Sujud

[Samia]

salam sister

can you please clarify what you mean by it being an expression? do you mean that it does not involve a physical action>

salam

Salaam ignoramus

We have this expression in two different verses

• kharruu 3alal athqaani suj-jadan
• kharruu 3alal athqaani yabkuun (weeping)
  If we can imagine a prostration falling to the chin, what does "weeping falling to the chin" mean? That's why I believe "to the chin" is an expression and has nothing to do with the literal translation "fall to the chin". It could mean "fully", "intensely" "to the farhest extent"....

[ignoramus]

Salaam ignoramus

We have this expression in two different verses

• kharruu 3alal athqaani suj-jadan
• kharruu 3alal athqaani yabkuun (weeping)
  If we can imagine a prostration falling to the chin, what does "weeping falling to the chin" mean? That's why I believe "to the chin" is an expression and has nothing to do with the literal translation "fall to the chin". It could mean "fully", "intensely" "to the farhest extent"....

salam sister

please forgive me for labouring the point, but i am still not clear if your are saying whether or not this expression does not involve any physical action.

sorry for being pedantic!

thank you and salam

[Wakas]

peace Samia,

I wonder why we stop at verse 17107 and not contiue two more verses where we have it explained

108 And they "Glory to our Lord! The promise of our Lord must be fulfilled
109 And they fall down to their chins weeping and it increases their "humility" ,

Thanks for highlighting this point sister.

[ignoramus]

peace Samia,

Thanks for highlighting this point sister.

salam brother Wakas

please excuse my ignorance, but from the english, there is no reason why this suggests a non-physical sujood. it is possible to cry and fall prostrate physically at the same time.

perhaps i am misunderstanding something?

thank you.

salam

[unknownuser]

Who said that it is impossible to physically fall in prostration to the chin?
Hello Ayman,

Well I do recall that some members here were discussing this subject some time ago but that is not the crux of the subject.

Peace!

[Leoxyz]

Dear
Sujood has both meanings
-Submission to authority mentally
-To bend in front of authority to show practical sign.(For human beings)
The classical Arabic dictionaries show it as this

• ( 3 / 204)

• ( 1 / 2022)
  . - ( 1 / 2022)
  . .

(&#1583 . . . .

All three Dictionaries agree that "Sajada" means
1Bending
2Lowering the body
3To show one's submission (tadhallul)

Tajul aroos specifically mentions that "sujudusalat" means
"Placing the Forehead on the ground"

Raghib explains that Sujud is of two types
1Sujud bi Ikhtiyaar = Voluntary sujud which is for human beings
2Sujud u Taskhir = Involuntary sujud (under compulsion = bound to law of nature ) and it is for all types of creatures.His exact version is as below;

• ( &#1569 } { } {

[Wakas]

peace i,

I am not saying physically falling to the chin weeping is not possible.

We have this expression in two different verses

• kharruu 3alal athqaani suj-jadan
• kharruu 3alal athqaani yabkuun (weeping)

For me, I think the point was in the phrase usage. Used again, but without the "suj-jadan". If it means physically prostrate, then it is redundant to add it after you say "fall to the chin".

For me, the phrase "kharruu 3alal athqaani" is a strong candidate for an idiomatic expression considering in 17107 one would not be expected to physically fall to the chin whenever AQ was recited to them. It more likely expresses swiftly/intensely reacting.

It would be interesting to see if any Classical Arabic dictionaries mention this idiomatic expression and if not, that implies it was regarded as physical, but if this is so is this position esteemed amongst traditional Muslims or mentioned in tradition?

I would like to point out though, for me, this discussion is academic, I do not mind if someone wishes to do the above physically, as long as one appreciates the mental > physical aspect.

[Navid]

I would like to point out though, for me, this discussion is academic, I do not mind if someone wishes to do the above physically, as long as one appreciates the mental > physical aspect.

I agree

[ignoramus]

peace i,

I am not saying physically falling to the chin weeping is not possible.

For me, I think the point was in the phrase usage. Used again, but without the "suj-jadan". If it means physically prostrate, then it is redundant to add it after you say "fall to the chin".

