Can we finally answer the question of timing of salaat and sawm?

stefan_rosty

The fact that we are asked to cease all selling (work) means that it is during the day and neither at dawn nor at ishaa. These times are for our rest, so practically we cannot hold a congregational salaat.

According to the understanding that "wustaa" means middle, which salaat would be "wustaa" on the day of gathering (dawn, sunset, ishaa and jum3a)?

i think the day is for work and sunset is for salat.

when the people were called to salat at the time of the gathering maybe at sunset, some traders were making money from trades, because other traders are holding salat.

thats why they were told to drop their selling

and it could be at the sunset

AlFajr

Peace to all.

The ritual I detailed was a product of my researches as a faithful quraan alone muslim.
The truth is that people will spend countless hours trying to uncover the proper way of performing salaat according to the Quraan. Unfortunately they will never find it.
The Quraan is not an educational text, meaning there is nothing in the Quraan which is truly new. It's all about clarifying the mistakes of the past communities and explaining the nature of Allah. So you will never find a detailed explanation of Salaat, nor how to give Zakaat, or even the process of becoming a Muslim (shahaadah).
The Quraan is a wonderful and edifying scripture. It must however take its place alongside the other scritpures of Allah.
Have a wonderful day,
Talib ben Abraham

Agreed, peace

LatifAbdullah

I'm going to try and address the question, however it was a little vague so if I don't please clarify exactly what your'e asking.

The arabic in that verse Fs'ali Al-Ladhna Yaqra'na Al-Kitba Min Qablika literally translates "contact those who read/recite of the scripture from before you." By examing the arabic grammar and tense the the term qablika (before) is emphasizing al kitaba (the book). So it's not refering to the people from before the prophet/apostle Mustafa Muhammad Al Amin, who of course would all be dead, its referring to consulting to contemporary people who read the earlier scriptures.
Now in regards to the earlier scriptures not existing, we have clear historical and quraanic evidence they did.

From the Quraan
Allah ta'Ala actually gives us a quote from one of the earlier scriptures in Al Quraan.

Wa Laqad Katabn F Az-Zubri Min Badi Adh-Dhikri 'Anna Al-'Ara Yarithuh Ibdiya A-lina
"And We have already written in the Psalms (Al Zubuwr) after the reminder that 'the righteous will inherit the earth'.?

We know from the Quraan, that the Zubuwr was given to the Prophet/Apostle Dawud ibn Yishay(Qur 4163) and the quote being referenced is Psalms 2739

"The righteous shall inherit the earth, and dwell therein for ever."

So we know atleast one book which was in existence contemporary to the Prophet Muhammad was consultable. We still actually have that text today for consultation.

So atleast in one sense could muhammad have consulted those who read Az Zubuwr (the psalms for further information).

This allows us to address a more pertinent question. That being was the Torah that was referenced in the Quraan the same Torah as given to Moses and Aaron.
As adherents of the Quraan, we all can atleast that a base line opinion we all hold is that whatever Allah has told us in the Quraan is the truth beyond doubt. Whenever Allah makes a statement, we accept it as literal fact.
We also accept that Allah is Al Haqq, the 52nd of the 99+1 attributes (al Asma wa Husna) that stems from the arabic root haqqa meaning factual, truthful beyond doubt, reality. So therefore Allah does not lie. We also accept that Allah is also Al Rashiyd, the 98th of the 99+1 attributes (al asma wal husna) that stems from the arabic root rashada which means rightly guided, clearly directed.
I make that point to stress this point Allah tells the yahudiya (mistranslated jews) to follow a Quraan contemporary to Muhammad's time, and an injiyl contemporary to Muhammad's time.
Allah tells the Muhammad about the yahudiya

Wa Kayfa Yuakkimnaka Wa Indahumu At-Tawratu Fh ukmu Allhi Thumma Yatawallawna Min Badi Dhlika Wa M 'l'ika Bil-Mu'uminna
And how do they make you a judge and they have the Taurat wherein is Allah's judgment? Yet they turn back after that, and these are not the believers. Qur 543

The same Torah (Al Tawraat) that Allah says one verse later

'Inn 'Anzaln At-Tawrata Fh Hud?an Wa Nrun Yakumu Bih An-Nabyna Al-Ladhna 'Aslam Lilladhna Hd Wa Ar-Rabbnyna Wa Al-'Abru Bim Astufi? Min Kitbi Allhi Wa Kn `Alayhi Shuhad'a Fal Takhshaw An-Nsa Wa Akhshawn Wa L Tashtar Bi'yt Thamanan Qallan Wa Man Lam Yakum Bim 'Anzala Allhu Fa'l'ika Humu Al-Kfirna
Surely We revealed the Taurat in which is guidance and light; with it the prophets who submitted themselves (to Allah) judged (matters) for those who were Jews, and the masters of Divine knowledge and the doctors, because they were required to guard (part) of the Book of Allah, and they were witnesses thereof; therefore fear not the people and fear Me, and do not take a small price for My communications; and whoever did not judge by what Allah revealed, those are they that are the unbelievers. (Qur 544)

and then Allah also gives us a reference point to which Torah he was speaking of when he says
Wa Katabn Alayhim Fh 'Anna An-Nafsa Bin-Nafsi Wa Al-Ayna Bil-`Ayni Wa Al-'Anfa Bil-'Anfi Wa Al-'Udhuna Bil-'Udhuni Wa As-Sinna Bis-Sinni...
And We prescribed to them in it that life is for life, and eye for eye, and nose for nose, and ear for ear, and tooth for tooth, and (that there is) reprisal in wounds... (Qur 545)

