Sujud
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Salaam all,
If I say stand up, do I have to tell you stand up on your feet? Unless stand up can be done differntly (has nothing to do with the feet) or has another meaning.
If "prostarate" means put your forhead on the ground, and you hear prostrate to the chin, either
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You prostrate with your forehead AND chin to the ground, which is impossible (unless you remove your nose); or
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Prostrate /prostrate to the chin has a different meaning
That is a wrong premise. Words are conceptual. They carry the whole range of meanings including the abstract and the concrete. The recorded meanings of Sujood include bowing your head, putting your head on the ground, the tree with the branches bowing because of the heavy load of leaves as well as any form of revealing evidence of submitting to something more powerful. There is no primary or secondary meaning as Navid and probably Ayman mentioned. The whole range of the conceptual meaning applies and is binding unless the context decides otherwise.
So, when God says "La Tasjudoo lilshamsi= Do not perform Sujood to the sun". He was clearly not saying do not take a suntan, but by other means of showing it and that includes bowing, lowering their heads or putting their foreheads to the ground.
When God says "The sun and the moon do sujood" then it is understood within the context of how the sun and moon can show evidence of submission to God and not necessarily through putting their heads on the ground.
When God tells humans to do Sujood to Him, then it covers all the aspects of the Sujood, including putting their foreheads on the floor.
Wehn God says that they fall to the chins prostrating then it has to be understood within that context. What could that be
1- Lower their heads so that their chins touch their chests.
2- in the process of prostrating to the ground, they lowered their chins as they bowed their heads on their way to the ground.
3- Any other way that corresponds to the conceptual meaning and that is appropriate to the context or the idiomatic use of the language of the time.So, what is the conclusion? No one of you can take an aya and impose the use of Sujood in it and then impose that meaning to the other Ayat that do not have te same context to impose that limitation. Therefore when God uses Sujood, then it covers and binds us to all the meanings including put our forehead on the ground, unless there is a limitation from the context of the sentence or the presence of a prohibition of such act in the Qur'an.
Take care all.
Hussein
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peace all,
A few points based on my studies so far...
The core meaning of "sujud" is to acknowledge / give recognition (in a positive or subservient manner). This is based on my review of Classical Arabic meanings and every usage in AQ.
Clearly, in AQ, humans as well as inanimate objects can acknowledge / give recognition / "sujud", however humans have more avenues with which to show this than say a planet we can express it verbally, show it physically in a bow/prostration or by mindset or in deeds. A planet can only really demonstrate it in mindset/deeds, i.e. in all its actions it follows the rules given to it by God, it truly acknowledges / gives recognition, it submits.
For those who see the regular/timed "salat" as a ritual prayer, chapter 107 clearly demonstrates mindset/deeds > physical display. This is important.
Thus if someone wishes to learn about "sujud", what should a sincere muslim teach them first and foremost? Is it the correct manner in which to bow down where to position their head their arms etc or its deeper mental/submissive aspect?
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Salaam all
There is nothing called core meaning or primary meaning. There is a concept that the meaning holds and the concept spans both the mental and physical. So, one cannot separate them and ask this question.
For those who see the regular/timed "salat" as a ritual prayer, chapter 107 clearly demonstrates mindset/deeds > physical display. This is important.
Thus if someone wishes to learn about "sujud", what should a sincere muslim teach them first and foremost? Is it the correct manner in which to bow down where to position their head their arms etc or its deeper mental/submissive aspect?
And there are other Ayat that point to physical aspect more. So, the answer is the need to do both, not do one and forget the other and not concentrate on one and ignore the other. How does one do the physical Sujood? the way the messenger did it and if one cannot because of physical or mental inability or because of lack of know how then he or she will still need to do Sujood within their physical and mental capabilities.
Take care all.
Hussein
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peace hlatif,
Instead of "core" read "concept" if you prefer. I have read the phrase "primary signification" in Lane. However what it is called or even if this exists or not is moot for me, fact is, every occurrence I have studied including all Classical Arabic meanings I've read conform to the "core" meaning I gave.
And there are other Ayat that point to physical aspect more.
I think I know what you mean but your usage of "more" is ambiguous. Your point does not equate to the point I made.
More correctly, you probably mean there are some ayatin/signs that imply a physical sjd but NONE that imply physical > mindset/deeds. If anything other than this, please clarify.
And please dont embellish upon what I say or construct a strawman to make a point. If one says mental > physical, this clearly does not mean "physical" does not exist.
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I don't understand why this is still an issue? Is this a joke?
God said "sujud" just for the sake of prostrating for fun? The very purpose of the sujud is to show you are obeying/acknowledging. All we are saying is if you do physical sujud without actually obeying, the physicality of it means nothing. This is just fact. There shouldn't be a debate about this, it's very simple. Let's all try to use the energy to try to focus on more important issues.
