, 1927) of the pagan accretions and we were given Al Fatihah ti use in it's stead (Qur 1; 1587)

In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful
All praise belongs to God, Lord of the Universe,
the Beneficent, the Merciful
and Master of the Day of Judgment.
(Lord), You alone We do worship and from You alone we do seek assistance
(Lord), guide us to the right path,
the path of those to whom You have granted blessings, those who are neither subject to Your anger nor have gone astray.

Its only through wedding the scriptures together (Qur 2136, 4136; 1094; 548,65-69) that we can understand their true message.

Peace to all
Latif Abdullah

And how can the prophet ask the people who read the scriptures before him if they never existed and these scriptures no longer existed when he became a prophet?

You got it wrong in my view.

stefan_rosty

salam

what is the purpose/meaning of the wa between al salawati and al salatilwusta in 2238
( ) if wusta here is (most) balanced/middle/best?

salam

we have three salat ( ) defined in the Quran.

salat al fajr ( &#1616 verse 2458
al salat al wusta ( &#1609 verse 2238
Salat al esha ( &#1569 verse 2458

http//www.openburhan.net/ob.php?sid=24&vid=58
http//www.openburhan.net/ob.php?sid=2&vid=238

their timings are ( ) at both edges of the day, and the near part of the night. 11114

http//www.openburhan.net/ob.php?sid=11&vid=114

both edges

1-sunrise (1st edge of the day) or fajr
2-sunset (2nd edge of the day) or maghrib

and

3-early hours of the night (the near part of the night) ( ) or esha

i think that the period in which ( &#1609occurs,between sunset and the total darkness of the night, which is a short period, thats why it is mentioned exclusively in

Maintain the prayers and the Middle prayer, and stand obedient to God.2238

http//www.openburhan.net/ob.php?sid=2&vid=238

so that you don't miss it out

( ) "prayers" indicates that they are more than two

( ) "The Middle" indicates that they must be an odd number

peace

Bigmo

we have three salat defined in the Quran.

salat al fajr ( &#1616 verse 2458
al salat al wusta ( &#1609 verse 2238
Salat al esha ( &#1569 verse 2458

their timings are ( ) at both edges of the day, and the near part of the night. 11114

http//www.openburhan.net/ob.php?sid=11&vid=114

1-sunrise (1st edge of the day) or fajr
2-sunset (2nd edge of the day) or maghrib
3-early hours of the night (the near part of the night) ( ) or esha

i think that the period in which ( &#1609occurs,between sunset and the total darkness of the night, which is a short period, thats why it is mentioned exclusively in

Maintain the prayers and the Middle prayer, and stand obedient to God.2238

http//www.openburhan.net/ob.php?sid=2&vid=238

so that you don't miss it out

peace

Fajr and Ishar are already mentioned.

Two edges of the day is the time before and after them. Fajr and Isha. The middle is the magrib, between the decline of the sun and darkness(isha). Thats what the koran seems to be saying.

There are others who said the the two ends are zuhr and asr. However "nahar" means daylight which includes morning so this is still fuzzy.

The middle prayers was emphasized because its short, between sunset(dulook) and darkness(ghasaq), about 45 minutes.

Then there is friday prayers which has to be in daytime when people trade.

Whats interesting is the loud prayers and silent prayers. Both the zuhr and asr silent. But the friday is loud. Fajr, maghrib and isha, and friday, the first two rika'at are all loud and in agreement with timings of Koran. Since there is nothing about praying silent in the Koran.

However there is never going to be agreement about this.

stefan_rosty

Fajr and Ishar are already mentioned.

Two edges of the day is the time before and after them. Fajr and Isha. The middle is the magrib, between the decline of the sun and darkness(isha). Thats what the koran seems to be saying.

There are others who said the the two ends are zuhr and asr. However "nahar" means daylight which includes morning so this is still fuzzy.