(where he refernces Deut 1921 Show no pity life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth)

and then instructs them, and remember all of this contemporary to the prophet/apostle Mustafa Muhammad Al Amin, to
Qul Y 'Ahla Al-Kitbi Lastum `Al? Shay'in att? Tuqm At-Tawrata Wa Al-'Injla Wa M 'Unzila 'Ilaykum Min Rabbikum
literal translation "Tell them this- 'O people of the book you have nothing unless you stand to The Torah and the Injiyl and what here is revealed to them from their Sustainer." (Qur 56

So the reason why I pointed out Allah as Al Haqq wa Al Rashiyd is that Allah telling Muhammad to tell the the people of the book to follow the Torah and the Injiyl means they must still have been in existence at least until 610 ad when the Quran was revealed. If not that makes Allah a liar telling people to follow books that no longer exist and not a right guide of he's attempting to guide people to following a book which does not exist.

This is where science and history come into play. Thanks to the science of archaeology, or the study of materials relating to the past, we can test that claim. All we need to do is set up an experiment. Using 610 as a base date for which to anchor our experiment all we need to do is check the archaeological record for two possibilities

a) did torahs exost before and after 610 ad
b) do the torahs that existed before 610 ad correlate to the Torahs that existed after 610 ad.

Well we can satisfy point A relatively quickly. We an refer to the Septuagint, the Torah translated into Greek around 400 B.C. The Dead Sea Scrolls were from about 100 B.C. to after the time of Christ, and we can compare them with our Bibles today. Aramaic Targums are translations made around the time of Jesus. The Dead Sea Scrolls are about 95,000 fragments from 867 manuscripts of the Old Testament and other writings. About 1/3 of the Dead Sea scrolls are manuscripts of the Old Testament.
Infact a cataloguing of the dead sea scroll texts shows us that the Dead Sea Scrolls can be divided into two categories?biblical and non-biblical. Fragments of every book of the Old Testament (Hebrew canon) have been discovered, except for the book of Esther. Qumran and the scrolls give us a true indicator because we know the site was abandoned in 68 ad after a siege by the romans. Based on various dating methods, including carbon 14, paleographic and scribal, the Dead Sea Scrolls were written during the period from about 200 B.C. to 68 A.D. Many crucial biblical manuscripts (such as Psalm 22, Isaiah 53 and Isaiah 61) date to at least 100 B.C. As such, the Dead Sea Scrolls have revolutionized textual criticism of the Old Testament.
The amazing thing about the scrolls is that every text of the Torah found, while having minor differences, actually agrees with the Torah we have now(the masoretic text). also the septuagint we have copies of it from ancient times as well as modern times to examine it and while having neglible differences still agrees with the Torah we have now, satisfying point B.
So the reality for which most Muslims want to hide from but true students of the Quraan can adhere to is that there is original Torah material in the Torah possessed by the jews of atleast Muhammad's time, that correspond to the Troahs we have now, for which Muhammad could have reasonably sought consultation from.
It is only those who seek to alter or rewrite history due to blind faith to unprovable theories that will fight that fact.
In reference to what part of the Torah still in existance is Mosaic, we have that portion. That portion was kept by the descedants of the prophet/apostle Aaron and honored by the children of israel until the rebellion of the 10 northern tribes from Judah (and benjamin) in 915 ad. The Northern kingdom produced its own Torah to justify its religious innovations called the E text. The southern Judahites produced their own Torah to justify their religious observance as well called the J text. The descendants of Aaron called the Aaronids, so called because they were descended from the prophet/apostle Aharown/Haruwn/Aaron preserved the true Torah as they always had. Later under the apostle Uzair/Ezraa/Ezra were the 3 texts plus the deuteronomistic histories wedded together into one text now referred to as the pentateuch. Once we unwind the srciptural cord, we very clearly can decipher the P text from the other texts and it stands on its own. It contains the true law codes given by Allah ta'Ala to the Prophet/apostle Mosheh/Muwsa/Moses and recorded by Aaron.
All of the above is referenced by such books as "Who Wrote The Bible" by Richard Freeman.
However Bigmo you are wrong when you posted this at Internet Infidels Discussion Board on september 23, 2007 at 130 pm-

"The Torah and Gospel are revelations. The problem is that men do not know how to shut up. There is a lot of information there in some of these scriptures. But they are all emphasizing a common theme. Its not only in Judaism, Christianity or Islam, but all religions have similar sources but people after their founders talk too much. God is silent."

The gospels we have now are not revelations but have proven to be religious texts composed by various christian communities Matthew (written 65 a.d), Mark (written 41 a.d.), Luke (written 58 a.d.), and John (written 98 a.d.). They are texts written from various source texts, which 2 (the Quelle document(the real injiyl) and the Signs gospel) have been documented assuch and are the basis for the Synoptic gospels. Only the gospel of John reveals no source text quoting, but a consistent work from start to finish. That is because it was written by Yowkhanan/Yuhanna/John while in prison on the island of Patmos in 96-100 ad to service the believers in Messiah which were in the greek diaspora.

So sorry Bigmo, you are wrong.

Peace to all,
Latif Abdullah

Bigmo