For me, the phrase "kharruu 3alal athqaani" is a strong candidate for an idiomatic expression considering in 17107 one would not be expected to physically fall to the chin whenever AQ was recited to them. It more likely expresses swiftly/intensely reacting.

It would be interesting to see if any Classical Arabic dictionaries mention this idiomatic expression and if not, that implies it was regarded as physical, but if this is so is this position esteemed amongst traditional Muslims or mentioned in tradition?

I would like to point out though, for me, this discussion is academic, I do not mind if someone wishes to do the above physically, as long as one appreciates the mental > physical aspect.

salam brother Wakas

thank you for the clarification.

i think i may still be missing an important but subtle point in the argument. however, when i read 17107-17109 i do not see a problem of redundancy.

i completely agree that 17107 refers to a reaction as you described, although i can see an individual manifesting such a reaction with a physical protration is possible and does not degrade the meaning in any way.

i also completely agree that the mental component of sujood is critical, but i still do not see that when God says sujood, a directive to prostrate physically is necessarily precluded.

the purpose of sujood, i do not think is in dispute. however, the question remains whether God specifically means physically prostrate in other places of the Quran (at least when specifically referring to salat). this question may be rather more than academic.

salam

[unknownuser]

Sujood has both meanings
-Submission to authority mentally
-To bend in front of authority to show practical sign.(For human beings)
The classical Arabic dictionaries show it as this

All three Dictionaries agree that "Sajada" means
1Bending
2Lowering the body
3To show one's submission (tadhallul)

Tajul aroos specifically mentions that "sujudusalat" means
"Placing the Forehead on the ground"

Raghib explains that Sujud is of two types
1Sujud bi Ikhtiyaar = Voluntary sujud which is for human beings
2Sujud u Taskhir = Involuntary sujud (under compulsion = bound to law of nature ) and it is for all types of creatures.His exact version is as below;
Leo, I've no skirmishes there for what it means. It's been going on for eons. My beef is with claims alleging "holy authority or authorities" and ancient dogmatic religious belief systems. FYI, I don't have a "religious god".

[Wakas]

peace i,

You are right in the sense that my replies do not preclude physical prostration. I tend to weigh and consider the options and go with what is strongest. To me, falling to the chin whenever AQ is read to you is highly unlikely to be meant.

It is also noteworthy that there is no alternative given if one cannot manage a physical prostration in AQ, even though it mentions physical inability with other things such as sawm/abstaining/fasting and even participating in the hajj/conference.

[Samia]

salam brother Wakas

thank you for the clarification.

i think i may still be missing an important but subtle point in the argument. however, when i read 17107-17109 i do not see a problem of redundancy.

i completely agree that 17107 refers to a reaction as you described, although i can see an individual manifesting such a reaction with a physical protration is possible and does not degrade the meaning in any way.

i also completely agree that the mental component of sujood is critical, but i still do not see that when God says sujood, a directive to prostrate physically is necessarily precluded.

the purpose of sujood, i do not think is in dispute. however, the question remains whether God specifically means physically prostrate in other places of the Quran (at least when specifically referring to salat). this question may be rather more than academic.

salam

Salaam

I think we are talking about two different things you about "sujuud" me about "kharruu ilaal athqaani"
I was not discussing whether sujuud is physical or not, but whether "kharruu ilal athqaan" means to the chins or is just an expression. I qouted another verse where this expression is followed by "weeping" which does not require any specific movement or mobility. But in agreement with wakas post, I also was not aiming at finding whether sujuud is physical or not but was just helping pave the way towards more and \or better understanding

[ignoramus]

Salaam

I think we are talking about two different things you about "sujuud" me about "kharruu ilaal athqaani"
I was not discussing whether sujuud is physical or not, but whether "kharruu ilal athqaan" means to the chins or is just an expression. I qouted another verse where this expression is followed by "weeping" which does not require any specific movement or mobility. But in agreement with wakas post, I also was not aiming at finding whether sujuud is physical or not but was just helping pave the way towards more and \or better understanding

salam sister

thank you very much for clearing that up. unfortunately my little brain is not very fast; brickwall sorry for taking so long to understand.

salm

[Leoxyz]

salam sister

thank you very much for clearing that up. unfortunately my little brain is not very fast; brickwall sorry for taking so long to understand.

salm

you are not the only one in this respect.I am with you in this matter.
We are not as knowledgeful as this progeny is .