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I don't understand why this is still an issue? Is this a joke?
God said "sujud" just for the sake of prostrating for fun? The very purpose of the sujud is to show you are obeying/acknowledging. All we are saying is if you do physical sujud without actually obeying, the physicality of it means nothing. This is just fact. There shouldn't be a debate about this, it's very simple. Let's all try to use the energy to try to focus on more important issues.
Peace Navid,
Thank you, this is all that needed to be said and you said it very well.
Peace,
Ayman
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and my point is that it is unacceptable, linguistically and in the Qur'an to say I make mental Sujood and therefore I do not neet to make physical sujood.
Actually, the act of refusing to do physical Sujood suggests that the mental sujood does not actually exist.
Hussein
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and my point is that it is unacceptable, linguistically and in the Qur'an to say I make mental Sujood and therefore I do not neet to make physical sujood.
Why is it unacceptable? Does God not knows our thoughts/beliefs? Surely, He doesn't need us to make an empty physical gesture to show we believe in Him, when He already knows we believe in Him.
Actually, the act of refusing to do physical Sujood suggests that the mental sujood does not actually exist.
Hussein
Um, not if you actually are mentally obeying and acknowledging? It's the other way around, brother. This shows that you put more emphasis on the physical aspect.
Peace all
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Throughout ancient history and current, bowing and prostrating has always been an act of respect or mercy towards kings, queens, emperors, mighty men and man-made idols.
If rukoo and sujood does not mean bow and prostrate respectively as per some, then what are the actual Arabic words for them?
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Navid,
You cannot be mentally obeying and then have an order for something that cannot be excluded from being physical and then say No, I will not do the physical because my brain is obeying. Why did your brain not obey at least for the possibility of physical.
Hussein
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Navid,
You cannot be mentally obeying and then have an order for something that cannot be excluded from being physical and then say No, I will not do the physical because my brain is obeying. Why did your brain not obey at least for the possibility of physical.
Hussein
salam
by that logic, we should follow every possible meaning of every word of the Quran. i do not think this makes any sense.
salam
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Throughout ancient history and current, bowing and prostrating has always been an act of respect or mercy towards kings, queens, emperors, mighty men and man-made idols.
If rukoo and sujood does not mean bow and prostrate respectively as per some, then what are the actual Arabic words for them?
salam
it is possible that the words, in history books, we have understood as physical bowing and prostrating are also metaphorical. also, to follow our forefathers in wrongdoing is no excuse in front of Allah.
salam
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You actually should unless the range of the meaning is limited by the context. One can also exclude part of the range of the meaning if that part contradicts a clear and specific statement in the Qur'an. The alternative is the totally bias driven method of saying this is metaphorical and this is literal without clear criteria. That alternative is unacceptable because it is basically wishy washy with no objective criteria.
Hussein
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You actually should unless the range of the meaning is limited by the context. One can also exclude part of the range of the meaning if that part contradicts a clear and specific statement in the Qur'an. The alternative is the totally bias driven method of saying this is metaphorical and this is literal without clear criteria. That alternative is unacceptable because it is basically wishy washy with no objective criteria.
Hussein
salam
so do you do all the following whenever Allah says sujood?
- lower your heads so that your chin touches your chest
- in the process of prostrating to the ground, lowered your chin as you bow your head on the way to the ground.
- touch your chin to the ground whilst in prostrating
salam
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Any geniuses in Arabic language who could answer the following
If rukoo and sujood does not mean bow and prostrate respectively as per some, then what are the actual Arabic words for them? In other words, are there any other Arabic words for bow and prostrate besides the one and only rukoo and sujood?
Peace!
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Yes, that may be a possibility, but one cannot negate the fact that people did and still do bow and prostrate to their elders, idols and pharaohs out of respect and forgiveness. I don't think bowing, prostrating or even kneeling down out of respect or mercy is a wrongdoing, but perhaps an unecessary or forced act. I personally don't see any reason to act as such. What I'm looking for is this
If rukoo and sujood does not mean bow and prostrate respectively as per some, then what are the actual Arabic words for them?
Peace!
salam
from my understanding of this thread, possible meanings are to humble oneself and to hear and obey. they are, at the very least, excellent candidates for meanings of ruku and sujood.
salam
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putting your chin on the ground is not part of the range of the meaning of Sujood as documented in the dictionaries. The others are possible and I do them.
hussein
salam
so which dictionaries do you follow?
just because another person's documentation of the meanings of words does not include a particular meaning, why do you exclude it when it is clearly a possible meaning?
salam
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