The middle prayers was emphasized because its short, between sunset(dulook) and darkness(ghasaq), about 45 minutes.

Then there is friday prayers which has to be in daytime when people trade.

Whats interesting is the loud prayers and silent prayers. Both the zuhr and asr silent. But the friday is loud. Fajr, maghrib and isha, and friday, the first two rika'at are all loud and in agreement with timings of Koran. Since there is nothing about praying silent in the Koran.

However there is never going to be agreement about this.

Fajr and Wusta are Two edges of the day

and Esha is early hours of the night (the near part of the night) ( )

fajr , maghrib and esha .

the non-silent ones.

O you who believe, when the Prayer is called to at a time of gathering, then you shall hasten towards the remembrance of God, and cease all selling. This is better for you, if you only knew. 629

Salat Jumu?ah ( &#1616 is not given in this form and no timing mentioned.
it could be any of the prayers (salawat) mentioned in the quran on a busy friday
and its not a daily prayer

http//www.openburhan.net/ob.php?sid=62&vid=9

peace

Samia

O you who believe, when the Prayer is called to at a time of gathering, then you shall hasten towards the remembrance of God, and cease all selling. This is better for you, if you only knew. 629

Salat Jumu?ah ( &#1616 is not given in this form and no timing mentioned.

The fact that we are asked to cease all selling (work) means that it is during the day and neither at dawn nor at ishaa. These times are for our rest, so practically we cannot hold a congregational salaat.

According to the understanding that "wustaa" means middle, which salaat would be "wustaa" on the day of gathering (dawn, sunset, ishaa and jum3a)?

stefan_rosty

Peace Stefan,

022.061
YUSUFALI That is because Allah merges night into day, and He merges day into night, and verily it is Allah Who hears and sees (all things).
PICKTHAL That is because Allah maketh the night to pass into the day and maketh the day to pass into the night, and because Allah is Hearer, Seer.
SHAKIR That is because Allah causes the night to enter into the day and causes the day to enter into the night, and because Allah is Hearing, Seeing.
KHALIFA It is a fact that GOD merges the night into the day, and merges the day into the night, and that GOD is Hearer, Seer.

The only way that "night" can be merged into daylight and daylight can be merged into "night" is if "night" starts at sunset and ends after daybreak. So what we call in Arabic "layl" is actually equivalent to what is in English "twilight-night-twilight".

This is why when the god wants to point out the dark part of the "layl", he uses the term "ghasak al-layl" (the dark part of the "twilight-night-twilight", i.e. the middle part that we call in English "night&quot

Persist in the learning connection at the rubbing of the sun (i.e. at sunset) until the dark part of the "twilight-night-twilight" and the intense reading at daybreak, indeed the intense reading at daybreak is witnessed.

The translation that you provided is not correct. It doesn't make sense to say "until the dipping of the sun; until the darkness of the night". I think that what you mean is "from the dipping of the sun; until the darkness of the night". As explained above, this is the time in the great reading decribed as "'isha". If you look at all the occurences of the word "wusta" and its derivatives, you will see that it means "balanced". So this is an attribute that we should maintain, not an additional timing.

As a side note, you really ought to translate the word "quran" in 1778. The expression "the Quran at dawn" doesn't make any sense.

Peace,

Ayman

Thou shall hold the contact-method until the dipping of the sun; until the darkness of the night; and the Quran at dawn, the Quran at dawn has been witnessed.1778

http//www.openburhan.net/ob.php?sid=17&vid=78

And from the night you shall reflect upon it additionally for yourself, perhaps your Lord would grant you to a high rank. 1779

http//www.openburhan.net/ob.php?sid=17&vid=79

three periods of time are described

first salat (&#1604 until ?( )? second salat (&#1609 until ?( )? third salat ?( )?

or ( &#1616 then ( ) then ( &#1609 then ( ) then ( &#1569 then ( )

and the cycle goes on .

and ( ) is after ( ) which is within ( ) the near part of the night or the early night