Mecca was not present at the time of revelation of Quran
Masjidul Haram was not present at the time of revelation of Quran.

Can you understand these quoted PEARLS ??
I think your answer will be NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.

[ignoramus]

you are not the only one in this respect.I am with you in this matter.
We are not as knowledgeful as this progeny is .Can you understand these quoted PEARLS ??
I think your answer will be NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.

salam brother or sister

i was not being sarcastic, so please do not imply that i was. my post is clear, and i genuinely did not understand sister Samia point until she clarified, and i am grateful to her.

thank you.

salam

[Leoxyz]

salam brother or sister

i was not being sarcastic, so please do not imply that i was. my post is clear, and i genuinely did not understand sister Samia point until she clarified, and i am grateful to her.

thank you.

salam

I also really do not understand ,not kidding

[warner]

Salaam Samia

In the verses 258, 4154, 7161,12100, 1648,17107, 1958, 2070,2564, 3215, 4829 the Quran uses sujjadan instead of sjud/sajado etc.

What is sujjadan ?

[Samia]

Salaam Samia

In the verses 258, 4154, 7161,12100, 1648,17107, 1958, 2070,2564, 3215, 4829 the Quran uses sujjadan instead of sjud/sajado etc.

What is sujjadan ?

Salaam warner

saajiduun, sujuud (2125 and 2226) and sujjadan are all plurals of saajid.
Other examples
3aalim 3ulamaa' and 3aalimuun
nabi anbiyaa'; nabiyyuun
From the difference in the meaning between 3aalimuun and 3ulamaa' (and perhaps nabiyyun and anbiyaa&#039 there might be a difference in the meaning between the three plurals of saajid, but I have not investigated that yet.

[Raj-ah]

A very interesting read this was up to now; full of knowldge.
In this post I would just quote some of interesting sayings of the posters which will help us to arrive at a conclusion.
But before this I just want to clarify that "SOME" "BRAINS" behind FM realy think that there is no need of SALAT being performed physically and SALAT is only "FARD" in Morning and Night 2 times. Regarding the argument that Physical SALAT without MEntal SALAT is NO SALAT is a CHILDISH argument, as I have explained it before and all of us agree it is not Possible to perform SALAT physicaly when you are NOT MENTALLY prepared.

Edip

The moment I joined the forums of free-minds.org and posted the first message about the FIVE PROJECTS (not five prayers!) we were working on, my faith was questioned by several people and I was immediately challenged regarding my opinion on SALAT. On any subject I wrote, I was harassed and demanded to indulge in their favorite argument. It seems that several people were so excited from freeing their minds and their bodies from performing a ritual; they just wanted to PROHIBIT such a ritual in the name of God. According to these people, anyone disagrees with their INTERPRETATION, INFERENCES and SPECULATIONS on some Quranic verses or words, or someone prays differently, he or she must be a MUSHRIK or DISBELIEVER. According to them I should not spend much time to think and study their claims. They did not even recognize a right for me to spend time on anything else in my life. I was expected either to reject their position IMMEDIATELY or accept IMMEDIATELY. Studying their argument was either a luxury, or evasion of absolute truth! I should have had acted reflexively, with a knee-jerk reaction, perhaps like they have done it

Edip

Turning back to present topic?. The same extremism or desire for schism is at work among some members of free-minds. A group of people come to believe and practice a particular issue differently than others; and they start turn that issue to a sales-pitch for their cult or group. They develop and sharpen their arguments and use it like a holy sword. They might have some good points, they might be even totally correct; but they start abusing their newly discovered DIFFERENCE by exaggerating the issue and by making it a categorical measure of faith. It is curious dynamic that comes into play in every new religious or political group. Desire to create a separate identity overwhelm their rational thinking and blinds them to see the common values. Soon after Jesus, Paul the Pharisee distorted many facts to divorce Jesus' message from of Moses. Soon after Jesus departure the followers "of the Pharisee son of Pharisee" started calling themselves Christians. This divisive pattern is common in almost all groups that advocate a particular religion, sect, or cult.

hlatif

Actually, the act of refusing to do physical Sujood suggests that the mental sujood does not actually exist.
Hussein

ignoramus

salam

if sujood = hear and obey, why does Allah append to the chin?

Genteel

If rukoo and sujood does not mean bow and prostrate respectively as per some, then what are the actual Arabic words for them?

ignoramus

i see your point that "to the chin" might be used idiomatically, but that neither supports or damages the mental prostration theory. in my unlearned and lay opinion, it seems to suggest a physical act.

Tanveer

In my understanding, "sujud" in the context of salaat (4102), is both mental obedience to The God and physical prostration to The God, with the mental aspect being the more important one.

ayman

Who said that it is impossible to physically fall in prostration to the chin? You are the one who is saying this now. It is not impossible nor difficult. In fact it is quite easy. Anyone can try it. Just fall in prostration while looking forward and your chin will be the one touching the ground. Try it!

Peace,

Ayman

Ignoramus

please excuse my ignorance, but from the english, there is no reason why this suggests a non-physical sujood. it is possible to cry and fall prostrate physically at the same time.

Leoxyz

All three Dictionaries agree that "Sajada" means
1Bending
2Lowering the body
3To show one's submission (tadhallul)

Tajul aroos specifically mentions that "sujudusalat" means
"Placing the Forehead on the ground"

Wakas

peace i,
I am not saying physically falling to the chin weeping is not possible.

Wakas

I would like to point out though, for me, this discussion is academic, I do not mind if someone wishes to do the above physically, as long as one appreciates the mental > physical aspect.

Warner

In the verses 258, 4154, 7161,12100, 1648,17107, 1958, 2070,2564, 3215, 4829 the Quran uses sujjadan instead of sjud/sajado etc.

What is sujjadan ?

[warner]

Peace Warner,

Please bear with me, as I am in my infancy in understanding this...
As I see it thus far, sujud, as meaning the practice of being humble/submissive/obedient, can be applied in all instances.
So, yes, one can be humble/submissive/obedient while standing, sitting, and/or traversing.
One can (and should) be humble/submissive/obedient while glorifying and praising God.
One can be humble/submissive/obedient at night time.
Being humble/submissive/obedient can bring one to tears.

So, it is not a strict psychological view on the entire text. It is a view that this one term can be understood as a state of mind, and as all other states of mind, physical acts are usually taking place at the same time, ie, "...enter the gate with humility..." 258

Peace,
Tay

Salaam

Sorry Tay, all the questions were not directed to you but in general to the board and nor were they meant to be challenging but just to highlight the views and to clear my doubts.

I see standing , sitting and on your sides as separate actions as sujud and ruku in these verses.

Humans are not only emotional beings but physical too. We have a complex body to carry our much more complex brain around.

My opinion on sujud and ruku/rakaha is that mental and physical acts are interwound and it is the physical manifestation of the mental obedience, glorification and humility. In 1315 and 1648 all objects including inanimate objects do sujud with their shadows, In 2441 the Quran says about salat and glorification of all including bird with their wings spread. As humans we are given bodies and limbs which respond to our mental emotional status naturally and automatically. Our mental happiness, sorrow, love, hate, anger is physically complimented. When we love someone, we hold him/her in our arms, hug or kiss we physically bring out our mental affection. The same goes for happiness, smile and laughter. Your face and your body react to the emotion. Also weeping along with sujud; weeping is a natural and automatic physical action. I believe the physical prostration has to be natural too. If it is not we are pretending by uselessly physically falling down. The idiom ?go weak in /at the knees? is about an automatic reaction over come by emotions. In physical sujud the first action would be falling on the knees and then lowering the upper body possibly using the hand/palms for support. The extreme or the ultimate end of this action will be the chin touching the ground or maybe coming close to that.

The Quran does not identify salat and sujud together. The reference in 4102 on sujud can be after the salat (which maybe separate from salat) and the verse does not say sujud is part of salat either. I think Salat in the Quran is always standing.